I haven't been following this thread and it is too much info to inhale at one sitting....


but Don, sweetie, I want to call, you Herr Dr Professor Berserk, or at least Berserk Professor, there is always something in your writings that makes me want to shake you and say, you can't see the forest if you just focus on the trees.

I think you are missing something because you keep getting caught up in all these petty little details about Bruce and Ram and who is in whose disc type stuff. I don't know what it is, but you wouldn't get caught up in the details if you had some other kind of experience. I'm not sure what....I am reminded of Lawrence LeShan's description of being told he was missing something so he went and sat in some great European cathedrals until he got it. (The Medium, the Mystic, and the Physicist). I'm not a mystic and I don't know what it is, that is missing, but something does not ring true when you have to argue about these details.

Swedenborg is pretty interesting, but he died before the Declaration of Independence was written. (and as far as his chemistry goes, heck, he never had to study quantum mechanics. heck, baking soda hadn't even been invented when he was around. What does he know). His line of thought belongs to another age.

Quote:


I truly mean no personal offence but your comments are laughable.  Swedenborg was one of the most gifted scientists of his age and his achievements were nothing short of extraordinary. Many (I concede not all) of his findings still hold true today.

You might find this quotation link from Victor Zammit's website to be interesting reading:

Interestingly he put forward a view of the universe which is remarkably similar to twentieth century quantum physics. At a time when Newton was arguing that matter was composed of impenetrable atoms which were given motion by outside forces, Swedenborg taught that it was made up of a series of particles in ascending order of size, each of which was composed of a closed vortex of energy which spiraled at infinite speeds to give the appearance of solidity.
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter02.html

If you search on Google, you will find thousands of webpages on Swedenborg and science; Swedenborg and quantum physics.

To Lucy I wish to make 4 points:
(1) I like being called "Sweetie."  Janet called me that when I retrieved her during my passionate OBE.  Unfortunately, I later reluctantly rejected this OBE as bogus wishful thinking. 

(2) Spookie is basing a whole theory on an mistranslation of UJ.  At Harvard languages were part of my specialty as a teaching fellow.  I can tolerate debate, but not a linguistic faux pas.  Grrr!  My own typos drive me absolutely bonkers!

(3) Sometimes the trees are more interesting than the forest.  Forests can get pretty creepy!

(4) As for mystical experiences, I'd wager I've had more than even Bruce Moen, just no genuine astral projection. 

George, the "nephilim" who impregnate human women in Genesis 6 may well have been what you term "aliens." In any case, both ES and Howard Storm have astral experiences that put them in touch with Jesus and both learn that there is abundant life on other planets.  What do you want?

Roger and Marilyn,

When I pastored two Methodist churches in the Finger Lakes region of New York, Joey was a 3rd grader whose mother was dying from acute diabetes.  The family was a basket case and I wanted Joey to be able to escape from the horror into his imagination.  So I told him I was really Zorg, an alien, and that my saucer was concealed in the incredibly large horse barn behind the parsonage.  Joey even organized a search party of of his little buddies to find the secret trap door.  When I babysat Joey and his pals and had to feed them, I made sure that they had never tasted any of the food before (exotic tropical fruits, etc.).  When the kids asked about the odd food, I told them they had to eat what I ate back on my own planet.  When I drove the kids home, I acted terrified at being buzzed  by flying saucers angry at me for socializing with humans.  There were always small planes and choppers around to feed this allusion.  When Joey moved, I told him that the real reason his Dad moved was that Zygon had lasered his old house into a pile of rubble.  One Sunday Joey made his Dad drive several miles out of his way to confirm that old house was still there.

Then I hit the jackpot.  A police detective and I took Joey and his pals to a Rochester American hockey game.  What we didn't know was that a very large derigible flying saucer floated around the rink before the game and between periods.  I tipped off the adults to my alien act and we acted terrified that the jig was up.  The aliens' search for Joey was over and now, boy, would he pay.  The saucer would beam us up and perform medical experiments on us.  Joey was astounded that the saucer was real after all!  So Marilyn and Roger, if you want to know anything about alien abductions, I'm you man. 

Don

Beserk:

You really like to go beserk with your long logical arguments.

I found that experience means much more than thinking logically about something over and over again. Logic fails people quite often.

I don't believe that you can tell what is in Robert Monroe's or Bruce Moen's heart by thinking about it logically.

I also don't believe that you can tell what's in God's heart by thinking about it logically.

As long a person allows his or herself to be controlled by fear, he or she might even have a hard time seeing what's in his or her own heart.


P.S. The longest logical argument ever, can't come close to the shortest moment of love.

Beserk:

As far as I know, I can't contact a person's deceased relative. That doesn't mean that I haven't done retrievels.

It probably isn't a matter of what "can" be done. Rather It's a matter of what "needs" to be done. It would be false to claim that before a person can help a lost spirit with a retrievel, they first have to have the ability to contact deceased relatives at will. Perhaps it is more a matter of what is needed. If somebody from the spirit World needs somebody from the physical World to help them with a retrievel, what difference does it matter whether the person who helps them has the ability to contact deceased relatives at will? It's irrelevant.

Regarding the validity of Bruce's imagination technique, the understanding of how such a technique could work comes more from an intuition of how it could work, rather than trying to figure it out intellectually.

It seems as if you are making the assumption that people helped Bruce out simply because they're a bunch of brain dead culties. Are you certain about this? Perhaps they helped him purely out of the love in their heart.  Sometimes people do help each other out of love. You can't assume that because Guru A rips people off, that everybody else does the same. And as far as Bruce contacting deceased relatives, it's a mistake to assume that before a person can have any metaphysical abilities at all, they have to have every metaphysical ability there is.

I've never met Bruce, so I can't say anything about him. But I'm not going to assume that he's a fraud without knowing him. If anything, much of what I've read in his books matches my own experience.

Well, that's it for me. I don't believe that there's a point to debating things endlessly. In the end each person needs to do what they feel is right. Out of respect I will read any rebuttal you might have. Therefore, I guess, you get the last word. 

P.S. I don't know about Swedenborg's contention that everybody has 2 positive guides, and 2 negative guides. I doubt that God has set things up so that we constantly have to battle with forces of evil. It's more a matter of a spirit working on itself.

I want to know why I or anyone else*should imagine ES knew what he was talking about. I can't imagine that his records were really verified to Randi's standards given the time frame in which they were produced. I have no logical reason to accept that the records of ES's activities are accurate. I think someone just made it up. It isn't unheard of for historical records to be "bent".

just for the record: disciples of Bruce???followers of Bruce??? ROFLOL!!!!!!such language!


* you left off the "else". For one so linguistically persnickety, that is a strange omission. In fact, it occurs to me that I have no reason to believe that you are what you say you are. Harvard, schmarvard.

Recoverer,

As expected, you make unwarranted assumptions about me.  I make no assumptions about Bruce's conscious motives.  And I assume that donations were made out of the goodness of people's hearts.  But your attempt to divorce retrievals from the need for replication and verification is cultic and cannot be masked by appeals to intuition or lofty motives.  And it is simply dishonest for you to ignore the consistency and quality of ES's verifications that underpin his astral claims, especially when Moen and Monroe suffer so much by comparison.  Intuition is no substitute for logic.

Bruce and practioners of his method have been asked by longtime members of this site to perform personal retrievals that might be of great emotional benefit to them.  If such retrievals were verified, Bruce would acquire the wealth and fame needed to spread his message to millions.  I fault him not for being incapable of doing so, but for creating the impression that he or the petitioner could readily do so.  Regular Swedenborgian calibre verifications would encourage millions to buy his books and seek mastery over his methodology.  ES has set the standard for what can be done if one's astral gift is genuine.  If the petitioners in question were satisfied by Moen's verification of contact with their loved ones, I would gladly pay the travel expenses and registration fees to do his course and actively promote his gift.   In this regard, the silence is deafening in response to Fuzzy Quark's $2,000 challenge.

Don

Roger,

Now I guess I'll tackle your two questions posed on p. 3 , reply #45 of  this thread:

(1) "Why do you suppose Jesus chose Storm to receive all this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter."
_________________________________________

In the Gospels, Peter often puts his foot in his mouth.  For example, when Jesus approaches the fishing disciples by walking on the Sea of Galilee, Peter brashly assumes he can do the same, but immediately panics and sinks.  When Jesus finally announces His mission of death by crucifixion, Peter draws a rebuke for refusing to accept Jesus' destiny.  Peter fails the ultimate character test when he is confronted in the high priest's courtyard after Jesus' arrest.   To escape, Peter throws a vulgar tantrum and denies having anything to do with Jesus.  Jesus has predicted this denial, and yet, still chooses to label Peter "the rock" on which He will build His church.   

Christianity is a religion of grace and gratitude, not merit.  Prior to his NDE, Howard Storm was a shallow, selfish atheist.  Storm was militantly anti-Christian.  Who could better serve as a flawed instrument of Christ's grace--like Peter.  Storm needs a lot of time to grow in grace just like the rest of us. I love the way Paul illustrates this principle in his description of the church as the corporate body of Christ:

"Some of the parts that seem weakest and the least important are really the most necessary.  And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. . .So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity.  This makes for harmony among all the members, so that all the members care for each other equally (1 Corinthians 12:22-25)."

I'm reminded of a turning point in my life.  As a teenager, I wanted to be a lawyer.  My father sang in the choir; so I had to go to church an hour early.  A retarded man named Bernie was in the same predicament; so he and I talked a lot.  I never realized how much Bernie appreciated this until one evening when he approached me with tears in his eyes and exclaimed, "Don, I've been praying for you and God has shown me that you are destined to become a theologian!"  I was dumbfounded by his sudden display of uncharacteristic articulateness.  It was as it the voice of God was speaking to me through this retarded fellow.  I think Bernie's prophetic word to me changed my life.

I'm also reminded of Brother Hart.  He was a minister that no church seemed to want as a speaker.  So he had to speak at a smelly rescue mission in my home town (Winnipeg, Canada), where drunks had to sit through a service to get fed.  Yet he was more gifted as a healer than far more famous Christian preachers. 

My mother and brother attended one of his services.  He picked my mother out of the crowd and announced, "Sister, you are in pain from calcium deposits in your shoulder."  [true] "The Lord has just healed you."   [also true].  Then he turned to my brother and said, "You have pain from kidney problems."  My brother was just about to deny this when Brother Hart added: "The symptom of this is a stabbing pain in the small of your back."  [true]  "Well, God has just healed you."  [also true.]

After the service, my Mom approached Hart in the parking lot.  He turned to her and said, "You are worried about your son back in the States."  [true!  it was me!]  "You think he's gotten too liberal!"  [Sigh!  Oh how true!]  Hart then paused, smiled, and added, "Well, I think he's just fine.  Don't worry."  Hart had never met any of my family before.  When I came home that Christmas, my mother lectured me on my liberal tendencies.  I reminded her of Hart's prophetic assurance.  Mom replied, "Oh, what does he know?!!!"

(2) "Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  have you changed any behavior as a result?"
________________________________________

I was most affected by the role of angels after his NDE in saving him from certain death.  Storm was badly neglected in that Parisian hospital.  U.S. doctors would later tell Storm he should have died within 4 hours of his stomach rupture.  Yet in the darkness, his hospital room would suddenly light up and an angel dressed as a young doctor would assure him that he'd be taken care of.  Then the room darkened again.  An angel eventually encourages Storm to get on a plane and go home, though he is still in critical condition and should not survive the long flight.  Then he is overwhelmed by the angels he sees in his first church service.  When he visits the cemetery where the famous Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton, is buried, Merton returns from the dead and hands Storm a book of his poetry in full view of Storm's new pastor who is seated on a nearby bench.  Then Merton vanishes.  Additional angelic apparitions follow and infuse Storm with a profound experience of heavenly love.

So what difference does all this make in my life?  I don't know.  But I have a new reason to practice with my Gateway tapes.  I no longer care whether I experience a genuine OBE.  But I'd love to enter an altered state where I can receive a loving angelic encounter.  My life has been saved by inner warnings and I've had many death premonitions that came true.  But none of these experiences filled me with the kind of love that Storm receives from his visual angelic encounters.

Don