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Newbie - Worry (Read 66424 times)
Touching Souls
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #60 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:56pm
 
ROFLMAO

...
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #61 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:02pm
 
Mmmmn, rice krispies....
Bob, that's what I call spiritual and intellectual nourishment.

It seems to me that there are a lot of "worriers" and "warriers" among us....I like Alysia's idea. Sit for 20 minutes and see what happens.

No attempt at "partnered exploration" or anything planned.  It would be interesting if all of us, every member of this board did that for the same time one day and just came back and reported exactly what happened for them in their own minds and hearts.

Might be an interesting thread.

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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #62 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 7:06am
 
Very interesting discussion. The clashing of reason versus faith.

I'm more of the opinion that you should start of by trusting YOURSELF. This is my first criteria.

You can then read anything, listen to anyone...but discriminate.  Trust yourself. Why ?

Because no one possesses the ULTIMATE TRUTH...NO ONE!

Being right OR wrong isn't the issue. IT IS TO LEARN!  So weither you took the "right" decision or the "bad" one...you will learn from it.

But we should always discriminate.  You wouldn't buy a house without inspecting it, or buy a car. Why should I trust someone who for money is going to tell me about myself ????

I resonate with Seth, not because of Seth per se. But many other sources corroborate what he said. And even then I will discriminate, accepting certain concept when I can validate them. Watch the movie "What the Bleep do we Know".

There are many exercices that Seth gave. So why not try them and find out for yourselves. Direct personal experience...Yep!

There is no such thing as a "path", there's only your own consciousness, your own experience, your own reality.  Play with it, it's all a game!
LOL

Games are for fun and play.  So lots of humour.

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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #63 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 11:08am
 
All I can say is that this year has been the most wonderful year in my life, because I did open up to experience and my guidance.

Reading a bunch of books and coming up with theories will get you no where, when it comes to truly discovering what wonders await us.

It is really sad that people who out of fear limit themselves, try to limit others.
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #64 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 11:53am
 
Recoverer,

I guess I misread you when you said "I say that what some of you say is untrue."  I thought you meant the channelers.  Actually, in none of my posts did I say any single personal experience is untrue.  I wouldn't say that.

What Don and I and others have said is that we should look for evidence, keep an open mind and a healthy dose of scepticism. 

Personal experience is where its at - I agree.  Only, everyone's experiences can't be right.  This politically correct stuff about - there is your truth and my truth and we should realize that we are all one so we have our own truths, rings hollow to me.

If someone says they were Oscar Wilde in a past life, or claims they have proof of the fate of our souls, they should be able to back it up with verifiable evidence.  Otherwise the sham flim flam artists get mixed in with real adepts who may have something to offer.

Peace,

Matthew
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #65 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:35pm
 
DocM:

Just because I rely on experience, this doesn't mean that I don't allow myself to be sceptical at times. In fact, it is because of my sceptical nature that I decided to stop relying on what others have to say, and instead figure things out through my own experience.

The thing is, I've been a spiritual searcher for a long time, and don't want to be taken in like I was before.

It is definitely possible to have experiences that lead you to certain conclusions. This is because when you seek experience, you open yourself to intuitive knowledge. Intuitive knowledge isn't the result of using thought to create an opinion. Intuitive knowledge is a direct cognition of what actually is true. I've had understandings that I couldn't possibly come up with by putting an assortment of thoughts together.

On the other hand, there are lots of people who have used thought in a supposedly critical way, yet they don't agree with each other when it comes to what's true. Each person will say, "I'm certain that MY viewpoint is correct, because I've done my best to be honest about it, and all the pieces fit together."

Real knowledge comes when instead of looking for ways to build up one's thought creating machine, one looks for ways to gain some freedom from it, so one can open up and see how things really are.

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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #66 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:55pm
 
Recoverer,

I agree with all you said.  The only reason for the intellectual discusisons and framework is to know tht we are talking about the same thing. 

I read what someone here wrote about the sights and feelings of Focus 27 and other focus levels.  Totally different than the experience has been described.  Was that person in the same state of consciousness even though he/she saw and experienced it vastly differently?

This is why experience is what we all seek, but in a reproducible framework that we can try to talk about and agree on. 

Matthew
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #67 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:56pm
 
Quote:
DocM:

Just because I rely on experience, this doesn't mean that I don't allow myself to be sceptical at times. In fact, it is because of my sceptical nature that I decided to stop relying on what others have to say, and instead figure things out through my own experience.

The thing is, I've been a spiritual searcher for a long time, and don't want to be taken in like I was before.

It is definitely possible to have experiences that lead you to certain conclusions. This is because when you seek experience, you open yourself to intuitive knowledge. Intuitive knowledge isn't the result of using thought to create an opinion. Intuitive knowledge is a direct cognition of what actually is true. I've had understandings that I couldn't possibly come up with by putting an assortment of thoughts together.

On the other hand, there are lots of people who have used thought in a supposedly critical way, yet they don't agree with each other when it comes to what's true. Each person will say, "I'm certain that MY viewpoint is correct, because I've done my best to be honest about it, and all the pieces fit together."

Real knowledge comes when instead of looking for ways to build up one's thought creating machine, one looks for ways to gain some freedom from it, so one can open up and see how things really are.



To rely on your own experience is good.

As for being a searcher for so long...I know, I've been there. Its funny but I started to find the answers when I started to trust myself. It's like placing an INTENT. Once its there, the answer will come, just be aware.

Real knowledge doesn't exist... we become AWARE with a KNOWING.  You are the only one who can acheive this, no one else can do it for you.

Your life will evolve as your INTENT and BELIEFS.  The information will come to you and YOU will know it, because it will resonate in you.

Awareness isn't stagnant, it is action. Always evolving, always expanding.

No need to worry... its a game!  Just play, have fun.

Isn't it neat?
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #68 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 1:25pm
 
Quote:
To rely on your own experience is good.

As for being a searcher for so long...I know, I've been there. Its funny but I started to find the answers when I started to trust myself. It's like placing an INTENT. Once its there, the answer will come, just be aware.

Real knowledge doesn't exist... we become AWARE with a KNOWING.  You are the only one who can acheive this, no one else can do it for you.

Your life will evolve as your INTENT and BELIEFS.  The information will come to you and YOU will know it, because it will resonate in you.

Awareness isn't stagnant, it is action. Always evolving, always expanding.

No need to worry... its a game!  Just play, have fun.

Isn't it neat?


Exactly.  Grin  And yes, it's very neat.

With Love, Mairlyn Wink
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #69 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 1:53pm
 
DocM:

I don't know the answer to the specific situation indicated.

I'm not currently involved with trying to map out the different realms. Rather, I'm trying to get over the limitations within my mind, and to become more in touch with my higher self and God.

I don't feel like I need to reconcile everybody else's experiences in order to do so. Occasionally I'll pick up on something by considering the experience of others. But the most important thing for me to do is to look within, and get rid of the thought patterns that get in my way of my seeing what is already the case. I've found that the more I do so, the more expansive, clear, and tuned in my experience becomes.

Perhaps after I finish more of my inner journey, I'll take a more comprehensive look at what other people find.

Quote:
Recoverer,

I agree with all you said.  The only reason for the intellectual discusisons and framework is to know tht we are talking about the same thing.  

I read what someone here wrote about the sights and feelings of Focus 27 and other focus levels.  Totally different than the experience has been described.  Was that person in the same state of consciousness even though he/she saw and experienced it vastly differently?

This is why experience is what we all seek, but in a reproducible framework that we can try to talk about and agree on.  

Matthew

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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #70 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 2:00pm
 
Gerald:

Ditto what Marilyn said. Especially the "isn't it neat" part.  Smiley
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #71 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 2:07pm
 
Good luck in your search, Recoverer.  I am on the same search, as are many here.  We may get to the same place eventually.


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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #72 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 2:10pm
 
Thank you Doc, and good luck to you.

I believe that we will get to the same place eventually.  Even if it takes a lot of time that's okay, because we'll still have lots of time on our hands after we do so.

Quote:
Good luck in your search, Recoverer.  I am on the same search, as are many here.  We may get to the same place eventually.


Doc M

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Reply #73 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 3:10pm
 
Matthew and I may disagree on certain esoteric insights.  But the orientation of his quest is clearly honest and well suited to pursuing the truth.   I do not dispute Recoverer's stress on personal experience.   We all need to transcend 2nd-hand spirituality.   But personal experience of the astral planes has yielded so many contradictory claims.  
Reason is essential to sort out the line between self-delusion and genuine insight.   Reason is also necessary to conceive future experiments that might solve some of the key impasses.  

As some of you know, I object to Seth because his reincarnational claims can be discredited where they can be historically  examined.   ACIM is more difficult to assess.   The ACIM course has been very helpful in some ways to those who have taken it.   But I have satisfied myself that its source is not who he claims to be--Jesus.   Given that deception, I'm suspicious of the rest of "His" metaphysical claims, especially its claims about our illusion of evil.   Like Seth, ACIM fails tests of historical verification.   By contrast, Howard Storm's NDE Jesus passes such tests in very subtle and impressive ways.   Critics might imagine that I simply find Storm more ideologically compatible.  In fact, Storm disturbs me too, especially his revelation that, though the doctrine of reincarnation is false, some souls DO nevertheless reincarnate on this earth.   But I am open to this  claim from Storm precisely because of the credibility established by verifications.  

I want to reprint my earlier post in the hope of gaining a considered response, especially to the Gordon Davis case summarized below.  I'm convinced that the elusive line between supernatural intervention and the latent potential of the mind should be a top priority for academic research.  Let me give 4 examples.

(1) When I was in my 20s, I would sometimes seek a "sign" of impending romance by trying to draw 4 consecutive hearts out of a shuffled deck.  This odd method actually seemed to work in the beginning!   (2) I also found that an old method used by St. Francis also initially worked for me--bibliomancy.   I would meditate on a question and then randomly open a Bible and react to the first verse as if it were divine guidance.   For example, I would blindly place my finger on a verse that promised intense romance and then experience an all-electric encounter not long after.

After a while, I became skeptical that these methods truly were effective.  So I practiced countless repetitions.   To my dismay, I found I could quite consistently draw 4 consecutive hearts from a shuffled deck.  But the "sign" that this method was supposed to prefigure no longer occurred.  Similarly, I could instantly place my finger at random on a Bible verse and find one that mirrored my exact thought (e.g. a grain).  I even demonstrated these odd abilities publicly--to my dismay as well the audience.  

Once a gorgeous female friend at Harvard used bibliomancy to determine whether she should divorce her hopelessly unfaithful husband.   In her mind it worked.  The verse she touched prohibited divorce.   I smiled and insisted, "Give me that Bible!"  I then instantly "fingered" a verse that encouraged her divorce.  She was stunned.  She smiled and asked, "Don, are you saying your divine guidance trumps mine?"  I replied, "No, Linda, I'm saying that I can do this at will and it means nothing in terms of divine guidance.   Follow instead your own heart and rational judgment in your decision about divorce."  

I know missionaries who felt called to Kenya because of bibliomancy.  Their finger fell on a biblical reference to "the Lion of Judah," a symbol of Kenya.  A real trap!  The big issue for me is the question of how these amusing psychic talents might be transformed into something truly useful for people.  

(3) When I conduct prayer meetings, I try to create a state of group consciousness that both maximizes the placebo effect and satisifies the biblical criteria for generating healing faith.  Occasionally, the results seem clearly supernatural.  But more often, I suspect, I've simply helped mobilize the sick person's immune system in ways that eliminate painful symptoms without eradicating the illness.

Even that can be a blessing.    But it leaves me frustrated.  I want to learn more about how to be a channel for complete divine healing!  The Bible hints that a vital partnership exists between the physician's craft and faith healing, but does not make it clear exactly how this works and can be enhanced (so Eccleasiasticus).  

(4) The most interesting case of possible confusion between psychic talent and genuine contact with spiritual dimensions is the Gordon Davis case in the 1920s.   Dr. Sam Soal visited a famous British medium, Blanche Cooper, in the hope of contacting his recently deceased brother.  Instead, Cooper channeled an unexpected drop-in communicator, Gordon Davis.  Davis was a casual high school friend of Sam's.  Sam had been told that Davis was killed in action in France during WW1.   Davis seemingly proved his identity by describing his house in detail, by using characteristic jargon (e.g. "old chap" and "confab"), and by recounting shared schoolboy experiences.  Davis lamented, "I nnly care about my wife now--and my kiddie!"  

A few months later, Soal discovered that Davis had not died after all and knew nothing about the seance.  Why is channeling not discredited in this way more often?  Well, ask yourself how often you are mistakenly told that an old friend has been killed.  it seems that the medium was somehow able to exploit Soal's mistaken belief in Davis's death to recreate Davis's persona via ESP.   If that can be done, how can any verifications through channeling be accepted as genuine?  

On the other hand, a few channeling cases do seem convincing to me.  Despite this, I have no answer for the Gordon Davis case and take exception when New Agers summarily dismiss it simply because it challenges their rigid belief system.  The Gordon Davis case also poses a challenge to verifications allegedly gained through astral exploration.  I admit I prefer to embrace Swedenborg's verified contacts with the dead as genuine.  But I must also recognize my need to believe in Swedenborg rather than in the negative implications of the Gordon Davis case.  More and better research is needed on this difficult question.

Don
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #74 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 3:17pm
 
Don,

I think your post was very insightful.  How about I play devil's advocate here?  Let's say the psychic saw this guy's friend, spoke like him, said he missed his wife and daughter - but the gentleman was not dead.  Might not a psychic connect through the great subconscious to this other person, and simply be misinterpreting the fact that he had crossed over?  Remote viewers do this all the time, supposedly "seeing" out of their subject's eyes.  

This is the problem that I have with many things such as guides and past lives.  I think, it is possible to meet with people "out there," and believe either that you were them in another life, or that something else is going on.

Of course, your psychic could have dragged up a PI and been a complete fake who had been exposed by this slip up.  Just something to ponder...


Matthew
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