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Newbie - Worry (Read 66401 times)
gerald
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #45 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 8:26am
 
Ah!  We create our own reality...

What a subject!

I have looked around all my life for answers. During that time I've accumulated a lot of information, some good, some not worthy.

Accepted some for some years and learned it was wrong...but that's all in the learning process.

Eckankar, Rosicrucians, TM, different meditations, Cayce, Monroe, Moen and many, many others. Then I found Jane Roberts' books and Seth.

To my knowledge Seth was the first one to openly and fully explain this...we create our own reality.

All my previous searches finaly came together. Some astral travellers' experiences, Monroe, Moen etc. started to give the whole picture and corroborate the information from Seth.  Different sources, using their own vocabulary saying, basicely the same thing. But Seth was taking this way, way further.

I recently saw the movie "What the Bleep do we Know?". I was amazed to hear quantic scientists and others talking about things Seth had said about 30 years ago.  Electrons being in two places at the same time, that they blink in and out all the time etc.

So now it's not only Seth and others. Even scientists are noticing these things.

After Seth/Jane Roberts, many others started to say they were "channelling" also.  Now this is where I am of the opinion that we should be VERY careful in who we trust and pay!

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DocM
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #46 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 9:12am
 
I have posted a thread on Princeton's Pear laboratory here, in which random number generators were found to deviate from expected values, simply by volunteers trying to make the numbers change.

There is clear medical evidence that prayer groups may help some people get better.

In western medicine, it is common knowledge that the placebo effect will make about 25% of people taking a sham sugar pill better for whatever ails them in almost any parameter studied.

What do these things have in common?  Our conscious aware mind creating measurable phenomenon in the physical world.  Sure as Brenden mentioned we can't wish to fly like superman or win the lottery and get our wishes.  There are certain "rules" and "laws."

However, I am pursuing this concept of conscious intention and directing it in many directions. 

I agree about channeled entities.

Matthew
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recoverer
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #47 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:18am
 
Beserk, DocM and Rondelle: you can't say that what some of us have experienced isn't true, simply because you haven't opened up and experienced the same thing.

You might think that Beserk is really rational, but he typifies what happens when a person gets lost in his or her rational processes. If you can't see this, then you must be lost.

I'd take anyone of my experiences over all of your intellectual rationalizations combined.

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DocM
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #48 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:27am
 
Recoverer,

I have always advocated personal experience as the only way to go - within reason.  If you are defending channelers, I would say you have nothing to defend.  I am not attacking any one person/channeler, but a healthy dose of skepticism will not prevent anyone from gaining their own experience or exploring.

M
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freelight
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Reply #49 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:32am
 
Quote:
I should also add, having re-read your post that you imply "creating your own reality," means that you and I live in different worlds.  We don't we share a common reality that we both agree on, governed by physical laws.

When I use that phrase, I mean that our conscious awareness may cause real effects to manifest that can be seen/verified.  Not that we each create our own little bubbles of reality separate from each other.

M



Evidently there is only One primal Reality or Existence which is rooted in the Being of God, the Matrix if you will where all sentience, consciousness, awareness, intelligence, potentiality exists. It would appear that there is some truth to the phrase 'we create our own reality' but this is only true as far as our own personal power of creation goes or are allowed to extend within the parameters of divine Providence (again there are certain constraints/limitations established by already settled prinicples or laws of existence which inhere in the greater Body of Reality - the Being of God.)

We can believe that fantasy is 'reality' and certain parts of our psyche will believe this, but all our faith in a fantasy can never be true 'reality' but only to our own 'misperception'. - therefore such a fantasy believed as being 'true' is egoic and really 'unreal' compared to the underlying reality which is divine and eternally being. We can create or allow certain conditions to exist or come into being working with laws of divine reality or allowance...but if they are only in the realm of fantasy and 'unreal' our believing them to be 'real' is of no avail...and sooner or later the charade must be dismissed....as being our own miscreation. This View allows then certain liberties in which we can create false creations with our ego or create true creations with the Holy Spirit or that pure creative spirit which is of God within us. The ego's realm is more or less illusionary while the Spirit of God in us only inspires us with true creations born of Light.

So its evident as you note that there are parameters to our ability to 'create' within the Field of potentiality that already exists...but even then....we recognize that there might exist that which is 'unreal' and what is 'real'.....so our best sentiments and aspirations will be to abide in the laws that foster only the truest creations aligned with divine Will or 'God'(Love) for these creations are real, eternal, ultimately satisfying, fruitful, bounteous. The egoic creations which are more or less born from misperceptions and fantasy will never be able to attain their imaginations...for such can never be transformed into 'reality' in the divine sense as 'God' recognizes reality. So these 'personal creations of the ego' which may be perceived as 'reality' are the egos own creation and while they appear to exist as real 'to the ego'...they do not in fact exist in Truth at all! But yes,....the mind has the potential to 'create' if you will.....only within the field of its own powers.

I've been reading ACIM(A Course in Miracles) lately...so my theosophy will no doubt be flavoured thereby  Wink  - so some of the aspects/principles above reflect an ACIM perspective.




paul
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Rondele
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #50 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 11:34am
 
Speaking just for myself and not Beserk (sic), I never said the experiences that are reported here are not true.

All I am saying is that I have yet to see solid verifications of the experiences.  This is not an "intellectual rationalization".  Far from it. 

In fact, I'd say that anyone who accepts whatever is posted on this website without critical thinking is the one who is rationalizing. 

A cooperative effort to set up some rigorous standards to help ensure that the experiences are in fact genuine would be a far more productive enterprise.

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recoverer
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #51 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:28pm
 
Rondele:

I agree that critical thinking plays a role. But how far can you go with it if you don't also have experience? I can't say for certain whether everything Bruce Moen says is true. But I've found, through experience that much of what he says is true.

The fact that Beserk is so determined to put Moen and others down, shows that he hasn't experienced much of what they experienced. For if he had, he wouldn't be so quick to judge.

You can't determine whether something is true, simply by applying logic in the manner he applies it. Especially not if your logic is based on non-experiential and non-intuitive understanding.

Anybody who decides to follow a person such as Beserk, is just going to limit his or her self with the type of psychological conditioning he limits himself with.

If a person truly wants to find out what's true, he or she should forget about reading a bunch of books and coming up with a supposedly all encompasing theory, and instead look within and find out through experience.

It seems to me this is what people like Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe have done. Chances are that they haven't read half of what Beserk has read. But one moment of experience speaks volumes.

What's more trustworthy. A person's own experience, or Beserk's intellect?

I know that Beserk claims to have experience. If he actually did have substantial experience that he paid attention to, he wouldn't take the intellect based positions he takes.
 

Quote:
Speaking just for myself and not Beserk (sic), I never said the experiences that are reported here are not true.

All I am saying is that I have yet to see solid verifications of the experiences.  This is not an "intellectual rationalization".  Far from it.  

In fact, I'd say that anyone who accepts whatever is posted on this website without critical thinking is the one who is rationalizing.  

A cooperative effort to set up some rigorous standards to help ensure that the experiences are in fact genuine would be a far more productive enterprise.


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LaffingRain
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #52 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 1:22pm
 
I would like all who don't have experience to sit down for 20 minutes without any interruptions and have yourself an experience.
I'm sure we are all aware of experiments to undertake along these lines. tons of methods for inner exploration purposes including obe, or just meditation can blow your mind. its so easy to get off topic here. why are not more people exploring for themselves what it's like after you're dead?
try this: sit around for a solid 20 minutes just thinking "what does it feel like to be dead?" see if you don't blow your own mind, have a dream, hear a voice, or whatever...what you concentrate on you pull into you those experiences where you get your knowings because you can. all it takes is concentration. forget channellers...forget intellect and arguments..none of that matters. take a whole month if you want, to think about what it's like to be dead. where would you go, what would you do, who would you talk to? what would u look like? would u be happy? sad?
if you get nothing after a month from concentrating on this subject, then give up and conclude we must be programmed robots after all, and there is no hope.then come back here and ask others to prove it to you, that there is hope. of course they won't prove nothing to you. but at least you'll be able to imagine yourself quite popular for awhile while you do all the intellectual diaherrea. people are attracted to negative energy which says it has the answer. just don't be fooled.
u can never go wrong if you listen to your heart.
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #53 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:27pm
 
Matthew,

I'm convinced that the elusive line between supernatural intervention and the latent potential of the mind should be a top priority for academic research.  Let me give you 4 examples.

(1) When I was in my 20s, I would sometimes seek a "sign" of impending romance by trying to draw 4 consecutive hearts out of a shuffled deck.  This odd method actually seemed to work in the beginning!   (2) I also found that an old method used by St. Francis also initially worked for me--bibliomancy.   I would meditate on a question and then randomly open a Bible and react to the first verse as if it were divine guidance.   For example, I would blindly place my finger on a verse that promised intense romance and then experience an all-electric encounter not long after.

After a while, I became skeptical that these methods truly were effective.  So I practiced countless repetitions.   To my dismay, I found I could quite consistently draw 4 consecutive hearts from a shuffled deck.  But the "sign" that this method was supposed to prefigure no longer occurred.  Similarly, I could instantly place my finger at random on a Bible verse and find one that mirrored my exact thought (e.g. a grain).  I even demonstrated these odd abilities publicly--to my dismay as well the audience.  

Once a gorgeous female friend at Harvard used bibliomancy to determine whether she should divorce her hopelessly unfaithful husband.   In her mind it worked.  The verse she touched prohibited divorce.   I smiled and insisted, "Give me that Bible!"  I then instantly "fingered" a verse that encouraged her divorce.  She was stunned.  She smiled and asked, "Don, are you saying your divine guidance trumps mine?"  I replied, "No, Linda, I'm saying that I can do this at will and it means nothing in terms of divine guidance.   Follow instead your own heart and rational judgment in your decision about divorce."  

I know missionaries who felt called to Kenya because of bibliomancy.  Their finger fell on a biblical reference to "the Lion of Judah," a symbol of Kenya.  A real trap!  The big issue for me is the question of how these amusing psychic talents might be transformed into something truly useful for people.  

(3) When I conduct prayer meetings, I try to create a state of group consciousness that both maximizes the placebo effect and satisifies the biblical criteria for generating healing faith.  Occasionally, the results seem clearly supernatural.  But more often, I suspect, I've simply helped mobilize the sick person's immune system in ways that eliminate painful symptoms without eradicating the illness.

Even that can be a blessing.    But it leaves me frustrated.  I want to learn more about how to be a channel for complete divine healing!  The Bible hints that a vital partnership exists between the physician's craft and faith healing, but does not make it clear exactly how this works and can be enhanced (so Eccleasiasticus).  

(4) The most interesting case of possible confusion between psychic talent and genuine contact with spiritual dimensions is the Gordon Davis case in the 1920s.   Dr. Sam Soal visited a famous British medium, Blanche Cooper, in the hope of contacting his recently deceased brother.  Instead, Cooper channeled an unexpected drop-in communicator, Gordon Davis.  Davis was a casual high school friend of Sam's.  Sam had been told that Davis was killed in action in France during WW1.   Davis seemingly proved his identity by describing his house in detail, by using characteristic jargon (e.g. "old chap" and "confab"), and by recounting shared schoolboy experiences.  Davis lamented, "I nnly care about my wife now--and my kiddie!"  

A few months later, Soal discovered that Davis had not died after all and knew nothing about the seance.  Why is channeling not discredited in this way more often?  Well, ask yourself how often you are mistakenly told that an old friend has been killed.  it seems that the medium was somehow able to exploit Soal's mistaken belief in Davis's death to recreate Davis's persona via ESP.   If that can be done, how can any verifications through channeling be accepted as genuine?  

On the other hand, a few channeling cases do seem convincing to me.  Despite this, I have no answer for the Gordon Davis case and get angry when New Agers summarily dismiss it simply because it challenges their rigid belief system.  
The Gordon Davis case also poses a challenge to verifications allegedly gained through astral exploration.  I admit I prefer to embrace Swedenborg's verified contacts with the dead as genuine.  But I must also recognize my need to believe in Swedenborg rather than in the negative implications of the Gordon Davis case.  More and better research is needed on this difficult question.

Don

 
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #54 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:36pm
 
DocM:

I'm confused about your comment regarding defending channelers. I didn't say anything about them, and know very little about them.

I've read a little Seth, but determined that it isn't my path to get into his teachings.



Quote:
Recoverer,

I have always advocated personal experience as the only way to go - within reason.  If you are defending channelers, I would say you have nothing to defend.  I am not attacking any one person/channeler, but a healthy dose of skepticism will not prevent anyone from gaining their own experience or exploring.

M

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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #55 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:58pm
 
Don-

Intellectual diarrhea?  Gee if that's what it is, bring it on!  So much better than the hoo-haa of new age babble that promises much but delivers next to nothing.

R
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #56 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 7:32pm
 
Thanks Rondele, but New Agers really know how to get to me.  I take great pride in my descent from a long line of pillaging Viking warriors.  "Berserk" preserves this implication quite nicely.  By referring to me as "Beserk", they make me feel intellectually emasculated. Roll Eyes

Don
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #57 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 7:45pm
 
Hehe Rondelle,

but some cases are quite astonishing.

Allison Dubois is one of those that really inspire me. I heard about her a few months ago and I'll probably buy her book to learn more about her life.

Also I'm quite... uhm... ashamed to say I heard voices lately. actually twice. Once was this week end in the morning. A voice said "you can try it now" referring to out of body practicing and yesterday morning a voice said "you're about to get a cold".

I didn't thought of these things... wierd stuff but ... anyway for now I'm just making sure that "cold" doesn't get out of hand lol

...

Yup I sound like a new ager after re reading that but anyway I can look like that here  I guess Grin
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #58 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:27pm
 
Raphael, try sitting next to someone you don't know at a bar and suddenly ask with a concerned expression on your face, "Does the voice in my head bother you?"   ???

Seriously, that's interesting--kinda like my hypnagogic voices as I wake up in the morning.  Have you ever tried asking, "WHO ARE YOU?"   Cry

Don

P.S. What's your reaction to the Gordon Davis case I described above?
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Re: Newbie - Worry
Reply #59 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:49pm
 
I listen to my Rice Krispies. They tell me everything I need to know each morning.  Wink

Bob

Quickly: How many of you think I'm joking? Mu ha ha ha!
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