“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .”

I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy. And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death. But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying. 

Lakeman, where have you been hiding?  Welcome.  You said more with a few sentences than some of us do in a few pages.  Fantastic post, but I digress.......

I agree with Lakeman that one could not fault "guardian spirits" for not intervening more during tragedy.  Sometimes tragedy stems from the simple laws of karma (action yields reaction).  It seems that while incarnate, we all live under some basic laws and rules.  I would speculate that if there are guardian spirits, they are there to provide more of a subtle insight or comfort on an emotional level and not come down to us in a blaze of light and celestial glory.  We are meant to choose for ourselves, but as the knight said in that Indiana Jones movie "choose wisely."

That shamans may have been projecting for thousands of years is an excellent point.   The tradition in certain cultures (perhaps Mayan, Aztec, etc.) may have been verbal and then lost to time.  Don brings up a good point in that Swedenborg methodically wrote down his experiences and then description of heaven and hell.

Of interest to me, although Swedenborg described the hypnogaugic state and dream interpretation as a key to his development, he did not (to my knowledge) write a "how to" guide for astral explorers.   In fact, he stated that through grace around age 53 or so, the spiritual world was opened to him.  Yet how would an interested reader follow him there?


M

betson wrote on Nov 13^th, 2010 at 9:48am:


Hi Bets:

‘The greatest illusion of all is the mankind has limitations.’ Robert Monroe

I am a little surprised at your above statement. It suggests you accept limitations. The only barrier to the ‘there’ that Monroe, Kepple and Moen say is there is your ‘belief system structure’… dismantle that and you will punch through to another reality…

You say, ‘Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience.’

That is a limiting belief structure… it isn’t true…

S.

Everybody has to die sometime, and in some way, so perhaps on some occasions divine intervention doesn't take place because it is intended that a person dies somehow and at some time.

I used to have lower back, upper back, and neck pain, and I got rid of them with assistance from my spirit guidance.

There are plenty of occasions when people receive assistance from there spirit helpers, so it is inaccurate to say what is so based on deaths and such that do happen.

The only way to truly find out what it is like to be in contact with divine helpers, is to make contact. Other wise a person is dealing with experience lacking conclusions.

If a person makes statements about spirit helpers without having experience, and then later makes contact and finds what it is really like, he (or she) will see how off base he was with his first statements.

I'd rather be a liar or deluded than inexperienced, thankfully I am neither. If the first part of this sounds like an odd thing to say, perhaps it will give you an idea of how it seems for person who has experienced something when people who haven't experienced the same speak as if they are speaking in a knowing way when they aren't. It really makes a difference when you experience something rather than just think about it.


Lakeman wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 9:06pm:

Hi

Regarding what you, Seraphis, said to me a few posts back,
yes, I see that it was/is a limiting belief, now that you point it out.

I am too fond of limits. I even appreciate them, like one would a bannister along steps or a leash for a dog.     Maybe liking limits, rather than being tired, is why I haven't explored lately.

It's lonely exploring when one gets into different territory than Swedenborg or Moen etc have described. I did post about seeing entities as torii/toruses and found no one was into that. If such experience isn't share-able, then what good is it?

Bets

Seraphis1 wrote on Nov 13^th, 2010 at 12:54pm:


Power vs Force – Power will always overcome force.

It turns out there were two divinely inspired future Saint in differenc cities in Gaul at the time Attila invaded… they both gave instruction to go into one’s home pray and fast… both cities were bypassed… by Attila… but an interesting note… Attila attacked Orleans and turn to Chabon… he was defeated there by an alliance of two Gaulic tribes and a Roman contingent… Attila retreated to the Balkans and the following year attempted the invasion again… this time his army was decimated by disease… he retreated home again and on his wedding night he drowned in his own blood… all very curious…

S.

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2011 at 2:52pm:


    Thank you for sharing that Don, i found it quite interesting to watch. 

  From what i've heard and read about Emanuel; i would say he was a true genius, prodigy, and visionary both in the material realms and nonphysically. 

  But while i have a lot of respect for him--his experiences and insights, i also don't forget that he was not a completed or Christed being, hence there is room for error, misinterpretation, and skewing in his perceptions and interpretations.  It does sound like he was a more mature consciousness than average though for sure. 

   I know you don't put much store in astrology, but i remember looking at his chart before and thinking it was pretty unusual in some respects, and definitely repeatedly indicated a lot of intuition and psychic sensitivity.   

I'm posting this primarily for the convenience of newbies who would like to familiarize themselves with ES's unique astral gifts and creative genius.  I need to read more on ES's explorations.  Ny current interest is  how to reconcile his insights with the best of astral research (NDEs, etc.).  I'm also intrigued by his  methods of distinguishing spirit deception from genuine contact with honest spirits [dealt with in this thread].  I say this because even he seems to have been deceived at times.  When I have time, I hope to post new insights from his explorations.  ES is the most compelling astral explorer known to me.  I wish a modern ES would burst on the scene.   

Bob, sorry I missed your post.  I've abandoned this site for a long time after being a regular poster for years.  Please contact me via PM.