Don resurrected this thread  - its his baby.  For you, Rob:  from Heaven and Hell:  by Swedenborg

Chapter 22 - Space in Heaven.

191. All things in heaven appear, just as in the world, to be in place and in space, and yet the angels have no notion or idea of place and space. As this must needs sounds like a paradox, I will endeavor to present the matter in a clear light, as it is of great importance.

192. All changes of place in the spiritual world are effected by changes of state of the interiors, which means that change of place is nothing else than change of state [22.1]. In this way I have been taken by the Lord into the heavens and also to the earths in the universe; and it was my spirit that so journeyed, while my body remained in the same place [22.2]. Such are all movements of the angels; and in consequence they have no distances, and having no distances they have no spaces, but in place of spaces they have states and their changes.

193. As changes of place are thus effected it is evident that approaches are likenesses of state of the interiors, and separations are unlikenesses; and for this reason those are near each other who are in like states, and those are at a distance who are in unlike states; and spaces in heaven are simply the external conditions corresponding to the internal states. For the same reason the heavens are distinct from each other, also the societies of each heaven and the individuals in each society; and this is why also that the hells are entirely separated from the heavens, because they are in a contrary state.

194. For the same reason, again, any one in the spiritual world who intensely desires the presence of another comes into his presence, for he thereby sees him in thought, and puts himself in his state; and conversely, one is separated from another so far as he is averse to him. And since all aversion comes from contrariety of affection and from disagreement of thought, whenever in that world several are together in one place they are visible [to one another] so long as they agree, but vanish as soon as they disagree.

195. Again, when any one goes from one place to another, whether it be in his own city, or in courts or in gardens, or to others out of his own society, he arrives more quickly when he eagerly desires it, and less quickly when he does not, the way itself being lengthened and shortened in accordance with the desire, although it remains the same. This I have often seen to my surprise. All this again makes clear how distances, and consequently spaces, are wholly in accord with states of the interiors of the [22.3]angels; and this being so, no notion or idea of space can enter their thought, although there are spaces with them equally as in the world.

196. This can be illustrated by the thought of man, in that space does not pertain to thought, for whatever is thought of intently is set before one as present. Again, whoever reflects about it knows that his sight recognizes space only by intermediate objects on the earth that are seen at the same time, or by recalling what he already knows about the distance. This happens because of the continuity; and in what is continuous there is no appearance of distance except from things not continuous. This is even more true of the angels, because their sight acts as one with their thought, and their thought acts as one with their affection, and things appear near or remote, and also varied, in accordance with the states of their interiors, as has been said above.

197. It follows from this that in the Word places and spaces, and all things that in any way relate to space, signify such things as relate to states, such as distances, near, far off, ways, journeys, sojourning, miles and furlongs, plains, fields, gardens, cities and streets, motions, measures of various kinds, long, broad, high, and deep, and innumerable other things; for most things in man's thought from the world take on something from space and time. [2] I will mention here only what is signified in the Word by length, breadth, and height. In this world, that is called long or broad which is long or broad in relation to space, and the same is true of height. But in heaven, where there is no thought from space, length means a state of good, breadth a state of truth, and height the distinction between them in accordance with degrees (see n. 38). Such is the meaning of these three dimensions, because length in heaven is from east to west, and those that dwell there are in good of love; while breadth in heaven is from south to north, and those that dwell there are in truth from good (see n. 148); while height in heaven applies to both of these in respect to degrees. This is why length, breadth, and height have these significations in the Word, as in Ezekiel (from chap. xl. to xlviii.), where the new temple and the new earth, with the courts, chambers, gates, doors, windows, and surroundings are described by measures giving the length, breadth, and height, by which a new church, and the goods and truths that are in it are signified. Otherwise to what purpose would be all those measures? [3] In like manner the New Jerusalem is described in the Apocalypse in these words:-

The city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth; and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs; the length, the breadth, and the height are equal (xxi. 16).
Because "the New Jerusalem" here signifies a new church these measures signify the things of the church, "length" its good of love, "breadth" truth from that good, "height" good and truth in respect to degrees, " twelve thousand furlongs" all good and truth in the complex. Otherwise, how could there be said to be a height of twelve thousand furlongs, the same as the length and the breadth? That "breadth" in the Word signifies truth is evident from David:-
Jehovah, Thou hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy, Thou hast made my feet to stand in a broad place (Psalm xxxi. 8).
Out of straitness I called upon Jah; He answereth me in a broad place ( Psalm cxviii. 5).
Besides other passages (as in Isaiah viii. 8; and in Habakkuk i. 6). So in all other cases.
198. From all this it can be seen that although there are spaces in heaven as in the world, still nothing there is reckoned in accordance with spaces but in accordance with states; and in consequence spaces there cannot be measured as in the world, but can be seen only from the state and in accordance with the state of the interiors there [22.4].

199. The primary and veriest cause of this is that the Lord is present with every one in the measure of his love and faith [22.5], and that it is in accordance with the Lord's presence that all things appear near or far away, for it is from this that all things in the heavens are determined. Also it is through this that angels have wisdom, for it is through this that they have extension of thought and through this a sharing of all things in the heavens; in a word, it is through this that they think spiritually, and not naturally like men.


Matthew

I believe that Swedenborg (aka Swedenbogus) (aka Swedenbarf) is a great explorer who has discovered many ground-breaking things.  I have great respect for him, unlike my initial impression of him. 

However, there are two things that bother me about him.

1.  His frequent incorperation of the "Lord" in his work.  This implies the Christian God is the truth and king of the castle.  This just does not resonate with me.

2.  His frequent labeling of "angles" in his work.  Just because he communicated with beings does not mean they were highly spiritual and truth knowing beings.  I believe that due to his preconcieved beliefs, any being of light he encountered in his travels he thought were angels.  Therefore, he thought everything they spoke of was the truth.  Who knows, maybe he was speaking to some fun-seaking pranksters.  I am not saying this is the case, just giving an example of why I may not agree with all of his discoveries.

Quote:


Hmmm.  Perhaps the reason you feel ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than Monroe and Moen is because they don't experience teaching from Jesus or the "Lord", rather than this being the outcome of their lack of spirituality.  Perhaps their belief systems did not include a conjuered up avatar.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Eloquently said, Matthew.   And the orthodox church certainly deems ES a major heretic.  I'm in awe of his brilliant originality and the range of his accomplishments.  True, his spiritual claims can be debatable, but one thing should not be debated--that modern adepts should seek to verify or refute his claims by direct astral experience, and preferably by partnered exploration.   We all have a somehat biased overview.  So astral adepts should seek whatever areas of consensus are possible.  I suspect I will reassess my own beliefs in the light of ES's insights for the rest of my life.

Dude, find me a modern astral adept whose verifications are even close to being as impressive as ES's.

Don

Dude and Ahso:

I have comments on some of the things Ahso wrote to Dude:

Quote: Ahso
My sense is that Bruce is a sensitive guy, and knows that to a lot of folks, because of bad experirences with dogmatic or orthodox religion, Christ is kind of bad taste of many peoples mouths.   Bruce is trying to awaken as many people as possible, therefore its most constructive to speak in as non religious and general sense as possible.  

 If Bruce outright claimed a connection of Planning Intelligence to "Christ", then he would have a narrower auidance and less people would be willing to listen to his overall message, which is basically Christian in essence i.e. PUL is the most important thing in this or any world.  

"The above is a possibility that I've also come to. If Bruce wrote about Christ many people would've been scarred away. Heck, I would've been scarred away when I first started reading Bruce, because fundamentalist had made me uptight when it came to Christ.  But I kept things open, and things have been revealed to me."

 Also in Monroes' books, there is an explorer session where it seems that Yeshua came through.   This being talks about how so many expect its return, but in truth "I never left", but don't expect me in the form of a man yet, the time as not yet come. I exist in and am part of everything, and i'm the light, just as you are of the light, but you still yet do not know your light like i do, etc., etc.

 Dunno, but when i read this account in Monroe's book i get chills, and that this is the most expanded source possible speaking, its so powerful and yet so simplistic.  

"The above really stood out to me too. It goes along with how the Gospel According John speaks of Christ and how Howard Storm sometimes speaks of Christ. It also goes along with the planning intelligence idea Ahso expressed, and is the feeling I got when Christ visited me one night and worked on my energy.

Also (not Ahso), Rosalind Mcknight spent a lot of time with Robert Monroe. The spirits she made contact with speak of Christ as if he is a big part of the human race's welfare."

Don-

Great question!  Indeed, if many folks even on this website claim to be able to visit the Hall of Knowledge wherein you can find out anything about anything, why don't we get some answers to ancient questions?

Such as, is reincarnation real?  Is it linear?  Simultaneous?  Or just a bogus theory?

Or, was Jesus really the author of ACIM?

Or, do we really decide on when and how we will die before incarnating?

Heck there must be hundreds of other questions.

Thing is, people make lots of claims but don't seem to be able to back them up with solid information. 

Claims of retrievals can likewise be explained by wish fulfillment, coincidence, over- active imagination, or more likely information that the retriever already knew but had forgotten about until the "retrieval."

That's not to say retrievals are bogus.  I think it is a genuine thing.  It's just that lots of claims are made that cannot be backed up by irrefutable evidence.

R

One other thing, I really doubt that Christ views Bruce in a negative way. Christ probably believes that Bruce provides a great service. I have received spirit messages that portrayed Bruce in a positive way.

Don likes Howard Storm and I believe Betty Eddie. Both of them have written that it doesn't matter what religion a person follows, as long as he or she lives according to love. In line with this, I figure that just about all of us will have to make some belief system adjustments when we cross over. It is hard to figure everything out while we are here in the physical. Certainly the beings of love and light that exist in the World of spirit understand this, and aren't looking for spirits to throw stones at as they try to return to the light.

A most probing question, Don.  Might I propose moving it from Swedenborg's thread to its own?  Essentially, it is a call to "walk the walk."  Live the lifestyle, engage your community wherever you are, rather than mull over your own problems, analyze your childhood to see where you went wrong, etc.  It is a sentiment I share, and an excellent challenge.

I still am not fond of, and don't quite understand some of your challenges to New Agers on this site.  In the last six months, I have not read posts from people tooting their own horns or claiming to be saints.  Everyone has questions; some post retrievals and interesting experiences.  You often look with a jaded eye at these posts and dismiss them as unfounded wishful, imaginings. 

I like to look for commonalities between us.  We all seem to agree that consciousness and thought are present in both the physical and the nonphysical.  Bruce teaches an imagination method to get things going - a method that is accesible to virtually everybody.  Is there a risk to indulge imagination without making real contact?  Of course.

I see those you call "New Agers" on the board as being sincere open people who do not feel they know all the answers but are searching and sharing their experiences.  I'm still not clear on what you intend to bring about by questioning the validity of their retrievals, or the love expressed by those on this site?  Are we supposed to nod our heads and say "Yes, yes, now I see, it was all bogus, and my only hope is to join a church and work in a soup kitchen?" 

If we "walk the walk" as your post suggests, then it should be in all areas, including our interactions here.  Other than the story of Jesus on the temple steps with money lenders, I am unaware of any biblical passages that support your hard-edge "tough love" posts that bandy about terms such as "new age ghetto," "herd" and such.  Just a thought, meant constructively, as I really did appreciate your last post.

Matthew