Call it an "anti-enlightenment" if you will.
I was reading various accounts of NDEs, and
a common thread seems to be...
If you want a non-miserable future existence,
you must become SELFLESS, and completely
focused on service to others.
Well, guess what? I did some intensive "soul-
searching", and I realize that I DO NOT WISH to
become a "selfless servant." My entire value
structure is based upon PRIDE, you see.
I consider the feeling of pride to be the greatest
thing I can comprehend... the flush of Victory (be
it in competition with someone else, or a triumph
over my own limitations, or observing the steady growth of my skill in a given activity) to be the be-all
and end-all, the very thing which gives meaning to
my life.
To pursue a never-ending program of self-improvement, to eliminate those things which I consider weaknesses, and to hone and polish those things which I consider strengths... even if others (or "God"?) might consider them "character flaws." My main beef with myself is - and always has been - simply that I've so far lacked the DISCIPLINE to pursue these ends to my satisfaction.
I have no beef with the fact that I am not "loving" enough, or "nice" enough, or "sweethearted" enough. Frankly, I do not care about those things, never have, and I don't see myself ever changing on this score.
Unfortunately, the "Universe" (which I'll use in lieu of "God") seems to have other ideas of what my values should be, and makes the post-mortem existence of the "selfish" person a total misery...
Perhaps I'll vainly try to cadge cigs off people as a "hungry ghost." (I LOVE to smoke, and even though I intend to quit sometime soon, I've often though I'd take the habit back up again in my old age... say my 70's when I'll die soon anyway. Might as well have SOMETHING I like when I'm an old man, I always figured..!)
NDE stories abound of those who liked cigs, booze, sex, and such vainly chasing those "lower"(?) pleasures as "hungry ghosts" and this might be what "Hell" actually is. It also appears that reincarnation does NOT exist, at least not for the excarnate human. (It is the "perispirit" - a sort of "fellow traveler" to your soul - which reincarnates, apparently USING you as an interim "experience collector." When you die, it goes on to reincarnate as a "fellow traveler" to someone else, "leaving you in the lurch" so to speak. Worse yet, this "Sputnik Spook" might well be your RATIONAL MIND, and you yourself are a totally emotional being devoid of reasoning capacity... this would explain why most of us are "El Stupido" in our dreams, no?)
To go to "heaven" I'd have to be a selfless, service-obsessed Rotary Club type. That is not me, and I can't work up ANY excitement (much less any DRIVE) to become this sort of person...
AT MY VERY CORE... I AM A SELFISH INDIVIDUAL.
And, I have no wish whatsoever, to be anything
else...
So, I'm FUBAR, so far as what's going to happen to me when I die.
Or am I?
Mr. Moen, in one of the pages on this site, has this to say...
"Recent exploration has discovered a sort of "Permanent Death." It is extremely rare, perhaps one of a few billions of souls makes a choice which leads to this..."
(Actually, I'd say it might be a bit more common than that - maybe one out of several ten-thousands - BUT I digress.)
Permanent death doesn't scare me in the least. (My father raised me to believe in it anyway... the atheist materialist view!) AND until recently, I truly believed it, and it didn't bug me in the least. I actually felt SORRY for Christians, Muslims, ect. with their terrifying visions of "Hell and Heaven" and "carrot and stick in the hereafter."
In 1968 (the first three months of it anyway) "I" was in a state of oblivion, as I had been for all time previous to that date. I wasn't unhappy then, so what's to fear about going back to it?
SO...
What kind of person typically makes this "extremely rare" choice for permanent oblivion? And how might it be effected, and to whom (or what) would I petition?
Might prayer help me here (to pray for oblivion after I die, with all my heart?)
I think that finding this site, and studying these things, HAS been a good thing. I am now aware of things that many people like myself (the selfish ones, those who become "hungry ghosts" when they die) do NOT know, or never bothered to learn... This might be my "ace in the hole" to avoid a miserific post-mortem existence, and since my desires are otherwise a "no-go" (from the Universe's standpoint) ... to find blessed release in oblivion.
Any thoughts here?
Thanks,

B-man

B-man did u read Bruce's stuff? especially where he "woke up" a lady who believed that when yer dead yer dead. so she was in a bst asleep on her fine 4 poster bed..so far as she thought, forever.
theres are bst where this goes on..seems everyone is simply playing dead though. not really dead.
these are not like easy retrievals to do and so if they want to be left alone, they probably are for the most part. something to do with their free will. only a very experienced light being can awaken these. but like I said, theres that free will issue, nobody wants to step on that over there.

look B-man, you've brought this up before about not wanting to be "of service."
whats so bad about helping somebody out?
you don't have to prostrate yourself dude, to simply give someone a ride to another location and maybe enjoy their company along the way.
cheers I'm sure..alysia

The interesting thing about values is that no matter how "selfish" a person is, the universe seems to conspire to construct "value" from almost all our experiences.

For example, if I was Joe Blow with that pack of cigarettes and you came along and asked for one I'd say, sure, go ahead, fellow, and give you a light. Then we might talk for a minute or two, maybe have a laugh.

Value would be created right there in the moment without any special intention by anyone concerned.

Then, maybe later, you'd give me a cigarette when I wanted a smoke. Some other rainy evening when we were huddled under an awning in the glare of a streetlight.  Maybe I'd be Lauren Bacall that night. I'd flirt a little and we'd call each other "stranger" and go off into the night.

I wouldn't call that hell. Maybe just a little slice of heaven.  The great film maker in the sky might write a little monologue for anyone who happened to be watching...

It would be a little "dream-like" but it would only be a small part of the greater story. The thing is, I don't know if any of us can ever see the big picture. So we just do the best we can from where we are.

I tend to think there is value in being ourselves, whoever we are. Something good will come out of it somewhere along the way.  We may be thinking that we are in hell and my god we LIKE it that way.    Or we may hate it.  It doesn't seem to matter.   As the "film" moves forward value is created "despite" ourselves. 

Perhaps it is just the consequence of being conscious.  If we were deaf and blind someone would have to spell the story out in our hand, like it was done for Helen Keller.  And even she found value in her experience, a value that transcended her circumstances.

It appears to me that most of us are simply too "intelligent" to remain "selfish" forever.  We "wake up" despite ourselves, and even if we are a little "late" we will make that "last ditch" effort to get the story right in the end....

Just a little late night rambling for those who care to read....

blink

u said: Nothing's wrong with helping somebody out, Alysia.
It's just that I'm not interested in becoming TOTALLY externally focused. That's not my bag, and I think I speak for a lot of people there.
I am NOT an angel, and I never wanted to be one. Just like I never particularly wanted to be a sailor... not that there's anything WRONG with being a sailor, it's just not my "thing."
Thats all, nothing more.

B-man

_____

well, if it's any consolation to you, I do not wish to be in angel in heaven playing the same old boring harp either with a bunch of smiling clones who sit around talking about PUL and how wonderful it is to feel it.
I don't see external behavior as separate from internal behavior/thought.
we read other's NDE experiences knowing they don't have the entire story either. it changed their life, but still, it's their experience and words are great, but they only go so far, to make you curious to get your own experience.
I found there is a healthy balance between selfishness and unselfishness..either way u go with it you will find the extreme example. the extreme would be a serial killer who is acting very selfishly to gain pleasure from that act upon another.
the other end of the spectrum is the martyred person who thinks they are being unselfish to put others before their own needs. both of these people are out of balance.

I didn't understand your comment about what being a sailor has to do with this topic of living a life in service to self.

oh, you must be referring to the navy as being in service? so you were a sailor?

lol. love a man in uniform. was this something you had to do? or did it squash you and u didn't like it? anyhoo, it's not the kind of service that my mind thinks about. I suppose its that external service you're talking about. i've never had to do push ups on command, so have no idea what this was like for you, but sometimes they say the service creates disapline values.

I must agree with Blink here, the value of this trek thru matter is in the surprise element or the overview, after it's over.

You've mellowed btw. I noticed that.
cheers, alysia
*****************
Nope, I was a soldier (Army) not a sailor (for what that's worth.)
I must say that the experience taught me some important life lessons, and for that I'll always be glad I made the decision to join. Here is one of those lessons...
I SIGNED A CONTACT, and TOOK AN OATH when I joined the Army. Hence, I had no right to question the orders I was given or refuse the tasks I was assigned... I had VOLUNTEERED after all. Furthermore, I KNEW what I was getting into, so it was fair & square all around. (Actually, basic training wasn't NEARLY as awful as I'd expected it to be. I might still be in the Army, if I hadn't gotten the impression that I was just a faceless "number" and not a human being there. I found that life rather depressing, so I got out when my enlistment was up... end of story there.)
I DID NOT take an oath, or sign a contract, or volunteer to be CREATED into conscious existence, though. (You might say I was "drafted!" Worse though, because there was no way for me to "dodge" THIS draft..! And how could I have known what I was "getting into?") Therefore, I consider the will of the "Universe" or "God" to be subordinate to my own desires, where MY life is concerned. If I do not wish to become a disembodied spirit with "no way out of it" after I die, then I feel I'm OWED a way out of that situation. Simple as that...
BTW, I used the "sailor" example to illustrate how just as I've never had an interest in becoming a sailor (I was thinking Merchant Marine or private shipping, actually... a lot of REALLY hard work and "off days" few and far between in various seedy ports of call) I have no interest in becoming an angel. Perhaps it would have been better if I'd said "clown" (another thing I wouldn't particularly want to be, I always disliked clowns anyway and I've NEVER thought they were funny) instead of "sailor"...

B-man

Chumley,

" I SIGNED A CONTACT, and TOOK AN OATH when I joined the Army. Hence, I had no right to question the orders I was given or refuse the tasks I was assigned... I had VOLUNTEERED after all."

Everyone in the military can, and has the duty to, refuse unlawful orders. Not doing so can and has resulted in trial by Courts-martial. The recent Abu Ghraib prison controversy is an example of soldiers NOT doing that being prosecuted. I know you know that our military is not a bunch of autonomic morons.
*****************
O.K., LAWFUL orders, I shoulda said. (I can't believe I missed that when I was checking my post for mistakes..!)

If you chose to reincarnate (and you did) then, yes, you did volunteer to be here.
*****************
I thought you were Catholic, Rob. Isn't reincarnation a BIG heresy in the Catholic Church..?
I suspect that WE don't reincarnate at all. The spirit which "makes us", if you will, collects the needed info from our memories, and when we die it drops us into a sort of "pool of the dead" and then moves on ("reincarnates.") Based on the binary soul idea, the "part of us" which reincarnates, is not, and never was, human at all. There is a very good website with a short explanation of this... do a google for "parascience.org" and go to the short essay "Reincarnation?" and also the free essay collection "Here We All Are..." and read the FIRST essay "Mortality" (don't worry, it's short too.)
It might catch your interest... it is about the most SCIENTIFIC treatment of this subject I've ever seen. Check it out...
BTW, I realize you probably think I'm "hung up" on this "split soul" idea. But, how else do you explain why we are so STUPID in our dreams? (I mean, something completely MAGICAL or impossible occurs in a dream, and you don't even bat an eye, or THINK about it!!! If that isn't stupidity and lack of rationality, I don't know what is..!)

B-man

Chumley,

You, unfortunately, thought wrong. I said in a much ealier post when discussing Catholic theology that I am not, and have never been, a Catholic. On the other hand, you have five fingers. 

Is reincarnation a heresy? Now, yes. Go back far enough, no.

As for your reference, I'll look at it. No promises. Thanks.

Bob

Heretic-At-Large and all around good guy.

I'mmm too sexy for this board, too sexy for this board... 8)

You have five fingers on the OTHER hand (if you actually have ten on a hand, well, that's ok too).


Cheers,
Bob

My current skepticism towards reincarnation stems
from my reading of Dolgorukii (the "Mortality" essay, along with the unattached essay "Reincarnation?" in his online essay collection "Here We All Are.")
One thing I'm absolutely certain of, is that there is NO "magic" and no "supernatural"! Everything has its cause, AND everything happens for a reason. I believe current developments in physics is on the right track toward the "Truth", whatever that may be.
Indeed, I'd still be a comfortable mechanistic materialist, if it hadn't been for some reading I did (starting about 5 years ago) about quantum physics, multiple universe theory, holographic theory and the possible implications of these ideas.
Here's a question for you though, Don.
Reincarnation seems an untenable theory to me right now. BUT...
What about the person born with Down Syndrome?
What about the child who dies, not making it to adulthood?
What about my oldest friend, who was left horribly disfigured, blind, and mildly brain-damaged at the age of 5???
In ALL of these cases, Don, we have people who were cheated of the "Earth Experience" if you will. They will NEVER know the excitement, the glories of SEX. Or their first big hunting trip... or getting their driver's license... or that first paycheck... or getting caught in a thunderstorm... or getting stoned and crazy at a rock concert... or heck, even what it feels like to win an arm-wrestling match in a barroom (if that's their thing.)
They will have to rely on the stories of OTHERS if they are curious about those things, or read about them in the "heavenly library" or what have you. And worst of all, they are going to lack this knowledge FOREVER. Talk about a gyp.
That is, if there is no reincarnation. Many people will have to settle for being IGNORANT of what they should have had first-hand experience of.
(Sort of like the "fat ugly cow" I went to high school with, who ended up missing her high school prom because no boy wanted to be seen with her. And years later gets to listen to her friends reminisce about it at her 20-year reunion and all she can do is WONDER. (No matter that she's better looking now than her friends ever were, because she got herself into shape and "aged well" and they all got fat and "matronly"... but that's cold comfort for her because she lost a ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY... and she knows it.)
Knowhutimean, Don?
Add that to the fact that when we die and go to the afterlife, we suffer a DEMOTION! We become far LOWER forms of life than we were on Earth, because we lose our conscious rational minds and our idiotic SUBCONSCIOUS minds take over. Then, we'll believe everything we hear (to name just one new-found weakness.)
And you wonder why I want extinction? What I can't figure out is why ANY informed person would want to "go on living" without their free will, common sense, and intelligence!
Please note that someone born mildly retarded (that is, smart enough to know he's impaired, a TRAGIC condition. Same goes for high-functioning autism) is never even going to know what it is like to be able to think intelligently - UNLESS he reincarnates and gets another "shot!" If he couldn't have that second shot - well, Don, that would be so grossly, brutally, and medievally unfair, it turns my stomach to think about it. Extinction would be kinder, IMHO... at least there'd be nothing to blame except dumb luck in the mindless evolutionary sweepstakes.
Call me a cynic. Perhaps you are right. Nevertheless, I'll call myself a... REALIST.
Reincarnation seems to have a lot of problems, but NOTHING like the problems posed by no-reincarnation, one-shot-at-life theologies...

B-man