Friends

Now it is my time to “let it out”. A few days a go Alysia gave me a little “hint” on the subject I’m going to start here and I thank her a lot for the help.

(English is not my native language so we may have some cultural misunderstood here)

I’ve been studying the After-live subject for the last 20 years. As time as passed I started to talk about it to people around me. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to live my life the way I BELIEVE should be right one.

At about 7 years ago I joined a group whose the main goal is to enlighten other people minds like some of us try here in this site, the main difference is that people there is joined together in a room, so we really get in touch with then (physically speaking).

The problem is that different from you (the ones who experience OBE, retrieving, and so on) all I know is a result of the books I’ve read and the experiences of the people I’ve met along my live. So all I pass along to that people is what I BELIEVE.

Problem:

As I got used to this conversation board I’ve learnt many things and the strongest one and relatively new is:

“WHAT REALLY CAN CHANGE YOU IS WHAT YOU KNOW. – A BELIEF ONLY BECAMES A KNOWN WHEN YOU EXPERIENCES IN YOUR LIFE THE THINGS YOU BELIEVE IN.

Conclusions:

1)I BELIEVE many things
2)I know nothing

Question:

Have I the rights of passing along Beliefs that I could not tranform into knows?
To night I’ve one more session there and I fell kind of shy since I realized what I wrote above.

that is it.

Love to you.

Kardec,

Even the OBEs and astral explorations of alleged adepts are so contradictory on fundamental questions that the dichotomy between "knowns" and "beliefs" must be considered illusory.  They disagree on the basic structure of the afterlife planes, on whether reincarnation memories can be reliable, on whether astral projection is dangerous, and on whether evil exists.  I know adepts who find proof of the fundamentalist Christian model in their OBEs.  I myself have experienced two apparent OBEs and done a retrieval, and some of these experiences were extremely vivid, emotional, and convincing at the time.   They seemed just like the OBEs of others.  Only months later could I be honest enough to get past my wishful thinking and accept what my intuition was making increasingly clear---that these experiences were bogus, i.e., nothing more than lucid dreams. 

Of course, like you, I still want more OBEs.  What you really need is what Swedenborg spent years to develop and refine--a reliable gift of discernment to separate the real from the bogus.  Until you have your own experiences, I think it is vital that you read broadly to grasp the diversity of OBE perspectives, the many ways OBEs can be confused with lucid dreams, and the many ways prior assumptions can warp astral perception.  So by all means express your beliefs to everyone in your group.  Your beliefs just might be more valid than group members who have experienced OBEs! 


Don

Kardek said: 1)I BELIEVE many things
2)I know nothing
 
Question:
 
Have I the rights of passing along Beliefs that I could not tranform into knows?
To night I’ve one more session there and I fell kind of shy since I realized what I wrote above.
______

well, this looks like the beginning point for you now because look what u are doing now...you are expressing yourself. you are still sharing yourself. is this not the point? that we all wish to self express and to be joining with others. u express a question along with your feeling which is perfectly balanced viewing point. a lot of people will say, thats where I am at too, therefore ....it is all good to be accepting you do not know but that you wish to know. I got a lot out of Kyo's post where he says what is it you wish to become? then so become it. because I see always the becoming moment, the expansive moment, there is joy in that. there is joy to accept we do not know but that we can move towards knowing through experience. Kardek, I do not believe it is possible to enlighten folks, but what u do here to share your crisis, that to me, is enough, to notice you had to have courage to tell us you were shy, to say "I know nothing." some may judge to express feelings here but you did it. one thing I noticed about the universe, we are always exactly where we are supposed to be, when taking a look at the overview.
you are now beginning to own your journey. it can only get better from there. love, alysia

Hi Kardec-

I'm with you 100%.  The problem seems to be one of the nature of knowing. There is a difference in meaning when I say, "I know my name, or the name of a tree," as compared to saying, "I know how to tie my shoe," and both of those differ from saying, "I know that the sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees."

As for triangles, the rules of logic and geometry seem to be a kind of knowledge that we are ertain of. It is just as true here today as it was in the Andrmeda Galaxy 100,000,000 years ago.

To know how to tie my shoe is a matter of having a specific kind of shoes and using an adequate knot. My "knowing" is based on whether or not this works, or whether the shoe falls off, indicating that I do not have that knowledge.

To know my name, or the name of a tree, means that I can repeat the label given something. Whether or not I know this depends upon social approval.

In every case, we begin with awareness, but not knowledge. We add knowledge by assembling experiences into patterns, and then patterns of patterns etc, until our "knowledge" is an expression of the patterns. Aside from abstract knowledge, everything we know is situational, and a different person in a different place and time would disagree. In the very practical sense, all we know is, "Something seems to be happening and it seems to involve my awareness."

Some ays ago you mentioned visting a religious rite in which spirits "mounted" the participants, perhaps an Umbanda or Mocumba ritual. Your observation gave you direct knowledge of what you saw, but not of the experiences of others. Perhaps they told you of their experiences, in which case you have some knowledge, or maybe you joined in, in which case you too have the experience, and might wonder whether it is the same as the experiences of others.

So long as you talk about your experiences in honest terms, "This is what I saw," or "This is what I felt," then you are fully appropriate. If, however, you decide to take it on faith alone that the experiences must have included a bright blue light, a fearful noise, or visions of animals coming through the walls, then you are obligated to admit that these ideas were not yours, but that you are taking them on faith. By mentioning that much of your understanding is based on concepts taken from books, you are obviously saying this.

The problem in society is not that people take things on faith, such as the idea that it is not a good thing to drop nuclear weapons on one another (even though we have never had that personal experience).  The problem is that people take thngs on faith and then insist that they have the one and only answer and ultimate knowledge.

The Inquisition used to judge people rather harshly on the basis of whether they had the true and proper understanding, that the earth was flat, and that the sun, planets and stars revolve around us. In the modern world we have scientists telling us that matter is primary, and everything is material. At the same time we have New Age people telling us that everythng is spirit. (That's my belief, based on my experiences.) We also have others telling us other thngs. The last victim of the Inquisition was a Quaker schoolteacher in Spain who taught beliefs not shared by others. Whether he was technically right or wrong, it served him poorly.

Having said all that, let me point out that you began this thread with the remark that you are passing along information about what you BELIEVE. That clarifies the matter in my mind. If everyone would speak only on the basis of personal belief, I THINK the world would be a better place. If people would also be aware, and make others aware, that they spoke only on the basis of personal belief, I am SURE that the world would be a better place. Thus, in my mind, you are not part of the problem. Instead, you are part of the solution.

As an example of the problem of taking things on faith, some time ago I read of something called "epena", a mixture of virola resin and ashes that shamans snuff up their noses to see spirits. This was in a reputable and respected source of information. It sounded like a good idea, so I tried it. First a couple of big sniffs, then looking for spirits. No spirits. What I actually discovered is that I have about 15 centmeters of nasal tissue betwen my nose and throat, and all of it felt like it was on fire and urgently wanted me to make it stop hurting.

It is quite possible that we will all have a similar experience when we die, when our bodies fall off we might feel terribly uncomfortable. We might have no awareness at all. We might hav other experiences as well. However, on the basis of what I have been told, plus my own experiences, I believe that this is not the case. Similarly, on the basis of what you have learned, and your conclusions, I see no reason that you are causing any problems by expressing your beliefs. In fact, I find that your perspective is quite interesting.

d

Alisya Thanks for the way you make things soft and tasteful.

Marilyn thank you for your kindness.

Don I partially agree with you and I think spontaneous OBEs can be a more reliable source of information. Just for kid (try the translation)Allan Kardec (Lion France) said once… “é preferível rejeitar dez verdades do que aceitar uma mentira”.

And Dave You simple reorganized my mind and let things clear. It was really useful the way you dealt with the question.  Now I feel good.

I really, really like you all. and I deeply respect you standing point.

Take care.

Hi Kardec,
don't know if you tried Bruce Moens method of his guidebook. I say don't care for "true" experiences too much in the first time and give your imagination a chance, the jump-in-method so to say. The worries Berserk mentioned about different explorers telling different things about the afterlife might come from the nature of it itself; that there isn't an objective, intersubjective field of data at all like natural science has established in physical matter. In any case, the personal factor is reality-building, some say within a frame of possibilities, some even say there are no limits. And this is where we come to our beliefs. The strongest beliefs are the knowings. That's why they are not easy to drop, we need stability too. If there is no end in progress and changing, then there is no absolute knowledge. But we need to rest after each step, looking at our new knowledges and enjoying it, until we go further and all our former knowledge is seen in the light of the new knowledge we gained.
Hmm, I wandered, didn't I?
Bye, spooky