Earlier in my life I was completely into the karma thing.  And all it did was....well it just depressed me and made me not want to go on in life.  What's the point...everytime I made a mistake I was going to have to pay for it later?  Forget it then, I don't want to pay twice and feel guilt for the mistake I made and then have to go through the actual experience again.

So then I thought...maybe we only experience what we did to someone else if our soul decides it would be beneficial to our growth or just because we want to experience it...and not an actual set in stone law we all have to follow through on.

Or maybe we only going through harsh experiences because we have been taught that is how life is, and our very thoughts attract it into our lives.  Where if we only expected and focused on good things, then we would only attract that into our life (that would take a lot of unlearning and a lot of faith on our part to accomplish.)  I think this goes along the lines of -stop playing the victim.  (The exception to this in my mind is when a loved one dies...I don't believe our thoughts attract this into our life...therefore I'm not completely sold on this philosophy or maybe just don't understand it completely.)

Then I got a message from my great grandma (died when I Was 11) in one of the exercises that you do in a Bruce Moen workshop, and I've been thinking on it ever since.  She just said, "Have all the fun you can in this life, and I will see you in the next." (Thanks Joe for passing this important message on to me from my great grandma).

Don't ask me why this 'simple' message had the effect on me that it did.  But it had never occured to me to 'have fun' while here.  What did she mean have fun?  But life is suppose to be hard work, and sacrifice, and ....have fun?  Because it came from my great grandma who I admired and loved, I took it to heart.

While trying to apply it in life I started seeing situations in a different light and just feeling different about how things really are.  And just as you mentioned  - even wondered...do we just come here to experience different things?  Is it like a big playground?  Maybe there isn't good or bad or right or wrong...just experiences.  

Or here's another thought, one of my favorite quotes (I'm doing this from memory so excuse me if I blunder it) from the 3rd Matrix movie.  The oracle said, The decisions have already been made....the reason you come here is to find out why you made the decisions you did.  Well that's a different way of looking at it.

Or maybe for each life there is an infinite number (or somewhere in that neighborhood) of "yous" all living out every possible choice or decision you could ever make and is experiencing every possiblity?  That way we play the good guy, bad guy, stupid guy, ignorant guy, brilliant guy, all within the 'you' you are now.  Then mix that with the thousands of different lives 'you' have had at different time periods..and wow...that would certainly be something to write home about.  I know personally my mind has a hard time wrapping around that concept...but it doesn't mean that it isn't possible.  We don't want to limit our possiblities with only things our human minds can comprehend.  

What do these all have to do with each other?  Nothing.  I haven't come to any conclusion on any of this, and this is where my thoughts are scattered at the moment (welcome to my world...muwahahahah).  I look forward to reading what others have to say on this, and hope to have some new thoughts to ponder on this topic.  

Jenn

Axel - I am more of fan of referring to life as "experiencing" rather than "learning".

experience seems to fit better with the idea of free will and that destiny is not set in stone. 

curiosity of course is the driver for experience and explains why you would rather experience the unexperienced (for example a life as a murderer or vagabond) rather than just spend life after life as Justin Timbalake or Cameron Diaz...

I really like the following interpretation or view as to the meaning of life:

Quote:


I think we come here for the experience and in particular the desire to know more of ourselves in each of these various experiences.

10 points if you can guess who the quote's from? 

Scott

I think you should not overlook the Karma thing as this is a very old old doctrine of the very earliest and as our human thoughts all revolve around good and bad then why not have a judgement on your acceptance from this life into your next state of awareness, the judgement will determine your human life mostly good or bad and weigh them up! Most people i come accross in life will have no problems with their karma as they mostly live honest lives! Why worry about karma if your life has mostly been good! You must live over 50% of your life bad to be in a hell state!(or so i believe)
Just my thought on how belief of karma can make you a slightly better person knowing it has a detremental effect on your next state of awareness! Just making an effort to be good and honest in life is more than enough on judgemental day, Small wrong's we all do in life can not be more than the love for familly and others on a percentage scale throughout our exhistance! I think the Karma thing is to protect ourselfs from doing seriouslly bad thinks! That does detter me from doing them!
I hope i havent offended anyone if my interpretation of karma is wrong by their knowledge! but it helps me!
Shroom

Now I do recall two cases that have a karma-like quality.

A German fighter pilot who was shot down in England during World
War 2 was reborn as an Englishman. This is well documented.

Admiral Yamahoto, who planned the Pearl Harbor attack (not sure I
have his name right) was reborn as an American. He traveled to
Japan, recognized the place, and last I heard lives there.
(I don't have the documentation of this handy.)

Being reborn as the children of your enemies has a nice touch to
it.

A lot of interesting ideas being shared in this thread.  I will add my own two cents.

I think life on earth is more about learning than experiencing, but it is both.  I think for many people, coming to earth might be mostly about learning how to find God, truth, goodness, and love in a place where these things tend to be obscured and overshadowed by falsehoods and evil.  It's about learning how to recognize what is important, and about building willpower to become a source of light rather than just a receiver of light.  Learning to choose between options, to choose to serve others rather than self, to choose the difficult path of faith and hope rather than cynicism and negativity.  Learning to build heaven within, when the world around you can seem like hell.  Building spiritual muscle, with which to create and do wonderful things in the afterlife that we can only dream about here.

The real fun begins after we die.  That's when we get to be in heaven.  Earth is only preparation for the bliss that awaits us.  It's a character-building experience.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Freebird

Quote:



Hi Dave.I disagree with your statement.I don't think that we manifest here to learn,because,if we are PERFECT,EXTREMELY VAST and POWERFUL higher selves or beings,then i don't see what we could learn.For example,you don't learn how to have your breakfast,because once you have done it once,you know how to do it the second time.You don't learn how to watch the TV,because you just need to do it once and then you remember how to do it.And as you know,dear Dave,the actions in our lives are very repetitive.
That is why i think that we manifest to experience different emotions and actions,like a game,when you take your playstation and press "START",then you play,you have fun until you get bored.And once you get bored,you finnish your game (like when we disengage).
  All these beliefs about "learning" come from all these corrupted religions,whose aim has always been to frighten,brainwash and control people. In my view,freedom is valid even in the afterlife.

well said Tim, worth more than 2 cents, my pov. nothing teachs me like experience. for instance experiencing giving birth. nothing quite like it. i doubt I'd have learned anything about how a heart can become so full with love that it threatens to spill water from the eyes from the grief of loving too much. I wouldn't trade this life for anything better, not even the bliss of heaven which does not exist for me in traditional conjecture. Tim is right. we can amaze ourselves for the gain of experience.

Dave, I did regress myself much later. but I don't put it in your professional terms. I later saw this life as a part of me, as a part of an experience I understood intimately associated with my pattern of being. I saw many lives as energy fields which overlap, as when we lay the body down, we become and are an energy field, or ball of light if you wish. words are hard to communicate with. I surely am knowing that.

I really enjoy reading other peoples points of view. But here is my 2 cents, learning and experiencing is the same thing, and can be interchanged, and mixed up in different portions, in order to understand the function or purpose of one thing.  Here is an example where you can experience or learn, or do both at the same time.  It's a web site I found, but at this moment I can't think of any other better examples, enjoy 

http://www.foulbeast.com/zoomquilt/zoom.htm

Quote:


The point that i am making,dear Dave,is that i don't see what we could learn,given that according to all,we are higher selves or essences(or call it differently).If we are already perfect,if we are already vast and limitless,then we probably already know everything and have nothing to learn.The thing that annoys me the most with this "lessons" is that it would mean that we are not free...i mean each day...and i don't believe one second that we are bounded by criterias,limits and lessons...

I remember back in the 80's when I talked to my invisible, faceless God and said I was checking out of here. it was pointless. I was to my perception a useless human being. Not even could my beautiful twin girls capture my interest as I perceived I had even failed as a mother. I sometimes used to strike up deals with God being a bit cheeky. I was in a panic also as I had a pain that wouldn't go away on my lung and I don't visit doctors period. I told God I was ready to go unless something came along real quick to change my mind. it did. I stumbled into the church of religious science and found ACIM. I studied that thing top to bottom for a year solid, 3 to 4 hours a day non-stop. by the time I was done I was a new person, I was healed of the lung problem and got myself a social life. the spirit that came and swept over my being pummeled my body from head to foot with vibrations like waves. I was amazed that I was having a physical as well as mental, emotional and spiritual experience from reading a book. I had read many books and never had anything happen like this. The love that I felt then has only grown in intensity. the book needs no defense from me. it saved my life and my sanity by simple affirmations, such as "I can see this differently." or "I trust my brothers who are one with me." there's 365 affirmations and I tested every single one and tried it on for size and it fit. it may not fit every single person but if you consider we talk about PUL here, this book is about all of us being that PUL behind the ego's ravings. if love is all u want to see, love is all that you will see. if you focus on disension you can have all of that show up too. it's your choice. sure it's a belief system and what isn't?
it was my answer and I'm grateful I was guided to it. we are not alone in our struggles here, there is a guiding hand and there are no mistakes when you get the overview. love, alysia

Oh thank you Alysia, that was fascinating! Sometimes my posts that
I feel uncertain about are the ones that get the best results! when
serving as an irritant.

Why people need their belief systems, and what these do for them is
a very big part of all this, that I need to learn more about.

I have grown up surrounded by belief systems that I did not
believe, and this tended to make me downgrade their importance. But
I can see how a mindset that really positions people for life could
hugely change things. I will go on seeing what I can construct.
Right now I am still in the sorting process, which includes some
skepticism. The skepticism has to be worked through, to find what
is good.

You have gone ahead and got great good out of this, while not being
obstructed by puzzling things you might encounter in the material.
I tend to dismiss the whole thing, when I don't believe some of it.
But I realize that I acquired a substantial set of values while
living in a milieu the basis of which I did not believe.

I think the difference between the ELS addicts like me, and those
who had a doubtful beginning in life is an interesting thing to
look at. When I find people who despair in life, I wonder what the
difference is from those of us who say "bring it on". Recent
studies reported in Time magazine, the issue about happiness, which
I will summarize when I get time, focus attention on the left
frontal lobe of the brain.

The scientist asks what is, but the witch doctor asks, what do my
people need to believe in? Like believing in themselves. You have
made me more conscious of that need.

Much love,
Boris

Alysia, Take heart because remember, “Trust is the first Issue”. If I had not “accidentally” come across ACIM, and if I did not consciously decide to explore it (in spite of my religious hang-ups), I would not of had the opportunity to glean out its valuable essence, which in turn enabled me to understand the Road Sign appetizers.  I’m now hungrily awaiting the main course as the appetizers have greatly satisfied me and made my journey a bit less burdensome.  And, as for the course, it has become one of my mainstays for a difficult week?, month?, year? life?”.  My safety truly does lie in my defenselessness because it all boils down to the fact that we each are at different points in our understandings but we’re all, IMO, headed in the same direction, which includes the love angle.  Although, I sometimes do forget this but now it doesn’t take me as long to get back on track as it used to.

Boris, as you flounder between what to believe out of potpourri of belief systems, I see you currently playing the role of the “central negative”.  This is a very valuable role within a group of individuals because it allows others to internalize or throw out that which they are attempting to believe.  For example, if you expel, “What a bunch of BS! (translate it either way-cow fertilizer or belief systems) some one might “hit” you because you have treaded on the hollowed ground of something which they are still attempting to digest.  If the other individual is at the point of trusting and knowing that their BS is “right on” for them then they do not feel threatened and can view your comment(s) merely as a different point of view.  But if they too doubt their coveted belief than the sparks will fly.  In the tight rope walk between learning to balance our own intellectual understandings of things written or lectured on of basically other individuals speculation about their own experiences and those of still others before them yada, yadda, yadda…, while simultaneously attempting to make sense of our own actual experiences, we tend to be very sensitive or very aggressive.  In other words, we tend to push our own agenda on others adnausiaum or flair up at the slightest suggestion that our belief is mistaken.  Either way, the central negative keeps us thinking, if we allow it to, and we can use it is our indicator that we are not as sure of our belief as we pretend to be.

Love to all and I wish you well on your journey. Jean   

Oh, that is good news Alysia, your story of being aware of me,
while I was typing to you. At least we have got something working
for us in a higher dimension. You are an appropriate person for me
to have a connection with. I see it works when we are both involved
in what is an issue for us. The rest of the time it sort of gets
lost in the m band noise. I am not worried about the loss of
privacy at all, because we really don't have any privacy anyway, do
we? We are all connected. But here, we were able to direct our
thoughts to the person concerned, and that is good, since we were
planning to connect anyway. Nice to have some aiming ability.

So, where am I now?
I have continued to work on this, and the concept I have at present
is what I call my unavoidable risk doctrine. I first came up with
this, while thinking how to avoid the high cost of medical care,
which is caused by lawyers. The concept is that medical procedures
contain unavoidable risks, and the thing to work on is to force
acceptance of these risks, and not sue when the situation, such as
childbirth, can not be guaranteed to go off perfectly at the
present state of the art of medicine. The idea is that some risks
must be accepted, even expected.

Then I applied this idea to incarnation on Earth. This contains
certain risks when you incarnate here. You do not need to agree
that anything bad is to happen, but you accept the risk that
something bad might happen. You will do all you can to avoid bad
things happening, but nevertheless, it is a known risk. When the
bad things do happen, it does not have to represent a plan, and the
powers that be do not have to be considered sadists. It is simply
the best that can be done with the existing state of the art of the
creation of life.

Also, since free will is wide open here, that inevitably means that
all possibilities are wide open, including the worst. It is our
choice to make the civilization go one way or another, and the
choices are the exercise that we are going through. But the free
will contract for this planet inherently makes it a high risk
planet.

There is nothing in the way this planet is set up, to say that
everything should be under control and go well, the way, say that
when you get on an airplane or train you expect the ride to go
well, because everything is set up to go well. This planet is not
that type of setup where responsible persons in charge are held
accountable for a safe journey. It has innate risks, because of its
contract, and your unlucky number will come up sometimes. Well,
that is what my paradigm looks like at the moment. I dont expect
to resolve all of this, and will just move on, with each of us having
our ways of looking at it. But I did get a good dicussion! Thank you
all very much for your efforts.

love,
Boris

As I look through the responses to this question, I notice that many of the answers are attempting to respond to the question of what to believe so that we can beat the system and avoid negativity or bad things from happening-especially to us.  In answer to the original question, I don’t view these two as dichotomies, experience or learning, but rather as one leading to the other. Couldn’t we just be learning through the vehicle of our experiences?  ??? In answer to the underlying question of how can we beat the system, for me, it all depends on attitude and the belief that bad/evil things don’t really exist; only experiences do. 

I suspect that if we choose the attitude of looking for the good in any situation, we will reinforce the concept that we are powerful creators of our own reality (individually and collectively) as opposed to believing that we are victims susceptible to bad/evil experiences which are then expanded to the beliefs/judgments that there are bad people, evil people, and even demons for us power spiritual beings to fear.  For me it’s a simple choice that I need to continually make again and again and it’s always paid off.  And although, I think that attitude plays a big part in answering how I am to live my experiences so that I can learn from them, many others just don’t realize that they can use their free will to choose the content of their mind through multiple ways of knowing like intuition, spiritual insight, *higher self, science, logic, and/or their own inner authority.  Some still seem to be stuck in the limited belief that we only have science, logic, and external authorities to depend on for learning about our world and how to live in it.   *(I don’t mean a judging, criticizing, superior higher self but a cooperative buddy that happens to be non-physical at this time who is a aspect of ourselves.)

For me, words like bad, evil, and accidents are not neutral words.  They evoke negative emotions, which announce the use of judgments. I think that in judging anything, we are working with insufficient data.  If we, as individuals, could decide to suspend all judgment on anything and everything that happens and instead trust that it will all work out in the end, what’s the worst that could happen?  Actually, I think that it already has and it has led us to being on the threshold of a major global transformation of consciousness (an example of which is being played out on this board). I believe that it is all part of the metaphysical plan, which includes us learning to work together, learning that we are interconnected, and that we are love and the evolving earthly plan of us learning to work together for the good of humanity and the planet?  We have plenty of experiences that show us that the alternatives based on fear and instilling fear in others, do not work. 

Meanwhile, I think that many also don’t realize that judging something as bad, evil or disastrous has limited them from realizing that an opportunity has arisen to change their perception.  Sometimes it take some pretty strong experiences to learn how to forgive, how to let go, how to take risks, how to love, that we are more than our bodies, etc.   I also notice that when I work with others and hear their stories; I can see what they are here to learn.  To me their issues are obvious. It is only my own that are sometimes hidden.  I think that’s the main reason why we have each other. But we only seem to gain from this experience when we choose to look for our similarities rather than our differences. 

For example, I did a transport for another CM this week.  During the ride back to jail, I asked this young person how he passed his time?  He answered that he was so bored that he has started reading, which he has never done before.  Now this young inmate views his situation as a disaster but he has “unconsciously” used his “victim” role to open a door to the world of books.  As a result he is learning through his experience (possibly unconsciously) that he can do something about his boredom by using the resources around him like reading as opposed to using, plus he is getting to know other individuals who are far from his prison life.   He may never go on to discover, in his current life, what each and every contributor on this board has learned about reading, writing, and how involved individuals can get in discussions about what is real, who we are, what is important, how to retrieve others, etc. but he now holds the keys to potentially all intellectual knowledge through he simple decision, made is disgust, to cure his boredom.

I’ve been where he is in the way that I viewed certain circumstances in my life and I too read my way to freedom. As an aside, if we were more into rehabilitation as opposed to punishment and isolation, he would be a captured audience for a gifted teacher who could orchestrate his studies and possibly enhance them with a background of hemi sync tapes.  One prison in Florida is experimenting with Monroe’s material.  And another thing…Possibly I have another career option? Mmm…click on the teeth.  Anyhow, I’ve found that it never hurts to seek the good in so called bad/evil situations to get the positive creative juices flowing to learn by experience that we are the powerful creators of those experiences and that our job is to glean from those experiences the seeds for our lessons. 

Love to all, thanks for listening, Jean       

Yes Jean, thanks for taking the time to post such a thoughtful reply. I share the same suspicion as you, as to the possibilties of looking for the good in any situation...  Tim