http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

At last! A faint hope that known Truth eventually will be acknowledged by these hypocrites.

Good for them. Even though I believe that the love in Jesus' heart is real, I don't believe that all of the Bible is right.

First, and I say this to myself as much or more than to anyone else:

We must always respond to others with as much PUL as we can muster. Name calling is not PUL.

Bias statement: I am not nor have I ever been a Catholic.

Anyway...

This is not, by Catholic standards, an infallible document, either ex cathedra or ordinary. So don't be surprised if individual Catholics disagree with it. They can, and believe me, there will be those who will.

The article is also somewhat misleading. The author has taken journalistic license in stretching the truth. First she writes "The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful" followed by "The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers..."  The teaching authority of the Catholic Chruch lies in the Pope, and the bishops together with the Pope, the Deposit of Faith, and Tradition.  The bishops of England, Wales, and Scotland do not by themselves constitute the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Catholic Church, only for their respective flocks.  This document is not binding on all Catholics.

Also, I believe there are some people who are partially or fully aware of wider Reality but make a deliberate decision to stay within their belief systems because they understand that, for this life, that is what they are supposed to do.  I know some monks of Mt Athos (Orthodox Christian), now and in the past, have manifested gifts "of the Holy Spirit" that indicate this, such as Clairvoyance, Clairsentience, Astral Travel, healing, and so on.  Buddist monks certainly have had similiar gifts. I would be careful about condeming an entire group of people.  And I believe that these belief systems would not continue to exist if they did not continue to serve a higher purpose.

And...all these people, regardless of what they believe, or know, are our brothers and sisters, even ourselves, and they deserve a certain amount of consideration and respect, even when they drive us nuts . We all are essentially no better then they are. We should consider ourselves lucky, this time, anyway.

Bob

The Catholic Church will NEVER admit it's wrong. Individual Catholics can be wrong, but not the Church, because the Church is infallible, being the Bride of Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. What's more, the Pope, as the Sucessor of St Peter, has infallibility in matters of faith and morals when he makes a definitive statement binding on the entire Church (Ex Cathedra) because the charism of infallibility resides in his office in a singular way. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

If there is a mistake, the one thousand geniuses (sp) in the Curia will figure a way around it (development of doctrine, modern interpretation, whatever). And before you ask, if the Pope is a heretic and tries to put forth a heretical belief Ex Cathedra, he will automatically place himself outside the Church via self excommunication. Clever, aren't they?

The Church is NEVER wrong in matters of faith and morals.  Individuals, yes, even Popes, except when making an Ex Cathedra statement. If you are holding out hope that the Catholic Church itself will recant - forget it. Aint't gonna happen. Ditto for the Eastern Orthodox (although I like their mystical theology a lot more).

OK, that's your theology lesson for today    Again, I'm not nor have I ever been a Catholic. 

Bob

"Tell me what it is about Eastern Orthodox theology,
that you find more inspiring than Roman Catholic...
Just curious, that's all."

That I can do, but I don't have time today to get in depth. Let it suffice to say it's a matter of emphasis. Eastern theology is largely more mystical, while Westerners (Prots included) tend to be more legalistic and juridicial in their mindset. The East emphasizes the resserection and deification, while the West emphasizes the Crucifition and atonement. These categories are not mutually exclusive for either; it's the emphasis. I don't know why my spellling is difficult right now LOL.

"Eastern Othodoxy comes to us from the Byzantine Empire (A.D. 400 - A.D. 1453)... the decadent relict/remnant of old Rome, and perhaps one of the most corrupt political entities that has ever existed. Being as how in that Empire, theology and politics were one... what is the allure of Eastern Orthodoxy?"

EO comes from Palestine. All the original Christian churches whould now be considered Eastern. Even the Roman church was Greek for a couple of hundred years until the Latin language took over. BTW, the eastern part of the empire was THE Roman Empire for hundreds of years after Rome fell. And no, empire, theology, and politics are not one (Do you live in a theocracy?).  And certainly the Roman Patriarchate was not at all immune to corruption. I think both have done a pretty good job overall of correcting themselves with respect to their relationships to political authority, esp. the Roman Patriarchate.

"It is interesting that the Arab conquests of the 7th century A.D. were aided (at least) in part by the people of Egypt, Syria, ect. (which were under Byzantine domination at the time) welcoming the invading Muslims as  LIBERATORS..."

Nothing is ever this simple.

"Do fill me in, I am a history buff, R.R. - "

That would take a very long time.  Everything you would want to know is available online. Google these:  Byzantium; Constantinople;  St Gregory Palamas; Orthodox deification; eastern patriarchates; fall of Constantinople; divine energies; the nous (this is also found in Buddist 'theology') ; orthodox illness and cure of the soul ; orthodox psychotherapy; the great schism east west ; whatever, start somewhere and surf.

Questions, both historical and theological,  can be posted at:

The Byzantine Forum @ http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi

This is an Eastern Catholic message board frequented and moderated by both E. Catholic and Orthodox. There are some very knowledgable people there. This, of course, is a belief system forum, but they are nice people for the most part, and mostly well educated and/or well read. They won't jump all over you if you don't believe what they do.

When my website is done I will have a historical overview that will include the mystical experiences of EO monks and others, and well as both eastern and western rite Catholics, and others. But that will take a while.

Bob

Actually, it was "Equal-to-the-Apostles" Prince Vladimir of Kiev who was responsible for Russia converting to Orthodoxy, to wit:

"Russia shifted to Christianity. Grand Prince Vladimir of Novgorod, dissatisfied with his pagan faith, sent agents to investigate the four principal faiths of the time -- Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. In awe of Constantinople's Byzantine Orthodox service, the agents reported back to the prince and Vladimir ordered his people christened immediately, using force if necessary, and adopted Orthodox Christianity."

This is a pretty standard account from the Orthodox POV.
Bob

Official Catholic teaching, at the Vatican level, says that the Church is the Bride of Christ, is infallible and not a human institution. Populated by imperfect humans, yes, but as an institution it is not human.

Read your Catechism, article 9.

      So do you also need the various Papal Encyclicals, and the documents of the First and Second Vatican Councils that say the same thing? Those are just the more recent councils, but that teaching goes all the way back. Why don't you read these things for yourself instead of taking someone else's word for it, however personally trustworthy they may be. Even what is taught by bishops isn't always consistant. They have their opinions and outlooks too, and there is no official Vatican requirment for a bishop to be a theologian, even the Pope. 

***Read the source documents (a good rule for any kind of research).***

     I don't believe the Catholic faith or any belief system is infallible. And I don't care what's popular or not. If I did I wouldn't be on this public board participating in discussions that would have, not too long ago in history, had me executed as a heretic and possibly a Warlock, by both Catholics and Protestants. Yes, the Catholic Church has come a long way in addressing its human issues. But that has nothing to do with whether its teachings agree with wider Reality or not.

      On the other hand, in your favor, I will say that I've yet to see a charity run by soul retreivers, although it would be easy to argue that what they are doing is indeed charitable, motivated by love, and furthering humankind's progression towards universal awareness and expression of Pure Unconditional Love. And love is what it's ALL about. As far as the Catholic faith teaches that, I agree with them. But I don't need a bunch of complex theological constructs to understand that, and neither do most Catholics. I especially don't need fear as an incentive to do anything that is SUPPOSED to teach me about love.

      Too many Christian institutions get wrapped around the axle about Jesus the man, his divinity, and worshipping him and how, instead of focusing more on his teachings about love. Those teachings are why he lived that life and for which he died so horribly.

      My remark about the Roman Curia was cynical, uncharitable, and unessasary. I apologize.

Bob

The position Roman Catholicism finds itself in, is directly due to its historical, murderous barbarism, rather than any modern, fashionable unpopularity.

This organisation arrogantly claims 'unbroken connection with Christ' via a chain of theologians - as if such a tenuous link bestowed some Spiritual authority.

If this claim is to be viewed seriously, then the accompanying responsibilty for its hideous and  barbaric rituals and practices of earlier times, must also be accepted and acknowledged.

This dark side of Roman Catholicism is never publicly aired - indeed, there seems to be a deeply held wish that it will quietly go away.

May I refer to: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm
and
www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html

Warning: a very strong stomach is needed before looking here.

www.cfpf.com is the parent site for many, many more examples of 'the word of god' custodians in action.

It has been estimated that some 25 million people were brutally murdered, simply because they used their own God-given minds in a way unappoved of by these barbarians.