Conversation Board - Cryonics... an interesting development.

B-dawg

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Cryonics... an interesting development.
Oct 21^st, 2005 at 2:52am

Cryonics has been condemned for decades as
goof-ball science at best, and selfishness at
worst. After all, you freeze a body and end up
with a disorganized mush (rather like what happens
to frozen strawberries) with little chance of ever being anything but some 22nd-century mortician's mess to "clean up."
"Times they be a'changin'", or so it seems. Alcor (one of
the leading cryonics societies) is now using a process
called vitrification... where the ice crystals don't form,
and tissue damage is minimal (do a Google on it if you're interested... there is a rather disgusting but informative picture of a vitrified human kidney versus a normally frozen one. BIG difference, I might add...)
This is truly an interesting prospect... after all, even if there is an afterlife, hardly anybody has ever been in a rush to get there. (Even suicides usually envision OBLIVION, not "heaven.")
Imagine what you could learn here on Earth, with a couple thousand years to work with (assuming that they will be able to reverse aging after they thaw you out.) Imagine Bruce Lee (who died tragically at the age of 32) if he was young and fit... but had been practicing his art for 800 years... he'd make a Jedi look like a cripple! Maybe he'd be able to learn to use the "Force" (if such a thing exists) and be a REAL Jedi Master...
Or what if Shakespeare had a few more centuries to write more masterpieces... or what might Einstein have accomplished, had he lived to be a thousand years old?
Who knows what talents might even come out of your average "Joe Schlub" with a greatly extended youth-span?
Intriguing stuff. And supposing there WAS a Hell of some kind, and you ended up in it... well, maybe you'd be jerked back to Earth when they re-animated your body, and get a "second chance"!
So, maybe cryonics is an "insurance policy" of a sort as well.
Any thoughts, folks?

B-man

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DocM

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #1 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 5:01am

If you believe in the evolution of the soul, then as George Harrison sang "all things must pass." If we are sent here to learn, and then die, that is the game - in order to evolve.

Getting hung up on maintaining our physical bodies for centuries may be as much of "getting stuck" as being in a Hell or belief system, if it is fear that motivates it, and we stop trying to evolve our spirit/soul.

If machines and medicine prolong life, transplant everything and give us a hybrid-type life for countless centuries, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be part of that. The only constant in the universe is change. We either go with the flow, or we fight valiantly, but usually against our shared reality and the process of evolution.

However, if a popsicle is what you wish to be, then you may become a Chumley popsicle. (kidding)

Matthew

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Kardec Senior Member Offline I miss something I don't know what it is. Posts: 276 Brasil - Porto Alegre Gender:	Re: Cryonics... an interesting development. Reply #2 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 5:36am chumley I’m sure that all those guys you mentioned wouldn’t like being stuck at a same physical life for centuries doing more of the same. There is much more to know …
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blink

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #3 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 8:08am

B,

I think it is an interesting idea. I would personally like to have some control on what kind of condition I might be in when I "woke up" because who can really say how successful the revival would be?

The best case scenario to me would be one in which the future had a "virtual reality" in which my mind awoke. In this "virtual reality" I could look at different options for a new physical body. Perhaps I would not require or desire the same "old" body.

It is difficult to guess the extent to which these advances could progress for humans, and when would be the ideal time to be revived? Perhaps there would be options for new surroundings and capabilities so when would be the best time to "appear" on the scene?

It is intriguing. I would be tempted to sign up, if I could stipulate some conditions for my awakening.

Perhaps such possibilities will exist someday? Perhaps a better world with more choices for each of us could be within our grasp, or our children's children's, if we become good stewards on our planet...

Could this new world be as real or more real to us someday than our dreams of and visits to the afterlife now?

blink

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DocM

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #4 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 8:34am

This question, as weird as it seems is key to the difference in belief in the conscious soul and afterlife or disbelief.

Blink and Chumley - I understand your curiosity, however, if you really believe you have a soul that is forever, then you don't need to be artificially held in C1 by cryonics or anything else. You may choose to come back or investigate the future in other ways.

We all would choose cryonics if we do not believe in the soul or afterlife. Because who, in their right mind would choose oblivion?

M

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blink

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #5 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 8:57am

M,

A good point, but for the record, must a belief in an afterlife and exploration of cryonics be mutually exclusive? Just a thought.

Exploration for its own sake is intriguing to me, physical or not.

I will have to admit to you that I have varying emotions and "experiences" in relation to an afterlife, and I have no absolutes.

What I can believe with all sincerity is that a connection exists between all things, but otherwise my mind remains open on this question.

blink

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B-dawg

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #6 - Oct 21^st, 2005 at 7:23pm

Because who, in their right mind would choose oblivion?
*****************
Well, my cousin did, Doc.
As to whether he got it or not... who knows???
Also, my dad doesn't believe in a soul or afterlife
AT ALL... he's always been an atheist. AND he thinks
cryonics is about the dumbest idea he's ever heard of... he figures one normal life is all he needs or wants. Different strokes for different folks...
Also... if I were, say, Hitler or Pol Pot, or a Crip leader...
OR one of today's corporate mega-thieves (think
Enron) I'd definitely choose oblivion over the likely
alternative!
Should there be an afterlife, you'll get there eventually, working cryonics or no. True immortality
will NEVER happen... you could still have an accident, or be murdered, or even jump off a cliff if you got tired of C1 after a few centuries.
So, what's the rush? Might as well take your time,
and squeeze all the GOOD STUFF out of C1 that you
can! You might not pass this way again...

B-man

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DocM

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #7 - Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 5:45am

Chumley, B-man,

Your posts show a good level of intelligence, and I understand you. You don't understand me, however. If you believe in the afterlife, then you have no reason to extend your stay here longer than a normal life. As Shakespeare said "conscience doth make cowards of us all," and in your case I believe it applies this way:
If you can't be certain of the afterlife or the persistence of consciousness, and can't be certain if you will be in a hell, or stuck or part of you will, you would rather be here in the physical for centuries, because you enjoy life and this is what you know.

Thing is, if you believe that we are souls here to learn and evolve, there would be every reason not to stay in the physical beyond a normal existence.

If we develop machines that detect the astral or consciousness, or communicate somehow with the higher planes of existence, I bet you'd change your tune on cryonics.

I am not being critical of you though. Because, I believe that there is a little bit of Chumley in all of us.

Matthew

M-man

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Rob_Roy Super Member Offline Posts: 539 New Hampshire, USA Gender:	Re: Cryonics... an interesting development. Reply #8 - Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 6:20am Well put, M-man.
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blink

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #9 - Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 7:36am

One line of thinking might indicate that a "normal" length existence is all that is required for our learning? That nothing more could be achieved by living a longer life?

A "normal" length existence thousands of years ago under certain conditions might have been 20-40 years at best. I can't accept that the idea that people living here on the earth for a longer time in healthier conditions would be a useless endeavor.

Extended life is what doctors strive for under more limited circumstances as it is, don't they, and it is often the ethical choice? The key would be in how it was achieved, and how the balance would be maintained on our earth.

But would we even still be confined to our earth?

If our outer life mirrors our inner life, perhaps this kind of advancement would be a natural one even as people gained further knowledge of "inner" space. In theory, it all could be for the greater good.

blink

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chilipepperflea

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #10 - Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 6:00pm

Hey,

The only reason i can see for using cryonics would be to explore the future as the people we are here today, we can die and then return but then we aren't who we are today, exactly the situation we are in now.

However i wouldn't want to wake up in a space age world and have to learn everything all over again lol, you would definatly be out of place! The movie demolition man comes to mind.

Ryan

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B-dawg

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #11 - Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 4:55am

*************************
If we develop machines that detect the astral or consciousness, or communicate somehow with the higher planes of existence, I bet you'd change your tune on cryonics.
*************************
That's a truly fascinating concept, Matthew...
I WOULD be the first to read up on such scientific
proof, let me tell you. But what would I do with such knowledge?
Well, that all depends, on what the afterlife proved
to be LIKE, based on such communications.
What if the CATHOLICS were right, and the afterlife
turned out to be CELIBATE... or "churchy", or full of "purity and holiness" (what the heck does "holy" mean, anyhow?)
or monastic, or what
have you? NOT for me! I could pass on that for a while (like forever!)
I never wanted to be a monk... did you, Matthew?
So, if I could put that off for a few hundred years...
what's to judge?
(Now, if the afterlife proved to be real, and had all the things I LIKED in this life, plus a chance to reincarnate at my discretion... you might have a point there, Matthew. Who knows, maybe that's the way it IS... if so, I just might be seeing you there! Maybe we could have a few beers together or something.)
But until the proof you speculated about becomes a reality... then all I've got to go on is FAITH... not something I see much value in. (Look what wonderful "blessings" faith has given people in the Middle East..!)
Respectfully,

B-man

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DocM

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #12 - Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 5:06am

I agree with you B-man. You need verification, not blind faith. And I think that is why many who explore consciousness or the soul/spirit are doing it. But you also need to have a sense of optimism.

As far as it being a celibate bliss as in a belief system, these notions do not make any sense - much church doctrine was agreed on at the council of Nicea, by I think it was Constantine. In fact I heard there were over 50 gospels, and at that large convocation 80% were dismissed as being false. How? By men who ran the church - certainly not by a divine being....

If you believe that many in Monroe's group have verified Focus 27, where your choices are virtually unlimited, and you can reunite with loved ones, I don't know why any would choose an artificially prolonged earth existence. I still think that mostly fear of either oblivion or what lies ahead would be the only motivating factor in that.

M-Man

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B-dawg Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 596 Missoula, Montana Gender:	Re: Cryonics... an interesting development. Reply #13 - Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 5:22am Which brings up the question, Matthew... Why DID those priests at the Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) come up with such an AWFUL vision of the afterlife? Were they masochists? Or were they all smoking something? You gotta wonder... B-man
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chilipepperflea

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Re: Cryonics... an interesting development.
Reply #14 - Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 10:49am

Quote:

Now, if the afterlife proved to be real, and had all the things I LIKED in this life, plus a chance to reincarnate at my discretion... you might have a point there, Matthew.

I must admit this is what my view is of the Afterlife. I do believe we advance up their spiritually but this does not mean we need to become a monk etc and be all serious and not having fun, not saying they don't have fun, just my view.

I liked to think of it as a place where all my friends and family can hang out, everyone knows each other. We can visit all the wonderful places, lush green grass with the brightest sun ever and do what we want!

I don't believe in religions and especially their take on the Afterlife, no offence to anyone intended, just my beliefs from an Atheist who just believes in the Afterlife...

Ryan

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