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do you listen to skeptics? (Read 9294 times)
movieguy
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do you listen to skeptics?
Aug 2nd, 2005 at 9:07pm
 
Hi!  I've been visiting this site for years but only now decided to post to the forum.

While the subject of my thread appears to counter the flow of beliefs here in this forum, I wanted to hear the opinions of others.

Like many, I would say I am "skeptical" about the afterlife and other aspects of life.  At the same time, certain experiences or "phenomenas" confuse me as I try to rationalize them according to current scientific development.  I've followed the arguments made by the "skeptics" and at first agreed with many of their points, until I found glaring flaws., in particular the character of James Randi, noted "debunker".

Randi is famous for his million dollar challenge where he says he will pay a million dollars to anyone proving a paranormal act.  Sounds great, but he puts some restrictions which limit certain kinds of evidence such as anecdotal evidence.  That rules out a lot of possibilities.  For example, without modern understanding of chemistry, herbs containing chemicals which are pain relievers, would be considered only anecdotal and therefore not "proof".  Randi's openly admits there are more challengers then resources to test the claims, so it is possible a winner has simply not been tested.  Yet if there are such limited resources, why does he waste them on testing absolutely bogus submissions like the one from dubai of two brothers who claim they make the sun rise and set?  It suspiciously seems as if he only tests applicants he know will fail.

Another problem I have with many skeptics, including James Randi, is their predisposition to believe that if a belief sounds crazy, it must be false.  Randi and his colleagues never put such beliefs to real tests and merely proclaim the absurdity of it all on their various rants and tirade.  A good example is the myth of "talking to plants".  The idea that it may be possible for plants to grow better when exposed to audio stimuli.  The skeptics proclaimed it as utter nonsense, but when the show Myth Busters tested it in a controlled environment, the results revealed it was plausible.  These same skeptics have grown oddly quiet about this topic now. 

And there seems to be a natural tendency for "skeptics" to be hypocritical.  "Skeptics" previously believed there was no such place as Angkor Wat  in Cambodia, categorizing it as nothing more than an Asian atlantis myth.  When it was finally discovered, these same skeptics turned around and said they always believed in its existence and laugh at former colleagues who never believed.  This has been the case throughout the years.  Other examples include the disbelief in dinosaurs, vitamin C helps fight colds, extinct woodpeckers, kevlar, and so on.

Far too many skeptics are no different then the extreme believers they decry: when science proves them wrong, they backpedal.

The dubious qualifications of many skeptics also come into question.  James Randi, a celebrated skeptic with supposedly a high intellect, is not a professor, or scientist.  He is a magician who's been trained to fool people.  He's also been found guilty of slander and false statements.  He has been quoted, comparing one graduate of Harvard as a quack because another quack graduated from the same university.  Canada's most notorious serial killer graduated from my university.  Does that predispose me to be a serial killer?

Skeptics like Randi also often turn to their "experts".    It is true these experts have doctorates, but many are in psychology and philosophy.  I am to 100% believe the word of a philosopher in regards to the state of quantum mechanics over a physicist?  Wasn't psychology considered a pseudoscience until fairly recently?

Finally, skeptics often say we should not believe in "new agers" because ultimately they are driven by money and are out to sell books, and charge exhorbitant amounts for workshops and conferences.  While this is true in many cases, the more reputable parapsychology websites and figures do no such thing.  James Randi has a foundation, www.randi.org, and asks for $10,000 donations to further his cause.  His annual conferences charge a whopping $350 just for the entry fee.  His colleagues write numerous books which they constantly plug on their websites.  One can argue his foundation is small compared to the pseudosciences but that is a bogus argument.  Consider the amputated parents:
http://www.webalice.it/cipidoc/english.htm
they are a small group and have held small conferences but don't charge $350.  I don't see the amputated parents, Bruce Moen, ITC researchers asking for $10,000 donations.

But yet, there are many skeptics who do critically think in the right, rational way, and oddly enough are the ones who also believe in God.  (I bring up the Mythbusters again as good examples because on many occasions, they are very skeptical about a myth, only to test it and find it true, and on even one occasion, busted a myth, only to find news coverage of an actual, verified, and very recent (within the last 3 years) case)

So not every skeptic is bad, however there is a trend towards rampant skepticism which shadows uncontrolled new age thinking.  It becomes hard for me to believe in either camp.   

So my dilemna is this: I've had experiences I can't explain, yet my critical mind still fails to come to terms and I am torn between these beliefs.

Who else feels this way, or once felt this way, and what happened to make you finally accept one side over the other?

How many of you have had verifiable proof of the afterlife or paranormal abilities?

I'll end with one more observation: the skeptics tend to be the first to demand polygraph exmanination of criminals, only to decry the polygraph as an unreliable pseudo science when the results are not in their favour.
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spooky
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #1 - Aug 3rd, 2005 at 6:14pm
 
Hi movieguy,
I am a sceptic but also a mind traveler or astral projector or whatever one want to call it, with typical "retrieval" experiences. So I think I'm in the same situtation like you are. I got some information matches which are barely possible on random, but too weak to be really a proof. Not this not that. So what should I do? I just go on, not knowing if there is objective truth about what I experience in meditation every day or if it is my private fantasy. Maybe one day I will get confirmation. But, with no doubt, it has already strong consequences (good ones) on my life. But this is impossible to proof in the Randhi show:-).
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Firequeen
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 10:20am
 
Skeptics seem to belong to the same disc.  Im not a skeptic or a doubter, I believe with a spiritual knowlege the experiences Ive had.  I dont know how you teach someone to FEEL and SENSE truth.
Tusting in the greatness and allowing this type of expanded thinking to flow through you helps.  Put that under a miroscope and analize it!!!! Grin


always with love
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Touching Souls
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 11:19am
 
I agree with Firequeen. There is no way to teach how to feel and sense truth. If it resonates with me, I accept it. If it doesn't, I throw it out. There is an inner KNOWING of truth.

Love, Mairlyn Wink
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I AM THAT I AM -- WE ARE ALL ONE -- TOUCHING SOULS
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 11:32am
 
Hi Movieguy-

Having been to Angkor Wat, I'm a believer.  Not having projected my spirit into the afterlife, as yet I'm a skeptic (but I don't have too long to wait). Smiley

BUT - scientific experiments are so designed that they work by setting up a synthetic neutral environment, not a natural setting in which "confounding" might occur. Evidently this sterilizes things so that "natural processes" can't occur. It's a real problem inmethodology.

A for experets with doctorates, keep in mind that degrees are not necessarily awarded for understanding, but rather for hoop-jumping. One hoop is to write an impressive research paper. Having a few degrees and a couple doctorates, I suggest that you keep a clear perspective on the sequence of such awards.

First it's BS. Then, More S. Finally, Piled High and Deep.

I generate as much "S" as anyone. I think that what we need is more 'inperts" to coordinate all the dissociative "experts".

(I'm presently off to a professional conclave where I shall provide the world wth further intellectual fertilizer. See you in a week.)

d
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life is too short to drink sour wine
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alysia
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 1:25pm
 
no, I don't listen to anybody but myself and maybe some old codger I call Dead Preacher guy. theres some here I listen to who never steer me wrong, like Bruce, Dave, Gordon, Jean, Linn, Jeff, Timber, Romain, Mairlyn and a few more old timers. somebody has to be a listener and I always thought I was good at that. it doesn't matter if you're a good talker, only if we know how to listen.
all words come cheaply, like (chuckle) Dave's little speech about fertilizer with a BS on it.
Linn told me to trust myself for instance. not to my face, but she was talking about how she had to learn to trust what she was given by spirit. she's  a psychic or a go between the two worlds. I learned if u can trust what you sense to be true in the moment, call it intuition if you want, it will lead you to all you need to know, and to say with confidence "I know." when you "know" you rest awhile in that. then begins another cycle to trust and know even more and it continues. even as  man continues..have no doubt the flesh is not the only reality or I would have killed myself long ago. actually I spoke with spirits back when I was 18, and that dead preacher guy was one of them. but knowing there was an afterlife and a before life didn't make my way any easier as once you have this knowledge, you tend to forget it, take it for granted whatever. you still have to learn to trust yourself, love yourself, accept your humanity and accept the things you don't know and hope that tomorrow you have another day to find out. and tomorrow has an eternity of tomorrows in it. so relax, enjoy the ride and listen to yourself and absorb life, as if you made it this far, u must have done something right......
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Ricardo
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 9:11pm
 
Hi Alysia
Long time no talk to, I agree with what you say, my
experience has drawn me to that conclusion, again
I say that I prove to no one except myself, this works
because what I consider proof to me would't be
proof to another.
But Skeptics are good, because without them we
become complacent.
Cheesy
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When you unite with me you are uniting without the ego, because I have renounced the ego in myself and therefore cannot unite with yours. Our union is therefore the way to renounce the ego in you.&&&&THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE
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Ricardo
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 9:18pm
 
I am still enjoying your songs and music, I made a
copy for the car also, its so nice, people ask me who is
that and I tell them your name and they usually say something about how good you sound or something to
that effect. I really get into some of it.

I'm here weekly, just don't post much, mostly still learning and soaking it up from you, Marilyn, others.

Later, Ricardo Wink
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When you unite with me you are uniting without the ego, because I have renounced the ego in myself and therefore cannot unite with yours. Our union is therefore the way to renounce the ego in you.&&&&THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE
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alysia
Ex Member


music in my head
Reply #8 - Aug 4th, 2005 at 9:53pm
 
Shocked  nice to hear from u again Ricardo and u are too kind. I will tell a secret now..hee hee. it is funny, but like u say, it is no proof to offer to none...oh well!

music....I can sometimes hear when someone is playing my song...I hear this playing in my mind and I always ask why is this? is there a program button in my head and somebody pressed it?  Shocked  then I say to myself, well, it is not such a bad song after all if someone else enjoys it. then I say, believe in yourself kiddo. so you are very sweet and have made my day..again...it doesn't matter that I am sensitive to pick this up, I just accept it started happening  and smile because I can sense people now sending me good will thoughts which blesses me and thank you again to confirm what i felt to be true.

...
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Grant M
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #9 - Aug 5th, 2005 at 3:32pm
 
Boy it sure is hot today so I will keep this short and sweet.


I will listen to skeptics if they are honestly enquiring

I will tend to disregard skeptics that are hostile and attacking with holier-than-thou language

I found these guidelines to be useful for gathering the most amount of knowledge with the least amount of energy spent.

They are:


Not Debate but Dialogue

Not Declaration but Exploration

Not Adversarial but Conversational



big cheers from Western Canada.

It is hot! Phew!

Grant

p.s. very good question.

if you post it again in winter you probably will get many more replies
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alysia
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #10 - Aug 5th, 2005 at 4:16pm
 
thanks, and well spoken Grant, notwithstanding the temperature you are having.

sending a cool breeze to you. love, alysia
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Grant M
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #11 - Aug 5th, 2005 at 7:56pm
 
Thanks Alysia,

Sometimes I think there is a dead preacher man inside me too. 

Grin Grin Grin

feeling cooler now.

Grant
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alysia
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #12 - Aug 6th, 2005 at 10:49am
 
oh I see. might even be the same dead guy that bugs me.....lol. somehow he manages to be in more than one place at once. peace, brother....
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jkeyes
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #13 - Aug 7th, 2005 at 9:22am
 
Alysia,

You sure warm the cockles of my heart  Grinand placed me with some great company. Just never know what thread is going to lead to love.  Make’s me want to be even more honest/real with myself since it appears that I don’t have ready access to my guides except in the case of doing retrievals or when I working with my clients.  In those cases I’m not dumb enough to attempt to do it myself.  You see, for a long time, I’ve realized that I’m like a two year old who shouts, “MOOOM, I wanta’ to do it myself!!!”  On some level, I’ve noticed that I feel sort of guilty or like I’m cheating if I call on them before I’ve gotten into the mindset of feeling really alone in a hostile environment and then coming out of that frame of mind into the awareness that I’m never alone and that the hostile environment is the creation of my own mind.  Sorta’ like a balancing act of being steeped in the worst mindset of the human experience and then discovering the light at the end of the tunnel through my own, so called, efforts. 

To expand on this tale, as a snotty nosed kid of 50 working as a merchandiser, the American Greeting card lady, then in her 70’s, did a reading on me that pointed out that I only get help when I’m at the end of my tether whereas my sweet husband 77 years now, throughout his life, gets it when he needs it.  He doesn’t even have to ask.  As an aside, throughout our 20 years together, I often asked him what keeps him from giving up in despair when times are tough for him and he consistently states that he has this little pilot light, as he gently touches his chest.  I, on the other hand, sense that life is really not to be taken too seriously as it’s all kinda’ a joke.  I mean, I really do get into the drama and dramatics of it all, but beneath that, this little voice is saying, “Your laughing, Jean”.  I think that my first husband picked up on that underlying attitude a few times, much to my inner self’s embarrassment. 

Bottom line is that I cling to your kind words of support and return to you in kind, my support as we both “struggle” with our work here Sad Grin Wink Kiss.

Much Love and gratitude, Jean  Kiss

P.S.- Re: connecting the physical world to the metaphysical one. I made a funny little connection/observation as I was sitting at my desk with a cup of coffee yesterday morning and staring at a reflection on the floor from a crystal in my kitchen window.  I noticed that the colors on the floor went from white/grayish boarder to> red>orange>pink>yellow/gold>to green>blue>shades of violet>& ending with purple.  I seem to remember/visualize that it’s the same order of colors in a rainbow.  As I’ve mentioned in a previous post, I’ve arranged miscellaneous items, ie. crystals, glass figures, dish liquid dispenser, bottles with colored water in my kitchen window, going from left to right, in the order of M. Newton’s, Color Spectrum of Spiritual Auras, fig. 6 pg. 171, Destiny of Souls.  (I’m a very color oriented person, meaning color effects me on a deep emotional level as music does to others. For some reason, this arrangement pleases my core) Anyhow, on his chart, he relates color to a soul’s primary core colors as described by his client’s in altered state of hypnosis and how they relate themselves and others to levels of mastery from new initiates (white) to ascended masters (purple).  Of course Newton goes into this whole color thing in a lot more depth/detail, for those who are interested, than my simple observation, but the bottom line for me, is that the crystal reflects the same order of colors from grayish line to reds to purple that the rainbow does and in turn the same order of color representing ascension of souls made in Newton’s clients.  Weird huh?  A bit of trivia for the skeptics who could reason that the various 60+ clients colluded with each other to come up with a plan regarding order of colors as a joke Grin.  But for me, it’s somehow a validation of a link between the physical and non-physical worlds presented in a very non-technical private showing-available to all.  Whadda ya think? 

J   Kiss   
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alysia
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Re: do you listen to skeptics?
Reply #14 - Aug 7th, 2005 at 11:32am
 
thanks Jean, I always look forward to reading your posts here. the topic of color might be a good new thread to make..hmm..heres a good topic "do u find skepics colorful? lol. I am not a good conversationalist on color, but I study my daughter's use of it..she is a graphic artist and paints as well. she comes to my house and rips down my gold curtains replacing them with white, which I have to agree gives the entire room a different feeling of somehow lifting my spirits by letting in more sunlight. sunlight=God. there, I'm on topic. I do not know what color is. a vibration? thought forms do have color though. as u might suspect, a dark thought would be dark, a loving thought would be pinkish. ha ha! which reminds me of a dream. one of my other selves (don't ask) a younger version of myself in new york..had fallen head over heels in love with a crook and they took him off to jail as she followed crying and carrying on...well, the jailer turned into a guide and pointed to one of my chakras which was a bright fushia pink and glowing. I think it was the solar plexus one, I forgot. he said you are really developing a beautiful shade of fushia there, quite striking my dear. I think he may have been trying to get me/her to focus on myself instead of my crooked lover. hmmm.
How tall are you Jean? is your hair light? I think I met you out there. love and light, alysia
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