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Something which SHOULD be a no-brainer... (Read 9599 times)
B-dawg
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Bring It On, Don...
Reply #15 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 7:45pm
 
And just FYI, I avoid hard liquor like the
Black Plague (yet ANOTHER point in favor
of my stance on a loving God..? Tongue)
I'll crack a beer before I read it though,
maybe. Let us hear how pointless, ill-
conceived and no-strategy-for-victory
wars are a sign of God's love...

B-man
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Lucy
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Re: Something which SHOULD be a no-brainer...
Reply #16 - Dec 11th, 2005 at 11:30am
 
BRendan is it? I haven't followed your postings over time so I'm probably biting off more than I know in saying anything in support of you ..(and for all I know you joyously play the devil's advocate just to rile folks!) ...but I sorta agree with your initial post. Haha it was a similar line of thought....one of several..that lead me to dump Christianity...and I started this at 11 or 12....why doesn't Christianity protect one from war?

It isn't so simple.

Religion exists to establish a particular kind of order in a society. Religion supports the status quo. As such, it is unable to support any real development of conciousness, which must entail a drastic shift. Once it changes, you can't go back to the way things were. Once it changes, you have no use for the old religion.

Christianity preaches conciousness change but practices sticking to the same old same old. Maybe that is why it is difficult to track down the authenticity of the mountain moving story, which sounds to me terribly familiar as I read a prototype for that in a child's book of a ...Thai is it ?...folk story. Without documentation...(and the building department around here doesn't work like that either!)...I find it hard to accept that this is a real story. I mean documentation I can check to verify, not just someone's word that it exists. It is bothersome in that I see it as some of the fluff that Christians throw out to convince themselves and others they have the real handle on reality.

It occurred to me this morning that , ironically, the Catholics may actually have a level of documentation for "miracles" that I am asking for. Before they turn someone into a saint, they have to documant the miracle done in the person's name. I'm not sure of the process, but it may be the kind of documentation that could be examined by an outside party. Would you accept that kind of information, Brendan?

I'm not advocating for the Catholics and their recent history does not support their claim to sanctity...either WW II or the priest abuse stuff. In WWII they were complicit with the Nazis. If Christianity worked, would the Nazis have ever arisen?..Even now, they let people who should have been protecting children off the hook. I just think their process for canonization might produce documentation.

I don't need inspiration. I can read fairy tales any time I choose. I don't need second-hand stories as "evidence". I need personal and clearly defined examples. I think that is all Bendan is asking for.
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Berserk
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Re: Something which SHOULD be a no-brainer...
Reply #17 - Dec 11th, 2005 at 11:31pm
 
B-man,

My political views on Iraq are inappropriate for this section of the site, but I'd be glad to discuss them with you in a private message.  What I intend to do here is address the religious problem of war from a perspective that might shed light on the difficulty of gaining a consensus through astral exploration.

Until around 200 AD, the church's official position on war was anti-militaristic. The church prohibited Christians from serving in the Roman army.   For the details of when and why this changed, see Jean-Michel Hornus, "It is not Lawful for Me to Fight."  This pacifism was based on Jesus' teaching:

e.g. "But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies.  Do good to those who hate you.  Pray for the happiness of those who curse you (Luke 6:27-28)."

Jesus was not a complete pacifist.  He encouraged His disciples to carry swords for personal protection (Luke 22:36-38).   But He prohibited aggressive use of violence.  Consider His reaction to Peter's swordplay in Gethsemane:  

"`Put away your sword,' Jesus told Peter.   `Those who use the sword will be killed by the sword (Matthew 26:52).'"

Most Christians don't confront the question of how Jesus' attitude squares with the God of the Old Testament who often sanctions war.  But after some progressive revelation, God's ultimate position on war is expressed by this vision or goal that He repeats through two prophets to ensure that Israel gets His point:

"The Lord will settle international disputes.  All nations will beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks.  All war will stop and military training will come to an end.  Come, people of Israel, let us walk in the light of the Lord (Isaiah 2:4-5 = Micah 4:3)."

Remember, the future is not fixed for a prophet.  Jesus' teaching on non-violence is merely intended to help implement God's program of ultimate harmony.  So in an ironic sense B-man's sarcastic question about why God needs soldiers and their weapons is quite to the point.  When it is not a case of self-defense, Jesus advocates the substitution of supernatural warfare employing weapons like patience, love, and prayer.  It is up to us to establish the right policies to bring Gpd's goal to fruition.

But, you say, what about all those divinely sanctioned battles in the Old Testament?  This is a good question.  It requires us to squarely face the meaning of progressive revelation.  

It must be recognized that most of ancient Israel's battles were struggles for survival.  Yet at times, Israel seems eager to claim a divine mandate to justify her bellicose ways.  To put this in perspective, it is helpful to grasp how Jesus and the prophets view God's Mosaic revelation.

The Law of Moses allows a man to dirorce his wife for any "indecency" (Deuteronomy 24:1) and later  rabbis deemed this to include burning dinner or having the gall to develop wrinkles with age.
But Jesus contradicts this by teaching that God wants couples to marry with the assumption that this means a lifelong commitment.   When asked to explain how He can contradict Moses like this, Jesus in effect replies that in Moses' day Israel was too culturally close-minded to hear what God really wanted to say (see Mark 10:4-5)!  Jesus would no doubt explain Israel's spiritual rationalization of excessive violence in a similar way.

Any reader of the Pentateuch will have the impression that all the ritual laws concerning sacrifices derive directly from God.  The Jerusalem Temple, of course, becomes the center of the cult of sacrifice.  So it is most shocking to hear the prophet Jeremiah contradict this assumption:

"This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel says: Away with your burnt offerings and sacrifices!  Eat them yourselves!   WHEN I LED YOUR ANCESTORS OUT OF EGYPT, I DID NOT SPEAK TO THEM OR COMMAND THEM CONCERNING BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES.  This is what I told them: `Obey me, and I will be your God, and you will be my people (Jeremiah 7:21-23)."

The implication here is stunning.   God never established Israel's sacrifice system, but once it evolved, God chose to work with it as a structural tool to achieve His top priority: to motivate people to love God with all their heart and mind and to love their neighbor as themselves: "On these two commandments hangs all the law (Matthew 22:40)."

I do accept the Bible as God's Word, but in a different sense than Christian Fundamentalists.  The Old Testament must be viewed through the lens of progressive revelation.  On  the issue of militarism, God's Word is initially silenced or distorted by the prevailing cultural attitudes and belief systems.  God must wait for the right time to penetrate this close-mindedness and get through what He always wanted to communicate.  

In my view, this has profound implications for the seeming impossibility of gaining a widespread consensus for astral exploration.   God so respects our free will that He allows our preconceptions and wishful thinking to distort our overview.   But then when we finally do acquire this consensus, our new knowledge will be all the more precious because it will be won with minimal divine interference.  

Don



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B-dawg
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Re: Something which SHOULD be a no-brainer...
Reply #18 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 6:02am
 
I'll agree that war is SOMETIMES necessary, Don. (For example, in the time of Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, the civilized people of the world had little other choice.)
But war should ALWAYS be the measure of last resort, Don. Look at what happened with Iraq, and the "War on Terror" in general.
There were alternatives... if nothing else, we could have used "James Bond"/"Black Ops" means to hunt down the terrorist leaders. (But I suppose using assassins is "dirty pool", eh? We had a tumor, sure. But instead of excising it with a scalpel, we chose a rusty axe. And now we're bleeding very badly, with VERY little success to show for our efforts... no to mention METASTASIS of the "tumor" in the form of so many young Muslim men wanting to join the "jihad" in Iraq, Zarkawi is having to turn some of them away..!)
This shouldn't have been called a "war" to begin with, Don. As awful a crime as 9/11 was, it was a CRIME, and should have been dealt with as such.
But it wasn't and SO...
-The perpetrators remain at large (and probably will remain so.)
-Iraq, cesspool that it was before we invaded, will become a NEW fundamentalist Muslim state when we finally come home with our tails between our legs (which we WILL sooner or later, Don.)
-The whole Middle East will become destabilized. Think oil is pricey now? Hoo-boy... you ain't seen NUTHIN' yet, folks...
If the "God" you worship ordained this fiasco, Don... then I don't want ANYTHING to do with him. End of discussion.
This war WAS NOT necessary, and all the Karl Roves and Ralph Reeds in the world ain't gonna change my mind on that. (Even if they take over politically and try to TORTURE people like me into a conversion... which they WOULD DO if they gained power, Don. That's the sort of people they are... MEDIEVALISTS.  Mark My Words.)
You figure out the rest...

B-man

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DocM
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Re: Something which SHOULD be a no-brainer...
Reply #19 - Dec 12th, 2005 at 9:38am
 
It is clear to me that there is no one entity that decries which war must be fought.  Each man contains the essence of God in him, whether he/she realizes it or not.  There is free will, and man appears pretty much left to himself/herself to make war and mistakes on the earth plane.  Yes, this is permitted; perhaps it shouldn't be - but we don't have the complete picture, so who are we to say?

M
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