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Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection (Read 198854 times)
Lakeman
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #210 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 9:06pm
 
“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .”

I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy. And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death. But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying. 
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Berserk2
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #211 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 1:34am
 
[Lakewood:] "Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying." 

Excellent post!  But shamanism evolves over time like every spiritual tradition and has no literary legacy to document the stages of its evolution.  So there is no evidence for your claim.  Still, I am nitpicking because you are probably correct.  So I merely call ES the father of astral projection due to his unique gift for outstanding verifications and his literary legacy.  My title is merely honorary and applies to his innovative role in Europe in the late 1700s. 

By the same token, many treat alleged modern soul retrievals as if this were a New Age innovation overlooked by the church.  In fact, the early church of the first two centuries taught this redemptive possibility and provided the first literary evidence for the doctrine of soul retrievals.  The Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice is a non-doctrinal parallel.  Again, I'm not prepared to credit Christianity with the first ever attempts at retrievals due to the possibility that shamans might sometimes have performed this role in the pre-Christian era.   
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DocM
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #212 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 7:35am
 
Lakeman, where have you been hiding?  Welcome.  You said more with a few sentences than some of us do in a few pages.  Fantastic post, but I digress.......

I agree with Lakeman that one could not fault "guardian spirits" for not intervening more during tragedy.  Sometimes tragedy stems from the simple laws of karma (action yields reaction).  It seems that while incarnate, we all live under some basic laws and rules.  I would speculate that if there are guardian spirits, they are there to provide more of a subtle insight or comfort on an emotional level and not come down to us in a blaze of light and celestial glory.  We are meant to choose for ourselves, but as the knight said in that Indiana Jones movie "choose wisely."

That shamans may have been projecting for thousands of years is an excellent point.   The tradition in certain cultures (perhaps Mayan, Aztec, etc.) may have been verbal and then lost to time.  Don brings up a good point in that Swedenborg methodically wrote down his experiences and then description of heaven and hell.

Of interest to me, although Swedenborg described the hypnogaugic state and dream interpretation as a key to his development, he did not (to my knowledge) write a "how to" guide for astral explorers.   In fact, he stated that through grace around age 53 or so, the spiritual world was opened to him.  Yet how would an interested reader follow him there?


M
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betson
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #213 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 9:48am
 
Hi

Doc Matthew says,"Yet how would an interested reader
follow him [Swedenborg]  there?"

I think that due to their personal motivations and their personal ability at describing an alternative realm,  they won't be able to convey it all. So I just get what I can and move on. I'll never be able to follow him (Swedenborg, Monroe, Moen] completely to his 'there.'

Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience. In these non-physical experiences there is always a personal element. The experience was given to an individual.
So I've quit trying to follow them there every step of 'their' way, but instead just get what i can and note how it compares to others' experiences, then move on. IFor me this approach eases the pressure to learn it all and ultimately I gain more.

Bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Seraphis1
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #214 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 11:37am
 
betson wrote on Nov 13th, 2010 at 9:48am:
Hi

Doc Matthew says,"Yet how would an interested reader
follow him [Swedenborg]  there?"

I think that due to their personal motivations and their personal ability at describing an alternative realm,  they won't be able to convey it all. So I just get what I can and move on. I'll never be able to follow him (Swedenborg, Monroe, Moen] completely to his 'there.'

Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience. In these non-physical experiences there is always a personal element. The experience was given to an individual.
So I've quit trying to follow them there every step of 'their' way, but instead just get what i can and note how it compares to others' experiences, then move on. IFor me this approach eases the pressure to learn it all and ultimately I gain more.

Bets


Hi Bets:

‘The greatest illusion of all is the mankind has limitations.’ Robert Monroe

I am a little surprised at your above statement. It suggests you accept limitations. The only barrier to the ‘there’ that Monroe, Kepple and Moen say is there is your ‘belief system structure’… dismantle that and you will punch through to another reality…

You say, ‘Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience.’

That is a limiting belief structure… it isn’t true…

S.
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Seraphis1
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #215 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 12:54pm
 
The Astral Mud

In order to understand this post you probably need to either read or be conversant with Michael Largo’s ‘God’s Lunatics’.

This in not a joke…!!

The key to the whole thing is this dynamic truth:

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’
There in is the potent and deadly rub as a barrier to finding the truth…

‘God’s Lunatics’ through the power of the mind manage to manifest and objectify their ‘insanities’ (I use this word with qualification… they look insane… or seem to be insane…) in the physical world to the astounishment of us all.

St. Genevieve the patron saint of Paris at the time of Attila the Huns investment of Paris told the frightened people of Paris to go into their homes pray and fast, she assured them that this would create a divine shield to protect Paris… Attila the Hun changed course and attacked Orleans in stead… what made Attila change course?

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’


Two Black men in the time when a black man could be hung by any white in the south… Sweet Daddy Grace, Father Divine… built huge congregations and died worth millions… with not only black followers but white followers.. Father Divine married his white secretary in a time when that was unheard of and could be punishable by death…

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’


The problem is ‘God’s Lunatics’ are affective and functionally potent… and simply get people tangled in the Astral Mud…

For the first time in recorded history Monroe, Moen and Kepple point to a vision beyond the astral mud and universal empowerment of the individual… all you have to do is aim high…

S.


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recoverer
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #216 - Nov 13th, 2010 at 2:56pm
 
Everybody has to die sometime, and in some way, so perhaps on some occasions divine intervention doesn't take place because it is intended that a person dies somehow and at some time.

I used to have lower back, upper back, and neck pain, and I got rid of them with assistance from my spirit guidance.

There are plenty of occasions when people receive assistance from there spirit helpers, so it is inaccurate to say what is so based on deaths and such that do happen.

The only way to truly find out what it is like to be in contact with divine helpers, is to make contact. Other wise a person is dealing with experience lacking conclusions.

If a person makes statements about spirit helpers without having experience, and then later makes contact and finds what it is really like, he (or she) will see how off base he was with his first statements.

I'd rather be a liar or deluded than inexperienced, thankfully I am neither. If the first part of this sounds like an odd thing to say, perhaps it will give you an idea of how it seems for person who has experienced something when people who haven't experienced the same speak as if they are speaking in a knowing way when they aren't. It really makes a difference when you experience something rather than just think about it.


Lakeman wrote on Nov 12th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .”

I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy. And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death. But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying. 

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Seraphis1
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #217 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 12:27pm
 
Lakeman wrote on Nov 12th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .”

I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy.


Hi Lake: The consensus information I draw upon says that the physical plane is a giant school in which beings are sent to learn lessons. One concludes that ‘karma’ (cause and effect) follows fixed laws… but, they are NOT immutable… if a being does nothing… then it is subject to the karmic currents. My understanding of these guides is they are nothing more than reflections of ones self and dissolve once one evolves or grows to the level they represent… they are neither omniscient or all powerful as matter of fact you probably have more power than they do if you choose to exercise it…


Lakeman wrote on Nov 12th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death.


The Jesus story is not a good example because it is not clear that that story in not a huge allegory for some larger lessons to be learned by those with ears to hear and eyes to see… so I will leave that one alone.


Lakeman wrote on Nov 12th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying. 


Your answer in my opinion is in understanding the ‘Astral Mud’ and the fact that

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe the mind can achieve.’


This means that at anytime an individual can override the general ‘karmic’ pattern and they do as is amply demonstrated in Micheal Largo’s - ‘God’s Lunatics’. Now the information I have is this… the higher you go into the upper levels of awakening the more important it becomes to understand the belief system structure and how to dismantle it because all the diseases you refer to that afflict bonified evolved ‘New Agers’ can be understood by understanding the belief system barrier to the next level above your current status… that barrier exist to keep you locked into the illusion… so the only way to ‘cure’ yourself is to unravel that belief system structure which is the barrier to the next level… in short the universe is a magnificent multilevel computer game.

S.
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betson
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #218 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 1:46pm
 
Hi

Regarding what you, Seraphis, said to me a few posts back,
yes, I see that it was/is a limiting belief, now that you point it out.

I am too fond of limits. I even appreciate them, like one would a bannister along steps or a leash for a dog.   Smiley  Maybe liking limits, rather than being tired, is why I haven't explored lately.

It's lonely exploring when one gets into different territory than Swedenborg or Moen etc have described. I did post about seeing entities as torii/toruses and found no one was into that. If such experience isn't share-able, then what good is it?

Bets


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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Seraphis1
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #219 - Nov 15th, 2010 at 10:57pm
 
betson wrote on Nov 15th, 2010 at 1:46pm:
Hi

Regarding what you, Seraphis, said to me a few posts back,
yes, I see that it was/is a limiting belief, now that you point it out.

I am too fond of limits. I even appreciate them, like one would a bannister along steps or a leash for a dog.   Smiley  Maybe liking limits, rather than being tired, is why I haven't explored lately.

It's lonely exploring when one gets into different territory than Swedenborg or Moen etc have described. I did post about seeing entities as torii/toruses and found no one was into that. If such experience isn't share-able, then what good is it?

Bets




Hi bets: It all depends on what your goals are... do you want ultimate freedom from the 'game'... control of the 'game'... say like The Facilitator... or just cruising... there is a lot out there to verify... as well as new things to discover... for example I would like another point of view as to why Kepple concluded that the past, present and future are all happening at the same time... he seems to suggest this is not a theory... if it isn't a theory then he must have experienced the past present and future at the same time... has anyoneelse attempted to have that experience... have you tried to go to the Aperture and the Emitter??? 

S.
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Seraphis1
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #220 - Nov 18th, 2010 at 5:11pm
 
Seraphis1 wrote on Nov 13th, 2010 at 12:54pm:
The Astral Mud

In order to understand this post you probably need to either read or be conversant with Michael Largo’s ‘God’s Lunatics’.

This in not a joke…!!

The key to the whole thing is this dynamic truth:

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’
There in is the potent and deadly rub as a barrier to finding the truth…

‘God’s Lunatics’ through the power of the mind manage to manifest and objectify their ‘insanities’ (I use this word with qualification… they look insane… or seem to be insane…) in the physical world to the astounishment of us all.

St. Genevieve the patron saint of Paris at the time of Attila the Huns investment of Paris told the frightened people of Paris to go into their homes pray and fast, she assured them that this would create a divine shield to protect Paris… Attila the Hun changed course and attacked Orleans in stead… what made Attila change course?



Power vs Force – Power will always overcome force.

It turns out there were two divinely inspired future Saint in differenc cities in Gaul at the time Attila invaded… they both gave instruction to go into one’s home pray and fast… both cities were bypassed… by Attila… but an interesting note… Attila attacked Orleans and turn to Chabon… he was defeated there by an alliance of two Gaulic tribes and a Roman contingent… Attila retreated to the Balkans and the following year attempted the invasion again… this time his army was decimated by disease… he retreated home again and on his wedding night he drowned in his own blood… all very curious…

S.
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Berserk2
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #221 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 2:52pm
 
Here are an amazing series of videos on Swedenborg.  I was particularly stunned by the the Stanford University research group that rates him 1 of the 3 most brilliant men of all time--ahead of Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton!  While that seems a rather arbritary and over-the-top verdict, the videos reveal why a research group might come to that conclusion.   


http://www.outofbodytravel.org/mysticaltheology/emanuelswedenborg.html
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Justin aka Vasya
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #222 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 6:42pm
 
Berserk2 wrote on Mar 16th, 2011 at 2:52pm:
Here are an amazing series of videos on Swedenborg.  I was particularly stunned by the the Stanford University research group that rates him 1 of the 3 most brilliant men of all time--ahead of Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton!  While that seems a rather arbritary and over-the-top verdict, the videos reveal why a research group might come to that conclusion.   


http://www.outofbodytravel.org/mysticaltheology/emanuelswedenborg.html


    Thank you for sharing that Don, i found it quite interesting to watch. 

  From what i've heard and read about Emanuel; i would say he was a true genius, prodigy, and visionary both in the material realms and nonphysically. 

  But while i have a lot of respect for him--his experiences and insights, i also don't forget that he was not a completed or Christed being, hence there is room for error, misinterpretation, and skewing in his perceptions and interpretations.  It does sound like he was a more mature consciousness than average though for sure. 

   I know you don't put much store in astrology, but i remember looking at his chart before and thinking it was pretty unusual in some respects, and definitely repeatedly indicated a lot of intuition and psychic sensitivity.   
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #223 - Jul 24th, 2011 at 8:48am
 
Don, I'm new here, and I would like to contact you. I have read your posts. I'm really only posting this message so that I can message you, as I see that I need to make at least one post.
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #224 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 5:48pm
 
I'm posting this primarily for the convenience of newbies who would like to familiarize themselves with ES's unique astral gifts and creative genius.  I need to read more on ES's explorations.  Ny current interest is  how to reconcile his insights with the best of astral research (NDEs, etc.).  I'm also intrigued by his  methods of distinguishing spirit deception from genuine contact with honest spirits [dealt with in this thread].  I say this because even he seems to have been deceived at times.  When I have time, I hope to post new insights from his explorations.  ES is the most compelling astral explorer known to me.  I wish a modern ES would burst on the scene.   

Bob, sorry I missed your post.  I've abandoned this site for a long time after being a regular poster for years.  Please contact me via PM. 
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