Yeah, I meant that since we really don't know much of anything in a conclusive way, it's really not useful to criticize others if they don't believe what we believe or accept what we accept. 

After all, the beginning of wisdom is, I think, to recognize that no matter how convinced we are that something is true, we need to realize that there's always the possibility that we might be 100% wrong.  And if we sincerely adopt that attitude, we might all get along so much better.

Let me go one step further.  Suppose someone does a retrieval and says that they received verification that the retrieval was genuine.  I realize that, for them, the retrieval at least initally will be viewed as genuine and can have a powerful impression on them. 

The thing is, it's possible that even what we find in the Afterlife is not always the real deal.  Folks in the afterlife can be every bit as deceiving and deceptive as they can be right here on planet earth.  It's not like the afterlife is one dimensional where everyone there is who they say they are and where every experience is bonafide and reflective of the true nature of the afterlife. 

I think this danger is especially true when we set out to retrieve a specific person who dies.  First, as Bruce has often said, very few people even need retrieving to begin with.  So our effort to retrieve a person might be based on a false premise right from the get-go.

Second, even if we do make contact with our intended person, we really have no way of knowing that they are who they say they are.  Even if they provide information to verify who they are, that too can be deceptive.

All I'm saying is that when we read about retrievals, we really should keep these things in the back of our minds before we leap to conclusions that the entire experience was genuine.

And just to reassure certain folks on this board, I am definitely not impugning any poster's integrity.  I really think they truly believe that what they report is the real deal.  In no way am I suggesting they are making things up.  All I'm saying is that we need to be careful.

R

There seems to be a suggestion that you can't even trust spirit guidance, because that guidance might be a negative force trying to fool you. So what's one to do? Read the Bible, and leave it at that? Should one have so little faith in the goodness of God, that one should limit one's self to reading the Bible.

I've found that this approach isn't necessary.  For instance, I've found that my guidance has been helping me througout my life.  What am I to assume? That some negative force has been working on me all the time? Also, my guidance has been teaching me positive things. How to live according to unconditional love. Not to be judgmental. To love God, instead of fearing him. To be more humble. To recognize how fortunate I am, as opposed to complaining.  To expand my horizons, as opposed to limiting them.  To have trust in my inner strength, as opposed to being afraid.  It has also helped me in other ways.

Is it more reasonable for me to conclude that I'm being assisted by something positive, or that some negative force is being clever? I doubt the later because 1) I don't believe that you make somebody ready for an evil agenda by opening their heart and helping them improve; 2) I don't believe that an evil being would be capable of providing me with the type of guidance I've received; 3) what I feel when I'm in touch with my guidance is positive, not negative; and 4) I doubt that God would set things up so that we can't receive spiritual help when we ask for it.


Say you have a guy who served as an infantry soldier during World War II. He fought in Africa, Sicily, Italy and France. During the campaigns he learned how horrific war can be. Do you believe that somebody who "hasn't" experienced war, could convince this man that war isn't horrific, by long, logical arguments? Very doubtfull.

I'd say the same is true when it comes to people who have had many positive experiences with spiritual guidance. You aren't going to be able to convince them that grace hasn't come into their life. This is true, despite what Janeway might have gone through.

Hi Alysia and Doc

I guess what is really needed, probably even more than workshops on how to do afterlife explorations, is how to better distinguish between genuine spiritual contact and nongenuine.

Actually even that isn't stated right.  Because you can have genuine contact, but the real question is how can you be sure that the source of the contact is benign and loving, and has your best interests at heart?

And I'm sorry if I came off sounding paranoid and/or cynical.  I didn't mean to.  Of course we can't lead our lives thinking everything is bogus.  Well, we "could", but who wants that kind of life.

All I was trying to do was fly the caution flag.  I think the ouija board shows that there's plenty of evidence of misrepresentations.  In some cases there probably was genuine afterlife contact, but it was anything but benign.

Maybe the best approach is a prayerful attitude going in.  There can't be any downside to a prayer or two of protection before trying to access the afterlife.

Of course, some would say that our Oversoul is already plugged in, and gives us directions and guidance all the time, so why worry.  And if you believe in Seth, we've already written our life script so therefore whatever happens, even the bad stuff, is meant to be.

You know, the problem with we Libras is that we never can make up our mind about anything. 

THE FATE OF 2 MEDIUMS WHO LATER EMBRACE A CONVENTIONAL TYPE OF CHRISTIAN FAITH:

So far this thread is uncommonly discerning and rational.  The thread just needs a couple of poignant case histories to bring the dangers into sharp relief and to illustrate the importance of Roger's suggestion: "What is really needed..is how to better distinguish between genuine spiritual contact and nongenuine."  So I will summarize two of haunting illustrations of the relevant issues:

Raphael Gasson details his journey from adept trance medium to orthodox Christian in his book, "The Challenging Counterfeit."  For years he was enthusiastic about his gift and the philosophy of spiritualism: "I was being used in deep trance for the healing of bodies, for exhortation, and other practices.  Many bad cases of sickness came my way, and I really believed that, in their healing, I had found what I was searching for, a knowledge of God (p. 6)." But two key events exposed him to the evil and deceptive nature of his spirit guides:

(i) "One day I met a man claiming to be a Rational Spiritualist, that is to say, he believed neither in a personal God nor in prayer...  His oddest claim was that he was a master in black magic and that he knew that the spirits controlling him were evil spirits, but doing good work.  We decided that we would both go into trance condition and allow our "spirits" to communicate and see what happened.   I was positive that nothing would happen...The seance lasted about an hour and when we both came out of the trance, the members of the seance...agreed on it being a most spectacular seance (pp. 7-8)."

(ii) This "success" prompted Raphael to begin to question whether his guides were as benign as he supposed.   Mild doubt soon mushroomed into full-fledged disillusionment after he decided to become a conventional Christian.  Raphael fully expected that his conversion would only enhance his channeling.  Quite the opposite proved to be true:

"I...thought that now that I had a personal knowledge of...Christ as my Savior these "good spirits" would now work closer with me than ever before.  However, to my surprise they stayed away completely...i also found that I was unable to fulfill my engagements to take meetings or seances.  I was prevented each time by some unexpected event and never attended another spiritualist meeting (11)."

Just prior to this, "after this conversation with the pastor, I attended what turned out to be my last seance, of which I was the acting medium, and. . . the controlling spirits attempted to take my life (10)."  Some time later, "several times they succeeded in using my own hands to attempt to strangle me (12)."  But Raphael's new faith ultimately freed him from this menace.

Johanna Michaelsen documents her journey from medium to Christian in her riveting book, "The Beautiful Side of Evil."  Her career as a medium included a 15 month stint as a medium assistant to Hermanito, the spirit guide who healed the sick through Pachita, a Mexican trance medium:  "I had washed the blood of over 200 operations from my hands.  I had seen everything from the removal of brain tumors to the replacement of vertebrae and lung transplants (131)."  In trance, Pachita, or rather her spirit guide, Hermanito, performed this surgery with no anesthetic and generally with a rusty hunting knife!  The patients rarely felt any pain!   Like Raphael, Johanna believed she was doing God's work in bringing healing to many.   

But for her too, doubts crept in after she started saying prayers like this: "Almighty God,...help me now become an instrument of your hand.  I give myself to You, O Lord.  Guide us in this work.  Help us discern what is false and of our imagination from what is of You.  Protect us from any evil being who would hinder this work which You have set before me.  Let your perfect will be done (p. 95)."  Roger is so right when he suggests, "Maybe the best approach is a prayeful attitude giong in." 

Her new and honest dedication to the Christian God was detected by the Hermanito entity and he was greatly displeased.  In a new healing session, "he looked up and pointed to me: `Hurry, get her out of here!  She is under attack from an evil one...It is just a precaution: she has a most powerful spirit protecting her.'  He looked at me as he said this, and for a moment I was paralyzed by the hatred I saw in his face (p. 104)."

When she fully dedicated her life to Christ, she still thought she could work with Hermanito and Pachita.  That all changed during an evening walk:

"A dense black fog was forming all around me, blotting out the path.  Within seconds I could see nothing.  The dark mist was swirling, alive, filled with the presence of something more monstrous than anything I had ever encountered.  Voices began whispering, hissing incoherent words and laughter in my right ear.  An ice-cold breath touched the back of my neck under my hair.  `Hermanito, help me!'  I gasped.  The voices shrieked in hideous laughter: `We're going to kill you!'  I panicked and broke into a run.  Something lie a giant fist slammed into my back...I pitched forward in the thick darkness and instinctively reached out to break my fall...I tried to scream out, `Jesus, Jesus, help me!'  `He can't help you!' the voices shrieked...I could see the faces of countless demons, contorted, twisted in indescribable rage (pp. 146-47)." 

Johanna raced to her Christian friend Birdie who took command of the demons in Jesus' name and the torment permanently ended.  But so did her lifelong mediumistic talents.  Johanna is now a radiant Christian. 

Don

Exactly, Lucy....let's be afraid, very afraid!

No, let's not.  I won't if you won't.

love, blink

Hi everyone,

Don: I'm not really shure what you want to tell by this stories, so maybe I'm running opened doors.

Do you see this pattern:
1. One is working with spirits.
2. Doubts raise.
3. The believe system is changed after doubting into a special christian type.
4. THEN the spirits turned out to be evil and one has no longer access to the spirit world.

Did you ever ask how it comes that those types of possessment and demons and evilness is happening especially in regions where some christian-church belief is strong and priests who are telling those stories do have authority?

It tells of how much we are creating our world, doesn't it?
Bye, spooky

Spooky,

Where did you get this so-called pattern?  Howell Vincent was a Presbyterian minister and, as Roger can attest, his "retrievals" and encounters with the dead are very, very impressive.  Johanna and Raphael merely shifted their focus from mediumship to other supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Don