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Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us (Read 86007 times)
Berserk
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Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Nov 17th, 2005 at 4:30pm
 
WHY THE DEAD DON'T CONTACT US MORE OFTEN:

I am starting this thread in response to Matthew's question on Ehem's Da Vinci thread.  A few years ago I read a study on alleged communicatation from the recently deceased, e.g.  through waking visions or a strong sense of presence reinforced by paranormal physical phenonema such as moving objects, a sense of loving touch, or a characteristic fragrance.  The study found that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British can report such postmortem phenomena, generally within the first year since the loved one's passing.  Later contacts are also reported but are relatively uncommon.  

The question of why is one of the most important questions to be asked with respect to postmortem survival.  To most of us it seems inconceivable that we would never take advantage of the chance to contact our loved ones after death to reassure them of our wellbeing and of their glorious postmortem future.   Most famously, Houdini pledged to verify his survival to his wife, by revealing the content of a message sealed in an envelope. No one can explain why he never kept this promise.  I believe in postmortem survival, but acknowledge that this deafening silence is one of the best arguments against such survival.  Many desperate rationalizations have been offered to deflect the force of this objection.

Yet where Houdini failed to keep his promise, two distinguished professors may well have succeeded.  William James (Harvard) and James Hyslop (Columbia) promised each other that whoever died first would contact the survivor and confirm the reality of the afterlife. William died first, but nothing happened; so Hyslop forgot about their pledge.  Then a year later, Hyslop was contacted by a couple in Ireland.  They had been playing with a Ouija board and were continually receiving an insistent message from a William James, who kept on saying, "Track down my friend, James Hyslop, and give him this message, `Remember the red pyjamas.'"   For quite some time the Irish couple did nothing.  They had never heard of WJ or JH and the message seemed silly to them.  But then curiosity prompted them to try and track Hyslop down.  When they gave him the message, he was initially dismissive.  But then he remembered a conference he and WJ had attended in Paris during the winter.  Their luggage had not arrived and both men had to shop for winter essentials.   Hyslop was forced to buy some gaudy red pyjames and WJ had relentlessly teased him about his taste.  WJ apparently sent this message because its vivid and concrete nature made it less susceptible to interpretive distortion.    

Two common rationalizations for contact failure are worth discussing here.  (1) It is often reported that spirits contacted during astral exploration go through a stage when their memory of earthly life becomes very dim (e.g. Robert Bruce).  When and to whom this happens and for how long are mysteries without resolution from a consensus among astral adepts.   In any case, one would expect most of these forgetful souls to contact their loved ones at the first opportunity before their memories fade or after they are restored.    

(2) It is also claimed that deceased souls soon ascend to planes where contact with earthly loved ones is no longer possible or much more difficult.  This claim often seems negated by mediums who claim to contact loved ones at will, regardless of how long they have been dead.  In my view, most mediums'  claims of contact are bogus.  That said, the claim that postmortem contact gets increasingly more difficult finds its most poignant illustration in the EVP research of engineer George Meek.  

Consider these quotes about his research  in David Fontana's excellent book, "Is There an Afterlife?   A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence:"

"In 1973 Meek began working with...medium William O'Neil who apparently was then contacted by a deceased scientist Dr. George Mueller.  Mueller gave O'Neil a number of personal and seemingly obscure details about his life on earth, many of which were subsequently found by Meek and his colleagues to be correct.  Meek claims that none of these details were known by himself, by O'Neil, or by their colleagues, and he concludes that the Mueller case provided `one of the best documented cases of survival for more than 100 years.'  A summary of some of these details is given below, together with their verification:"

I will list just some key details and omit the tedious discussion of their verification:  Mueller's social security number; his daughter's address; 3 of his degrees and the universities where he obtained them; his membship in the Haresfoot Club in Wisconsin; his meritorious civilian award; his top security clearance from the US Army.  

"The instructions on how to build the [EVP] machine [Spiricom] came over a period of time, firstly through the mediumship of O'Neil and subsequently apparently through Spiricom itself (at which point all communications were audio-taped by Meek.)  From where did these instructions originate if not from Mueller (p. 362)?"

"The [independent] report on Mueller's voice prints [from the University of Tokyo] suggested that the voice might possibly have been computer-generated, but pointed out that computer-generaton of this kind would require a million dollar computer set-up (Remember we are talking about the equipment costs obtaining in 1982.) and many hours of complex rehearsal and adjustments far beyond Meek's financial resources and O'Neil's competence (p, 363)."

"...As 1981 wore on, it became clear from Mueller's communications that `he was beginning to shed his dense earthly vibrations and was starting his progression upwards' through the various levels of consciousness said to exist in the next world.  It became increasingly difficult for him to communicate through Spiricom, and he began to give instructions on how to build a more advanced model that would enable him to remain in contact. However, before these instructions were complete, Spiricom fell silent (p. 364)."

(3) What seems so difficult for most ordinary people and astral adepts was apparently easy for Emanuel Swedenborg. During his astral visits he successfully tracks down most of his dead friends and relatives.  He is able to contact the dead loved ones of others on demand and bring back spectacular verifications of his claims.  Many of you have read my documentation of some of these contacts in my earlier Swedenborg  thread.  As for famous deceased people, ES claims extended contacts with the philosopher Aristotle and the famous theologians John Calvin and Martin Luther.

Don
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« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:21pm by Berserk »  
 
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blink
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #1 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 4:57pm
 
Don,
You said, regarding Houdini:  "No one can explain why he never kept this promise.  I believe in postmortem survival, but acknowledge that this deafening silence is one of the best arguments against such survival. "

Don, do you keep all your promises? Not everyone does.

Also, your deafening silence is not my deafening silence.

But I respect your argument,
blink
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chilipepperflea
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #2 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 5:25pm
 
Hey Don,

I like this and want to go over it again. The bit about the professors for me it proof surely?

One thing I want to add though which can complicate things furthur is life lessons, if spirit contact will disrubt a persons life lesson by sending them down another path then its probly not advised or allowed.

Ryan
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Berserk
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #3 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 5:57pm
 
Blink, all of us have broken trivial promises.   But most decent people keep promises that spare our loved ones great emotional or physical distress.  Houdini's widow was very distraught that no medium could produce convincing contact with her husband.  So to me, the silence is deafening, a real challenge to the survival hypothesis despite ES's verifications and William James's apparently successful postmortem contact with Hyslop.

There are at least 4 possible explanations for Houdini's broken promise: (1) Houdini never survived death.  (2) He survived but was trapped in a lower (perhaps hellish) plane where such transcommunication was inconceivable.   (3) He lost his memory of his promise to the wife he loved. 
(4) He was dissuaded from trying to contact her by spiritual considerations such as Ryan suggested.  Perhaps he was informed of the danger of opening his wife to the dangers of contacts with impersonating evil spirits. 

Those of us who believe in an afterlife and seek to verify its existence by direct experience do well to recognize why this quest is important.  There really is good reason for skepticism. 

Don
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #4 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 7:00pm
 
Don, you said,
"Those of us who believe in an afterlife and seek to verify its existence by direct experience do well to recognize why this quest is important.  There really is good reason for skepticism." 

So, I understand that you have spent time in the "direct experience" route yourself in the past? And you no longer look to experience such things personally? 

Do you believe based on your personal faith, readings and experiences, yet still wish to provide more evidence?

I have begun to lose interest in the "proof" and to have more joy in this experience, and so glad to have you back.  Perhaps I seek life itself and not life after death....

discoveries, discoveries

please excuse, blink
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #5 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 7:16pm
 
Two thoughts I've had on Houdini's apparent failure to communicate...people often say it's harder when we try too hard, especially if we're looking for a specific sign.  Say, just for the sake of argument, that we want to hear some specific old pop song..."The Hokey Pokey", for instance.  It's the only thing we'll accept as a positive sign.  Now, if our loved ones can manipulate our attentive moments, and maybe what the DJ decides to throw on at a specific time (just for example), that doesn't mean that they can make someone play some song that isn't even on the play list.  You got to work with them a little.  If only a specific phrase in English will do, and for some reason it's not possible to impress that specific phrase on someone, if we won't accept a close approximation (we're waiting for "Four score and twenty years ago" and the closest anyone can get is "A couple of decades back", because it isn't coming through exactly as specific words) some would reject it totally.

Specific to Houdini's wife, from what I've read, she was wound a little tight...it's within the realm of possible that he (or an advisor on the other side) may have recognized that an actual communication might inspire her to suicide in order to join him (I speak from the standpoint of a widow who, if I knew absolutely that it wouldn't land me in some level far away from John, has had moments where dropping dead tomorrow wouldn't bother me at all).
Perhaps, as hard a life as it seemed she had after Houdini's death, it may have been that the continued quest was what kept her going at all.

And a third thought that just popped up...someone, I forget if it was here, made the statement that we aren't supposed to know absolutely positively, that we're supposed to have to rely on faith a bit, or we wouldn't work for soul growth  because we chose to, but because we had to.  Someone as famous as Houdini, had he come through loud and clear, would have taken the "faith" aspect out of it for a lot of people.  I don't know if I buy that theory, but if it is true, then he definitely would have had to lay low or screw up a lot of people's opportunity to demonstrate faith.

Or, having spent the day at a funeral, it could be that my brain has turned to mush and none of this makes sense at all...but at least I'm no longer standing on a very windy hillside in an icy wind.  I've got another friend in ICU tonight after a car wreck.  Neither is someone I'm extremely close to, but still...
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #6 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 8:37pm
 
The question is; if most communications occur within the first earth year after death, why isit?   Is it because our loved ones have graduated to a higher plane?   If they have, our they still aware of us, if not able to communicate?

As for Spiricom and EVP, I have mixed feelings about this.  The spiricom website is full of new age jargon, philosophy, and little of the physics. 

I see Monroe's hemisync, and meditation as better ways to explore and communicate, because, really we want to focus our consciousness don't we?  Dow we really care to create a radio device from C1?  Many concepts are hard to translate, and some lower level personalities may try to confuse people who use EVP devices. 

Still, I'd like to know, what others feel about this one year theory of afterlife contact.


Matthew
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #7 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:16pm
 
Matthew,

I am improving my discipline in experimenting with my Gateway CDs.  My exploration is hampered by my schizoid attitude to Robert Monroe.   On the one hand, I have no doubt that RAM was sometimes able to have OBEs and I am impressed with the potential of the Hemi-Sync approach.   On the other hand, many of his OBE claims have by his own admission been discredited and this calls into question his loftier esoteric claims of contact with higher beings and aliens.    Also, many of his OBE claims would elicit disdainful guffaws from a dispassionate observer: e.g. his claim that aliens come here to collect jokes and his cartoon-like past life memories that I have exposed in earlier posts.  His last two books are the most gullible and poorly written books on this subject I've ever read.  {I liked his first book which is less steeped in New Age orthodoxy.)    Unlike you, I'm much more impressed by EVP research than by modern adepts like RAM and Robert Bruce.   I'm also put off by the New Age jargon of the Spiricom website and by doctrinaire wannabe psychics in general.   But the Gateway tapes give me a chance to explore and at least create istates of consciousness that are fascinating, if not evidence of other worlds.   For example, I enjoy the illusion of "floating" even though I know that my floatation trips are not real--yet.   I may eventually supplement or replace these CDS with how-to OBE books, of which Robert Mercer & Robert Bruce ("Mastering Astral Projection") seems the best.  But I find it boring to do psychic exercises out of a book.    

For now, Blink, I remain convinced of an afterlife for a combination of reasons, most notably the evidence for Christ's resurrection, modern NDEs, and personal spiritual experiences which include the following: miraculous answers to prayer, spectacular synchronicities indicative of guidance, many accurate death promonitions, apparent angelic encounters,  exorcisms accompanied by evidential parnormal phenomena, and devastating experiences of God's unexpected loving presence.

Don
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george stone
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #8 - Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:35pm
 
Dead people do contact us.one man I knew who died of cancar,made contact with me 3 days after he died.Another made contact with me in broad daylight after being dead 60 years.They do contact us,and we can contact them.Love George
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #9 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:12am
 
There is a fundamental reason why it is so hard to explain the failure of many deceased people to contact their loved ones, especially after the first year of their passing.  We know so little about the "structure" of the astral territories and the actual stages of afterlife "progress".   NDEs and astral adepts like Swedenborg barely scratch the surface of this process.    There are so many basic disagreements on these questions among mediums and the various forms of astral exploration.   These contradictions cannot easily be explained in terms of the variety of belief systems and agendas that we bring to our experiences.  In fact, these contradictions compel many reasonable people to be skeptical about survival.   New and better "mapping" methods must be developed to identify afterlife stages and levels (a) where earthly memories dim or vanish, (b) where they return, and (c) where contact with earthly loved ones is possible or impossible, easy or difficult. In my view, real progress on this score can only be achieved through the development of more and better OBE conferences attended by leading adepts.   Robert Bruce tells me there are some conferences, but that they tend to duck the really important issues in an effort to avoid controversy.  So he stays away.  But controversy is the engine of real progress in any respectable field of knowledge.

For example, many astral explorers are too quick to conclude that they have visited Focus 27.  Just because someone visits a Hall of Knowledge, a Healing Center or an Orientation Center does not mean that one has visited Focus 27.   Why wouldn't many of the BSTs also have such centers?    Focus 27 is nothing more than a construct to support attempted exploration of a "higher" realm of maximum freedom beyond BSTs.   But each explorer brings her own baggage and preconceptions to their quest to visit this level As a result, Focus 27 often seems to be just another BST.    At the same time, I do think some explorers like Robert Bruce have actually visited the level recognized as Paradise in Judaeo-Christian tradition.  Paradise is the preferred destination of the newly dead.   So I'm not calling for an abolition of the Focus 27 category, just a refinement of the criteria that establish it as the true destination of a given astral exploration.  What sort of criteria?  Perhaps the claim of some that this level is brighter than our sun, though the light does not hurt the visitor's astral eyes.  I've read many claims to have visited Focus 27 that don't seem to include this extraordinary brightness.   Are they confusing a BST with Focus 27?  More rigorous exploration is needed to answer such questions and this means a willingness to pose the tough questions to apparent astral guides.      
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #10 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:47am
 
One possibility is that a spirit might be able to make it down here
trying to make contact, but not have the skills, ability or power
to make themselves known. They might not be able to create a
physical event, or affect the thinking of the person they wish to
contact, or that person might not be at a vibration level that they
could connect to.

My mother appeared in my dreams, but not in a way to convey the
message that she was visiting us. Rather, I interpreted the dream
in a wrong way for such a message to be understood.

I recall NDE stories in which the person who was temporarily out of the
body visited friends but was unable to make themselves known or get
any attention. But they could see what their friends were doing.
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #11 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 9:15am
 
Hi, Berserk,

You say in your posting ".....To most of us it seems inconceivable that we would never take advantage of the chance to contact our loved ones after death to reassure them of our wellbeing and of their glorious postmortem future.... "

Surely, didn`t you mean this the other way round, namely that THEY contact us after death to reassure US of THEIR wellbeing and glorious postmortem future?
Albeit some may not immediately realise that they have died, they can see and contact us and are aware of what is happening (grieving) to us, whereas for the vast majority it is difficult for us to contact them in the early stages following their passing.

I wasn`t particularly spiritual before the loss of my wife but so many things happened, commencing exactly one week (to the minute) after her funeral, that eventually I became totally convinced of the existence of the Afterlife and have become a very spiritual person.
I have also received messages through a local respected medium about things ONLY my wife could have told her. I needed no more convincing that our spirit/soul lives on after we depart our temporary vehicle (body).

As to your point about the degree of contact diminishing after about a year, well, I have to agree. Most contact with her is now through dreams and the "pretend" conversation technique as outlined in one of Bruce`s books.

roger Smiley


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The past is history, the future is a mystery.&&Today is a gift, that`s why it`s called the present.&&Let yourself enjoy today. It will never come again.&&&&&&Butterfly.
 
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #12 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 10:08am
 
This is a great thread.  I've really enjoyed the exchange.  Personally, I think if we ever got absolute proof of afterlife, it would end our existence on earth forever.  The trip would not be nearly as worthwhile and it would all seem very pretend here.  That wouldn't do. 

If a higher intelligence started this whole game like releasing a spinning top, and it's difficult for me to believe otherwise, why wouldn't the higher intelligence be able to set a few ground rules?  Like, don't bug the living in a way that messes with their path.  Messing with the path of the living, effectively would mess with the progress of collective conscious.   In turn, that would end the value of taking physical form.

One thing I've noticed in my communciations with afterlife - the presence of another unknown entity.  I've come to believe this is a spirit guide of mine, who seems to sort-of monitor and regulate the experience.  It's like this guide knows what I need, when I need it, and gives me just enough to satisfy the need without completely distracting me from life.  I also believe this guide might actually be part of me that exists on another plane, like a spirit-me-counterpart.  Whatever it is, it knows me extremely well, doesn't seem to get overly exicted about things and seems to know a lot, so I tend to trust what it shows me or refuses to show me.  Weird deal.

Why Houdini failed?  I agree with cricket who said it was because his wife probably would have wacked herself if she found out he survived death.  This epitomizes the basic reason we can never find out for sure.  It would absolutely destroy our human experience. 

But really, it's simpler than that.  Houdini was an illusionist.  What self-respecting magician reveals the secret of the illusion?
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #13 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 10:16am
 
I disagree. We need absolute proof. Without proof it means the most probable explanation is that there is no afterlife.

If there is no afterlife it means that life has no use.

We would be matter that became conscious and slowly watched itself disappear for eternity.

Since the survival of mankind would have no logical and rational goal except for survival itself, it means life would be pointless.
Since our survival would be pointless it means we would not need to reproduce.
Thus the best possible course of action for everyone would be to have fun, to think only about yourself and to not have children since they take time and money to raise.
If you don't like life you could just kill yourself and it wouldn't bother since you would not remember life anyway.

BUT if we have proof of the afterlife, then it means we could find a goal to our life and plan for the future of mankind.

So I think reasearching the afterlife is the most important thing to do in order to know if we must fight to survive or just let it all go and stop the madness.
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Re: Why Dead Loved Ones Don't Contact Us
Reply #14 - Nov 18th, 2005 at 10:29am
 
Raphael,

You said, "Since the survival of mankind has no logical and rational goal except for survival itself, it means life is pointless."

Without proof of the afterlife this is your view of the world?

This to me is absolutely false.  Either way, with or without an afterlife, the immense and breathtaking possibilities inherent in our existence merit further exploration.  

Whether we see clearly enough together as a species to create a future in which we can understand this fully is in question, as it has always been.

The future has not been decided, at least not today.  Or has it?

love, blink
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