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New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash (Read 5850 times)
freebird
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New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
May 3rd, 2005 at 11:42pm
 
Hello friends,

Reading some of the posts on this board recently has made me even more acutely aware of something I have been thinking about for the past few years: the danger of fundamentalism, or an excessive commitment to ideological views that are merely opinions, not necessarily truths that can be supported by logic and evidence.  As I have grown spiritually over time, I have increasingly realized that the number one mistake people make that diminishes their potential for spiritual growth is fundamentalism.  This tendency can be found within ALL religious and philosophical traditions, including that which is known as the "New Age."  Open mindedness and reason are the antidotes to fundamentalism and allow for people to grow in a search for truth.  When we open our minds to ideas other than what we already believe, and we analyze these ideas with the tool of reason, we may progress into a deeper understanding of the truth.  If we are willing to do this, we may experience a belief system crash as we realize that some of our old opinions were false and that we must cast them aside.

I have had three belief system crashes in my life.  The first one was when I was 17 or 18 years old, when I realized that some of the New Age ideas I had enthusiastically embraced as a teenager were suspect or erroneous.  I became an agnostic.  Later on, in college, I accepted the Baha'i religion and became overly ideological about that, until finally in my early 20's I had another belief system crash.  Then I converted to Christianity, and again, became too ideological and was basically a Bible-thumping fundamentalist for a couple years.  See a pattern developing here?  Yes, indeed, I went through another belief system crash during the past year when I realized the Bible is not inerrant and many fundamentalist Christian doctrines such as eternal hell are wrong.  Now I consider myself a universalist Christian, a follower of Jesus who recognizes that no one book or one religious tradition has all the correct answers, but believes that the original teachings of Jesus such as love, forgiveness, mercy, and a morally upright self-sacrificial lifestyle are the best way to find God and spiritual growth.

The point I want to make is that if there is any single lesson I have learned so far in my short 26 years on this planet, it is that becoming too staunch and ideological in your beliefs is a bad idea.  Fundamentalism is an attitude, and it is crippling to spiritual growth.  There are Christian fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists, New Age fundamentalists, and all other kinds of fundamentalists.  They are all deluding themselves and keeping themselves spiritually stagnant.

I think the New Age religion is heading for a belief system crash, because it has become too fundamentalist.  You can tell this is going to happen when you see people promoting ideas that don't really make any sense, just because it is part of their ideology that they subscribe to -- and especially when they shun objectivity and reason as a way to find truth, in favor of only personal experience and opinion.  It's sad to see, especially among people who profess to be more open minded than traditional religious people.

For example, take the issue of NDEs.  If you look at any one person's NDE, you could draw theological or metaphysical conclusions from it, but if you look at 10 more NDEs, you become much less certain about any conclusions.  Study hundreds of NDEs and a few basic truths seem to emerge, while many issues remain unresolved.  The point is, it is misguided to base your beliefs on a few individual experiences that promote doctrines you already happen to be comfortable with, rather than consider a wide range of evidence that might challenge you to reconsider or even change your mind on some important issues.

Here's another example: channeling.  New Agers often follow channeled messages as if they were holy scripture, and mediums as if they were infallible prophets.  The problem is, the messages conflict!  Sometimes the contradictions between different purported messages and messengers from the other side are so great as to render it impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from the body of material as a whole.  Cults form around different mediums and channelings, and that is just another form of fundamentalism -- ignoring the bigger picture and the need for rational analysis of various ideas and experiences to find what is true and what is false.

Please understand, I am not criticizing the folks here.  A lot of you I really like and respect.  I have gained much from being here and talking with others on this board, and I expect to stick around at least in the near future.  But I just wanted to make an observation that has been crystalizing in my mind over the past few months from my participation in this message board.  The observation is this: We don't know as much as we think we know, and if we cannot back up a truth claim through logic and evidence, perhaps we should not be so bold as to claim it as truth.  There is such a thing as rational analysis of ideas in a search to separate truth from mere possibility or opinion.  This seems to be sorely lacking on this forum.  People like to talk about "my truth" and "your truth," as if anyone can just believe anything they want without regard for whether it is actually, objectively true in the real universe.  That is where the New Age goes wrong, where the New Age becomes just another form of fundamentalism.

The reason I participate on this forum is because I am a Christian who has many New Age ideas and is much more open minded than most Christians are, and I am genuinely interested in stepping outside the box of Christianity to find truth wherever it may be.  I would be considered a heretic by many Christians because I am very non-traditional in some of my beliefs.  I believe in NDEs, OBEs, astral projection, UFOs and aliens, universalism, and the legitimacy of diverse ways of approaching the divine.  But I do value the traditional idea that we need to seek the One Truth which is beyond ourselves.  Religious people who think they have found the absolute truth of God can easily become fundamentalists.  So too can New Agers who think they already have the truth within themselves become fundamentalist in their attitude, and unwilling to look outside of their own thoughts, beliefs, experiences, and biases to find a higher reality that transcends the self -- a reality that is truly real, in an objective sense that is meaningful to all people.

I decided to start this thread because maybe it will get people here thinking about the danger of fundamentalism, including New Age fundamentalism, and how it stunts spiritual growth.  Having been through a few belief system crashes myself, still at a young age, I would say: Go for it!  It's the only way to grow.  Don't cling to ideas that you know, deep down inside, could be faulty.  Be willing to put them aside or modify your point of view if you find ideas that seem to make more sense according to evidence presented and rational argumentation -- even if those ideas are not consistent with New Age orthodoxy -- even if those ideas are sometimes to be found in the realm of traditional religion, science, or other realms of thought that are typically disliked by proponents of the New Age.

Okay, that's enough sermonizing by me.  Maybe something I said will resonate with someone or spark some thought or discussion.

Peace,
Freebird
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Glen
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #1 - May 4th, 2005 at 12:27pm
 
Hi Freebird,

Nice speech, and thanks for sharing your opinions. You said, "People like to talk about "my truth" and "your truth," as if anyone can just believe anything they want without regard for whether it is actually, objectively true in the real universe.  That is where the New Age goes wrong, where the New Age becomes just another form of fundamentalism."

Okay, so you believe in the existence of objective truth. That's fine with me. I'm not criticizing you. I just thought I'd point out that that is a part of your own personal truth. There may actually be some kind of objective truth, or maybe not. I don't know. I only know what I believe on this subject, and now I know what you believe too. Objective truth may just be one of the illusions some people believe in. All we can really know for sure is what our own personal beliefs are.

Now, since one of my beliefs is that we create our own personal realities through our beliefs, I would say that objective truth is real for you; that you have such a deep belief in its existence that for you there's no question about it.

Having clarified this, my question for you is, "Do you believe that people can know what the objective truth is, or do you agree with me that all we can have (even if there might be an objective truth) is our own beliefs about what the truth is?"

Cheers,
Glen
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Mactek
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #2 - May 4th, 2005 at 3:09pm
 
Dear Freebird,

The attachment that people have in labeling themselves and others causes us to think in terms of "us" versus "them".  You are doing it in this very post.  You have to be able to see the divinity in everyone beginning with yourself.

You mention truth.  You will never find a all-encompassing Truth (captial T) while in the world.  That is left to God.  All you can do is to discover your own personal truth (lowercase).  Don't worry about what others are believing in or what labels they are attaching to themselves or to you.

Your personal truth will never be found outside of yourself.  It's not a belief that you can adopt.  It is only found within... right where it's always been.
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Boris
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #3 - May 4th, 2005 at 4:27pm
 
It is interesting that the first two responses you got came out
exactly as you predicted. People at this stage are saying that they
deal in individual truth, rather than "established" truth.

I myself am almost dogmatic about saying that there is no pure
source of truth available to us. I find some problem with most of
the supposed sources, especially channeled sources.

But that is talking about this particular area of exploration,
which is producing some of the most diverse results of any field of
exploration. What we are used to is the traditional process by
which scientists discuss and debate until they find things that can
be repeatedly replicated, and eventually established so that they
appear in textbooks.

But knowledge has an intermediate stage where what we get is not so
much established knowledge, but what you might call establishment
by numbers. That is, more and more people start to think that way.
Meanwhile fewer and fewer people continue to think the other way.

In my world, I consider reincarnation to be "established by
numbers". That is, so many people who are relatively "spiritually
advanced", whatever that is, believe in it, that for me, for all
practical purposes it is true. This means I can safely talk about
it as if it were true, and not expect problems, most of the time.
It is also backed up by substantial evidence.

But until that stage is reached, on some question, we will pretty
much be dealing with "individual truth". Individual truth is where
people run to, when we are frustrated in not getting a consensus,
but go on knowing what we think we know, from our own perceptions.

I do feel, however, that some people will be much more prone to
seek an consensus than others, trying to see what we can establish,
and this is what leads to building up of what we call knowledge.
That is why I am willing to slog in there and create controversy,
because these discussions are essential to seeing what is true and
what isn't. But many of the people on this board would rather just
leave it alone, let it be, and retreat into individual truth.
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alysia
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #4 - May 4th, 2005 at 7:14pm
 
Quote:
Dear Freebird,

The attachment that people have in labeling themselves and others causes us to think in terms of "us" versus "them".  You are doing it in this very post.  You have to be able to see the divinity in everyone beginning with yourself.

You mention truth.  You will never find a all-encompassing Truth (captial T) while in the world.  That is left to God.  All you can do is to discover your own personal truth (lowercase).  Don't worry about what others are believing in or what labels they are attaching to themselves or to you.

Your personal truth will never be found outside of yourself.  It's not a belief that you can adopt.  It is only found within... right where it's always been.

__________
thank you Mactek. I feel better now. never did care for labels, especially for people. labels belong on canned products, not people.
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Berserk
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #5 - May 4th, 2005 at 7:35pm
 
Freebird, marvellous personal testimonial and exposition of the dangers of a Fundamentalist mentality.  Unfortunately most people seem to want dangerously simple answers to bafflingly complex questions.  So Fundamentalist churches seem to prosper more than liberal churches.  What bothers me even more is this: God generally seems to bless the Fundamentalist churches with more mystical experiences of God's presence, more answers to prayer, and more miracles than the more liberal type of church you and I might feel comfortable attending. That's why all the miracles I experienced at a more liberal church I pastored gives me hope that the right balance might eventually be achieved. 

About 7 people on this site have asked for my recommendations on the type of church to seek out.   I'm hard pressed to give them a confident answer.  I never suggest particular denominations or systems of doctrine.  Instead I offer advice like this: Find a church where you immediately sense the presence and power of God and feel immersed in a loving congregation.  Though such churches exist, they are not common in my experience. 

Don
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #6 - May 4th, 2005 at 8:16pm
 
Hi Freebird

Fascinating post! I fully agree.

Alysia accused me of being a paid teacher, which was true a few years back,  and occasionally I still train therapists. But teaching and such is precisely the place that fundamentalism takes root. Whether it's faith in Buddha, Jesus, Einstein or the Big Green Cheese, as soon as it gets taken on faith, and not on experience, it's going to crash.

You suggested that the New Age thing will collapse soon. I agree. My honest guess is that we're going to have a breakthrough in understanding that will lead us to view the world differently. But, rather than becoming spiritual, we'll go into the direction of materialism, as did the hippies of my ancient era. After all, you can sell a chemical orgasm or a spiritual high, while there's very little demand for assistance in helping someone clean up a wretched lifestyle. (That's one of the reasons I like Bruce's work training people to do retrievals.)

Worse yet, I'm one of the materialists who is likely to feed into the New Age crash. I've been working with perception in multiple dimensions and math models of subjective state space, like the "place" in which we think, or the "place" that spirits exist. (I have a How-To buried somewhere in my site at mind-body-spirit-hypnoclinic.com) and it looks to me that we're heading to te same place that the Stanford "remote viewing" think tank, and the like, would take us.

About all I can say is that if we keep the faith, we can retain our own stability while the rest of the world crumbles around us.  (That's how I survived when the Haight-Ashbury turned from a search for enlightenment to a search for a stronger drug.) I suspect Alysia would say the same - notice how she ends everything with love? Love, joy and wisdom are about the only things that will remain stable.

And then there's a second factor. Last time I posted anything metaphysical I fried my monitor. Karma?

dave
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Nje
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #7 - May 5th, 2005 at 8:25am
 
I just don't understand  this whole "reality may not be objective" belief.

If reality's not objective, that in itself is objective.

It suggests there are no true laws of nature, and that consciousness is the only driving factor to existence, to anything.  That's the objective of reality.

..but, if that's true, how did consciousness come into existence if it is the sole driving force in the universe?

How can something exist in absolute void?

Consciousness would be needed to ensure consciousness existed.

It would have to simultaneously exist and make the objectivity of it's existence.
It needs to exist to make this action, but it can't exist without having made this action.

It's a logical fallacy.

..am I making any sense here?
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Ellen2
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #8 - May 5th, 2005 at 10:53am
 
Dear Freebird:  Love your post.  I've been following this site, mostly lurking, because I'm new to the spiritual quest thing; my interest being prompted by a family crisis.  I was not raised in any spiritual tradition.  (Could someone please define "New Age")  I know "Christianity", as a gross generalization,  is about using Jesus as an inspiration, although there are as many variations  as there appears to be New Age variations.  This site is presenting a most unpleasant dichotomy between Christiantiy vs New Age.  Don't both "Christianity" & "New Age" have an interest in the afterlife?  In my naivity, I thought everyone has something to offer.  I've been leaning towards Christianity:  long tradition. lovely concepts especially as presented by Christian mystics like Swedenborg (I'm picking & choosing what speaks to me).  Christianity is not a uniform homogenous monolith, which is how many  "New Agers" have reacted to the recent Christian threads (caricaturizing).  And now my favourite Christian & New Age posters have had a falling out.  Are posters getting defensive because they are guarding against a belief system crash?
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #9 - May 5th, 2005 at 11:15am
 
Hi Nje-

Your question is excellent. Reminds me of my own objections to "metaphysical crap" before I had an experience that changed my perpsective.

The problem is meanings. What you mean by "objective", such as the "objective fact" that "one plus one makes two" (in most number systems) may differ from the "objective fact" that "I have fingers".  And both of those differ from the "logically objective fact" that the two statements differ in some manner etc.

Our "laws of nature" are simply opinions of what is consistent, so they can be reduced to experiences, hence consciousness.  If I am aware of being conscious, then it makes no difference where I am, whether in an absolute void (whatever that might mean), or in some "objective place" (whatever else that might be).  Once consciousness is aware of itself, it generates its own nature indefinitely forward as the conditions of its own existence. This is essentially what you do in the first two minutes of the day when you awaken.

However, allow your mind to bend in a slightly different direction, a non-objective one. Voidness has two kinds of definitions, one is that it has no properties of any sort, so that definitions can point to it, but never describe it. Thus, it exists by default, as an inaccessible state that is forever non-contingent and distinct.  Or, voidness is a vastness so immense that no matter what you stuff into it, you  can never fill it. In this case, it is so immense that all definitions fall short. Both of these are valid and they stand in an "objective relationship" to one another, in the sense that their relationship is well defined. Further, that relationship is not limiting, because it is not imposed on voidness, but may be contained as a potentiality within the nature of voidness, just as your gas tank has the potentiality to hold more fuel.

In fact, voidness has the ability to contain all potentialities, since it cannot be filled,  Those potentialities are "objective" to whatever degree you desire, and they exist in voidness. One of the potentialities is that there exists a configuration of potentialities, and of that configuration, one of the potentialities is that it looks just like you and me in the physical world, together with our everyday consciousness. Another potentiality of all the configurations of potentialities is that all of this stuff is of a single nature from which an infinity of realities are emitted. So you get something for nothing, and here we are.

Your objection that this is a logical fallacy is well put in the sense that there is no definitive posture by which to validate it that also lies external to the issues. As a result, the logic is circular. But that does not make it fallacious. The circularity is contained within the experience of the meta-consciousness, we might call it the Cosmic Conscious, Brahman, God-Mind, or whatever. This is the consciousness that told us initially, "I am that I am," which I suggest means something like, "I exist in order that I am to be existing."  In other words, a circular self-generated existence.

In Egyptian mythology, Khephera tells us that he brought himself forth by grasping his own generative nature within his own operative nature (phrased in termsof masturbation inmodern translations) and thus expelled forth from himself the expansive nature of the endless sky, Shu, and the concrete nature of the definitive locations withn it, Tefnut.

In the world of projected potetialities we have collections of potential states, potentially relating to one another in various ways, giving rise to traits and properties, some of which evolve to look like Bruce's disks from which specific potential personalities can be projected. If you want to pursue these ideas you might look into combinatorial topology. Or, equally useful, meditate with the intent of perceiving and understanding that actual truth, as it exists for you.

You're definitely making sense!
dave
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Boris
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #10 - May 5th, 2005 at 5:55pm
 
"Are posters getting defensive because they are guarding against a
belief system crash?"

Yes, Ellen I think so. I think that had something to do with a
recent post to me, that came from emotion, not reason.

One person's crash is another person's liberation from intellectual
oppression.  When I feel that I am surrounded by ideas gone
haywire, I feel intellectually oppressed, and am likely to use very
strong language in order to make myself heard.

I am sympathetic to the person whose beliefs are crashing.
I have recently come into the idea of the importance of salvaging
the part of the belief that is not going to crash. For instance,
even though a lot of us do not accept the book of Genesis, we are
enjoying the safety and comfort of a society built by people who
brought the Bible with them, and built a civilization containing
things that were in the Bible.

In the future, I hope to write out more precisely what it is that I
criticise about the New Age, and I will try to correct the
impression I have been giving of criticising it as a whole, and try
to be very specific about just a few I ideas I don't accept. I will
also take trouble to spell out those that I think are the important
contributions of the New Age, and show how some ideas are just what
I needed to explain certain things.

This is my present thinking, to salvage some and dump other parts.
To sort through, finding what is good, like what is good about for
instance ACIM. (I think Alysia would help me with this).
Or for instance, the Muslim religion has strong directives for normal
good behavior, and caring about the "brothers and sisters". These
must be preserved. Persian men are a savage lot who need to bump
their heads on the carpet to a higher will. But the idea that only
Muslims go to heaven and the infidels go to hell, must crash. Jihad
must crash. I don't hesitate to take a strong stand on this.

When the crash happens, the person is lost. But it takes a while to
take in how much is still there, that is substantial, and can
continue.
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Nje
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Re: New Age fundamentalism and belief system crash
Reply #11 - May 6th, 2005 at 8:28am
 
I think the way to go might be trying to apply two different perspectives- one where you only consider what you believe has been proven beyond doubt(how you come up with anything beyond "life is more than physical" here, I don't know), and another where you work with evidence/experiences and all the assumptions you can make from them as a belief system you construct to work with, carefully.

..I thought about non-objective reality, which could be true, since it may not be impossible for a consciousness to exist, because while there's no reason for a self-sustaining one to exist, there's also no reason for it not to, so maybe true reality is pure chaos, and consciousness just sprung from all the randomness.

It seems pretty "out there", but that may just be because of a natural bias I have from perceiving my existence in a supposedly highly structured reality.  I really can't consider this without feeling a little rediculous, but I'm not going to let my ego get the best of me.

I really think the most important thing people in this forum should do is keep sharing their thoughts and views, so everyone else can atleast consider them.
It's not easy to work with a really basic overview, especially when there's so much overwhelming evidence and such a general acceptance of certain beliefs, like the "higher self", for instance.
How many of you have really proven this is a part of yourself?
(and please don't say it IS you, because if that's true, then it's not going to be too helpful to communicate with, as I define "me" as this clueless awareness experiencing and only being able to perceive physical life, and there's no way a "higher self" could even be discovered to exist if it truly is nothing more/less than myself)
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