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Orwellian "Hell Vision"... (Read 5746 times)
Brendan
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Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Jul 30th, 2005 at 6:34am
 
I recently re-read George Orwell's "1984". Funny how you read something again after 20 years (first read it in high school) and see completely new things... maybe that's one definition of great literature. Anyhow...
If the "many Hells" theory is correct, then there is a Hell (or Hells) which corresponds to, or at least resemble, the world of "1984". What I'd like to know is...
Who gets to be like "O'Brien" (the type of guy who PROSPERS in such a "hellish" environment as one of the leaders/"movers and shakers") and who gets to be "Winston Smith" (i.e., one of the poor schmucks who SUFFER in such an environment.)
Are the "O'Briens" skilled bad-asses who thrive in such worlds? Or is it criminals, or maybe weaklings, who get to be the "Winston Smiths"?
Who gets to be the tigers, and who gets to be the rabbits? How does this set-up work? For it would appear that some people get to be HAPPY in Hell...

B-man
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Wanderer
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #1 - Jul 30th, 2005 at 8:01am
 
Dear Brendan,

I think you could be right. Maybe there are chiefs/leaders who find their delight in hell, being masters pupetting the others.

Maybe it is why they choose to remain there, because they feel they are masters in this order OR maybe they're just good at their craft and unaware they have the choice to harm others or not, because they do not feel the consequences of this harm.

I think according to your rate of choices, awareness and the order or chaos you create, you end up with different kinds of people, even in this reality.

It must be the same in the afterlife. You end up with your kind, or maybe you do not see/realize there is another kind/way of being.

I do not think the "victims" are weaklings. I think they have less knowledge and awareness of what happens and how to trigger things and I believe there are people taking advantage of this ignorance.

I believe some people get indeed to be happy in hell. For years I have suffered myself happily, because I was told the more you suffer, the more you learn, the stronger you become. So, I was happy, suffering. As I expose this thought, I should mention, I believed this because I did not know better. As long as I was ignorant of a better reality, I was happy like that.

I think everything orders itself, naturally, because there is a logic, even in chaos. Chaos is often created for darker mental states to hide.

I do not know if that answered your question.

Just let me know.

Wanderer
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Brendan
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #2 - Jul 30th, 2005 at 6:25pm
 
I guess a refinement of the question might be:
How does one get to be an "O'brien" whether in
hell (or in a future incarnation, given infinite parallel
universes... for if there are infinite universes, it stands
to reason that the world of "1984" really does exist in
one or another of them... not to mention every other
dystopia dreamed up by humanity.)
Can an "inferior spirit" eventually learn to become a dominant, powerful one?
OR... do only the most intelligent, high-quality "spirits"... who were *MADE* this way... get to these positions? Do the schlubs have to STAY schlubs, forever? Are some spirits just naturally weak or stupid or inferior, and will be this way FOREVER... and they are the ones who become "Winston Smiths" (or cripples/crazies/retards, say, in OUR universe) and therefore have no future in ALL ETERNITY, except to be pitied in their "Aunt Santa Universe" existences... or stomped on in the "Darwinian" ones? ("1984" being one of the ULTIMATE "Darwinian" alternative realities...)
And why would some spirits be garbage spirits, while others would be quality ones? Is hierarchy "built into Creation"?
If hierarchy IS "built in", then what O'brien said to Winston Smith is TRUE...
"If you want to see a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face... forever."
To stomp or be stomped... that is the question.

B-man
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freebird
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #3 - Jul 31st, 2005 at 11:21am
 
Quote:
Are some spirits just naturally weak or stupid or inferior, and will be this way FOREVER... and they are the ones who become "Winston Smiths" (or cripples/crazies/retards, say, in OUR universe) and therefore have no future in ALL ETERNITY, except to be pitied in their "Aunt Santa Universe" existences... or stomped on in the "Darwinian" ones?


Brendan,

You are assuming that certain characteristics of people in the physical life have something to do with the "quality" of their spirit.  For example, you mentioned disabled people, mentally ill people, and retarded people -- but all of those things are biological phenomena that have little or nothing to do with the spirit.  All of those things are physical abnormalities of either the body or the brain.  The spirit is not the source of the problem.

I have read in some NDEs that people who are disabled in one way or another or who have very hard lives, are in fact more advanced spirits than others, who are seeking a bigger challenge for spiritual growth, or to teach others how to be more compassionate.

Alternatively, there is the possibility they are paying off bad karma from a previous life, or attempting to learn lessons they need to learn because of mistakes they made in a previous life.  For example, a person might have to live a life as one of the "cripples, crazies, and retards" as you put it, in order to develop appropriate compassion for such people.  Perhaps in a past life, the person might have been a very arrogant, intelligent, healthy and happy person who didn't care about those who suffer, or who was inclined to believe that everything is up to one's own free will and that those who suffer brought it upon themselves.  Then, they will be assigned to a life of misery and shame, as a way to cleanse their ego and balance their karma.  JMHO.

Peace,
Freebird
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Brendan
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #4 - Jul 31st, 2005 at 11:56am
 
"Then, they will be assigned to a life of misery and shame, as a way to cleanse their ego and balance their karma.  JMHO."
********************************
What if somebody (like yours truly!) has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in ultimately
"merging with God" and losing their individuality,
becoming an ant in an anthill... a bee in a beehive... a generic Chinaman in Red China... a cipher... a nothing.
Presumably such a person could slag off "paying
karmic debts" and just enjoy having one successful
life after another... living for PLEASURE (or pride, or whatever floats their individual boats...) living for THEMSELVES. Captains of their Own Ships...
As far as "becoming holy" and "one with God"... why
would anyone want that anyway? Is THIS the ultimate goal of all spirits? COME ON NOW. Heck, just move
to North Korea and become a citizen of Kim Jong-Il's "Juche Paradise" and you'll get a taste of what true believers promise "Heaven" holds as the "reward" for "purity" (blecch!) and "holiness" (keep it!)... to be made by "God" into a mindless, vapid, sexless drone, running hither and yon carrying out orders for the "Big Guy"... and this is what the final "reward" for "perfection" is, when you don't "have to" reincarnate any more?
Maybe the fact that this image appeals to so many people... to exchange freedom for security... is why liberty is dying all over the world in our time. Maybe it's because people everywhere are willing to settle for being well-cared-for nebbishes?
Sounds a bit like "1984", don't it? Go figure.

B-man
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Touching Souls
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #5 - Jul 31st, 2005 at 11:57am
 
Please remember that we all CHOOSE our lives before we come into each life. The ones who come in for a life of disability, mental illness, retardation, etc. choose those lives because they will advance karmicly faster than others.

There are no inferior nor superior spirits/souls/. There are no 'garbage spirits, schlubs' except in your mind Brendan. Please start waking up.

With Love, Mairlyn Roll Eyes
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jkeyes
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #6 - Jul 31st, 2005 at 4:26pm
 
Brendan,

As I seem to remember, Orwell wrote as a futurist during a pretty conservative time in our culture.  The cold war was going on and his stories were depressing to me.  My family was going through a rough time after my father died and my mother was the sum total of the woman’s problem, poor and powerless widow with four children under 13 years old.  While she was being embezzled for the third time (predators do smell the weak), I had to read Animal Farm for an English class and when the teacher asked us   what country this book was written about, I eagerly raised my hand and responded with, “the United States of course!”  Needless to say that was not the right answer.  Meanwhile, 1984 described a world with Big Brother watching us.  Today we have hidden cameras in all sorts of places, “For our own protection” and Homeland Security is in place and for many, it does not include due process, again for our own protection.  We also have the beginning of a new way of looking at ourselves, which includes all the previous ways plus the idea that we are more than our bodies.  Now the average Joe has access to information that includes easy steps to checking out all that has come before in the human experience and is currently happening by using various easy methods to alter, expand, and explore the real world beyond the physical to get a perspective on this little physical world. 

As far as Hell’s go, we can create them anywhere.  Like take those who are heavily addicted to drugs, everywhere they go, they meet up with pushes.  I’m not into drugs, so I wouldn’t recognize a pusher if I fell over him/her.  I’m mentioning this because of some of the people that I work with mention the pushers they meet all around them when they’re attempting to stay clean.  Sortta’ like seeing only couples when you’ve just had a devastating breakup.  I haven’t gone into the hells on the other levels as yet, but I do believe the tales told by Monroe, Moen, and the explorers on this board as well as many others that explain that the difference between the earth hells created by humans here and those over there. Here there is enough of a mix of human buddies to give aid but there you’re with only those like yourself (unless there’s a retriever or helper around).  In other words, there you have to work a bit harder on your own to recognize that you’re in hell and to get out of it.  Not that you can’t but just that it’s not as easy because of a mind set with no apparent alternatives. 

Now as far as the heroes go, I’m with Joseph Campbell when he says that we’re each on a hero’s journey.  By watching the TV and reading newspapers, I don’t get a picture of true heroes.  But by listening to people’s stories on this board and those around me in my every day world, I learn what real heroes are.  I’m learning that my hardest challenges include assuming responsibility for the choices I make on a daily basis that have to do with forgiving, overcoming my own ego, loving those who do harm, and overcoming my own fears of change and growth.  Each of these, I view as part of my heroes journey.  Yaah sure, I need to make a living, do the chores, and feed the cat, etc. but the hard things that I have to do deal with how can I visit my son and grandchildren when my daughter-in-law and I don’t like each other (maybe too much alike?) and how can I continue to be patient with my husband as he ages and can’t share to tasks, and how can I continue to have excitement/joy about life when I get so tired from work? Although, I did find the secret about not burning out with my clients, which is that they’re real people like you and me and the others on this board.  I love them!   

I notice on this board that some of the toughest challenges BTW have to do with changing beliefs and the fears of systems crashes.  Like what if I charge my viewpoint and find that there is no belief system to sustain me?  But for me, since I do not believe that there are any inherently inferior/superior spirits and that it’s all just a learning/hero’s journey, an ultimately equal opportunity for all of us, I’m becoming less afraid of looking at things in a different light. 

At this point, Brendan, I too have no interest in “merging with God”, losing my individuality, or becoming ant…or part of the Matrix, but I’m very intrigued with pushing my own limits of beliefs to the max as I’m only racing against myself with the help of my buddies.  I don’t see any of this having much to do with pleasure for pleasures sake or power according the mass media or success in terms of material wealth as the end to beat all ends but more as a personal challenge for myself/soul/spirit whatever.  And as far as your “rant” goes-I love it!!! A man after my own heart-I too tend to get angry over things I smell as being not “real”- like the show 7th Heaven  Angry. Now if Lucy turns out to be gay then I might view the show as more real.  But then again, I come from an era that produced one of the first reality shows, An American Family, where Lance came out as gay and the mother announced to the audience that she was divorcing her husband before she told him.  Such is life but in spite of these setbacks there’s no excuse for not finding your own truth and sharing it.  Keep up the good work B-man and hope you decide to check things out for yourself regarding the other levels.  I’m less threatened by the dogma now that I have  Wink.

Jean    
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Brendan
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #7 - Aug 1st, 2005 at 2:15am
 
"A man after your (and you mine!) heart, indeed!" Grin
"7th Heaven" gives me the dry heaves every time it comes on... and I know there's a special place in whatever "hell" for its producer(s)..!
P.S. Check out the other levels for myself?
I couldn't astrally project if I faced being hanged, drawn, and quartered for failing to do so, even if
I was granted 10 years to learn it. I completely
lack the Jedi-like mental discipline required for
it (if it's even possible, and all of you aren't deluding
yourselves...)
And Mairlyn... if you advance "faster" (via whatever means) then the "party's over" all the sooner, right? You lose your individuality, "merge into God", and become like one of the "worker caste Bugs" in "Starship Troopers." Or what if you "speed-skip" through the human/earth level and maybe the "next level up" is as a member of some  grotesque, hideous alien species (maybe with slimy skins and tentacles instead of limbs? Ugh!) which lives in a perfectly secure (and thus boring), predictable, collective society and reproduces by squirting milt onto eggs like a fish or octopus? I think if that's the case, I'll happily arrest my "soul advancement" and keep reincarnating as a member of mankind, with all of his stupidity, foibles, and cruelties... beats life (not to mention sex) with communistic tentacle aliens any day (no matter HOW "nice" they are!)
Also... some people truly are garbage, useless albatrosses around our collective necks. Consider Ted Kaczinsky (the Unabomber) who despite his talents as a mathematician at Harvard was rendered a worthless creature, a waste of minerals and organic molecules, by the fact that he was insane (criminally so, in this case...)

B-man
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Touching Souls
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #8 - Aug 1st, 2005 at 7:46am
 
You know, I can't really tell if you are genuine in all your dislikes of everything or if you're just pulling my/our leg. Whatever..............you have so much fear that you put up a huge dislikable front to cover it up. Your fear oozes out of you with your self righteous comments condemning and making fun of everything. You don't 'get it' because you don't consciously want to 'get it.'

Mairlyn Sad
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Brendan
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #9 - Aug 1st, 2005 at 7:58pm
 
I guess I'd rather be honest than liked!
I'm not here to make friends. If I wanted to
do that, there's a million chat forums, ect. I could
go to, Mairlyn.
I mean... this is a place where you can freely speak
what's on your mind, righto? So where's the beef
with that? A free market of ideas... that's why I
keep coming here. If and when this site ceases to be a
free market of ideas, I will leave...
Besides, I'm getting too old to care whether people
like me or not. I ain't in high school (or the Army)
no more, so to hell with glad-handing and people-
pleasing... that's for R.T. life anyway (preferably when you're on PAID time, at that.)

Hope that clears the air,
B-man
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Touching Souls
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Posts: 1966
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Re: Orwellian "Hell Vision"...
Reply #10 - Aug 2nd, 2005 at 9:15am
 
Well, at least we agree on something. I too would rather be honest than liked. And that is what I am being, honest. You have your beliefs and I have mine.  Roll Eyes

Peace, Mairlyn Wink
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