The other demons thread digressed into an argumetn.

I use the findings of TMI and its graduates as my starting point and point of reference for all truth claims that lay outside my personal experience. I understand them to be creedless, reasonably unbiased, professional in their approach, and at the cutting edge of their research. So far their findings have not contradicted my experiences.

So I ask the TMI grads: Are there demons or not? If not, what is it exactly that people are experiencing as demons or demonic, particularly in cases of posession?

Bob

What, exactly, is a 'demon'?
Apart from being a word, that is.

Hi Bob,

I personally have never run into anything even remotely resembling a demon in all my travels. However, I don't dwell on demons, etc. as so many people do. Love is my thing, not fear. I went through 28 years of fear with  my abusive husband and have released all of the fear and will never live in fear again.

My feelings of what demons, etc., are is that they are thought forms (remember that our thoughts are real) created by people, especially those who make horror movies, stories, etc.

I always surround myself with white light and ask for protection of my guides and angels with each and every journey I take non-physically.

Kyo, thanks for your post.

With Love, Mairlyn

Marilyn:

Good to see that things have turned out so well for you after those 28 years.

Perhaps some of the negative spirits that try to pop in now and then, are deceased abusive people that don't want to leave the earth realm. I doubt that they have a lot of power. They aren't even in control of their own minds. Therefore, it's hard to see how they can control anybody else. Not unless they find a host with similar tendencies. Or a host whoes belief in possession makes them a likely candidate. If a person believes that a wandering spirit can possess them, that might provide the wandering spirit with what they need.

I bet there are also some cases in which people create the idea of being possesed, and they need the same person who helped them create this belief, to press a bible on top of their head in order to believe that the negative spirit is gone.

Quote:

Kardec:

I'm unclear about what you mean.

[quote author=Kardec
I eended belive that:

recoverer

I'm sorry I very often have some difficulty to express my self in English. I meant I really agreed with that statement.

Recoverer,

I completely agree with your post.

Quote:


I have since learned that when we choose challenging lives, we progress faster and this is what both my husband and I did although neither of us knew it at the time. After he died in 1987, it still took me awhile to finally understand it all and only in the past 5 years or so has it all become so much clearer to me.  My husband is the Helper who goes with me on retrievals.   And I'm still learning as we all are. It never ends.

With Love, Mairlyn

Healing Lost Souls - Releasing Unwanted Spirits From Your Energy Body

Kyo, thank you for your post.  I read part of the above link you supplied this morning regarding fragmentation of consciousness and found it to resonate with my experience with healing.

Love, Kathy

Just wanted to mention Rosie's second book which was published this year "Soul Journeys" and it's very good too. I know you'd enjoy it. I met Rosie while I lived in Virginia and we became good friends. She's such a happy, joyous soul.

with Love, Mairlyn

Cricket said: when we're picking these lives we're rested, on top of all that knowledge, and we feel nine feet tall and bullet-proof...;>}

_________

truer words cannot be found makes u wonder, is this life really an experiment? ponder, ponder, ponder...

I like the way recoverer said:  I sort of thought I finished reading spiritual books,
______

as same boat I was in. thought I was through reading spiritual or self help books after ACIM..then found Bruce's books and found out I wasn't through yet! ha ha! I had read Monroe though before ACIM and he was always on the top of my list of favorites.
so glad I wasn't through!

how many times does this happen?

mind if I tell a joke? ok, ha ha!

Q: how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.

now, if u get any wisdom out of that or just a laff, I would be happy!

love, alysia

right Justin..if they only taught this in grade school!
well, it's all good, I always say....

Greets,
(and a hello to Mairlyn, Alysia, Kathy )

This entire topic is a tricky subject, and for many reasons. I'll attempt a quick summary here, with no specific intention of attacking or criticising anyone or any viewpoint in particular, but mention of these will be relevant to my point, which I shall now attempt to communicate :

On one extreme, there are the fundamentalists who fear demons with a religious fervor, as if they were some organized heirachy of absolute religious darkness led by 'The Devil', and be regarded as entities that everyone should be terrified of.

On the other extreme, there are those who take the simplistic (and admittedly much easier to work with approach for most people) view that 'demons' are simply misguided human souls, much as a wayword child, nothing more.

Neither view appears to the entire truth. The problem with this subject, is the tremendous human fear that is associated with the subject and concept of 'demon'. In truth of course, such fear (false evidence appearing as real) and darkness, is only a false idea created in oneself, in the person who fears.

To first understand what these Dark Force Entities (DFEs) are, it would be useful to read Spirit Releasement Therapy (SRT) accounts on how to most helpfully deal with Dark Force Entities (DFEs) or the 'demonic' :
Spirit Releasement Therapy - A Technique Manual
Healing Lost Souls - Releasing Unwanted Spirits From Your Energy Body
Freeing the Captives - The Emerging Therapy of Treating Spirit Attachment


It would be really very nice and quite frankly desirable, if reality was exactly as described by Dave. And perhaps, it indeed is exactly like that.

But from the accounts by William Baldwin, Louise Ireland Frey, and also the writings of Hilarion, evidently there is something that goes a little beyond both viewpoints previously mentioned. That is to say, neither viewpoint is entirely correct.

First and foremost, Dave's view is totally and absolutely correct, in the regard that in dealing with 'demons', there needs to be no fear *whatsoever*, only love. This is true in dealing with all matters, including on this subject.

However, it is an errorneous idea to assume we're speaking about normal souls (much less human souls), when referring to Dark Force Entities.

What we're talking about, are actually illusionary 'shells of darkess', not quite actual beings or souls, for those would indeed be part of God.

The soul, or spark of God within, of the original being(s) that created the 'shell(s) of darkness' or 'demon', remains at the core of the 'demon'. But the darkness, is not the God within.

And why would any spark of God create such an illusion of darkness then? As William Baldwin explains in "Healing Lost Souls" pages 88 & 89, and pages 90 & 91), these beings (sparks of God), had been mislead to (mis)believe, that they were not God, that they did not have the Light within them. (One could say, a (far) more extreme form of dogmatic brainwashing akin to the lies of the Church).

Hence, the 'demon', much like the computer virus (which is merely a souless program), is merely a 'cloak' or 'shell' of darkness (ie. absence of Light), and *not* the actual being or soul who (misguidedly) created it, who is forever a part of God.

Thusly, there may be helpful precautions and differences in (appropriateness of) approach, that may come to light, if one understands the true nature of 'demons', rather than either a fearful false fundamentalist conception, or an oversimplistic one.

For those who choose to staunchly stand by the happier, simplier model of 'no such things as demons', that is perfectly fine, as is for those who choose the darker, 'demonic' fundamentalist religious model of 'demons' and fear (false evidence appearing as real).

What you choose to believe, or see, becomes your reality. And so you work with such, accordingly.

So is there any effective or helpful difference between Dave's model and what we're conveying here? Or is it nothing more than a play on words and terminology, as some might think?

The reason why we choose to speak on this, is that whilst it is far less damaging to imagine the happier, simplistic model as compared to the fearful, 'demonic', fundamentalist model, there is still some danger there, if the model turns out to be incomplete. For potentially, should a future, more extensive experience come that appears to contradict some aspects of the happier, simplistic model, there might be unnecessary confusion and wasted opportunity.

But far more importantly (to correct), all of us here (including Dave, Mairlyn, Alysia, and yourself, dear reader) would like to do what we can, to dispell the false ideas of the fearful, fundamentalist 'demonic' model based on fear, because that is the most unhelpful model to work with, for all involved (including for the spark of God behind the 'cloak of darkness' or DFE).


So what exactly is a Dark Force Entity (DFE) or 'demon', and how do we most lovingly, most helpfully, most appropriately, deal with these?

There is of course, no one single answer. If you already have an existing approach, which works well for you (as a therapist such as Dave, Gordon Phinn, or a retriever such as Mairlyn, Alysia, etc), and is clearly helpful to the beings involved, then it is exactly what works best for you, what is most helpful to the beings that receive help, then by all means, please continue.

But if you're still quite unsure as to how best to approach all of this, as to what this is all about, then a suggestion, would be to have a once-over read on the Spirit Releasement Therapy (SRT) material on the subject :
Spirit Releasement Therapy - A Technique Manual
Healing Lost Souls - Releasing Unwanted Spirits From Your Energy Body
Freeing the Captives - The Emerging Therapy of Treating Spirit Attachment

As well as a relevant page from "Other Kingdoms" by Hilarion, on calling the name of Christ :
http://infinity.hispeed.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/DarkBrothers/index.htm


The final answer therefore, lies in recognizing these entities for what they really are, recognizing both

1) the outer 'shell of darkness' that should not be mistaken or regarded or treated as a human soul, but instead require the direct assistance of specialized helpers and angels for the 'turning' or transforming;

2) the inner essence of the spark of Light, the GodSelf that is the eternal, true identity of the Being, and of all Beings.

This reminds me of the movie Jacob's ladder.  In it, a vietnam soldier has just been speared, and as he lays dying, he lives a life, as if he has come home.  But he sees demons everywhere.

A wise chiropractor let's him know, it is all his perspective.  They can be seen as demons, hounding him, or angels trying to set him free.  He doesn't quite grasp this, till at the end, he son who died tragically around age 8 right in front of his house on a bike (something he never forgave himself for), comes to his front porch.  He says "dad, its time to go," and with a wonderous look on his face, they walk up a staircase together into a blinding white light  Still brings a tear to the eye.  At that point, in a vietnam MASH unit, his body dies.

In some ways, the demons/evil take on their own reality.  And his son was angelic/a helper.  But it is all his perspective.  I wonder if there are conscious beings stuck in focus 27, if they don't sometimes mis-see the helpers as demons to themselves.


Matthew

you said: I wonder if there are conscious beings stuck in focus 27, if they don't sometimes mis-see the helpers as demons to themselves.
____

I think it's focus 23 where this can occur. a man shot at a wall, reliving his death scene, waiting for the bullet, stuck, as it were, I came up behind him, but he thought I was the shooter...he "dressed me in those clothes"  so I had to change clothes fast to retrieve him to helpers.

Quote:


Hi Kyo,

I enjoyed your post and whole heartedly agree..its not so simple or so black and white (what usually is in the ELS, except for Love?)..

 I've had similar thoughts on my own--through intution and "uplinking".    

 I also relate it to what Bruce talks about in his 4th book, when he is going over the "history" of the "beginning"...   To generally paraphrase him, in the beginning when Consciousness was a single Source of Light within the Void or Unknown, it decided to try and explore the void or UnKnown as Bruce called it.  So it hit upon a plan to send parts of itself out to explore and to come back...and at first it was almost like a science experiment...  Some parts disintregrated before they even went out, some parts disintregrated not too long after they had been released, and some went out but never came back....

 One did come back though, and had Love as its base energetic...and Love can be thought of a as a harmonizing bonder...  Like Love is Light waves or an all encompassing field which holds separate particles together linking them all in ever adjusting but ultimately harmonious way.  Bruce uses the analogy of water binding the particles of a dry cake mix...  

 And as the Cayce Readings say, we as individuals are not the Whole, yet we can be One with the Whole... and the great gift to every Soul from the Creator is the ability to know itself as itself, and yet know itself to be part of, and One with all others.

 Then Consciousness created all other Sparks either through the First Child who came home (which i believe is what some call the Christ Spirit), or used it as a model to create all other Sparks...

 Some of these "new" Souls, it seems, were created with the specific (Creator) intention of being Retrievers (course they have Freewill)... cause there were still some of those original Sparks out there, and though they had a God/Creator spark in them, the ratio of or balance to PUL was lacking...  

 These are the true Lost Souls, and these are oft part of that Consciousness of which Cayce talked much about concerning Atlantis and its destruction--The Sons of Belial who worshipped self, separitism, and base materialism at the expense of consideration of others, or spiriitual principles..  Needless to say, many of these poor Souls with these dense, dark, and selfish patterns are in material power over the masses again, especially in certain countries like America...and yet again will we experience material destruction so that the more refined, positive, and faster vibrating energies can come in and merge with the physical....  We need to project Love to them constantly, and pray, "Thy Will be done, for the Highest benefit for the Collective".  

 Some were attracted into other even darker, or denser systems than ours, but evolved differently and became very powerful in a M-Band Thought way...  Apparently it is some of these in which we may have problems with around 2500 as Rosiland saw from tapping into future probabilities in the Akashic records...

Thanks again Alysia, for everything you are


Yes, my larger role (ie. not limited to this or any lifetime, or even to intraphysicality) as I have chosen it, my path of evolution and assistantiality, my modality of being and expression, is that of a communications networker, bridging and bringing information and energies of varying natures from many different levels, guides & helpers, and for many different people, across varying interest groups.

Which is why, incidentally, some of my posts use the more natural (and accurate) pronoun "we", for I am at times speaking for both myself and my extraphysical colleagues, the message or communication being a shared intention and common interest for both myself and us.

And this, of course, is open to all who might choose it for themselves; it's all a matter of free will, choice and personal preference, and the willingness to work colleagially with all guide & helper beings who by their own willingness, extend their invitation for such.

This principle is clearly demonstrated by the retrievals that you and many others here work with as an act of love and service, only perhaps (the same principle) in another form. Perhaps the system that best serves as an epitome for working most closely and effectively, with the extraphysical guides & helpers and all higher vibrational beings, would be the members of the International Academy of Consciousness (IAC), whose work and projects more than actively involve countless guides & helpers across many networks and levels, overarchingly.

As the IAC iterates with graceful eloquence, our role (for all of us) as conscientially diligent and self-responsible human beings in service of the greater good for all, as a natural expression of Love, are as minicogs within a multidimensional, interconsciential, interpersonal, assistantial maximechanism, offering our assistance and support in all polykarmic assistantial projects possible.


Love

Kyo

Greets Justin2710,

It's nice to see that you (and your extraphysical guidance group) are in resonance and 'linkage' with the energies and perspectives of the ones whom Cayce worked closely with.

It's really heartwarming, to observe the many different levels, groups and networks of beings, guides & helpers, and indeed the countless uniquely faceted energies of Love, work together beautifully in a dance of harmony in service of the greater CosmoEthic.

Thanks, Justin

Alysia,

Reminds me of John Lennon's line in the ballad of John and Yoko:

"Last night the wife said, oh boy when you're dead, you don't take nothing with you but your soul  Think!"

MATTHEW

As a point of interest, there is an episode in "Star Trek: The Next Generation" called "Who Watches the Watches."

How this relates to demons/Gods?

The federation is observing a Bronze Age civiliation from a "holo-grammed" outpost in a planetary rock, so as to not violate the prime directive of "no cultural interferance."  However, (without spoiling the plot for those interested) a native notices the outpost without power and due to this, a cultural contamination takes place. 

The native is severely injured by an electrical issue in the station, but the medical Officer from the Enterprise decides to restore him because she feels responsible, so she beams him up.

They intend to wipe his memory so that no negative effects in the culture will occur.  However he remembers and, after being healed, believes this super technology to be the work of a god and starts preaching to the people.  It is up the Enterprise to convince the people that they are not superior beings before holy wars and inquisitions start over what was seen.

Hi Steve_ED,
this is a real nice piece you told us (I've seen it too!), it's like it seems guides are working. I once was angry and asked: "Hey you guide-folks, you claim that you and I have a good connection. So what now? Why don't you just tell me what I have to do?" No answer. So I had to break my own head about this issue, and found, if they were telling me what I have to do it would be just not my own life and it is, so it seems, intended, that the learning process is enforced when there is some level of independence instead of "do this, do that, we know the right things to do".
Spooky

Recoverer said: I don't understand how any of us has made it as far as we have, with all these negative forces running around.
It's funny how some groups of people run into them all the time, while other groups don't.
___

had this same question awhile ago. was studying Robert Bruce who runs into what he calls "negs." doing horrendous battles from his descriptions...naturally, I was curious why I never run into negs to do battle with, and whether that should be on my menu? I like some of his work very much, and couldn't discredit him for everything he's written. I confess I'm a bit of a flower child..but some of his stories verged on the ridiculous, so I sought to understand the man, or at least his pathway.
what came to me during meditation was comforting to me and settled my questions. the message was that there are beings who are called warrior spirits, as well as protector, or guardian spirits. RB, it was given to me is a defender warrior spirit. in other words he has not come here to initiate war against negs, but he balances the score pad acting in conjunction with many other non/physicals, his group soul, as it were. each time he does a sort of astral duty in the other layers, he disingages some pressure of negative energy, like a steam valve, he acts as, so the negs, or that neg energy gets disappated, so to speak. he actually uses his body, his astral body to do this...I couldn't fathom...it's not my pathway, yet i couldn't throw him out of my heart either, just because I didn't understand his journey and thought him rather strange..each time he triumphs to balance the ledger, whatever, he himself becomes more powerful in light, for the next time he is called upon, to defend, guard, or alleviate a situation wherein a neg has overstayed it's welcome, so to speak. if you've ever watched an Austrailian on TV wrestling with an alligator, you get the idea of what sort of adventures he takes on within astral. one such adventure amazed me beyond compare that it took him 30 days to complete his soul mission from start to end which included a recuperation period for him, just as if it were a disease of another he had taken on, then had to heal himself. in this case he had done an astral exorcism for a child; there had been a sort of curse going on in the family for awhile and it was time to end it.
no, I've never met such negs, although I did receive an initiation of sorts to retrieve a serial/rapist murderer which went a heck of a lot easier than I thought it would, I really don't think I came close to anything RB does out there. I'm quite content handing out flowers thank u very much! love, alysia

Alysia:

I've seen Robert Bruce's book at book stores on more than one occasion. I wasn't drawn to it at all.

Occasionally while meditating I'll see a negative looking face. My first impulse is to offer its owner unconditional love, as opposed to stabbing it with a sword. The way I see it, sometimes beings get lost. As opposed to vanquishing them, I'd rather help them find their truth, so eventually they can find true happiness like everybody else.

Honestly though, I can't say for certain what's right in all situations. If it was absolutely impossible to bring a negative being to a better way, perhaps vanquishment is better than continued existence. Especially for the negative being.

Yesterday was interesting. Two times a bad vibes guy (different guys) was brought to my attention, and each time these bad vibe guys were accompanied with girlfriends that they controlled. When I'd try to help the girlfriends, each of the guys told me "DON'T TALK TO HER!" For one of the girls, I sensed a guide behind her. I told her look behind you. She went up into the light with a guide, and her boyfriend followed her.

For the other couple, each person went with a separate guide.

I don't have any verification for this. One these possible retrievels took place while driving to work. I saw it in my mind's eye. 

Alysia,

"precisely my opinion why guides do not like to give out a name for themselves or to bring themselves usually into your presence or vision. we are here to accomplish independently. although I should like to exit my life and spend a great deal of time playing and being rather lazy...but this will be later..we do have eternity, do we not? DP (my guide) wants me to come with him to the place where he does his sermons, but I always say that he should send a substitute so that we can go out dancing. love, alysia"

Uh, well, I have the names of all three of my guides, what their specific purposes are, how long they have been with me, and my history with them, including past life (for two, the other hasn't incarnated).  One is a past wife, and I give her flowers and hit on her teasingly occasionally, even though I know she is now genderless and has no sex drive (I assume), but (she) remembers! Does anyone else here flirt with a guide?

So this is unusual then, knowing all this?

Bob

Quote:

Good advice, to be sure. With respect, I will ignore it. I'll tell you why:

My life purpose is to write and teach spirituality. And you know that doesn't mean a belief system. Also to help people with their 'ghost' problems. I'm not there yet, but it seems that points towards being quite open and, maybe unfortunately, a sense of martyrdom implied in that people WILL reject me accordingly. Unfortunately for them, I have been living with a pattern of rejection since birth. Horrible rejection. Implied there too is preparation.

I also have a history of wars. Not just Iraq, but just about every lifetime, a war, always on the side of good. My service to God, I'm told. Fighting the Good Fight.

So if I kick the door down it's because that what I do because that's who I am. Not for everyone. If someone doesn't like what I say, then they can project THEIR reality elsewhere, or shove it somewhere unmentionable.  It ain't gonna stick to me. Someone has to stick their proverbial neck out and get their head cut off. Better me than you. Trust me on that one.

I am. I am who and what I am. Come what may. If I am popping off at the mouth too much and it doesn't serve a higher purpose then my guides will let me know.

with Love,
Bob

ok then Bob! good on ya! writing is one way to do it, speaking is another...I think I'm better at writing than speaking, but maybe I'll see you around sometime! love, alysia

Hi Bob,
yes, I had some flirts with female guides, well more than this, especially with one of them. They take flirting, sex, melting as something just normal and nice. I wanted to get their names and much effort was needed to get it. I wrote it down, and now I have forgotten the names (with one exception). I think they are members of my higher self. I too have some brief infos about what appeared as former lifes of them.
Bye, Spooky

Alysia:

Thank you for the point by point response.

kardec,

Forgive me for using belief system specific terminology.

War is evil. I don't know if there is something more evil than war in physical existence, but it's up there. A war can never be any better than the lessor of two evils, if it's even that.

However, one can be either on the right side or the wrong side of a war.  A person defending against Hitler's agression would be on the right side. Rightous intent would be the determining factor here. Defending against aggression, saving lives, property and livelihood, and other instances where the use of deady force is reasonable and necessary, and all other means of prevention and/or defense have either not worked or are obviously not going to work. In other words, as a last resort after all other means have failed.

That was borrowed theology and my experience with Rules of Engagement in the US military.

We know that things happen for a reason, for the higher good and the good of ourselves as individuals, both at the macro and micro levels.  So whether a particular war or event in a war is evil or not is not something I can say with certaintly, even when appearances seem clear from the physical perspective.

At some point I hope Humankind will evolve to the point where suffering is no longer necessary for learning and evolution and the absence of Love will not prevail in any instance.

Bob

Spooky: Thanks.

"...Defending against aggression, saving lives, property and livelihood, and other instances where the use of deady force is reasonable and necessary, and all other means of prevention and/or defense have either not worked or are obviously not going to work..."

Bob,

I don’t know if you is neither American nor English but I‘ve to confess that when I read what you wrote above I saw a description of Iraqi people. So I guess the Good side in this case is that where people are in their country defending they livelihood.

I had to say that because my heart could never accept what USA made there. They were destroyed.

Sorry.

Kardec,

I didn't ask for your political opinion, nor was I inviting a political debate.  That was a corner you did not need to turn.

My nationality is not relevant, either.

You asked a question, I attempted to answer it.

People get 'destroyed' in war, that is one of the reasons it's evil. Example: when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, when he dropped nerve gas on the Kurds, and when he drained the swamps depended upon by the Marsh Arabs, and when terrorists put rat poison in their bombs so when they blow up the children they have targeted, those who don't die in the initial blast will bleed out and die before medical personnel can assist them (rat poison being an anti-coagulent). 

Both sides can be argued effectively as to whether the Americans, British, and other coalition forces should be over there. Personally, I am against that war, for my own reasons. But that doesn't mean I agree with you. I certainly don't agree with fallacious thinking, even my own.

Bob

FALLACIOUS = containing or based on false ideas


It's me?

Will I looked this post 625 times, so I guess there's not much doing. I'm sorry. The devil made me do it.


Just kidding, just kidding.

I have encountered some strange occurances in my dreams and an OBE:

In one OBE, a stray sexual thought sends me into a sewer like world that looks harmless enough, but with an escape a ladder leading upward with more skeletons in cages set up like a gauntlet making this horrible moaning laugher that tortured me until I performed (what I believe is) an emergency escape back to C1 (this happened automatically, thank god.)  This receives a high score on the intimidation factor.  I sense some subconscious problems being locked away like skeletons in a dungeon, you could say. (My poetic spin on what happened.)
----
In another dream, I am fighting with a man who now seems harmless, but I was in "fight back mode" and could not think straight.  After running from him, I wander into some sort of hallway trap and this "Invisible Banshee" (BEST DESCRIPTION) comes screaming at me and slams into my being (my guess from the chakra vibrations I felt, stealing energy or violating my space. Perhaps a stray spirit looking for a good time with my Biological Machine?).
----
Another dream that has ceased for now but seems to be a recurring one:

I am inside a darker than darkness room and a toxically negative presence (In a man from) is watching over me lying upon a cot or bed of some sort.  The man is unseen.

He reappears (assumingly) in another dream about an abandoned cabin at a summer camp where I, for half the time, am unaware that all my room mates are gone and I am alone in a "horrible" place. 

If this is what godlessness feels like, I am convinced to never forget how to love.

There is plenty, but these are my best ones that would make hollywood take me to their studios.   

Bob said: Quote:


Same with my country using depleted uranium causing so many birth defects, etc. I wonder how many people really know about depleted uranium and what all the effects are from it.

Peace, Mairlyn

It is hard to resist asking what you might be doing abut this? in the spirit of Robin Hood/MacGregor/Pretty Boy Floyd, of course!

And to comment that as a part of our culture, we are the government! Democracy is a culture, not a government. The worst thing our government has done...I am reminded of Mr. Lincoln's words about fooling the people....those in government have figured out how to fool the people, and we let it happen. That is the worst thing that has happened. Now that sort of foolery is embedded in the culture. We get distracted from the real issues by other things.

I thought warfarin had to be ingested to be effective? Is it also effective when applied locally?

Is Judy Blaisdel one of the mediums Gary Schwarzt works with? I see he and a William Simon are coming out with a book on work with Allison DuBois.

Steve_Ed I always think dream experiences are things I could never think up in waking conciousness, so their fantastic (as in fantasy) nature is quite intriguing even if I don't know what it all means.

I was hoping the counter would come up on "666" for me but I got "777" instead.

Lucy,

"It is hard to resist asking what you might be doing abut this? in the spirit of Robin Hood/MacGregor/Pretty Boy Floyd, of course!"

Increasing my self-knowledge, lucidity, and assististianability (sp). That's all I'm supposed to do at this time. More later.

"And to comment that as a part of our culture, we are the government! Democracy is a culture, not a government."

Thanks for the information. Having lived in one for fourty-one years and having read numerous books on the subject, I had no idea I was missing the obvious. But thanks for commentiing on it.

"The worst thing our government has done...I am reminded of Mr. Lincoln's words about fooling the people....those in government have figured out how to fool the people, and we let it happen. That is the worst thing that has happened. Now that sort of foolery is embedded in the culture. We get distracted from the real issues by other things."

According to the definition of democracy you just reminded us of, we are fooling ourselves. So I suppose the first place to protest is in our own mirrors.

"I thought warfarin had to be ingested to be effective? Is it also effective when applied locally?"

An enema is the most effective means of application as it places the Warfarin closest to the body center and allows for its rapid absorbtion into the bloodstream.  Another unpleasant secret our government is hiding from us. 

I was hoping the counter would come up on "666" for me but I got "777" instead."

It's broke. It just came to me that Aleister Crowley is trying to contact you. May I recommend the Toth Tarot?

All in jest.

Love,
Bob

"The identified components of successful democracies are :

tolerance
legitimacy of democratic institutions
belief in the political equality of all people
questioning authority
education."

--------------------------------

To this I would add civilian control of the military ('He who has the guns makes the rules').  All physical power in any government ultimately resides in it's monopoly on the use of force and the means to enforce it. A person can believe and protest all they want. A bullet that costs less than a dollar will end the argument. So it's important that that power is controlled by the elected representatives of the people and not by an outside force that cooperates for its own interests (which can change).


" Do Bush et. al understand that maybe Iraq doesn't embrace all these components? what an uphill battle."

Insurgencies usually are uphill battles. As to whether or not President Bush shares your understanding (or you his) is not a question I can address.

"I mean, one of the elected members of the school committee once told me that he just defers to experts on matters of education. How do we raise so many "No brain, no pain" people???"

Did you ask him? I don't expound at lengh on certain matters because, in the eyes of most people, I will never be an expert until I have the proper credential. Is he an expert on education? What exactly is an expert on education? Someone with the appropriate credential and hopefully some experience. Does he have these? No? Then I expect that most people will not give weight to his arguments, even if they are true. So why should he bother? Worse, should he present arguments that lay outside of his field of expertise, he risks being embarassed by someone who has the proper credential. This would damage his credibility accross the board.

That's not to say that there aren't good reasons for listening to those who are experts. But just being right is often not enough to get people to really listen to you and give the weight to your arguments that they deserve.

As for tolerance, I have often found that the people who demand tolerance are often very intolerant themselves. If we could love each other like we should then we wouldn't have these problems. What we CAN do is focus on what we should be doing, step back and let things be, and live first of all by simple trust. Focusing externally helps us avoid focusing within where our real issues are.

BTW, when I was in Germany they had an expression: If you speak three languages you are trilingual. If you speak two you are bilingual. If you speak one you are an American (or a Brit).  

Bob

Rob-
I don't think it's political. What I strongly suspect is that the issue is one in which we see differences rather than similarities, and then set out to "fix things".  That leads to politics, but it also leads to cures for the common cold. But if your fix differs from mine, since we're both good people, we reach a dilemma in which definitions fail.

For your Good, since I see it from a different perspective, I will find something coresponding to my Bad, and vice versa. If we stay in the same reference frame, we might reasonably get into a major hassle. OR, if we look at it differently, we might find that it's all a matter of viewpoint, and there are no absolutes. Everybody is right, but not necessarily compatible.

dave

The Declaration of Independence is written in English.

Not being able to speak a second non-English language may be a mortal sin, but having to post information in non-English languages because the ones who are here to partake of the bounty have failed to learn the language of the Declaration of Independence hints at even deeper problems.

Obviously whatever great transformation is to occur must be something that enables us to get past this issue of he (well it usually is male) who has the gun rules. Can PUL be greater than physical force? Having to have clergy in the military always seemed like a failure of religion to me.

You have first-hand experience of Bush???


"Everybody is right, but not necessarily compatible. "   So how do we live together?

Lucy, just wanted to say..quote: "We used teeth before the sword" I am meditating on that endlessly....reminded me of how a baby, a new spirit here,  bites to either defend itself or just testing it's power...hmmmm.
well, we might have a new topic pretty soon

Kardec

Your post was not the least bit unpleasant.

I can celebrate the diversity in the world. I can celebrate your command of a language other than your mother tongue. I don't worry if you don't embrace the Declaration or English.

We have internal situations in this country that I don't agree with but if you are not here that doesn't apply to you.

If I go to another country I expect to have to function in the language of that country.

Of course, I understand English has ben exported quite well and so this conversation may look different from another perspective. When my son went to Spain with the Spanish club last year, I expected him to practice his rudimentary Spanish. But everyone there wanted to speak in English! The Claymore style souvenir sword he spent all my money on in Toledo was purchased in English!

There is a problem here with so many Spanish-speaking people who won't learn English. I don't want this to be a country where it is OK to use Spanish in official documents (I don't care what language anyone uses at home). But in a way, we are a multi lingual country (But I still think English should be the official language). I rode the subway train into town this AM. The Chinese looking guy across the aisle was reading a newspaper in Chinese. The Indian looking guy next to me was reading the Metro (in English) , which carried an ad about learning to speak Herbrew. A trip to the ER to a city hospital last year taught me that information is available in ..at least 17 languages. People are entitled to ask for a translator if they speak one of these languages. I don't know how many languages for which there are translators in the court system...probably not 17, but at least several. We speak many languages here. I still think people should be able to read English before they can get a drivers' license.

ha! Lucy, yes, it would behoove us  no end, that at least an immigrant know to read a stop sign, as cannot imagine that the gov would make a stop sign in two languages! is funny image.
I do admit I get a little frustrated when the instructions to something I assemble here in America come in 6 different languages and I realize I'm trying to read dutch.
America has always been the melting pot of the world and I think part of the frustration is concerned with  we take care of our immigrants but don't seem to give ourselves enough credit for feeding and assisting others to work programs and such. we believe so much in equal opportunity that America is respected all over the world, at the same we are despised for the same politics.  somewhere I came across somebody's projection of a world where we will make English the official language; perhaps in the united nations? this I discovered, the same as you, when I was in Germany as well Holland, they all spoke english ?? I guess it is taught in their schools. it amazed me. In France, it was a mix of french and english which had some funny results when conversing. in Italy, conversing with an Italian market propriator, he knew the word American Express card    One universally adopted language and one form of commerce would tend to unify the world into a community rather than a bunch of separate countries trying to maintain patriotism and traditional values. so whatever, I continue to melt when appropriate and solidify when necessary, but oh, how I wish I could be here to observe a unifed peaceful world which considers communication within a common language a necessity and alternative to shoot first, ask questions later. maybe I am a dreamer then. because this language can only be formed within the heart and we are just not there yet in a universal sense. love to all, alysia