Hi Roger,

Firstly, if you have a loved one that is suffering from Alzheimer`s Disease or senile dementia, I am very sorry. It must be so difficult to watch a loved one deteriorate mentally. My father-in-law has a form of dementia where he has absolutely no short-term memory; but has retained his long term memory. While it is difficult trying to carry on a converstation with him, it's nothing compared tot he pain that others must experience when their loved one doesn't even recognize them.

Swedenborg wrote that on the other side, we are freed from any kind of physical defect - whether that's the physical body or the brain. The mind is independent of the brain.

From my understanding of Swedenborg's writings,  when we are born, we have two bodies - the physical one which encases the spiritual body. The spiritual body looks very similar to our physical body - free from defects. When our life in this world ceases, we merely "discard" our physical body and are immediately in the Spiritual World.

Sometimes, transitions are gradual. If the person didn't know about the other side, the angels help with a gentle and gradual transition. According to Swedenborg, they take every care to replicate our earth-home so that when we "come to" we are not overwhelmed. Swedenborg wrote that it was a gradual 3 day (even though acknowledging that time and space do not exist in the spiritual world the way it does in our world) awakening.

Dave Sonmor wrote the following quotation in his article: "The Adoramus: Our Faith in the Glorified Lord":
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"There is no great change in us when we die and enter into the spiritual world. We are basically the same character and personality which we develop and become while we are here in this world.

Some people confuse this teaching with the idea that we are only what we are at the moment of death, but that is not so. You might say we are a composite of all we have been during our lifetime some of it good and some of it bad, some of it loving and some of it hateful. But somewhere in our complex life we always have a prevailing love, a dominant will, that is present, which underlies all that we think and do."

http://www.egogahan.com/Dave/Adoramus.htm

And Brian Kingslake wrote this in his book, "Inner Light : Swedenborg Explores the Spiritual Dimension":
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"The second state [of death - after the initial crossing over and could be likened to a life review] can produce some surprises. [There may be] many who, while on earth, appeared to be good and wise and were respected by everybody are now seen to have been motivated by self-love or love of the world. All their respectability now falls away, and they plunge into unrestrained selfishness or acquisitiveness. Another person may have been a drunk or wastrel on earth, scorned by "good" people; or perhaps even a criminal - who knows? Yet in their heart they may have longed for better things; in which case, their good ruling love will now take over, and their disreputable exterior will fall away, leaving them sweet and angelic, as they always wanted to be."

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With Peace and Blessings to All,
JudyE

Alysia,

I liked much of your last post, but of course believe that Jesus was absolutely unique.  I want to comment on your image of a grinning Jesus.
One of my favorite Jesus movies is the old Spanish movie directed by Bunuel called "The Milky Way."  In one scene two overly grim pilgrims are having a dull converation about Jesus in a cafe.  The waiter can't take it anymore and barges in with the question, "Do you think Jesus ever laughed?"  Then the scene switches to a man running though a farmer's field.  The man is laughing his head off.  He turns out to be Jesus on his way to invite His to disciples the wedding feast at Cana, where He has a rollicking good time before turning the water into wine.

One of my favorite lecture topics is Jesus' personality as opposed to His character, teaching, and example.  If you retrovert the Gospels' Greek back into the original Aramaic, you uncover a large group of witty puns that are lost in translation.  Often people take Jesus literally in spots where He was going for laughs.  One of His favorite teaching ploys was His use of Semitic hyperbole to grab His audience's attention and make His points more memorable.  Preachers often err in taken His witty exaggerations as deadly literal teaching. 

Don

Yes, Yeshua has a wonderful sense of humor as do all the higher beings.

Love, Light and Laughter,
Mairlyn

Why do have such a problem talking to people who bring the opposing view? Wow... talk about closed minded thinking. Come on... Don always tries to provide a firm intellectual, logical and factual basis for his beliefs. OR IS THAT THE PROBLEM?

And if he stands up for himself, you guys accuse him of all sorts of nastiness. Christians are NOT doormats, punching bags or targets... we're human beings like you!

Just what is that poor guy supposed to do... stand there and allow himself to be viciously attacked and not defend his faith? You wouldn't respect him if he did that... heck, you don't respect him for standing up for his faith... that's more than you folks do. At least he KNOWS what he believes and doesn't need to copy & paste reams of someone else's copyrighted materials on this board... which I believe is a violation of board usage... unless you are the author.

Grow up... YOU GUYS ARE ALL TALK... ALL BLUSTER... and have nothing of real value to share spiritually until you can learn to share it with respect and with maturity at this physical level.

JD Howes

Quote:

Hi, All,

Judy, thank you for your reply. I don`t know anyone with Alzheimer`s or senile dementia, fortunately, but just wished to pose my query. I found your piece by Dave Sonmor most interesting and can resonate with that.
Also, I `ve not read any Swedenborg books yet. Are his books like Bruce`s?

J.D. I find ALL the postings on this board most interesting, yours included. I have my own particular beliefs, am very spiritual, but wouldn`t dream of getting into heated discussion with someone who, for example, knows the bible inside out, whereas I don`t. Not a level playing field by my book! No doubt we all have our specialist fields in which we could excel in a "discussion".
I have my own views on the accuracy of the  bible, but, in saying that, would also add that I believe Jesus was real.

Dan, absolutely loved your short post! Really made me laugh as I pictured the scene in my mind.

Best wishes to all,
roger

Brendan,

Since you have not narrowed down your  question to me about the Second Coming, I will guess what you meant and soon reply.  I have challenged you to read many books and posts about the truth of Christianity and the reality of modern miracles and you have apparently declined or at least refused to engage me.  I'm OK with that since I'm not entitled to impose obligations on any posters.  What I do object to is your incessant demands that JD adopt your reading regimen, something you yourself refuse to do for me.  That is sheer hypocrisy. 

Berserk

Brendan,

The issues arising from your question to me are far too complex for me to deal with adequately here.  But I will make just 3 points to give you a taste of my reaction to attempts to establish a timetable for Christ's Second Coming.

(1) Q is the earliest collection of Jesus' sayings.  Q (now lost) was apparently composed by Matthew and is used by the Gospels of Matthew and Luke only.  Luke generally preserves the more original wording of Q.  Consider these two versions of the same Q tradition:

"Truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes (Matthew 10:23)."

Some have imagined that Jesus is promising to come again before the completion of the mission to Israel.  This interpretation can be ruled out on the basis of the original Q wording preserved in Luke10:1:

"After this the Lord appointed 70 others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to EVERY TOWN AND PLACE WHERE HE HIMSELF WAS ABOUT TO COME."

In Q Jesus simply sends out an advance party to make arrangements for his future "coming" on a teaching mission.   How could Jesus later commission His disciples to "make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:16-20)" if they aren't even able to reach all the towns of Israel before the Second Coming?  Jesus initially insists that His disciples confine their mission to Israel (10:5-6).  But Jewish hostility apparently prompts Jesus to change His mind and give up on the Jews.  So the Gentiles replace the Jews as the targets of the disciples' mission (21:43).

(2) As already noted, Mark was Peter's interpreter at Rome and Mark's Gospel presents Peter's memoirs.   The apostle Matthew composed the Gospel's major sayings of Jesus source, but not the final Gospel.  Matthew copies Mark and changes it in such a way as to create the misunderstanding that Jesus promises to come again within the lifetime of His followers.  Capitals are used to highlight Matthew's changes of his Marcan source:

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death BEFORE THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM (Matthew 16:28)."

"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME WITH POWER (Mark 9:1).

Matthew changes Jesus' promise about the manifestation of the kingdom "with power" into a prediction of the coming of the Son of Man (Jesus).
Mark implies that Jesus' promise was fulfilled "six days later" when Moses and Elijah return from the dead and converse with a transfigured Jesus on a mountain in the presence of disciples (9:2-9).  Scholars are divided as to what Matthew meant by this new coming of the Son of Man.  Conjectures range from the Transfiguration and Jesus' resurrection to the Second Coming.   If there is an error here, it is not Jesus' mistake.   

(3) Consider these two anti-apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, sayings that discourage any attempt to identify a timetable for the Second Coming:

(a) "Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he replied, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, `Look, here it is!' or `There it is!'  For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among (or "inside") you (Lk 17:20-21).'"

It is the Pharisees, not Jesus, who have an apocalyptic view of the coming of God's kingdom. Jesus teaches that the kingdom is a spiritual realm which we enter at death (Luke 23:40-43), but from which we can already channel divine power into our lives in the present (Matthew 12:28). 

Notice the anti-apocalyptic response Jesus gives to His disciples' question at His ascension:

"They asked him, `Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?'  He said to them, `It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by His own authority (Acts 1:6-7)."

How then do I explain the apparent contradiction between this anti-apocalyptic perspective and texts like Mark 13 and Matthew 24?  Jesus predicts signs leading up the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 AD.  Matthew and Mark attach references to Christ's Second Coming to this discussion and this creates the false impression that Jesus contradicted His insistence elsewhere that it was fruitless to seek the eschatological timetable for His Second Coming. 

Brendan, the issue is far more complicated than my responses here.  But at least you get some idea of why I'm not enthusiastic about the writings of people like Tim LaHaye.

Don

A SUGGESTED READING REGIMEN:

Brendan,

I'm grateful that you've offered to read my posts from Bruce's site that contain some of my favorite and most compelling paranormal experiences.  These experiences have had a more potent impact on my faith than the historical arguments and expositions I have offered in other posts.   

I'd love to have you (or anyone) read the paranormal experiences posted in my 3 threads listed below.  I supply the current page numbers of each thread, but these threads move down; so you may have to search for them.  Then I give the reply numbers (e.g. R1), together with the page within the thread itself.  I suggest that you read the specified posts in the order given so as to better follow the development of the discussion.

1. "Lilac Cologne" [p. 15]:
R4 (p. 1): Simultaneous coordinated NDEs experienced in the family of my Dad's friend
R5 (p. 1): Roger's questions here established my agenda for threads #2-4 below.

2. "OBE and Phasing Evidence for an Afterlife" [p. 8]
R6 (p. 1): "What are the most evidential OBEs dying NDes?

3. "God and Destiny: Roger's Questions" [p. 7]
R3 (p. 1): E, Stanley Jones's premonition that His plane woud crash
R8 (p. 1): The miraculous healing recently experienced by my Dad's pastor
R9 (p. 1): 3 Miracles at Allens Hill UMC Church:
(My direct involvement in these increased their impact on my faith.  Leonard's encounter with his dead son is  the most spectacular miracle I've ever encountered.)
R14 (p. 1): Dates with Destiny:
(Though these 2 experiences may not be as evidentially potent as the above 3, they had a greater impact on my faith than any miracles I've ever experienced.)
R16 (p. 2): Problematic healings
R21-22 (p. 2): Divine providence associated with the Oklahoma City bombing
R23 (p. 2): The best modern example of synchronicity and divine providence known to me
R27 (p. 2): Angelic Intervention: My own experience and that of my Dad's acquaintance

4. "Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger [p. 3 (bottom) or by now p. 4]
R5 (p. 1): Conversion of 2 mediums to Christianity
R16 (p. 2): Exorcisms performed by my family
R45 (p. 4): Freud and Jung encounter the demonic or negative human discarnates
R56 (p. 4): The deceptive revelations of famous mediums

THREE HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BOOKS:
(1) Malachi Martin, "Hostage to the Devil"
Psychiatrist Scott Peck vouches for the exorcisms Martin reports.  Peck's own 2 books on possession are more scientifically sophisticated, but for sheer credibility and raw impact, nothing compare to Martin's chilling accounts.  You will probably believe in the power of Christ after reading this book.

(2) Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death"
What makes this book so compelling for me is the role of angels after Storm's NDE in saving him from certain death and in guiding his spiritual journey.  In one case, Thomas Merton returns from the dead, gives Storm a book of his poetry, and is seen by Storm's pastor as well as by Storm.

(3) David Fontana, "Is There an Afterlife?  A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence"
A book by a parapsychologist, not by a Christian, but IMHO the most convincing book of its kind ever written.

Berserk

P.S. Brendan, I will soon reply to your most recent 2 questions about Q and Jesus' limitations.