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Was Jesus real ? (Read 42983 times)

Petrus

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Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #75 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 1:18am

>Then why in the world did he only show his
>"resurrected" self to a
>handful of disciples? That's the
>part that I've never understood.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I wasn't aware that only a few people seeing it was deliberate.

>And do you actually believe
>some guy was wandering
>around the Middle East performing
>miracles and only
>a small group of people noticed
>it enough to make a
>permanent record of it?

Yes, I think it's at least possible. There are any number of possible reasons why it wouldn't have been more widely recorded back then. For starters, it's possible that many of the people hearing about it didn't believe it was going on. For another thing, just because we don't have more records of it doesn't mean more weren't made. There have been a number of antique repositories of writing which have been destroyed at various points in history...Not only that, you've also got things like the Vatican vaults. There were a number of Gospels that weren't canonised, i.e., they weren't allowed by the early Catholics into the Bible because they didn't go along with what the early Church *wanted* people to believe. Given that, I think it's entirely possible that there could have been any number of other records of Christ's existence/life which have been lost or destroyed. Don't forget incidents like the Nazi book burnings as well...There's no guarantee to my mind that we still have copies of everything they tried to get rid of.

>Instead, he chooses a small group of one Jewish
>sect to reveal his "secrets" to and hopes they can
>convince the rest of the world? Sorry, but I don't
>buy it.

No, there were other sects. I'm assuming you've heard of the Gnostics? They're only one example...and even immediately after Christ's lifetime they were branded as heretics, and attempts were made to prevent promotion of/belief in their material. I'm also sure Don would be able to tell you of any number of other underground/offshoot groups that existed during the recognised church's early history as well. Part of the problem is that we probably don't entirely know what the early church's criteria was for acceptance of different doctrinal elements. That's something Don could possibly help us with as well.

&&eMule : Welcome to Aquarian society.

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Chen-Kuang

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The whole elephant?
Reply #76 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 6:39am

I reckon quite a number of people are like blind men
feeling different parts of the elephant. One gets hold
of the tail and claims it to be a serpent, while another
hugs the leg and claims it to be a tree while the third
feeling the belly of the animal realizes he is blind and
cannot fully comprehend what he feels.

Yet to all of them it is very real indeed for they each
have a piece of the truth that is undeniable.

- C K Yap ( Choppy )

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Dora

Ex Member

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #77 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 9:29am

Quote:

Dora, I have sensed quite a large amount of emotional pain in you since I first started posting here. Because I don't know anything about you, I cannot and therefore will not speculate as to that pain's cause...but I do genuinely hope that none of it has been caused by bad experiences with Christians.

Petrus you darn right you have NO idea about me!

Emotional pain???? I have no idea where you get that ridicilious idea Grin

and I would appreciate that you not project your lack of understanding, and your own inner trauma toward me.

Not that it is matter but FYI not now, not before, and not in the future I care -even though I educated myself about Christianity, and all other religion as well since I was 16 years old and absolutely nothing and no amount of biblical quotes will convince me about something that illogical, dogmatic, meaningless, "higher being" ANY KIND... who is outside of me , controlling me, and limiting my self-knowledge and choices.

I do not believe ANY organize religion what ever it is been called, BUT...

I don't care what other people believe either

Jesus is real for you? OF COURSE IT IS

If you believe in it...thats your belief system if it is works for you fine... it is true for you but not for me.

I believe that I have choose my experiences, just as all other individuals choose their experiences. I do not hold the ‘better way.’ I hold the different way.I'm are no more enlightened than any other individual in this planet. I merely incorporate different information.

In my understanding true spirituality is merely the acceptance of self, incorporating all of myself without judgment and recognizing that all of my choices and all of my experiences, regardless of how I creating them, are purposefully executed, I have chosen each experience purposefully and I have chosen each line of probabilities to be experiencing what I creating. I'm not creating mistakes. I not create accidents. Therefore, each experience has been purposefully executed, and all of these experiences are elements of my spirituality, and all of my manifestations are elements of my spirituality. Therefore, it is not an action. It is ME!

The real reality is the reality that each individually create. That IS real. And it is, in every moment, in every expression – if I choose to participate and to continue participating in this physical dimension – influenced by beliefs. Every moment, every action, every choice is filtered through beliefs.

I have choose to manifest in this physical dimension. It has been a choice. No entity, no force, no element of consciousness greater than my self has thrust me into this physical reality. I have chosen

Freedom is simply choice and the knowing of it. In actuality, freedom is merely the knowing of the expression of choice in any and every situation
And this freedom give me more self-awareness, more self-trust and more harmony withou any"aid" or god figure from outside that you may have in this life time period.

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blink

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Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #78 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 2:25pm

Quote:
...people are like blind men feeling different parts of the elephant. One gets hold of the tail and claims it to be a serpent, while another hugs the leg and claims it to be a tree while the third feeling the belly of the animal realizes he is blind and cannot fully comprehend what he feels.

Yet to all of them it is very real indeed for they each
have a piece of the truth that is undeniable.

Chen-Quang,

I've always loved that story about the blind men and the elephant. Thanks for the reminder.

love, blink

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blink

Ex Member

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #79 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 2:28pm

Re: blind men
Here's the whole story for anyone interested:

John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend,

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk
Cried, "Ho! what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me `tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up he spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope.
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

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blink Ex Member	Re: Was Jesus real ? Reply #80 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 2:38pm Sorry, Chen-Kwang. Didn't mean to spell your name wrong! love, blink
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Berserk

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Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #81 - May 23^rd, 2005 at 7:39pm

Some great questions have recently been posed on this thread that I'd like to address. I don't want anyone to think that I've abandoned this site just yet. This week I need to travel a long way to help a friend cope with a death in the family. I will also be playing a large role in performing the funeral in another minister's church; and that involves some sticky politicking. I just want to do what this gal has asked me to do and ensure that her late mother is properly celebrated with the assurance that she is in a much better place now. I'll post again here next week.

Don

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wayne

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Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #82 - May 24^th, 2005 at 7:01pm

Hi All,
Here goes my two cents........ I think Jesus was real; a real man who taught a mystical path to enlightenment. Unfortunately, most people of his time, and ever since, have turned the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus; yet another 'vicarious atonement via sacrifice of a god-man' by those too lazy and ignorant to think and act for themselves. The cool thing is, it still makes sense allegorically, if you have 'ears to hear'.

wayne

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Author_JD_Howes

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Re: EMOTIONAL reason for rejecting Christianity...
Reply #83 - May 26^th, 2005 at 4:09pm

Brendan,

Glad to see you being as colorful as usual... as couple things...

1) Emotions are part of being human, they are okay if used in balance with reason... and vice-versa. I understand where you are coming from.

2) Sex is a wonderful creation from God. It has many wonderful benefits; healing wonders and providing a sense of initimacy, completeness and just plain fun... but it also has a dark side too.

Because you live within time, anything get boring, familiar and lose it's edge. So, we move on to something (or someone) else. Being a Biology student, you know our bodies can only handle so many foreign bacteria, germs... and so forth before our immune system collapses. Multiple sex partners may sound fun... but that way lies danger.

I can attest that if you work at your sex life within the confines of marriage, you can beat anything swinging couples "think" they have over married couples. Within marriage you create your own heaven (with thoughtfulness) and hell (with selfishness)... in that cool union God created.

3) Heaven is so much more than eternal church... that's like saying the devil wears little red tights and carries a pitchfork. God's world is "Love" incarnated...or living love. You say you'll miss sex, right? People won't miss sex as much "itself" as for all the fun, excitement, love, security and stimulation sex provides. God's not dumb... he made us... he understands our needs for this old body. But upon death, we receive a "NEW" body that never dies, has heightened senses and can do more than these broken down physical bodies will ever do. You will be a young man... forever.

4) I'm 41 Brendan... I'm already were you fear to be...age wise. And you know what? It's not bad... take heart my friend. Do you ever watch the "Red Green" show on PBS? It's hilarious... Red Green's famous quote for getting old is... - "we're all in this together."

5) In Jim Carrey's movie "Bruce Almighty" many things you expressed here are mentioned in the movie. Have you seen it? Personally, I liked the way they handled the anger, frustration and Bruce's hatred towards God... and God's understanding response.

I grew up being taught the hateful, spiteful, mean God you believe in Brendan. I can relate to what you are say... every bit of it.

But I also discovered religion LIED about God's nature being cruel. I had to get kicked out of several churches to learn just how merciful, caring and kind God is... IT'S RELIGIOUS HUMANS WHO ARE CRUEL... not God. Put aside your anger and give him a chance to stand on his own two feet before you... don't judge him based on dumb Christians and Non-Christians who don't know which end is up half the time.

THEN WRESTLE WITH GOD FOR THE ANSWERS YOU SEEK... He likes to wrestle with his kids. He's a big boy... there's nothing you can say that will hurt him. And in spite of all your anger, Brendan, you possess more faith in God than most people I know. How can I tell? Easy, you're disappointed & angry with God. We only get disappointed and angry about things we care about. And the things we care about we invest in emotionally because we... believe in them.

Good Luck Searching...

Author JD Howes
www.jdhowes.com

Quote:

Don, as a human being, I'll cop to the fact that
I am more of a creature of emotion than of
logic.
But emotions are real things too, and are what
make life worthwhile.
Now... I don't believe that ANYTHING you, or anyone
else could say, would make me convert on grounds
of cold logic.
But suppose I DID read something that convinced
me Christianity is real?
The rest of my life would be a morass of depression
and I'd probably end up a Prozac android.
Why?
Because I'm over 30, man, and I can see 40 coming in the not-too-distant future. and then OLD AGE. My GOOD TIMES ARE JUST ABOUT OVER, in THIS life. Even now, I've got some gray at the temples, and am beginning to develop a trick knee. I had the misfortune of being born a couple hundred years before the aging process gets conquered by science. (Kind of disgusts me, that in view of humanity's 2-million year history on this planet, I missed it by a single "pubic hair"! I'm a simple man, with simple tastes... I like to get a bit pied sometimes, and I like young, beautiful women. I'm "aging out" of being able to have these pleasures..!)
If Christianity is true... then NO REINCARNATION, I "go somewhere and stay put."
I want to have a second (or third, or 5-thousandth!) go at YOUNG MANHOOD! The one I had was a disappointment, for a number of reasons.
Christianity? Then (AT BEST), all I have to look forward to is the AGING PROCESS, followed by GOOGOLPLEXES OF YEARS as a CELIBATE, GESTALT ENTITY... so CHANGED from what I CURRENTLY AM, there would be NO CONTINUITY of "me"... I'd be stuck FOREVER as an ANT in an... ANTPILE!!!
Yuck. Yuck! YUCCCCCK!!!
I'd rather mechanistic materialism be true than Christianity. Let Atheism be true instead; let me just die and rot. At least I won't be aware it's happening.
The ideas on this forum (especially reincarnation) are what led me to believe that maybe spirituality ain't all bad...
J.D. Howes called Christian "Heaven" "eternity's ultimate vacation spot" - hey, what's a trip to the Bahamas worth, if all you'd do there is hang out in a CHURCH? Give me the beach and some babes, and no "SEX-FREE ZONES" (or beer-free zones, or ANYTHING-FREE zones, PLEASE!!!)
That's what Christian Heaven is... a CHURCH MEETING/MONASTERY. There is nothing there to appeal to a normal human being (*especially a male.*) It's sole selling point is that you're not in "Hell" (A COWARD'S belief if there ever was one... tell me, is motivation through FEAR OF VIOLENCE "God's" way???
Then... F**K GOD (f**k "Yahweh", the BRUTAL GOD OF WAR!!!) That's ALL I have to say. He's no
better than some scumbag gangbanger or mob goon, in my estimation!!! I wouldn't worship "Blue Fly the Killer Pimp", so why shoud I worship a "Killer God"?
The Christian god is a... BULLY.
I believe with all my heart, that the only GOOD bully is a DEAD bully...
So I prefer to believe, "God is Dead" as far as Christianity is concerned.
Now, all this was just an INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE, Don. I've been studying religion all my life, and so far I've found NOTHING to make me suspect Christianity is true, logically speaking. And I'll indulge you by reading as much of your suggested literature as I can, although I won't make you any guarantees, as Christian writers tend to BORE me into the middle of next Wednesday, what with their endless "interpretations"(?) of foggy, ancient scriptures. But I would be willing to bet the potency of my peter that I WON'T be convinced by any of your stuff, logically speaking.
And then there's the EMOTIONAL resistance I have to it, which I have elaborated above...
Sorry if the above was a bit... shall we say, RAW, Don, but I believe in being HONEST to a fault, when speaking of spirituality. The above is what I TRULY FEEL. So don't tell me "Satan" inspired me to write this post. (He's the "Father of Lies", remember???)

Thanks for Reading,

B-man

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Author_JD_Howes

Ex Member

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #84 - May 26^th, 2005 at 4:22pm

HERE... HERE... AGREED!

Growing up there was an old slogan to encourage kids to read... the program was called "Reading is Fundamental."

And we all know how much this site just loves "Fundamentalists" - right?

Brendan can demand all he wants... I enjoy reading so-called "evidence" anti-Christian sites claim to have. I like getting into the heads of so-called "intellectualists" who wouldn't understand a miracle if it bit them on the nose. The proof I don't fear such sites is the fact I keep showing up here! Cheesy

And most of these so-called "Facts" comprise of ignorant research, a poor understanding of history and spite filled commentary. I kind of find it funny because these guys are truly frustrated over the LACK of "REAL" evidence to destroy Christianity or the Bible. So, all that's left is posturing, bluster, hate and frustration... but these are not facts... just more hot air.

Writing On...

Author JD Howes
www.jdhowes.com

Quote:

Brendan,

Since you have not narrowed down your question to me about the Second Coming, I will guess what you meant and soon reply. I have challenged you to read many books and posts about the truth of Christianity and the reality of modern miracles and you have apparently declined or at least refused to engage me. I'm OK with that since I'm not entitled to impose obligations on any posters. What I do object to is your incessant demands that JD adopt your reading regimen, something you yourself refuse to do for me. That is sheer hypocrisy.

Berserk

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Brendan

Ex Member

UHHHH, J.D. mein freund...
Reply #85 - May 26^th, 2005 at 8:06pm

Presumably germs, V.D., yada yada DON'T EXIST
in the "next world" (assuming there IS a "next
world.")
So multiple honeys + B-man = NO PROBLEM, right?
Ditto for anything I'd want to eat, drink or smoke,
chew, snort or inject... righto? DISEASE would be IMPOSSIBLE, right?
So why is it necessary for the afterlife to resemble
a 4th-century A.D. hermitage, or Trappist monastery? Why
should earthly "moral restrictions" prevail in heaven? What good is "purity/virginity" if there
is no danger of unwanted pregnancy or V.D.?
What's up with churchy "moral proscriptions" chasing after us into the afterlife???
C'mon, you can answer this...
ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!
J.D., Old Peanut...
You said I'd get to be a YOUNG MAN FOREVER in your heaven..?
With NO SEX??? What good is youth then? I might
as well be an UGLY, doddering old geezer in your Heaven, hobbling around on a cane, drooling down my shirt-front and mumbling to myself... *BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAWHAWHAW!!!!!!!!!!!*
YOUTH ONLY HAS MEANING IN THIS EARTHLY LIFE, MR. HOWES!!! C'MON, YOU'RE NOT COMPLETELY CLUELESS... YOU'RE NOT, ARE YOU???
Truly, you adhere to an insane interpretation of a questionable (at best) religion, Mr. Howes. At least you're not alone... FAR FROM IT. And THAT'S what worries me.
I wouldn't mind Christianity (or Christians) one little bit, if it weren't for the fact that your Bush/Reaganoid interpretation of Christianity is DESTROYING this nation... not because of you, Mr. Howes, I'm not accusing you... I'm accusing the ignorant hillbilly masses who think like you. I weep for the future of AMERICA, the greatest nation that ever was OR EVER WILL BE!!!
Chew on that for a while.
Good day, Mr. Howes...

B-man

P.S. I hereby give up on trying to encouraging you
to read those essays. Just like the stodgy old cardinal who refused to look through Galileo's telescope, you refuse to read something which you KNOW IN YOU HEART might shake your "rock-solid faith." Doesn't surprise me one bit. It would have literally SHOCKED me if you had deigned to read them... 'nuff said. I wasn't kidding myself when I suggested them. Unlike somebody ELSE I've gotten to know recently...

« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2005 at 9:12pm by N/A »

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roger prettyman

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Posts: 195
Bedford, U.K.
Gender: male

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #86 - May 27^th, 2005 at 1:04am

Hi, JD,

Nice to see you back. Thought you had abandoned us all!

JD, in your quote #84 above you say, " Sex is a wonderful creation from God. It has many wonderful benefits; healing wonders and providing a sense of initimacy, completeness and just plain fun... but it also has a dark side too."

Now, since obviously you are a deeply religious man I am most surprised you made no mention of the primary reason God gave us sex - for the procreation of children.
This comes at the forefront of our church marriage service (Christian) in the U.K. when it is stated that marriage is for the procreation of children. I have yet to hear a vicar say marriage (sex) is for fun, intimacy, etc., during a wedding. I imagine, however, it would raise a few smiles and laughs if they did.

As a young lad many years ago, I sang in a choir at numerous weddings and funerals too. Oddly, I preferred singing at funerals - we got paid more!

best wishes, roger

The past is history, the future is a mystery.&&Today is a gift, that`s why it`s called the present.&&Let yourself enjoy today. It will never come again.&&&&&&Butterfly.

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shawn_rowland2003 Ex Member	Re: Was Jesus real ? Reply #87 - Jun 22^nd, 2005 at 4:14pm Jesus Christ is God i beleive> If you read the old testiment he was sctually there in the beggining when the world was created.I think all of these other religions are false and here to trick people.He is no myth and he is real> And he will return just as he said he would.
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x_m_m_x_

Ex Member

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #88 - Jun 25^th, 2005 at 10:20am

I'm new here,and I have to say that I am a bit surprised that the question Was Jesus Real was asked. Of course He was real. If you read an encyclopedia,World Book Britannica, it will mention about a man named Jesus Christ who lived and died and rose again. That is not just a fact of the bible, that is a historical fact. The devil {Satan} is very real, and he has done everything he could to try to get people to disbelieve the resurrection of the Son of God Jesus Christ. I highly doubt that his disciples would be willing to endure beatings, being jailed, getting beheaded, getting roasted in an oven etc. if the resurrection was a hoax, and christianity would not have lasted this long { 2000 years} on a hoax.

Besides, there are far too many biblical prophecies, that have been fulfilled, way too many to be a coincidence for the bible to be a work of fiction, and that is another reason why the resurrection of Jesus Christ did indeed happen. Jewish historian Josephas wasn't a follow of Jesus Christ,yet he believed in the resurrection and wrote books on it. Unless someone wants to doubt that the apostles ever really existed {they did} you have to ask yourself, what happened to those men who were willing to give up everything and suffer for the cause of Christ if Christ never really existed?

How about Saul of Tarsus who was out to destroy christianity and was on the road to Damascus to kill more christians when all of a sudden a light shined all about him from heaven and he heared the voice of the Lord say, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Saul was converted that very instant when he found out it was the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ who Saul had hated. The greatest conversion in history took place that day to a real historical figure who the Lord used to write almost half of the New Testament. Saul became known as the Apostle Paul. Yes Jesus rose from the dead or there would have been no Apostle Paul and no New Testament.

Anybody who does not believe that Jesus ever existed, I would ask you, when you write out a check and date it or when you sign an important piece of paper and then date it, why wouldn't you just put the day of the week and day of the month and forget the year? For example, it has been 2005 years ago that Jesus died and rose again, and then 2006 and then 2007 and so on until He returns, but since you don't believe that the year represents the year of our Lord, remember that the next time you date a check or important paper.

Jesus was without a shadow of a doubt real and He indeed died and rose from the dead and He is indeed coming back one day, and He has done a lot for me and my family, and He also told us what happens when a person dies, and the afterlife is either heaven or hell, because Jesus the Son of the only true and living God who died and rose again said so.

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Rob_Roy

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Posts: 539
New Hampshire, USA
Gender: male

Re: Was Jesus real ?
Reply #89 - Jun 25^th, 2005 at 11:53am

I think scholars, including those who are religious, have made a distinction between the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith. One can aknowledge the historical existence of Jesus without accepting him as God or anything other than a human being, if that is what one chooses.

I think there is little historical doubt, from what I've read (and I've read quite a bit), that there was in fact a historical Jesus.

Whether he was/is the Christ of faith or something else is another question.

Christians, understandably, find it difficult, even immoral, to make this distinction because to them he is both. But it becomes very diffucult to discuss the meaning of his existence if parties involved in a discussion cannot even agree if the person even existed.

I think it would help if Christians would allow that this distinction is necessary for non-Christians and appreciate that as a starting point for discussion.

I think it would also help if non-Christians would aknowledge that accepting the historical existence of Jesus does not mean agreeing with Christians.

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