One other thing about Beserk.

He doesn't come here to have open conversations. He comes here with the intent of swaying people away from Moen, Monroe etc., so that they'll believe in what he believes in instead.

He actually believes that people need him to set them straight.

One more thought.

It isn't necessary to study every teaching there is and make comparisons, in order to find truth.

What's essential is to find a way that will enable you to gain experiential understanding.

Quote:


I completely agree Albert and he used to really bother me. But after a few years and especially this last year, I've learned to be TOLERANT of him hoping that perhaps he'll also learn to be tolerant of what he calls cultists, new age, etc.  I don't consider myself any of those. I am spiritual.

What he's doing is mirroring. What he sees in 'us' is what he sees in himself and it scares him that he might become like us. And I believe that we also mirror him with what we see in him that we don't like about ourselves. So it's a learning experience for all of us. 

With Love,
Mairlyn

I use the word 'cultist" because it seems the most accurate word to describe a New Age orthodoxy bereft of any respect for the verifiability criterion of meaningfulness.   If a New Age position is unfalsifiable even in principle, then it is finally meaningless since it will be maintained regardless of how decisive the objections arrayed against it.   

No matter how absurd Monroe's claims become, the mainstays of this site seem undaunted in their loyalty to his overview.  No matter that he claims to have encountered aliens who come here for the express purpose of collecting jokes.   No matter that he claims a prior life as a pilot of a flying machine that must dodge angry cave men hurling spears.   If Monroe paused to wonder if such claims might demonstrate the illusory character of some of his OBE experiences, he would prove that he has some semblance of rationality.   But his naivite is beyond belief.   Any neutral observer exposed to such claims would gasp at his blind credulity, the most apt term for which is "cultic." 

The same can be said for those who postulate advanced civilizations on the Moon and Mars and solve the verification question by alleging government cover-ups of these "momentous" discoveries.   As if our government were not really serious about discovering extraterrestrial life after all!  Labels like "kook" are sometimes needed to get people to wake up and smell the coffee.  Only a cultic mentality spares Monroe from the critical scrutiny to which worthy fields of inquiry are subjected to advance knowledge in ways that can be replicated by a neutral observer. 

Instead of engaging my arguments head on, the cultic mainstays of this site huddle up and hurl invectives to mask their close-minded quests and reassert their mindless New Age orthodoxy.   Any sustained hint of critical reflection would have prompted a much more sensitive response from me.   

By the way, Marilyn,  I am a specialist on the life and times of Jesus.  I can set up several tests to check your claim to be Peter's reincarnation.   My tests would include Aramaic conceptions, cultural practices, and the history of Peter's life.   Let me start with something simple.  Can you fill us in on the circumstances that prompted your composition of the New Testament letters known as 1 and 2 Peter?    Why do I know that you have no ability or desire to test your claim?

If you simply lack the relevant memories, is that not already an argument against the legitimacy of your claim?   If I had vivid memories of a prior life as, say, Alexander the Great, I would be eager to measure my memories against little known facts about his life and times.   One of the reasons I recommend Howard Storm's book so highly is that his Jesus impressively passes a few such linguistic tests.  My aim here is not to embarrass you, but to point the way to methods and insights that truly advance our knowledge.

Don

I also feel that I'd like to respond to Don.  Because, I feel he is correct.  I have seen postings about the Monroe institute, where they have suggested that their hemisync states have had extensive scientific study.  Then, when I went to the references, they were, anything but extensive.  Many focus levels and such were likely invented by a "consensus," and while the hemisync sounds may be as advertised, I have my doubts.

Flying an ancient craft, aliens collecting jokes, etc., are a bit goofy - and I believe may simply be over interpretations of the OOB state.  Such as our imaginations combining with the true experience.  This is not to justify the kookiness, but to say don't throw out the baby with the bath water. 

I'll be the first to say that I am not a drone of TMI or Bruce.  Anyone who has read my posts must know of that.  I also don't take for granted reincarnation, guides, or many "new age," ideas.  I am still exploring these things on my own. 

I respect the explorations that M and M (Monroe and Moen), have done - pure and simple.  They have realized for themselves that:

1.  The human mind is not as limited as society would have us believe - we are more than our bodies.

and

2.  That conscious awareness does not require a physical body.

For those two observations alone, there is much worth in at least familiarizing oneself with their systems.  Taking from them what one will. 

Tell me, Don, do you feel that you wasted your time in reading those books, or did you take away something useful from them?

Matthew

Rondele,

I like your post.  I have never done a retrieval and I think that the imagination method, is frought with the possibility of deception.

As far as creating your own reality - this is something I very much believe in, and am still learning about.  I believe that even in the "real world," our thought creates our reality in tangible ways.  To me, the reason it seems to so many of us that we are "acted on" instead of doing the creating is that we think that way.  We say things like "I wish to succeed, but I probably won't:.....and we don't.  We mix true intention with hope and doubt.  I believe that makes things quite complex.

I like to think of retrievals as possibly being real, possibly being fantasy, but done in order to both help others and explore at the same time.  Thus, there is merit in it for some. 

Others will tell you that they have their own verification for some of their imagined retrievals.  So we continue to explore and will see.

Good post.
Matthew

Matthew,

I agree with your post.  No, I don't regret reading Moen and Monroe.  I have had a few OBEs myself, and have only reluctantly come to the conclusion that they were just lucid dreams about OBEs.  I need to critique Moen and Monroe precisely because I want such exploration to succeed.   Even delusory failures can be instructive on how easy it is to be fooled.   Yet to some extent, it really does seem that both Moen and Monroe have explored other dimensions or at least other important states of consciousness.   

My key issue is the line between genuine astral knowledge and sheer fantasy.   Mediums have long claimed that lower astral planes can be realms of sheer illusion.   Similarly, OBE adepts on RB's site have claimed to enter the fictional worlds of novelists via OBE and to interact with the characters as if they were real.   Such claims force me to ask if all contacts with discarnate spirits are ultimately just figments of our imagination.    That is why Swedenborg's verifications are so impressive to me.    But even he sometimes seems to be the victim of either self-deception or deceptive spirits.   

I am looking for secure anchors to serve as a foundation for astral knowledge.  For example, I am impressed by independent reports of soul statues, sex piles, and apparent shredding of attacked spirit bodies.   Contrary to Recoverer's charge, I neither am nor have a guru.  I wish I was or did.  It would make my quest much more comfortable.

I do expect to become an astral player some day, whether through my Gateway CDs or through the Robert Bruce--Brian Mercer book, "Mastering Astral Projection."  But I also want to be part of a growing New Age community whose critical insights I can respect and learn from.   So blind acceptance of ludicrous astral claims upsets me because it raises the question of whether this kind of research is normally fueled by psychopathology.   

Like mediums, astral adepts contradict each other on basic questions like the reality of reincarnation and the basic "structure" of the astral territories.   As I've repeatedly said, academic conferences need to be developed which explore the tough questions neglected till now by a cultic mentality that resents competing claims from other adepts.  Robert Bruce told me that he never attends astral conferences because weak egos prevent adepts from exploring their differences and seeking methods of achieving consensus.   How sad!

Don