Hi Don,

Do you think that the items you have listed should be recopied to a new thread, both for clarity and to ease the groaning board when it is so active? ( I noticed it was really slow in trying to load, as well as when adding my reply above.)

If you would do it, your name would appear as poster, as it should.  I'll be happy to do it for you (as a clerk) if you want but then my name gets in there without deserving to be. Feel free to PM me if this warrants further comment. We could also ask Allan how to do it but when we were trying to reorganize the book forum section there was only one option--to recopy and then get named the poster.)

Betson

I was not aware that he did not create the church himself. I thought maybe it was a bit like what Ron Hubbard did.  It was an assumption, as was the statement that he did not want people to explore for themselves.  Since you know a lot about him, did he advocate this? Did he teach his methods of Astral travelling to others, so that they could find the things he speaks of out for themself?  Its just that on that whole ten page spiel about him, I dont recall reading anything about him helping others to take journeys on their own.  I believe that someone with the amount of knowledge he has gained would want people to discover the same things he has for themselves, a man in his position not doing so is just selfish.  This is what I was basing my assumptions on.  Unless he in fact did teach his methods to others and wanted to share his new levels of knowledge and consoiusness with his fellow man, I don't think I am way off. If I am wrong, then perhaps I am.

I have a hard time believing the below statement that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.

There are about 6 billion people in the World. Does this mean that about 12 billion evil spirits are connected to the World, or do some of them have to attach to more than one person? If this is the case, what difference does the like attracts like principle make? And what difference does it make if a person messes around with something such as an ouija board? I mean, if two evil spirits are already connected to us.

I've also read that ES claims that evil spirits aren't aware of the heavenly spirits that are connected to a person, and heavenly spirits aren't aware of the evil spirits that are attached to a person. Going by my experience with spirit guidance I find this very hard to believe, because I've found that my guidance isn't limited when it comes to what it is aware of.  It would know about two evil spirits hanging around.

I'm more inclined to consider the above sort of thing, than what kind of tests a person has passed. There are lots of mediums that can come up with proof of having actually made contact with a deceased person, yet this doesn't mean that they know what it is all about.

Going by what I read, ES states that people shouldn't travel astrally, yet it was okay for him to do so because he had an ability to discriminate positive spirits from negative spirits that other people wouldn't have. Does this mean that people should follow him as opposed to finding out for themselves?

Don, I'm with you when it comes to Jesus Christ being a significant part of God's divine plan and reincarnation not happening in the way people often believe, but this doesn't mean that I'm going to be drawn to a source of information simply because they believe the same. As I'm sure you know, other factors are also important.






[quote author=Berserk link=1124309116/0#5 date=1124474740](4) ES's VERIFICATIONS OF HIS CONVERSATIONS
    WITH ANGELS

ES claims that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.  He applies the term "angel" to discarnate humans in Heaven as opposed to Hell and the intermediary realm he calls "The World of Spirits."  His practiced mastery of discernment allows him to distinguish angels from the deceptive hellbound spirits.  Lower-order spirits like to pretend that they can predict and even control the future, but they cannot.  Modern astral adepts have seldom penetrated the heavens, and so, are often deceived by hallucinatory encounters with lower-order spirits.  But the Lord, Heaven, and angels essentially transcend time.  So anyone in contact with them can potentially read the past, present, and future, and even verify their contacts with the dead.

Hey recoverer

The problem with Swedenborg's advice about who should astral travel and who shouldn't probably comes from his coming from another culture in another time.

Some religions are authoritative and some are permissive. Some governments are authoritative and some are permissive.

Authoritative means that some authority figure decided what people will think and the people who adhere to that sort of religion tend to be ones who don't think for themselves.

Permissive means that the ideas are more open-ended. The absolute truth isn't so clear but there is acceptance that you get to decide some things for yourself.

We Americans come more from the permissive end than the authoritative end of things, at least in our inception. (This is not to say we haven't used alot of cultural constraints over time). Swedenborg did not have the advantage of being an American so he might not have understood personal freedom the same way we do. That he chose to be paternalistic is not surprising.

Don:

Besides what you posted here on this thread, I read on another site ES's detailed account of what happens to a person after they die. In the article he really delves into how people have different parts of themselves, including parts that they aren't aware of and aren't heavenly in nature. I agree with this principle, and therefore,  people should become aware of what exists within the various parts of their mind. Otherwise, something unfriendly might make an energetic connection with that part of their mind. Two evil spirits per person seems like an oversimplification.

Here's another factor. One time I had an out of body experience where I traveled to the outer fringes of a lower astral realm. I understood things automatically during this experience.  I could tell that there were negative minded spirits within this realm, yet I didn't feel any fear, because I knew that they couldn't get to me. I also understood that they could leave only when they sought help and a light being or beings came to help them. Right after this experience ended the thought occurred to me that sometimes they find their way out when people mess around with ouija boards. May be other ways too, for example, when people mess around with black magic. But for the most part such spirits aren't free to go anywhere they want.




Berserk wrote on Dec 27^th, 2006 at 2:23pm:

ES may have explored the afterlife billions of times, gotten many verifications, and written hundreds of documents explaining about what the afterlife is like and how the whole system works.  But if he held strong preconcieved beliefs, which there is no doubt in my mind that he did being from his time and location, then I see no way that everything he claims to be true is actually the way it is.  He may have billions of verifications on each of his 'findings', but if what he experienced out there was skewed by his belief system, then these findings must only be true to him, and only for as long as he wishes to hold onto those beliefs.  I very much doubt you can be 100% positive that this is not the case.

MORE ON ES'S INTEPRETIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE HELLS:

I am adding this post for 3 reasons.  
(1) I have just read George Dole's book on ES--"Freedom and Evil: A Pilgrim's Guide to Hell" and want to blend his research into inisghts drawn from my fresh rereading of ES's "Heaven and Hell."
(2) I am cannibalizing my ES thread here for a new thread on another site and wanted to bring the thread up front for easy cutting and pasting.
(3) Uh, OK, I was getting a bit jealous of Dude's popular Journal thread and just wanted to show off the fact that mine is longer.   I measure profundity by length rather than logic and experiences.

For ES all of earthly life is a preparation for a postmortem existence in which our core desires and feelings towards others cannot be hidden in face-to-face encounters.  In the next life we naturally gravitate towards people who share our values and want to play by our rules.  Besides, in the spiritual world there is no discrepancy between physical proximity and spiritual remoteness.  Essential affinity is presence, and essential incompatibility is distance.  For these reasons, “the Lord never turns His face away from anyone or spurns anyone, never casts anyone into hell or is angry (HH 545).”  “The divine aura that emanates from the Lord is a constant effort to save everyone (HH 595).”  “The Lord does not punish anyone: demonic society itself does (AC 245)” and its denizens ultmately choose that society because they feel most comfortable there.   The various levels of hell are appallingly squalid “in heaven’s light,” but quite glamorous in their own light (e. g. HH 553)..  Spirits who look “bad” to the “good” will look attractive to the “bad” who share the same core desires and values.  "When spirits voluntarily arrive at their hell and go in, they are accepted cordially at first and think that they have arrived among friends.  This lasts only a few hours, though.  All the while they are being probed to find out how crafty they are and, therefore, how powerful.  Once this probing is complete, the attacks begin in various ways (HH 574).”  “The hells are governed by means of angels [righteous discarnate humans]  who are given the ability to look into the hells and check the insanities and riots there.  Sometimes angels are sent there and their very presence brings matters under control (HH 342).”  

“These two loves, love for oneself and love for the world, rule in the hells and actually constitute the hells...Love for the Lord and love for one’s neighbor rule in the heavens and actually constitute the heavens (HH 554).”  ES identifies 3 basic levels of hells, each of which contains countless communities based on subtle distinctions determined by the principle like attracts like. (1) The first and mildest level supremely values brute force and is focused on behavior.  Here no one trusts anyone: one must either control or be controlled.  Spirits are reluctantly forced into alliances not out of sympathy, but out of common resentment of a common enemy.  Spirits are insensitive to the motivations of their partners because they are insensitive to their own motivations.  Yet in their minds, they are often “happy” because they enjoy the thrill of vengeance and the hatred that fuels it.  They establish new emotional normals.  Alliances are constantly broken down and reformed with new members as one’s role fluctuates from victim to victimizer.

(2) The 2nd level of hells focuses not on brute force, but on the workings of the human mind.  Spirits here will try to con you out of anything you own.  Here your intellect is focused not on the effort to understand things as they are, but to create the illusion that they are as you want them to be.  The goal is not a cooperative venture to solve mysteries, but an egotistic obsession with defending one’s point of view.

(3)The 3rd level of hells focuses on the workings of the human heart  Spirits here will try to work on your feelings until you have no will of your own.  ES associates the 3rd hell with the malignant creation of illusions.  Our feelings, undisciplined by rationality or realism, construct fantasy worlds where anything can happen.  Everyone at this level is a creator as well, which means that cosmic conflicts constantly erupt in which the odds are all against you.  Occasionally, you may prevail and your illlusions may invade the minds of your opponents; but more often you find yourself to be the martyr.  But in each mental battle, the winners become special targets in the next conflict.

Don

Thanks for resurrecting this post, Matthew.  Some time ago you posted something about ES to the effect that time is like a change of state.  I didn't get around to it at the time, but I wonder how ES describes 'space'. - Rob