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Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection (Read 198824 times)
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #90 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 2:31pm
 
Donald, I knew it wouldn't do any good but I had to try one last time. You have shown your true colors. If you feel I'm vicious, that's your perception. I actually feel sorry for you.

Goodbye and go with God,
Mairlyn
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #91 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 2:40pm
 
I see Don is up to his old tricks as usual...
Don's been here awhile, a few years, whatever, a speck of time within eternity..what does it matter? we all end up dead...sure hope theres no internet in the sky, I'd like to spend my time in more enjoyable fashion than listening to rantings....

for those unaware, Don has an obsession with ES, could possibly be related to him in some way..who cares? I'm sure we are all related to some famous person...I went to view Don over on another forum, see who this guy was ... Robert Bruce's Astral Pulse....funny....there was Don, sitting all alone in his little room running off reams of material on ES...fancy that....I only saw two people over there who bothered to respond...I wondered why...as I didn't understand his motives...if you are so interested in ES, enough to spend hours writing it all down for the misinformed masses, then why not actually write a book? or go and pay for your own website, and gather together your audience? This is Author Bruce Moen who pays the monthly dues...why be a hog for attention on someone else's website? it's rude.
check out the posting guidelines here Don...here I'll do it for you:
__________
This Conversation Board provides a forum for sharing questions, experiences, wonderings and ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life. To maintain an atmosphere of open, free discussion please follow these posting guidelines. Be polite, it's easy and most productive. Disagreements often lead to opportunities for great discussion and learning, but profanity, vulgar language, name calling and verbal attacks can lead to disappearing posts and/or loss of access privileges. Posts advocating use of illegal drugs or illegal activities will not be tolerated.
______
OK, now consider that word Proselytizing well Don. I think it fits you. also consider that u have been posting copyrighted material, and not briefly.
_____


Proselytizing is discouraged. Posting copyrighted material without the author's permission (except for brief references) is illegal and could get us into trouble. Comments about the Conversation Board itself should be e-mailed to Bruce rather than posting them on the Board. To make this a better place for all visitors coming to explore Afterlife subjects (such as: dreams; OBEs; NDEs; beliefs; perception; and how the way we live our lives Here can affect our lives There) the staff of Afterlife-Knowledge.com will work our disappearing magic on any posts crossing too far over the line. Repeated offences will result in loss of posting privileges. Also intentional use of another User's name will result in immediate loss of posting privileges.
______


I have one more thing to say to you Don before I say too say my final goodbye.....

I have it from good source you have never forgiven yourself because your girlfriend committed suicide..you blamed yourself and continue to do so.
when and if you ever forgive yourself for what occurred, everything will change at that moment and your obes and dreams will reveal to you a greater reality and your journey will truly begin.

Forgive. you did not mean to hurt her, but it happened. she told you she's fine. but you will never believe this is true until you forgive yourself.


goodbye. alysia
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #92 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 4:36pm
 
Don,

Hmm, did I miss it, or did you just decide to not answer my questions again? 

I think you are feeling threatened by me and others Don.  The reason I say this is because your posts are obviously trying to pound your beliefs into the ground.  Who in his right mind would spend as much time as you do typing up all this stuff just because he feels it is his "pre-planned purpose"?  Give me a break. 

I am especially waiting to hear your response to my question about, what methods of retrieval or OBE of ES have you learned and tried and had experience with on your own that you can give us examples of to back up your obscession with this guy?  If he is so great, then have you tried his methods and found your own believable experiences? 

And excuse me for saying I'm offended!  This IS Bruce's site and I should hope that everyone here has been taught to respect others.  For goodness sake, Don, at least quit putting Bruce and his work down.  I have not been rude to you, I am only giving you what you are giving us.  You think we are afraid of having our beliefs challenged...well it seems you are the one who is afraid of having your beliefs challenged.  At least I am on my own search. You are only on a kick to debunk what others believe.

And about those poor souls you think are getting turned away here because Bruce or anyone else won't do retrievals for them upon demand...  It is my opinion that if someone doesn't get the answer they are looking for, it is not because people aren't being nice and helpful and giving.  It is because that person needs to keep searching.  Not everyone is in the same place in their search.  Not everyone is ready for the answers that are right in front of them.  Those people will come back when they are ready. 

Those who want to consult someone in the business of providing answers from beyond to help the grieving deal with their loss need to look to Sylvia Brown or James Van Praagh and others.  That is the kind of service they provide. 

I believe that the main purpose of this site and of Bruce's books was to prove to people that they have the ability to do their own searching, that it doesn't take a master psychic to communicate with the afterlife, that to find your own proof and truth is an easy process that anyone who is interested can learn.   
Don, you will never be able to debunk what other people believe they know, or what others know they have experienced, or what others experience because they aren't afraid to use their own consciousness to explore beyond the norm. 


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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #93 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 8:18pm
 
Amid all this bluster, three questions are worth answering:

(1) Yes, I think rational arguments about spirituality have often worked for me in the past and have even worked on this site.

(2) My method of OBEs and retrievals was a combination of self-hypnosis and a method of inducing lucid dreams.  I can recommend neither since my results were bogus.  But wow, were they vivid and emotional.  I was great fun knowing that I was enjoying a colorful world, while my body was "back there" sleeping--fun until I started to worry about whether I could safely return to my body!

(3) No, I am no shill for Swedenborg.  In fact, I disagree with him in crucial ways.  But I'm so in awe of what the man DOES HAVE to teach me that I'm not interested in expressing my differences.  I only wish I could find and study under a modern Swedenborg.  Hopefully, one will arise.  I doubt I'm up to the task of fulfilling that role myself.
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #94 - Sep 14th, 2005 at 10:41pm
 
Someone in this thread asked why Don stays and he answered that he stays because others have asked him.

I know that many will not believe it to be so, but I know it is true. I have occasionally posted on this board for 5-6 years and I also have had feedback from individuals thanking me for those posts. Just this week, an individual wrote me an email telling me how grateful they were to see Don's posts.

Many grievers stop by this site - for help. I have personally corresponded for over a year now with one individual whose spouse committed suicide. The survivor wrote a heartfelt plea for help at this site - and no one answered this person either by post or private email. I didn't know about his plea for help at this site since sometimes I spend months away from this website. The individual then found my website and I immediately answered as I know how desparate the grieving are to have assurances that life after life is true. Then I was told of the plea for help at this site that went unanswered.

I have also corresponded with another individual now for 5 years who was suicidal when visiting this board. This individual was taunted at this website - and one of you nearly dared this person to commit suicide as it would only mean that he/she would have to reincarnate again. I personally saw the post and it was truly dreadful. I privately emailed this individual then and we began corresponding and I am happy to report that the person is out of depression and out of danger (and has been for about 4 years).

I too wish Don would be more careful in his choice of words that he has directed at others.  I appreciate his well-researched posts; I just wish he wouldn't fall into the trap of lashing out at others. Having said that, I also know that others have lashed out at Don and that's not right either.

I feel sorry for those who are ignorant of what Don is doing here.  I know that the ones who have posted for him to leave don't have the clue as to the help he has been to those who have privately emailed. I know that I've had at least 2 people who asked for help at this site tell me that I stopped them from committing suicide, and how spiritually ill and despondent they became over the treatment (or non-treatment) they received at this board. You people don't have a clue... not a clue why Don and I are really here.

I try to stay out of these scuffles... but I tell you truly that this board has collectively failed to help at least a few individuals that I know about who were in desparate need of but a few comforting words. I give God all thanks that these people were somehow put into either Don's path or my own.

If you don't like Don's posts and mine as well, just don't read them...

May the Lord bless you and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord show you his favor and give you his peace.


With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #95 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 7:16am
 
Judith said:  “I too wish Don would be more careful in his choice of words that he has directed at others.  I appreciate his well-researched posts; I just wish he wouldn't fall into the trap of lashing out at others. Having said that, I also know that others have lashed out at Don and that's not right either.”


I, too, appreciate the work Don puts into his posts.  And he has some very good things to say as well.  An example of this is his answer to Roger’s two questions.  This is the kind, loving and gentle person I see in Don.  This is who Don really is.


Roger,

Now I guess I'll tackle your two questions posed on p. 3 , reply #45 of  this thread:

(1) "Why do you suppose Jesus chose Storm to receive all this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter."
_________________________________________

In the Gospels, Peter often puts his foot in his mouth.  For example, when Jesus approaches the fishing disciples by walking on the Sea of Galilee, Peter brashly assumes he can do the same, but immediately panics and sinks.  When Jesus finally announces His mission of death by crucifixion, Peter draws a rebuke for refusing to accept Jesus' destiny.  Peter fails the ultimate character test when he is confronted in the high priest's courtyard after Jesus' arrest.   To escape, Peter throws a vulgar tantrum and denies having anything to do with Jesus.  Jesus has predicted this denial, and yet, still chooses to label Peter "the rock" on which He will build His church.    

Christianity is a religion of grace and gratitude, not merit.  Prior to his NDE, Howard Storm was a shallow, selfish atheist.  Storm was militantly anti-Christian.  Who could better serve as a flawed instrument of Christ's grace--like Peter.  Storm needs a lot of time to grow in grace just like the rest of us. I love the way Paul illustrates this principle in his description of the church as the corporate body of Christ:

"Some of the parts that seem weakest and the least important are really the most necessary.  And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. . .So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity.  This makes for harmony among all the members, so that all the members care for each other equally (1 Corinthians 12:22-25)."

I'm reminded of a turning point in my life.  As a teenager, I wanted to be a lawyer.  My father sang in the choir; so I had to go to church an hour early.  A retarded man named Bernie was in the same predicament; so he and I talked a lot.  I never realized how much Bernie appreciated this until one evening when he approached me with tears in his eyes and exclaimed, "Don, I've been praying for you and God has shown me that you are destined to become a theologian!"  I was dumbfounded by his sudden display of uncharacteristic articulateness.  It was as it the voice of God was speaking to me through this retarded fellow.  I think Bernie's prophetic word to me changed my life.

I'm also reminded of Brother Hart.  He was a minister that no church seemed to want as a speaker.  So he had to speak at a smelly rescue mission in my home town (Winnipeg, Canada), where drunks had to sit through a service to get fed.  Yet he was more gifted as a healer than far more famous Christian preachers.   

My mother and brother attended one of his services.  He picked my mother out of the crowd and announced, "Sister, you are in pain from calcium deposits in your shoulder."  [true] "The Lord has just healed you."   [also true].  Then he turned to my brother and said, "You have pain from kidney problems."  My brother was just about to deny this when Brother Hart added: "The symptom of this is a stabbing pain in the small of your back."  [true]  "Well, God has just healed you."  [also true.]

After the service, my Mom approached Hart in the parking lot.  He turned to her and said, "You are worried about your son back in the States."  [true!  it was me!]  "You think he's gotten too liberal!"  [Sigh!  Oh how true!]  Hart then paused, smiled, and added, "Well, I think he's just fine.  Don't worry."  Hart had never met any of my family before.  When I came home that Christmas, my mother lectured me on my liberal tendencies.  I reminded her of Hart's prophetic assurance.  Mom replied, "Oh, what does he know?!!!"

(2) "Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  have you changed any behavior as a result?"

I was most affected by the role of angels after his NDE in saving him from certain death.  Storm was badly neglected in that Parisian hospital.  U.S. doctors would later tell Storm he should have died within 4 hours of his stomach rupture.  Yet in the darkness, his hospital room would suddenly light up and an angel dressed as a young doctor would assure him that he'd be taken care of.  Then the room darkened again.  An angel eventually encourages Storm to get on a plane and go home, though he is still in critical condition and should not survive the long flight.  Then he is overwhelmed by the angels he sees in his first church service.  When he visits the cemetery where the famous Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton, is buried, Merton returns from the dead and hands Storm a book of his poetry in full view of Storm's new pastor who is seated on a nearby bench.  Then Merton vanishes.  Additional angelic apparitions follow and infuse Storm with a profound experience of heavenly love.

So what difference does all this make in my life?  I don't know.  But I have a new reason to practice with my Gateway tapes.  I no longer care whether I experience a genuine OBE.  But I'd love to enter an altered state where I can receive a loving angelic encounter.  My life has been saved by inner warnings and I've had many death premonitions that came true.  But none of these experiences filled me with the kind of love that Storm receives from his visual angelic encounters.

Don   


The only problem I see is ego working here.  Letting go of ego is what we all are working on.  I equate ego with the old saying… “The Devil made me do it.”  Ego is the part of us that makes us believe we are separate from God and leads us to creating all of our fears.  Fear leads us to think, do and say some awful things.

Don, whenever you feel threatened, (and this is true for all of us) you lash out at the whole board by bringing up the Moen/Monroe thing.  I think you have done this three different times since I’ve been frequenting this board.  And each time you pretty much start a war.  You do this intentionally when someone says something that angers you.  Anger covers the pain that is caused from a deeper fear.  Your fear in this is a fear of rejection.  Because of this fear, you interpret something someone says as rejection and perhaps even before you feel the pain of being hurt, you lash out and immediately cover the pain with viscous anger.  You feel pain; therefore you are going to make everyone else feel pain as well.  In this way, you make yourself feel powerful, but it is a false power. 

The true power is the power of God, which is love.  As a biblical scholar, you intellectually know what Jesus taught that love is.  You even feel this love in your heart to a certain extent.  This extent is only to the degree that your ego will allow you to feel it.  This sweetness is within you and you truly can multiply it in such an awesome way.  You told Roger that you’d love to enter an altered state and have a loving, angelic encounter.  Yes, this is a truly wonderful experience, but the truth is that you and everyone else can experience this same angelic love within their self each and every single day. 

Why?  Because God’s love is within each of us.  We have only covered it up with our fears and our pain.  When we (and we do this slowly) release our fears and the pain these cause us, we begin to feel this sweet, sweet love all of the time. 

Don, I say this to you with all the love in my heart and hope that you can feel this in my words.  You are one of us here on this board in which each of us has chosen as a vehicle of learning.  You are one with me and with everyone and everything else.  To see and feel this in our everyday relationships… all we need do is reach beyond the duality of this world.

With much love,
Kathy   
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #96 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 7:18am
 
Thanks Judy for truly a first class post and for elevating this thread.  No name calling, no sniping, no snide comments about someone else's character. 

In fact, for a board whose members send "pure, unconditional love" to one another, it's breathtaking how quickly all of that "love" turns to backbiting and snap judgments about a fellow human being who, like all of us, is looking for answers.  It turns out that this love is not so unconditional after all.  And shame on the board member who actually went so far as to claim Don was responsible for the board crashing a while ago.  That's not only shameful, it's just plain wacky.

This board is called "Afterlife Knowledge."  It's ironic that Don is criticized for his admittedly lengthy posts on the one person, Swedenborg, who researched and wrote more about the afterlife than any other person, living or dead.  Not only that, ES' information was obtained via firsthand visits to the afterlife, not from books other people had written. 

Again, for those who think this whole controversy is about "supporting Don", you miss the point entirely.  Forget Don.  What's going on here is a clash of egos, nothing more nothing less.  And Don himself got caught up in it.  I'm not excusing anyone.  We are all guilty of this.  On this point, ACIM is right on target.  It's an attack of competing egos.  And as such it is a waste of energy and focus.

What's important is to remember why you're on the Board to begin with.  I suspect some of you have decided you don't like Swedenborg because you don't like Don.  So you're content to toss out the baby with the bathwater.  I've read some of ES' works and if you choose to ignore him that's your loss. 

I for one wish that Bruce would resume his active participation on the board. 

 





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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #97 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 9:10am
 
Dear Friends,

I decided to come back and add to my post earlier this morning.

There is not one of us, including me who is able to love with perfect unconditional love. 

We all live in a world that cultivates separation.  Wherever there is the experience of pain or negativity, we can know that we are aligned with our ego, which is not who we really are. 

Wherever there is free flowing love, we can know that we are aligned with the greater God that each of us is.

Since we partake in this world of duality, it is difficult for us to love unconditionally on a constant basis.  And this is where forgiveness comes into play.  First by forgiving self as self knows this already.  To the degree that we are able to love and forgive self, it is to that same degree that we are able to love and forgive others.

In this moment I love each and every one who posts on this board unconditionally.  I pray that I will always be able to get beyond my ego and show perfect love in all that I do.

Love to all,
Kathy
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Re: fear or love
Reply #98 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 10:04am
 
Hi Kathy..I like your posts but then we align pretty well. everyone, Kat and I have met out there. I don't need to prove it. she is a delight to me and to many others. I like just about everyone, I can see good in just about everyone. like Kathy says, if we loved unconditionally 24/7, well, we certainly would be like Jesus wouldn't we? and as you might guess, if we were doing that we would soon be out of here just like Him.
I think we need to know which voice we are listening to: ego or higher self, Christ consciousness.
ego will tend to find divisions and responds from a sense of superiority and/or fear, to protect something, to be defensive. it will also respond from a sense of inferiority. To achieve a balanced state of being here we need to listen to both voices and choose which voice we will respond from. I want to see the good in all, so I respond in that direction. this is how we can be creating of our own reality which rubs off those around us. to me this is being one-pointed and not to be distracted by all the noise in the world with all the opinions. necessarily I must be one-pointed in what I wish to see and create for myself. I want only peace of mind...that seems to be the greatest wish of all mankind also. to maintain your center amid great upheavals. if you can maintain your center, then no matter what happens outside of you, you will be as a beakon of light for others simply because you are a safe harbor. It's hard to lash out at others when you look into their face and see your own reflection there. It's true what Kathy said about Peter of the bible. another book gives this example is Blinded by the Light. another atheist who had a profound NDE, like Howard Storm. It seems God will take the most miserable vocal atheist among us, turn them completely 180 degrees and make this one a spokesperson for the beauty and peace that awaits us in truth. maybe because this one knows about hell and has been there on the bottom of it all. we should listen to these who encounter angels of light simply because they are saying that they have climbed up from degradation and now they are free. I can feel the truth while others here can see the truth, still others can hear the truth and so it goes, everyone wants to belong and give their gift whatever that is.
it is time for us to allow forgiveness and PUL to reveal itself on an even greater scale within the whole of mankind, not just individually, but we are here together and thats how we bring in the shift in consciousness, together. but first, we look within to see if we have done harm to another by our thoughts towards that other. if u say, this one is less, therefore I am more, that is judgment and this judgment is not yours to make. we are like prodigal sons in that regard, and even though you sqaunder all your gifts and come back home busted, still guess who welcomes you? guess who judges you? no one. God throws a party for the prodigal son instead, while the faithful son who stayed in the kingdom grows resentful that he should not be the favored son. the son who remained home by the side of God represents the ego who believes he is "more" than the son who went forth and got his own ego busted. the busted one came home because he had nowhere else to go. and thats us. we got nowhere else to go but up. we've pretty much been on the bottom so many times it's getting a little redundant folks...choose this day who you will serve...fear or love, God or the devil if that is your belief, peace or war, joy or despair, ego division or unity of purpose within kindness and truth and don't be like the one who lies on his deathbed lamenting that he did not finish whatever his task was in coming here. but even if it turns out that way, that you did not do what u came here for and finish, you will still be loved, you will still be embraced by the Light. I think that was the name of the book Embraced by the light.
the author was talking on the phone during a storm..hee..I wouldn't try this if I were you...and a bolt of lightening struck his phone line...(God?) he subsequently had his NDE. what a way to get enlightened! Cheesy  we've a ways to go lads and lasses but the skift is seaworthy, talking about this forum, talking about all of life. love and light and please enjoy your day...it was always meant to be enjoyed as a gift. alysia
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #99 - Sep 15th, 2005 at 4:00pm
 
I can't believe my eyes.  A thread is started about a pioneer in exploring the Afterlife, a reasoned, academic summary of the writings of a scholarly person who is all about "questioning the experiences, wonderings & ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life".  At first there is minimal response, except from one thoughtful & reasoning individual, & then there is a barrage.  I am one of those people who have been in private correspondence with Don, a kind, empathic, scholarly, ernest, giving individual, who occasionally is mischievous & too easily baited. 

A regluar poster who refrained from joining in on the flaming of a chrstian fundamentalist (who I personally found annoying, but live & let live) is now bidding Don good bye  while bellttling his "obsession with ES" & giving a patronizing lecture on plagarizing.  Another poster who admists to being too bored to read the thread is accusing Don of feeling threatened.  Another poster makes the paranoid assertion that Don is singlehandedly responslible for the crash of the board & the real scary part is her implication that a lot of board members agree. 

The reason I became a member of the board is that a little over a year ago my 19 yr old daughter, Ingrid, died.  Right now there is a heartbreaking case in my town of an 18 yr old girl missing for 5 days; a high school girl who never came home after her late evening shift at a part job at a fast food restaurant.  This website is called "afterlife Knowledge" which attracted me to it in my extreme grief.  I  as a non religious, previously non spiritual person, have got a lot of comfort from writings about the existence of an afterlife, both from people like Swedenborg & from Bruce who has always given me the impression of being a tolerant & gentlemanly individual & from posters like Don & Judy Ebbe & others.    I have never presumed to attempt retrievals of strangers; I'm just grateful for any contact I may have with my daughter.   Accusing a benign, tolerant & knowledgeable person like  Don of EGO? (& a poster even accused him of fraudently representing himself).  I can't believe my eyes.  What are you people afraid of?
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #100 - Sep 16th, 2005 at 5:22am
 
People at the board,

I sincerely think it would be better if we were talking about our feelings related to our experiences in the afterlife-like, OBEs and so on. And if one needs help about a problem that one is going through, each one of us is free to try to help. We’re not obligated to know the right answer because we aren’t teachers we are students. And the authors Bruce, Monroe, ES gave us what they could, from now on it’s up to us.

Discussing about ideas is not the best thing to do here, showing the best thoughts we have about the main subject of the board it’s more important than judge them.

I no longer interested in ES, Monroe, Moen’S opinion But I still VERY interested in the opinion of all those who have posted here without exceptions.

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE

PS: This is a site were people shares similar concepts so if one is trying to convince people to change their minds regarding to such concept it's not the best place.
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« Last Edit: Sep 16th, 2005 at 7:53am by Kardec »  

My hope is to get there whatever does "there" mean...
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #101 - Sep 16th, 2005 at 7:38am
 
Hi Ellen,

First of all I want to let you know that I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.  I think everyone on this board knows the deep pain losing someone you love can bring.  I can also identify with the fear and worry you and everyone in your town is going through with the missing girl.  Just a few weeks ago a fast food restaurant where my daughter worked as a manager was robbed.  (She has since quit because of a disagreement with the owner.)  Two of her employees were jumped as they left and held at gun point.  Thankfully, no one was physically injured, but the emotional factors can remain for a very long time.

I don't have the time to do a lot of reading and posting on this board, but I do pop in as often as I can and like you, I have gained much insight from a lot of Don's posts that I have read.  I hold a high respect for him and meant no disrespect to him or anyone else in my posts regarding ego. 

We all have ego and this is not a "bad" thing.  It is just the way we are.  From my perspective, our ego is what leads us to believe that we are separate from God which creates a lot of fear in us.  Ego leads us to believe we are unworthy of God's love, but that is not true.  Everyone is not only worthy of God's love, we are God's love deep inside of us.  Our ego just makes us think otherwise. 

Letting go of the beliefs we have learned from ego is a way in which we can reunite our entire being with the love of God.  The kind of love that brings us all together with kindness, gentleness, understanding and patience.  I think this kind of love is so much more than just feeling; it's more like a state of being.  This kind of love is the most sweetest, most precious expression and feeling that I can possibly imagine.  So to me it's worth working at letting go of our ego so that we can experience this sweetness that ego covers up sometimes.

Love, Kathy    
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #102 - Sep 16th, 2005 at 8:22am
 
Dear Kathy:
Point taken about the ego thing.    I was just shocked at how suddenly posters went into attack mode almost en masse, & since Don has been  kind & helpful to me, I'm afraid my ego flared up too.  I think Rog B's posting sums it up best.  Thank you for your kind words.
Ellen
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #103 - Sep 17th, 2005 at 7:00pm
 
ES ON CORRESPONDENCE: THE KEY TO DIVINATION

ES writes: "The whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural world not just in general, but in detail. So whatever arises in the natural world out of the spiritual one is called `something that corresponds' (HH 89-90)."

A. HOW TO KILL WITH ASTROLOGY:

This aspect of correspondence might explain the various types of divination.  The most fascinating (if ghastly) radio interview I ever heard was with astrologer Jack Gillam.  At the birth of his son, Jack noted a "death aspect" on his son's horoscope that would become effective on the boy's 3rd birthday.  When this birthday arrived, Jack's wife kept the boy in the kitchen to keep an eye on him.  But when the phone rang, she got distracted and the child toddled out of the house, crawled through a hole in the fence, and headed for an apartment block next door.  The little boy fell into the outdoor swimming pool.  A 12-year-girl by the pool could easily have saved him, but she ran off screaming and so he  drowned. 

Psychiatrist Carl Jung did a study of astrological compatibility between couples.  He found that the predicted astrological correlation clearly confirmed their compatibility. Years later, Jung had second thoughts about these results.  Why should planetary relationships have anything to do with love?  He tried to replicate his earlier study.  This time he found no correlation between planetary configuration and romantic compatibility.  So why the difference?  Apparently, Jung's open curiosity in the first study attracted to him just those people whose horoscopes would create the illusion of  astrological validity.  Jung calls this synchronicity.
In my view, Jack Gillam's belief in death aspects worked like black magic attracting the event that he most feared.  His son's premature death was no doubt facilitated by influxes from negative spirits.

B. MY SPECTACULAR CARD READING:

When I was in grad school, I reluctantly agreed to take my date to the New England flower show.  Quickly bored, I noted two card readers sitting at a table.  One read regular playing cards and charged $5; the other read Tarot cards and charged $35.  I had never had a card reading before and didn't really believe in it.  So I chose the cheaper reading.

The reader asked me to draw 3 cards.  The cards looked like a lousy poker hand to me.  Then she told me 4 things: (1) I should dump the gal I brought to the show.  This amused me because my date had sneered at the readers when she passed them and I took this advice as the reader's revenge.  But the reader was right: we were incompatible.  (2) Then the reader told me I had serious issues with women.  My ex-girlfriend, Janet, had recently committed suicide, but this comment seemed too vague to impress me.  (3) Next, she told me I was good with children and implied that I'd be working with them very soon.  This seemed absurd to me.  I was working on my doctoral thesis and had no time for kids.  (4) Finally, she told me that in the next few days I'd be receiving a job offer from an exotic place, but that I should not accept it.  I dismissed this too because I hadn't even applied for a job.  When the reading was over, I'm sure she thought I viewed her as a fake.

The next week, I got a call from my thesis advisor asking me about an overdue chapter of my thesis.  While I made excuses, he told me he was the commissioner of the Arlington Youth Soccer Federation and that he needed a coach for an under-12 boys team.  He knew I'd played soccer in Canada and asked me if I'd do it.  How could I say no to my thesis advisor?  I felt manipulated and thought I'd hate it.  In fact, the 3 years I coached those boys were one of the highlites of my life.  I had never been married, but those boys became like the sons I would never have.  The next year we were undefeated and made it to the county championship game which we lost 2-1.  So the reader was absolutely correct about point (3).

Two days after the reading, I received an odd call from a professor in Newfoundland.  He asked me if I'd be willing to come and teach in his university there.  I was dumbfounded because I hadn't applied for the job. I reluctantly turned it down because I wasn't close to finishing my thesis.  The reader had said I'd immediately get a job offer from an "exotic" place that I should turn down!   Newfoundland seems pretty exotic to me. So the reader's fourth point proved absolutely amazing!

So how did my bad poker hand yield such spectacular clairvoyance?  For the same reason that Gillam's death aspect proved true.  I'll quote Van Dusen's Swedenborgian perspective (p. 185):

"Astrology is an example of correspondence between the inner person and planetary configurations.  The ancients had a whole host of ways of trying to divine the future and find evidence by the arrangement of material things: the fall of cards (Tarot), tea leaves, yarrow sticks (I Ching), cracked bones, etc.  Usually these systems required a considerable amount of interpretation that allowed some projection of inner processes."

I'm puzzled by several aspects of ES's principle of correspondence.  But he seems to have identified a spiritual principle that can can be both beneficial and a source of devastating evil.  I wish I had a better handle on this principle.

Don



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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #104 - Sep 18th, 2005 at 6:48am
 
Hi Don,

Let me give this a shot.  I’m speaking only from my experiences and the interpretation I have given to my experience.  I also feel that sometimes I’m not able to express in words adequately enough to get my meaning across, so feel free to ask questions and I’ll try to explain better.

(Don) Quote: ES writes: "The whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural world not just in general, but in detail. So whatever arises in the natural world out of the spiritual one is called `something that corresponds' (HH 89-90)."


First let me say that I believe the universal field of energy or Universal Force is creative (forever changing and expanding) and has “intent” as an intricate aspect built into it.  It is neutral in terms of what we call good and evil or what I usually call love and fear only because this is my personal preference.  All of our human concepts of God are this Force.  Even the negativity we humans co-create and manifest is done so by this Force.  This Force is also where our deeper intention (God within) exists.  The reason I equate Universal Force and God is because it makes sense to me when considering the meaning of infinite.  There can only be one infinite Creative Force because if there were more than one then each would negate the other and no infinite could exist if that were the case.  I would say that the Creative Force is the “something that corresponds” in the ES quote.  It is something that is so intricate within us that we don’t always know it exists and that we are it.


(Don) Quote:  “Apparently, Jung's open curiosity in the first study attracted to him just those people whose horoscopes would create the illusion of  astrological validity.  Jung calls this synchronicity.
In my view, Jack Gillam's belief in death aspects worked like black magic attracting the event that he most feared.  His son's premature death was no doubt facilitated by influxes from negative spirits.”


Yes, I agree attraction is at work here in both cases, but with no “negative spirits” as separate entities involved.  This has only been a way for us to understand and explain our creations of fear.  In one way or another we are always in synchronicity with the Universal Creative Force (UCF) because we cannot be separated from it… it is us!  This is a huge concept for us to try to grasp.  Gillam’s fearful belief set the UCF in action and attracted what he most feared, but only in the sense that he intuited (perhaps unconsciously) that his son would have a “premature” death and since he didn’t understand the nature of the UCF he created his fear.  His fear is not what caused or “attracted” his son’s death.  There can be no blame or condemnation in any sense because each of us is responsible for self and self-only. 

His son chose to leave on his own accord… we all do.  We choose the moment to be born and we choose the moment to die.  Actually Consciousness chooses but we have trouble understanding this because of the dualism we are experiencing.  When we are born in human form, we experience death as a spiritual being and when we experience human death, we are born as a spiritual being.  We are always in control because we are one with our total Consciousness even when we as humans don’t see and understand this.  We are never separated from the Consciousness of God / UCF. 

The intricacies of our understanding of this are still very subtle, because we have only just begun to understand the nature of UCF working in our everyday lives.  This is where our cross-purposes come into play that I mentioned when I posted a few weeks ago.  I think it was Mathew’s thread (Doc?) about intention.  I think a key concept to understand is unity.  At any given moment UCF is concentrated at the point of whatever we focus our attention on and when we think of parts of things, we lose the concept of unity.  It’s very difficult for us to hold a concept of unity because of the deep-seated belief in separation we all have.  At the times that we are able to do this, we are able to have a clearer picture of how UCF works as we go about living and co-creating our lives.

Love and light,
Kathy

P.S.  Don, I’d be interested in hearing about some of the things ES says that you disagree with if you’d like to share some of these… just out of curiosity to see if anything jives with me or not.
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