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killing your self (Read 23850 times)
freebird
Ex Member


Re: Devil's Advocate Speaks...
Reply #30 - Jul 23rd, 2005 at 12:21pm
 
Quote:
Now... there IS an old saying which goes like this...
"Those whom the gods would DESTROY, they first
make mad..."
Maybe the mentally ill are the ones destined for
damnation.

B-man


All I can say is that I hope this is wrong.  If it's true, then a whole lot of decent people are screwed by their Creator.  How about this poor kid (article follows):

http://fiercegoodbye.com/?P=104

Josh's Story

My name is Michael Dyck, and I am the psychiatrist who had the privilege of working with Josh Goossen. Josh is a Christian man who struggled hard to overcome a debilitating disease, a disease which ultimately took his life but never took away his burning desire to fulfill God's purpose for him. I knew Josh as a patient, but also as a person who affected me in ways that are hard to express.

Josh came to see me in October of 2000, when many of his friends, family and teachers were concerned that he could not study and relate to those around him as he had before. Josh had been admitted to hospital in Saskatoon the winter before for similar symptoms. He was making what was a very difficult decision for him: to again accept help from the medical care system, and to try to open himself to understand what was happening to him from the point of view of doctors, nurses and professionals who work in what we might call "Western medicine". Josh struggled to come to terms with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, a word shrouded in mystery, fear and stigma. You may think that choosing to get treatment from a doctor for a legitimate disease would be easy to do; this is rarely easy for those with this disease, and it was never easy for Josh.

With some persuasion, Josh agreed to be admitted to Eden Mental Health Centre. The first day that I met Josh, he talked, as he was able, about thoughts and voices which criticized him, about a cloudedness in his mind. Then, and often thereafter, Josh expressed his sense that he was failing God in some way, that he was not behaving as he thought God wanted. This sense, which others around him found so difficult to understand, caused him to behave in ways which could only be understood through the prism through which Josh saw the world and himself.

Josh stayed with us at Eden from October 2000 to February 2001. During this time, even when he struggled the most, Josh was always seeking ways to minister to those around him. He ministered to other patients with song and Scripture. He ministered to staff with his art, which seemed to well up from the deepest centre of himself. Josh brought a gentle, peaceful glow to all those with whom he interacted.

A few weeks after admission, after Josh had been involved in different forms of assessment, I prepared to explain to Josh and his family what our findings were. I prepared to tell him that the confused or absent thoughts, the disturbing thoughts and voices, the change in personality in recent years -- which his family described and the tests and assessments confirmed-- were all consistent with a brain disease called schizophrenia. Several days before I planned to explain the diagnosis, Josh must have sensed my concern about how he would accept it, because in a session with him he suddenly brought up the subject of his diagnosis. I asked him what he thought it was. Without hesitation he said, "Schizophrenia."

To remember Josh and to support his family is to try to understand how this disease, so often misunderstood, affected him and them, to understand how a disease of the brain can take a life.

Schizophrenia is a disease of the brain, which, like other brain diseases, causes it to change, to stop functioning normally. You and I take for granted that we can tell the difference between our own thoughts and any voices we may hear; when the brain is affected by schizophrenia, it loses the ability to distinguish between these. You and I take for granted that when we have to make a decision, we can decide between two options; the brain affected by schizophrenia is plagued by indecision and seeming contradiction. You and I take for granted that we can generate thoughts; the brain of someone suffering from schizophrenia often is unable to generate thoughts and conversation. I know that, in his deepest self and before God his Maker, Josh Goossen, even at his most troubled, was the same Josh who had been born 21 years earlier. His soul was intact and could not be touched by any disease. But we humans are not God: We see through a glass dimly; we can see parts of a person, but not his soul. Schizophrenia affected Josh's brain, causing us to perceive a change in Josh's personality, in what he said and what he did.

Josh lived at home with his parents again in spring 2001 for just over two months. During that time, Josh's parents, his family, friends and professionals provided medication, helped him to minister at Winkler Bible Camp and worked to help him define his goals for the future. Despite this, his mind and body weakened, even as he drove himself ever harder physically. He had greater difficulty accepting Western medical treatment. Ted and Mary Goossen never stopped supporting their son; I have never met two parents more devoted to their children. They never ceased to engage Josh, to advocate and to read about his disease. Even as they struggled with the inability to cure Josh, they held me up in prayer, as I did them.

Josh had to be admitted to Eden again due to deterioration in his condition, including a struggle with thoughts of death. As the disease prevented him from making everyday choices, so it prevented him from choosing a way forward. When, at some unknown moment, Josh's mind could no longer see a way forward, when the disease of schizophrenia disabled his hope, he could not struggle any longer. I do not comprehend the mystery of death, especially the death of the young. I do know that when disease has come to its end, followers of Christ like Josh Goossen see Him no longer dimly, but face to face.

Schizophrenia can do many things to a person. It can take away the parts of a person that allow us, as human beings, to fully recognize that individual as the same person we knew. But there are things that schizophrenia, or any other illness, can never take away. Schizophrenia could never take from Josh his identity as child of God. It could never take away his desire to follow Christ in everything he did. In his times of despair, Josh felt that he had failed God and those around him. But those of us who had the privilege of knowing him could see the Christ light shining through the prism that was Joshua Goossen, even when he couldn't. Despite everything that he lost, despite what medicine, the love of his family and the care of those who knew Josh just could not heal, Josh never ceased to be a living sign of the healing power of Christ.

Michael Dyck is a psychiatrist at Eden Mental Health Centre, a government-funded inter-Mennonite agency based in Winkler, Man. This article is adapted from an address Dr. Dyck gave at Josh Goossen's funeral April 30, 2001. Josh's parents, Ted and Mary Goossen, have given many years of service directing Christian camps and pastoring Mennonite Brethren churches. Used with permission.

From Josh's mother, Mary Goossen:

We have come through a very difficult experience with our son Josh's mental illness and the drastic way that he ended his life. There is seldom a day that I do not cry at least once, often more, but we also realize how we are becoming sensitized to so many others who are also experiencing huge encounters with mental illness.

[My husband] Ted is on the road a lot and he says he often cries about his son. Last week I experienced a "God moment", as I often do. I had a phone call, as we often do, from a man in town who suffers with schizophrenia. He said, "Can I tell you something?" That's the way he always starts his brief conversations. He said, "Don't ever think that mental illness is the result of poor parenting." Wow! Just what Ted needed to hear. So often he says that he was a poor Dad to Josh.

When Josh ended his life Ted was associate pastor in a large church. We received incredible support and still do, from the church, the community and Eden Mental Health Centre where Dr Michael Dyck has his practice.

Josh's older brother, Jon, commented that it was so remarkable for Dr Dyck to speak about Josh's illness from both perspectives. Often mental illness is seen as strictly a chemical imbalance that must be seen solely as clinical and can only be treated with medication, or it is seen as a spiritual or demonic invasion of a person's mind. He appreciated Dr Dyck's explanation. Even though Josh's mind was suffering a debilitating disease, his spirit was whole and healthy. We are very willing to let you use the article on your web site, knowing that it can help others. That was so much of who Josh was - he had so much compassion for others, especially those who were suffering.
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mystic_dreamer
Ex Member


Re: killing your self
Reply #31 - Jul 23rd, 2005 at 4:11pm
 
Freebird:
I read the King James Version of the Bible...which one are you reading?
I can list off numerous of biblical passages that completely condemn suicide.
As well.....#6 of the 10 Commandments reads: thou shall not kill.....murder..whichever word you chose to use. Now...how do you interprete that? That you are just not allowed to kill anyone else or any living thing...but you are allowed to kill yourself? If that is the case...then there is a contradiction.
In my opinion......do not kill, means just that. Just the same as : do not committ adultery......that doesn't mean that it is ok to be a 'swinging couple".
I do not know the Bible inside and out...but I do know that in all my many years of life so far, that I have been involved with several different faith systems and they all condemn suicide...and the biblical passages have backed it up.
I also don't believe in your interpretion of how Jesus 'felt' as He died on the cross. I don't believe that He was filled with fear and negative emotion at all! Everything that I have been taught...again, thru different faiths...is that He gave His life on the cross so that man had a way to Heaven...died for all our sins...so that we could find our place in Heaven one day. I have been taught that He was happy and very much looking forward to his death on the cross as He knew full well that at the end, He would be with the Heavenly Father......he was not afraid....and He was not negative. He was however, saddened in man for their unrepenting sins......and, when He cried out to God : why have you forsaken me.....wasn't out of fear.......or from being negative.....but out of: Have you forgotten me down here hanging my wrists and ankles??? This is really starting to friggin hurt and you seem to be taking your sweet time about bringing me on Home!
There was no fear....He was worn right down from the endless pain....the time it was taking...
He was tired....which is what I read into His plea: why have you forsaken me?
I don't for a minute believe that He set out to be crucified either......I don't understand where you come up with that....Jesus was quite happy from what I have ever read, to go about preaching about God......and trying to convert sinners.....and when it came time to be persecuted...tried and hung....He knew it....knew it was God's time ...and that the time had come to do what God had originally sent Him to earth to do.....
Do you not believe in the Holy Trinity?
Do you not believe that Jesus had all the faith imaginable in His own Father?
The only fear that Jesus had was in the wrath of His own Father....and the fear for a sinners.
However......each to his own. We all believe what we want to....and we all interprete the Bible in different ways.
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mystic_dreamer
Ex Member


Re: killing your self
Reply #32 - Jul 23rd, 2005 at 9:29pm
 
Freebird........a link to which you might find interesting on suicide vrs. the Bible:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html
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freebird
Ex Member


Re: killing your self
Reply #33 - Jul 23rd, 2005 at 10:27pm
 
Mystic Dreamer,

We have very different interpretations of Christianity and the Bible.  I used to be a fundamentalist, with beliefs much like yours I suppose, but I have become a universalist after I studied the Bible more intensely using the original Greek and Hebrew concordances, etc.  There simply is no verse in the Bible (the original text) that says hell is eternal.  There is also no verse that specifically condemns suicide as being automatically worthy of hell.  Many Christians have come to very different interpretations on these issues, and I believe they have misunderstood the message of the Gospel.

In regard to the commandment "thou shalt not kill/murder," I believe the intention of the commandment is in regard to others.  It is an interpretation to extend the meaning of the commandment to include suicide.  It would also be an interpretation to extend it to include killing people in war, or killing animals, which is why some Christians are pacifists and/or vegetarians.  But the explicit meaning of the commandment is don't murder people.  Christian theologians who are strongly anti-suicide and want to find their viewpoint in the Bible by using a bunch of vague verses have certainly done so.  I have read articles written to try to prove that suicide automatically equals hell based on Bible verses, and I have found such arguments unconvincing.

I definitely do not read the King James version of the Bible.  That's one of the worst versions you can possibly read.  You need to read a scholarly version that actually translates the Greek and Hebrew words correctly.  I would recommend the translations listed here:

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html#Bible-translations

If you are interested to learn more about my beliefs and why I am a universalist Christian, please visit my website:

http://www.christian-universalism.com

You may especially be interested to read my article called "Hell: Satan's Biggest Lie."  I show using many Bible quotes that the idea of eternal hell goes against the teachings of the Gospel and that Jesus and the Apostles taught universal reconciliation of all souls.

http://www.christian-universalism.com/articles/hell-satanic.html

I don't really want to argue with you about hell and the Bible, since that's not the purpose of this forum.  I encourage you to consider the universalist interpretation of Christianity if you feel like investigating this idea.

As for Jesus and negative emotions, I would suggest you reflect on the fact that Jesus was so emotionally distraught about his impending crucifixion that he actually sweated blood, according to the Gospel.  Medical science tells us that this is only possible under a condition of *extreme* emotional distress.  He also prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane to "take this cup from me," further showing his fear and negative emotions before he was going to be tortured and crucified.  If Jesus had not felt these emotions, he wouldn't have been fully human, which has always been the teaching of Christianity.  Jesus is fully human and fully divine, not just divine.  He had all the human temptations, emotions, frailties, etc. that we have.

And yes, Jesus did voluntarily choose to die, because he believed it was what God wanted him to do.  He says so himself:  "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:17-18 ).  Jesus is saying that when he is crucified, nobody actually kills him; he is killing himself, because he believed according to his conscience that God wanted him to die on the cross and would empower him to rise from the dead.  No wonder Jesus went to Jerusalem and allowed himself to be arrested, instructed his disciples not to prevent the Roman soldiers from capturing him, and did not speak out in his own defense at trial.  Pontius Pilate gave Jesus an opportunity to try to persuade him to let him go free, saying, "Do you refuse to speak to me?... Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" (John 19:10).  Jesus did everything possible to ensure that he would die.

A religion that was founded on an act of voluntary death should not be so quick to argue that *everyone* who chooses to die is *automatically* morally wrong and sentenced to hell.

Best wishes in Christ,
Freebird
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mystic_dreamer
Ex Member


Re: killing your self
Reply #34 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17am
 
Freebird:  you are absolutely right....I agree with you that this is not the place to argue about bible issues, specifically hell....suicide...etc.
You and I could argue endlessly over it....others would get involved and share their opinions..and before you know it, everyone is arguing over their belief...believing they are the 'right' choice to believe......resulting in the important part, lost.
We all have our own beliefs.....and who really knows for sure 'who' or 'what' is right?
In all the biblical translations that have been handed down...who knows, we could 'all' be wrong in the end.
For me, the bottom line is: the only way to eternal life is thru Jesus and accepting Him as my saviour.....and that is my belief.
A favourite verse I keep is: If you do not stand firm in your faith, then you do not stand at all.
I will tell you.....over the years my faith has wandered from one church belief to another. I was baptised a few years ago in a Mennonite Church...
I have so many different family members who call themselves Christian...all having a different religious church they belong too.....and yet, they all seem to be hypocrites. There is either no room for mistakes or they feel that their way is the only way and will argue with you until you finally see it their way.
Each religion thinks they are the 'right' one....the absolute truth of the matter....I GIVE UP.... and I gave up. I finally came to my own belief and that is:
....the 10 commandments are worthy of living by
....Jesus is the 'only' way
.....and to love all and anything with my heart..by my normal self, to love, forgive, help...show compassion to others...
.....and finally, the heck with what all these other religions say...because they 'really' don't know for sure one way or the other. They are just too busy always putting the other down...pointing out their faults and wrong doings...

Why make things complicated? Can't we keep it simple? So....simple is my way. It's like growing my own vegies...why worry about the rising cost, the pesticides, the dirty hands that previously touched them....what's in season, what's not.....keep it simple and grow my own. Just like my belief system.

I talk to God every day...I have asked for help when I couldn't do it alone anymore...and I received help. Simple.

I don't believe that suicide is the answer to any problem. God gave each of us life....He has a Plan for each and everyone of us....it does not include taking our life when the going gets too rough.
I have been suicidal....been there....too many times knocking on that door....and thank God I never did it. Or I wouldn't be here today....I have much to be thankful for now. I have way too much to be thankful for now. I wouldn't have seen that in those bad times....but getting thru it all...there is a light at the end of the  tunnel...and I am here now to be thankful for what I do have.....it may not seem much to others, but to me, it is everything that could possibly be good. And it all comes in the form of one little 4 year old girl...who has the love and innocense of all in her little heart...my granddaughter.

Freebird, I have been to your sites and read the things that you made available here.
It is all very interesting...alot I don't quite agree with...based on my own 'religious' upbringings over the years...however, interesting yes.

You are a strong young man...you have overcome a great hurdle in your young life...and you have alot to be thankful for yourself.
I appreciate you passing the site info on...
However....we will still disagree on a few issues!
On that note.....cheerio my friend!! And no hard feelings.... Grin...good luck in your work there!
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Brendan
Ex Member


"Thou shalt not kill"...
Reply #35 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 4:41am
 
As a prohibition against suicide...
How about swatting a mosquito, M.S. Or taking antibiotics to kill strep bacteria???
Or maybe that doesn't count as "killing"? Just how does one
go about interpreting this verse? (I understand the
Marines get around this issue by having their chaplains state, "Thou shalt not commit MURDER...")
But just what constitutes "murder" (if you want to split
hairs, that is.)
Oh well... if the Bible is true, then the universe was
created by a being who gets off on torturing sentient
life forms... it's His hobby apparently. (If "Yahweh" translated from the Hebrew into "The Big Puke", it would be oh-so-appropriate.) And since we can't kill Him (unfortunately) or otherwise stop Him, I guess we're all majorly
screwed in the long run... sooner or later, given INFINITY, we'll all end up in Hell anyhow.

B-man
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mystic_dreamer
Ex Member


Re: killing your self
Reply #36 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm
 
One thing I have never been able to understand about the Bible is it's point on killing. The 6th commandment is vague...thou shall not kill. Kill what? Another human? Human or animal? Both? Any life forms? Ourselves? Kill Bill?
In Jesus times...they went fishing...caught fish by the tonnes....Jesus even created a miracle and swamped a fisherman's nets in fish in a 'fishless' body of water.....ok, the fish were to eat. Kill first, then eat.
That is killing. So that is ok to kill an animal or fish if you are going to eat it? Then is it ok to kill a human if you plan to eat it afterward?
Some will say that it is bad to eat pork...because back in Jesus day, he cast a demon into a pig...and therefore, contaminated all pork meat from then on.
So then is it ok to kill if we do it with a good heart...it's ok to kill this animal because I am hungry and I need to eat....hmmmm, then should it be ok to kill if we are using our good heart to put some animal or human at peace to end it's suffering? compassion....
So...a vague commandment....or a contradiction? Or do you follow it to the nines?
Or...is this where prayer before your meals came into play....pray, give thanks for your food and ask for forgiveness for the slaughter of the animal meat that you are about to eat?
Kill a strep bug before it kills you? Are we suppposed to fight the infection with our own immune system and trust that God will cure you, if it is His way to do so? Some beliefs are that way you know....no medicine....no medical intervention...nothing, just trust in God and if He wants you better, He will make it so...if not, you're a walking dead man.
Killing the opposing soilder in war?
A phrase comes to mind: WWJD....what would Jesus do. Would he kill the enemy? Or would he hold faith?
Blind faith is something that the Bible talks about. Blind faith, to have faith in what you cannont see.
Blind faith or mind over matter?
Every single religious faith will have their own interpretations of what the Bible talks about..and usually, they all have different ideas. And they will argue to the end that they are the right one.
I gave up along time trying to figure out what the Bible means...it's too confusing and it's contradictory....what is right in one situation, is wrong in another.
I have a sister, who is Baptist. A brother who is Baptist......each live in a different part of the province and attend a separate Baptist church.........yet their beliefs are way different! My brother is a forgiving man...tolerant..accepting....my sister, it's either her way or no way. She hasn't talked to me in 3 years because she has disowned me...because I am a sinner, as she calls it. In the days when she was talking to me, it was because at that time, I was trying to 'learn'...so she was trying to dump her theologies into me...train me in her line of thinking. She would say never to let the sun go down on your enemies.....
Well holy...now she won't talk to me. She won't acknowledge me or my daughters....or my granddaughter...because she was born in 'sin'.
Well, ^@#&*) &%^ sister. Now she has 'let the sun go down' on her sister, never mind enemy....hypocrite. I find most so called christians that way. Walk into most churches for a service, looking slightly different that the 'norm'....and they shun you.
So I guess what I have done is to create my own belief system. And that is how I live today.
I already know in my heart what is 'right' from 'wrong'...and I listen to that.
I don't believe in wars....and I am sickened by the killings of innocent people. I hate it. I can't deal with the sufferings of people in 3rd world countries...at one time I wanted to go to those places and try to help....but really, what am I going to be able to do about it?
It's way too big of a piece of pie for me to handle.
For me....suicide is wrong. It doesn't really matter to me what the factor is, depressed...brain disease...or just fed up with life......suicide is wrong.
People who are severely depressed have overcome that state and are happy now...they found a way to see their suicide thru. Some maybe as the neighbour that you talked about....is suicide better than the torment now? I don't believe that it is an option. I don't believe that it is going to make him or anyone feel better to do that.
I believe that these feelings will follow you when you go over.....and how can they not? It's easy for everyone to believe that if you are happy when you go to the afterlife..and that you will be happy there......so why is so hard to understand that if you are tormented here, that you won't be once you get there?
Suicide isn't a quick fix.
And personally, if I had gone thru with that when I was at my worst, I wouldn't be here today to experience the best joys of my life.
I really can't imagine what it is like to physically and mentally scarred up from a horrific incident. But, if it is because of a mistake that I made, poor judgement, bad choice, and I am to live in a body for the rest of my earthly life...then you can be sure that will be alot of personal growth going on inside me and that is what is going to carry thru with me in the afterlife.  Wink
You will live this life much more enjoyably if you carry a positive attitude on your shoulders rather than a negative one.....whether you are messed up or not.....and carrying a huge chip on your shoulder.
You can be sure of this....what comes around, goes around...and, if you continue with your walk in this life with a miserable attitude (no matter what your reason is), you will only get miserable in return. Take the walk with a happy, positive outlook and you will get much more happiness back, including inward happiness....contentment. peace.
And this is a fact that you can trust. If you doubt it.....try it for awhile..and you will be amazed.
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jkeyes
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Re: killing your self
Reply #37 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 4:42pm
 
Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread and again, as always, you guys get me to thinking.  I’ve had trouble responding because my job can be so all consuming as part of my ego still has this obsessive idea that somehow I can catch up, like housework, and then I can mellow out Tongue. I work in the mental health field, you know with crazy people.  Some expect you to do a 12 hour job in 6 hours, others are on such a power trip that you loose heart in the miracles your facilitating through love because your forgot to dot the “i” in your documentation or that you forgot that you are the expert on the consumers problems and know what they should do with their lives ( Undecidedha,ha) Roll Eyes, and still others, in position of power, are so full of themselves that they are rude and discounting with no apologies (I’m learning that apologies are hard to come by especially to the consumers of M.H. from “experts” in the mental health field???).  And then there are my clients who are doing the very best they can even if they are so depressed that they want out, who would blame them they really aren’t getting the whole story of being human from anyone and still others, who see the pink bunnies and aren’t getting any sound truth either so at least there are meds in the mean time.  But when I come to this board and read the responses from those of you who are honestly kicking your thoughts and experiences around in a safe and supportative environment, I get a break and can shift gears. 


One of the things that I’ve been reminded of is Louise Hay’s, Heal Your Body and her affirmations.  I’m looking at them and even though she relates body problems, not situations, to her affirmations I think that both can be connected to human life lessons that we might need to learn.  I looked up burns, just out of curiosity because it was mentioned here.  She lists burns as a physical symptom and goes on to offer probable root causes such as anger, burning up, and/or [being] incensed.  She offers this “New Thought Patten”, I create only peace and harmony within myself and in my environment. I deserve to feel good.   I thought to myself, Wow what a lesson and even if I was immobile in a nursing home and couldn’t even think straight because of the pain from burns, if someone caring for me aided me by actively valuing my core, I might come around to this way of thinking in regards to myself or I might get enough of a break from “making a living” to get back to this core belief by myself.  Either way, I could rack up one more valuable lesson while in the human body.

Another book that I thought of, while reading this thread, was Michael Newton’s, Destiny of Souls, where he discusses between life memories of souls entries into the human fetus.  The way I see it, we have so many different souls coming into a body to learn various lessons and combos of lessons that it’s hard to judge from the outside exactly what the other needs to learn or teach.  Some might be new souls who are experiencing bodies for the first time and get a bit carried away with it emotional elements or souls from another dimension who have trouble adjusting to this dense emotional level.  Like one of the guys in Newton’s book who came here from a mental dimension to train for the area of adjusting to different dimensions.  His first chosen life here was in Calcutta a number of years ago as a poor person.  Needless to say, he was not really keen on coming back but he did, as a Japanese scientist in today’s America.  Reminded me of Monroe’s coming from another dimension previous to his incarnations here and periodically went back to visit when he was alive.  Newton’s interviewees also explained that those who were more experienced, could adjust the human body in physical ways to be able to accomplish the tasks necessary for them to grow spiritually while others were thrown off by their inability to fine tune their human vehicle and are possibly some of the individuals who whined up in Mental Health Institutions or prisons.  I think that most of us one this board are getting pretty good at working with the human body in spite of its problems and getting to the point of where we really want understand the whole situation. In fact some are seriously considering doing their own explorations beyond the physical while others are already doing and still others are satisfied with studying the words of explorers who did the traveling in the past, lived to tell the tale, and had their tales turned into dogma.  As far as Jesus goes, I take him at his word when he suggested that we each would do more than he did.  I think that we are starting to and part of this is because of him and also that our population and technology are at a point where we are exposed more of ourselves/each other than ever before.

So if you guys are ever looking for a great modern day Westerner’s list of possible learning areas that’s simple to follow, check out Hay’s and if any of you are interested in how and why we pick the lives, challenges, or bodies we do, check out Newton’s reports from his clients.


I’m aware of the limitations in our communication as I try to explain a many sided experience in duality language.  It’s like we have to start holding two seemingly opposite thoughts in our minds to grasp the more accurate picture of who, why, and where we are. Like we have a sequence of personality experiences while at the same time we’re probes/expressions happening all at the same time.  Monroe saw all his probes together on a few of his journeys while at the same time, he was he viewing himself.  Or that a repetitive murder is perfection in spirit while at the same time corruption on the physical plane and a loving father/mother.  It’s a lot like juggling but then again maybe that’s what being in the human form is all about.   


As am aside, when I started out this week, I had a pretty bad attitude about work and started referring to it as the job from H**l again instead of sending it my blessings.  Well, anyhow, my husband took pity on me and knowing how much I value the belief of expecting Miracles every day, said, “You know Jean, I feel that a big Miracle is beginning to happen.”  It perked up my attitude a bit but I still came home from work Monday and Tuesday in a funk stating and yelled,  “No Miracles today!”  But on Wednesday a coworker, the one that keeps seeing 11:11, said that he had a dream about me.  I seems that a few of my coworkers are having dreams about each other while I can’t remember a thing but wake up with the feeling that I’ve been having a lot of conversations with others during the night.  Anyhow, I ask him what the dream was about.  He tells of meeting with me outside my shop in this cozy little university town every day to swap ideas and generally have some great discussions.  He leaves at the end of the month to start teaching again.  So after I walk away from him, I realize that that was a Miracle.  Here this guy tells me his dream, which immediately took me out of my doldrums at work because I could see myself in that life, either here or there, living with such joy.  I started realizing that there is a life beyond my current career that I imagine and visualize.  All because another individual cared enough to share a night memory with love.  Now that to me is the miracle.   

MD-Sandy, keep up the good work-your beautiful and yes our experience with time was exactly the same-ref. How it feels...!!! Alysia-LOVE YA!!! Freebird-glad you’re still hangin’ in there with us NEW AGERS or whatever’s.  Nomad-re: killing your self, “Why give up 5 minutes before the Miracle and have regrets as you look back from a larger perspective?  To the witless-they’re gonna’  do whatever they have to do, but who am I to judge them as I’ve probably done it somewhere along the line and I don’t support anyone else’s judging them either. hiorta-always welcome your input as I do dave’s. Lucy-so often I want to touch base with you-to give feedback but time can be such a factor, value your input. B-man-you do help me to think and make my responses somewhat clear and so does the new guy Kardec.  Welcome Kardec and thanks for the observation that you raise your energetic as you finally “get it”.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. Jean Kiss Kiss Kiss
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Rob_Roy
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Re: killing your self
Reply #38 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 10:10pm
 
Freebird,

The KJV may indeed be one of the worst translations available today, but it is beautiful within a liturgical setting where the its poetic english is unequaled. And the dedication letter to HRH Prince James is a nice read (when included!).

Bob
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Lucy
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Re: killing your self
Reply #39 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 12:26pm
 
Jean I was thinking of Ram Dass when I read your post. Didn't he write about avoiding burnout in the helping professions?

That reminded me of a story he told about a young man who did commit suicide. This was a long time ago, in a segment of a talk about what do you say to comfort parents whose children die under exceedingly tragic circumstances (like the people recently in Idaho). The guy went to a cave before he died, to be alone. I can't remember how he came into the knowledge, but there was some kind of coming to knowing that this life was not the right one for this individual. I felt like you have to reach that kind of conclusion after the fact because you have to make peace with the situation. But if it is "before" then you can't say it is the best path. So I guess there are different answers for "before" or "after."

So Jean if your clients could come to the board and kick these ideas around with us, do you think it would help them? Maybe they aren't in a good place for using computer. I volunteered in a mental hospital one semester in school. I had a selfish motive. I thought maybe I was nuts. I didn't get an answer but I could also see that I was not like the people incarcerated there. I mean, in mental state. But I did come to see that they were human. It was a strange place. I imagine things have improved since then. I do think even some of the staff viewed them as things, not people. Do you workin an institution like that? I think that would be very hard emotionally. Maybe the rude ones are there also to confirm that they are 'not like that', and their fear that they really are makes them rude. When you talk about this core, I think we all know when it is violated, but we can't define what it is.

I wish I could cheer you up but I'm at a low point myself right now..little mini belief system crashes maybe...so I'll just wish you well. When I was a kid, I used to think that I was suppoed to develop enough joy so that when i wlaked into a room, my joy..turned everyone to Christ, or something like that. I gave up on Christianity and I got/am too involved in reactions to violating my core, but maybe just for a minute I'll think of joining you at that college-town cafe and beam some PUL to everyone there. Well at least it sounds like a fun thing to imagine! More fun tha the alternative we've been discussing. As the bumper sticker says, Expect A Miracle!
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Brendan
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Yeah, Freebird, poor kid indeed...
Reply #40 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:08pm
 
The logical fact is, however... that if "Yahweh", the
God of the Bible exists... then we are ALL screwed eventually.
This is because "Yahweh" so dearly loves and cherishes TORTURE, he makes guys like Caligula, Tomas Torquemada, Vlad the Impaler, and Idi Amin look like Don Knotts by comparison. Read your Bible!!! (Gotta love Leviticus, and that ol'  Book of Joshua...)
Logically, given eternity, He'd get bored and put all the SAVED people through the "sin" wringer again... and so ultimately we're all headed for Hell, if old Yahweh is for real.
Sorry to break this to you Freebird, but you've chosen to worship a MONSTER, a demon-god. The trouble with Universalism is it tries (pathetically) to turn this ferocious, "jealous", "man of war" deity into some kind of "Aunt Santa in the sky."
What can I say? Except that your beliefs are understandable, we're group/herd animals after all (myself included!) and there's lots of people out there who'd approve of - and encourage - your faith. It's oh-so Politically Correct...

B-man
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freebird
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Re: killing your self
Reply #41 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:56pm
 
Quote:
People who are severely depressed have overcome that state and are happy now...they found a way to see their suicide thru.


Some have, and some have not.  Luck plays a big role in this.  For example, does a person have a good response, no response, or bad response to antidepressant drugs and therapies?  Things don't work the same way for every person -- which is why there are some people who go through a period of severe depression and recover, and others who do not recover.  It's a bad idea to make generalizations such as that everyone always finds a happy ending in their life if they just try hard enough, wait long enough, etc.  Sometimes it works that way, and other times it doesn't.  There is a full range of human experience in this world, ranging from very positive to very negative, and any philosophy we choose to believe in must acknowledge that fact and confront it and make sense of it.  Free will cannot solve everyone's problems all the time.  There is also a place for God's mercy upon those who are fallen and cannot lift themselves up with their own efforts.  That's an essential part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Sometimes divine mercy comes in this life, and other times not until the next life.

Quote:
is suicide better than the torment now? I don't believe that it is an option. I don't believe that it is going to make him or anyone feel better to do that.
I believe that these feelings will follow you when you go over.....and how can they not?


It's very easy to see why they might not: the brain.  If you don't have a brain when you're dead, and the brain is the cause of your depression, then presumably you will be free of the depression when your brain is dead.  It's the exact same way that a person with Alzheimers will be free of confusion and memory loss, and a retarded person will be free of stupidity.

That's not to say that suicide is a good idea, because in most cases it's probably not, since living with depression can be a powerful lesson of spiritual growth.  But generally speaking, the torment of depression *itself* is likely to disappear on the other side just like any other brain disorder.  If it didn't, things wouldn't make any sense.  There might be some kind of regret or feelings of not having tried hard enough, or feelings of guilt for hurting loved ones, in some cases of suicide.  It probably depends a lot on the individual situation.

Quote:
It's easy for everyone to believe that if you are happy when you go to the afterlife..and that you will be happy there......so why is so hard to understand that if you are tormented here, that you won't be once you get there?


Um, no.  It's not "easy for everyone to believe" that happiness in this life equals happiness in the afterlife, or the other way around.  In fact, this radical new age doctrine makes little sense at all, and most people reject it as ridiculous.

Consider the case of a terrorist who straps on a suicide belt and blows himself up along with innocent people in a bus.  That fanatical Islamic terrorist, I can assure you, is *very happy* right before he presses the button to detonate the bomb.  People who do this are taught that if they kill themselves and kill the "infidels" they will immediately go to heaven and be married to 72 beautiful virgins.  They fully expect to experience paradise when they detonate the bomb.  But common sense and the teachings of all major religions tell us that in reality, although they were happy before they died, they will immediately be transported to hell after they press the button.  In other words, their emotional state will be *instantaneously* changed from happiness to misery, because of their evil actions.

So, therefore, we can also surmise that there are some cases where a person who died unhappy and depressed will suddenly feel peace and happiness after they leave their body.  In fact, there are many such cases reported in NDE literature.  The state we find ourselves in after we die depends a lot more on what we deserve, not merely a continuation of what we already had.  Jesus even taught this in the Beatitudes.

Quote:
I really can't imagine what it is like to physically and mentally scarred up from a horrific incident. But, if it is because of a mistake that I made, poor judgement, bad choice, and I am to live in a body for the rest of my earthly life


Some people end up in such a situation not because of any choice of their own, but because of an accident or situation that was beyond their control.  The question then becomes, how can they grow from it or teach others from it?  In most cases, they can do so in some valuable way by continuing to live.  In some extreme cases, maybe continuing to live is beyond the ability of their soul to bear, and would only damage their soul and fill them with hate, and hurt other people even more.  It's God's judgment on a case-by-case basis, not our own judgment to make generalizations that in *every* case, living as long as possible is the best decision to make.  In cases of extreme unrelenting suffering, a person must carefully weigh the issue of whether their continued life or death is the better decision.  I think in some cases it is far from clear-cut.  It depends on the ability of the soul to withstand suffering and the effects that either a life of misery or an untimely death would have on others.

Quote:
...then you can be sure that will be alot of personal growth going on inside me and that is what is going to carry thru with me in the afterlife.


Honestly, I don't think anyone who has not experienced a particular situation of extreme torment in life should make such claims.  You don't really know how you would feel if you were the person whose entire body was covered with third-degree burns and/or who ended up mentally ill and in an institution for the rest of your life.  Only if you experience it yourself can you say for sure that such would be a valuable experience for personal growth; and some people in those situations disagree that it is, beyond a certain point of misery and hopelessness.  It might even damage the soul, since it can cause people to develop tremendous levels of existential angst, self-hatred, jealousy of others who have it easy, anger at God, etc.  Nobody knows what something really feels like or what it's value might be or not be until they experience it personally.

Quote:
You will live this life much more enjoyably if you carry a positive attitude on your shoulders rather than a negative one.....whether you are messed up or not.....and carrying a huge chip on your shoulder.
You can be sure of this....what comes around, goes around...and, if you continue with your walk in this life with a miserable attitude (no matter what your reason is), you will only get miserable in return. Take the walk with a happy, positive outlook and you will get much more happiness back, including inward happiness....contentment. peace.
And this is a fact that you can trust. If you doubt it.....try it for awhile..and you will be amazed.


First of all, the very definition of mental illness is that one cannot control one's own thoughts and attitude.  So your theory simply fails in such cases.  Free will is not absolute, especially in the realm of thoughts and emotions.

Secondly, making sweeping statements such as "this is a fact you can trust" about the idea that trying to be happy will automatically make you happy, is not a very accurate thing to say, IMO.  There are some people for whom these approaches don't work.  I happen to be one of them.  I have tried the whole positive attitude thing, and it didn't cure my depression.  What does help me to some extent with depression is to focus on doing good deeds for other people, and speading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  But even that doesn't take away the underlying disease of my brain.  Nor does prayer.  I have tried that too, and it did not cure me.

I endure, not because I am particularly worried about a God who will roast me alive if I kill myself, but simply because I want to use my precious time on earth to do some good.  As long as I still can, I hope to stick around on this planet.  I would make the same recommendation to anyone else considering suicide.  I would also recommend that people not judge and condemn those whose problems were probably more severe than you can really understand unless you've experienced it yourself.  I think God is much more compassionate than we give Him credit for.

Peace,
Freebird
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freebird
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Re: Yeah, Freebird, poor kid indeed...
Reply #42 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 3:04pm
 
Quote:
Sorry to break this to you Freebird, but you've chosen to worship a MONSTER, a demon-god. The trouble with Universalism is it tries (pathetically) to turn this ferocious, "jealous", "man of war" deity into some kind of "Aunt Santa in the sky."


The God of the Old Testament is much harsher than the God of Jesus in the New Testament.  Personally, I don't believe a whole lot of what is written about the character of God in the Hebrew Torah.  And I don't believe Jesus was particularly pro-Judaism, either.  I believe Jesus's ideas are more similar to Buddhism than Old Testament Judaism, though he did preach in a Hebrew cultural context that colors a lot of what he said.  In the New Testament, universalism is the prevailing belief (some get saved in this life and everyone else gets saved by the end of the ages), although admittedly some verses can be interpreted to promote annihilation of the wicked.  In general, I don't think the torturing-god of the Old Testament is really what Jesus wanted people to believe.  I think his sayings indicate belief in a God of Love and forgiveness rather than torture.

Quote:
there's lots of people out there who'd approve of - and encourage - your faith. It's oh-so Politically Correct...


Not really.  My faith is not liberal enough for the new agers, and not conservative enough for the Bible thumpers.  I guess I try to follow a middle way, which I believe is closer to the truth.  Some are attracted to it, mostly people who are leaving fundamentalist Christianity and want to retain their belief in Jesus as Lord without all the focus on hellfire and torture and a god of vengeance.

Peace,
Freebird
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alysia
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Re: killing your self
Reply #43 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 5:01pm
 
I support Universalism church, I mean I don't attend it, but I've checked them out and I was happy to see how they accept everybody without judgment. I'm with Freebird here, that love and forgiveness is what Jesus's message was, and not only that, I tried it out (forgiveness) and it works for me, to free me up, to make me lighter, to face a new day with hope, to feel better about myself, to try to see the good in people even if what happened seemed really horrible or unfair, I can study the situation, maybe asking myself how a more enlightened person, perhaps even Jesus, might look upon the situation, how he or she would be able to forgive, or to give as before, is what I see forgiveness as. generally, theres nothing to forgive when I see that I do create my own reality, nobody has did anything to me to forgive. then I am freed up.  maybe I didn't see it coming, but then you can bet it won't happen to me twice because once is enough to learn how I created it,or how I'm responsible for what I perceive,felt, experienced. but yes, like Jesus, I want to be helpful, I want to love people because by loving, we can heal our world. by forgiving we can have a new day free of pain or hurt. I cannot see any other way than this. I see Universal church as a new age church where they are trying to put their feet where their mouth is. if you've walked among those people you cannot help but love them. perhaps they are more political than Christian churches with a fundamentalist outlook but this is because they are reaching out for the world view trying to reduce the breach between religious principle and politics.
love is the way....alysia
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mystic_dreamer
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Re: killing your self
Reply #44 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm
 
ok Freebird.......point heard. Have you ever read the poem: FOOTPRINTS?  It talks about the Lord carrying you thru each day when you cannont do it on your own anymore. Lift up your hand and ask Him and he will be there.
Furthermore....the Bible teaches that our bodies are the Holy Temple of Christ. We cannot wreck or destroy them. He also gave us 'life' and with that life, comes His Plan. To committ suicide, takes away that Plan, forever. Not what God wants.
So....if a person is severely depressed, I will say that it is God's Plan....and sooner or later, you will know what it is.
Maybe makes our life here a hellish one...but you can take comfort in the fact that in Heaven, you will have peace.
Lastly....I can speak on severe burns and carrying a positive attitude. 20 years ago, my ex husband dumped a huge pot of boiled, scalding water from the stove, all over my back. At first it felt icy cold...seconds later, the pain seared thru me. I couldn't do much at first because I was holding my 4 month old daughter at the time...and thank christ the water didn't touch her.
Once I had put her down, I literally peeled my t-shirt off myself. There was several layers of skin gone......over my entire back. He wouldn't let me go get medical help. Instead, he kept me barracaded inside that apartment for 5 days.....in which, my entire back turned into one huge water blister......nearly a quart and a half of water. I couldn't have anything touch it....the most painful thing that I have ever experienced. On about the 6th day, it started to go black and there was black stuff rubbing off onto anything that came into contact with my back. Then he panicked and allowed me to finally see a doctor, as long as he was allowed to sit in the examing room with me....the doctor was sickened at what he saw.
Today, I bear the scarring across my back. It's ugly....disfiguring alright.....I will not wear anything that shows my back at all and I have let very few people see it.
I think I know alittle bit about pain, suffering and trying to maintain a positive attitude.
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