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Where does the evil in humans come from?? (Read 35295 times)
Steve_ED
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #45 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 2:16pm
 
When I think of evil, these words and feeling come to mind as I have come across it in many dreams and OBEs.

- Separation from the whole
- Disconnected
- Lack of Love
- Negative Ego
- Violation of Conscience

ETC.  Just my thoughts.
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alysia
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #46 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 3:00pm
 
hello Ellen. I'm including a link to one of my roadsigns where I was molested and what happened so forgiveness could occur, forgiveness and justice, only I think justice is a thing we humans invented and belongs within the court system; the real work goes on inside of us. divine justice is quite something different.http://homepage.mac.com/laughingrain/ click on roadsign two if u're interested.

just briefly, we are indeed the killers here as well as the saviors. we've all lived many lives perpetrating murder or participating. graduation out of duality is possible.
what I learned is there is no one to forgive because I have done what they did somewhere, sometime.
the darkness is that which you are not, when you bring light into darkness it disapates and thats what happens in forgiveness, which can take an entire lifetime just to do what seems simple.
you're right though, for a time innocense was murdered. but just for a time. when face to face with a rapist or murderer, it is possible to remember them, who they really are, holding that vision of them for them if they have forgotten who they are. thats what this little story left out; that it's a bit of an experiment of possibilities and probabilities in our dramas but destiny is not set in stone, due to our choice to love or to hate/fear found only in the moment of confrontation. the little light could have decided it did not need to learn forgiveness to be special, instantly remembered who the friendly soul in agreement was and said I changed my mind, you need not kill me. and those little children? they are old souls as well. they will have choices also. remember the Jews? They have returned and they chant "never again." they are free from being slaughtered simply because they happen to be Jewish and the law had been established they were vermin. this is a deep subject. I respect your viewpoint that u think the story justifies evil. it cannot justify atrocities committed here, it can  only point the direction to go in towards the kind of world we all could build if we only could stop passing the buck and wake up to who we really are. I think that's what is happening during the shift in consciousness, some of these people on this board are causing me to do a double take and it wasn't like that a few years back!
...
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Raphael
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #47 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 4:00pm
 
The problem with your theory is that we could all learn the same lessons with less extreme events.

There are many ways to learn empathy, love, forgiveness and all those things.

For the girl, instead of being murdered she could have simply been kinapped.

For the murderer (if he has no mental illness) he could have mugged an old lady in the middle of the street while hurting her and everyone would have felt shocked and everyone would have worked to find the guy and help the lady.

Your theory makes sense but doesn't explain the illogical extremes that our world contains.
Angry

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bluejasn
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #48 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 9:44pm
 
Hey Ellen,

I think the idea behind the Little Soul Story isnt   to justify fearful acts like rape/murder.  The storys purpose is to offer concrete examples to reinforce ideas left by many great souls like Jesus and Buddha about forgiving even the seemingly unforgivable sinner. Please know that forgiveness for a cruel inhumane actions like rape/murder is not a condonement of these despicable acts,. it also does NOT mean TOLERANCE for these acts.  
But forgiveness does require us to rise above the anger and anguish these acts may cause those left behind.  The story of "The little soul and the sun "simply says  dont be sorry for those who have passed on even from heinous acts of murder, because it was their time,  murder in our world does not happen by accident, but is a we'll planned event as a means of teaching this world a greater lesson.  Sometimes in our world heinous acts and evil people are neccessary to wake and shake the world up from its present level of complacency of its conditions.  Take Hitler for example, an evil man indeed...but what was the world like before he came into power??

   As an example of what I mean by evil neccessary to change the world for the better please read my next posting.  I hope this wider perspective of the need for even evil acts will shed some light on the Little Soul Story, and why bad people are sometimes needed to wake the rest of us up to change for the greater good of ALL PEOPLE.

Jason

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bluejasn
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #49 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 9:45pm
 

You speak about unconditional forgiveness, how about the worst type of people who committed inhumane atrocities against humanity like Hitler? Should those people be forgiven too, don't they deserve their just punishment?

All fear and anger is a cry for help.

There is no one in this world, regardless of what they have done to each other who does not deserve forgiveness. The very idea of forgiving some people and not others, or drawing an arbitrary line where forgiveness ends is not Unconditional love but an act of fear that they are bad creations. A perfect being does not create bad creations nor does it make mistakes. Hitler's punishment may be the guilt he feels over the millions he killed from a false feeling of superiority rather than a divine punishment from God.

Hitler's punishmet would be in congruity to Universal Law, he will experience and equal and opposite reaction to what he has done,  and this may be a psychological reparation, he will be made fully aware of what his actions have done to so many and how he has hurt so many, he will not be punished as an arbitrary act from God nor will he be punished forever. Hitler acted out from fear, his fears like any human are rooted in the lack of self love and this lack of self love and acceptance manifests itself with a protective layer of ego, his ideas of personal superiority was a manifestation of his fearful ego. Once we become fully aware and responsible souls the hardest thing we can do is recognize that we hurt another person. Hurting others is easy when we have blinders on to impair the hurt we cause from our actions, but in the world beyond these blinders(our ego) doesnt exist, hence he will realize what he has done with full awareness of how much pain he has caused each individual persecuted,..if anything the pain of knowing he has inflicted so much pain on others is worse than a hell of fire and brimestone, it is a hell of knowning how far he has failed to come close to expressing unconditional love, which is our creators will for us on earth. How we go about it, or whether we even choose to go about it is up to us.. We are like kids in a preschool, we make mistakes, some people make BIG spiritual mistakes, some make smaller mistakes, but a loving parent will always forgive the mistakes with the wisdom that mistakes are what causes us to grow. We all make mistakes, we all do bad things, some a lot worse than others, but without this experience, without the experience of relativity,love and fear, hot and cold, left and right, large and small, here and there, we would have no opportunity to make mistakes, with no place to go and nothing to do, existence would be a single, static, motionless awareness. But it is my belief that we do have mistakes, and we do have the choice to learn from  them, whether we choose to learn and change is up to us, the Universal law of reaction will always show us when we are going astray with our fearful mistakes it is an automatic nudge for us to put us back into the right direction. However I would urge everyone to take piece of mind in knowing that in the end an Unconditionally Loving Creator forgives even the worst of mistakes made by his creation because the creator sees the big picture of evolution and knows that mistakes are part of the experience to building an evolving soul. Just as we as a world evolved greatly as a result of the devestations caused by World War 2, so does a fearful soul like Hitler evolve by acknowledging and coming to grips with his  personal devestations. Perhaps perfection is not always doing the right thing, perhaps in the smaller picture thats what perfection appears to be.

Trying to live by a standard far above what we are currently capable of and being punished if we fail. But I would argue that in the bigger picture, that perfection is accepting the neccessity of Good and Bad, and knowing they are vital to each other. Perfection is blessing the good and bad. Perfection is unconditional love, unconditional love is knowing that the bad is neccessary for the good to know itself and blessing the bad for giving the good that opportunity. In the end everything and everyone is good and perfect created in the likeness of our creator. But perhaps like Shakespeare says "All the lifes a stage, and we are merely actors" Perhaps this time around we cast ourselves as the good guys because last time  we played the bad guys. And in coming onto the stage of life we caused ourselves to forget all the good we know in each other, so that we may fully experience the dynamics of the 2 polar differences of Love and Fear in their fullest expression. Perhaps all the Bad guys ever needed was for some good guy to remind them of all the good they had in them.  In the end, it is in the nature of our creator to forgive all his creation, . The only question is will the creation overcome all he has done and choose to accept respnsibility for how much hurt he has caused and then learn to forgive himself of it? When we come to full awareness of the hurt we have caused it is the most difficult thing in the world to forgive ourselves.

We must realize that some bad events are intended to happen not by God but by humanity. Since we are given a free will are are free to do what we choose without interference. Hitler for example was a reflection of what was going on in our world at the time, it revealed to the world in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS how Spiritually unevolved we still were, while being very technologically evolved with ehough weapons to destroy our world. Hitler could not have existed in a world where humanity found its peaceful nature. Hitler words could only be taken to heart by individuals and a nation who harbored incredible hatred, anger, resentment, fear ,jealously and racism towards others. Hitler's words could only be heeded by a world where racial superiority was not only accepted by commended by the masses. The heartless massacre of 20 million people was in short a wake up call to the world to let us all know just how far we had actually evolved. It challeneged our status quo in which we were at the time too content with. It challenged our currently morale beliefs at the time (especially racism in the United States) our cultural stories (survival of the fittest) and our religious beliefs( many nazis including the SS also believed in Jesus Christ). Sometimes an individual like Hitler will come along and give the world a wake up call, that is what Hitler did, not intentionally but nonetheless it was a wakeup call to the rest of the World.

It was a wake up call to African Americans who were still second class citizens with no voting priveledges and went to fight and die in the white man's war.

It was a wake up call to the Women in the United States who realized they could take over the factory jobs their men held before the war and do an equal job.

It was a wake up call to Japan to show that their brand of fanatic Nationalism, racism and inhumanity towards fellow humans would not be accepted by the world at large.

It was a wake up call the the Germans that said Racism, and Anti Semetism would no longer be accepted in this world.

It was a wake up call to Chinese Americans who were herded into gathering posts(Santa Anita Race Track) and internment carmps  along with the Japanese because all us Asians looked alike to the white Americans.

It was a wake up call to all Patriotic Japanese Americans including the 442nd who fought valiantly for a country that considered their kind not only 2nd class citizens but possible spies for the enemy.  Interestingly enough the Neisei 442nd was the most decorated Unit of all American Units fighting in World War 2, for bravery valour and courage under fire. 

It was a wake up call to the Scientists at Los Alimos who created the first nuclear bomb not knowing if the fission chain reaction might continue forever and destroy our entire world.

It was a wake up call to the world to know that man now possed the technology to create weapons that could detroy the world many times over.



We all know Hitler was a brutal dictator who killed tens of millions in inhumane ways. The more important question is what was the world like before Hitler came along and shook things up?

In 1939 - 80 Years after the Civil war, blacks were still little better than slaves in the United States. Blacks had no voting rights, separate faucilities for restrooms, restaurants, schooling, and countless every day activities.

In 1939 and in WW2 black soldiers who inlisted in the Army were generally not allowed to fight, with few exceptions, they were given jobs as truck drivers, and cooks.  They were only given jobs as engineers when they could prove that they were "intellegent" enough to operate "complicated" machinery.

In 1939- Although Jesus preached about being brothers to everyone, the popular majority of Christians and Catholics still treated blacks, chinese, jews, and any non whites with racism and prejudice and disregarded that portion of Jesus's message.  Interestingly enough, even though it was accepted for white cathlolics to feel superior to blacks, jews, and chinese, Catholics themselves were looked upon by the majority Protestants as being lower class citizens and people in the eyes of God as well.

In 1939 Racism and Anti Semetism was a common household thing to the majority of white families in the US, in both the North and South.

In 1939 Women were also treated somewhat as second class citizens, they were not found in professional jobs such as Doctors, Lawyers, or even factory work. Women were far from being seen as equal to men in every respect.- Without world war 2 and women proving themselves in the munitions factory that armed the Allied soldiers, how much longer would it have taken women to enter the work force?

In 1939 Racism towards asians Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans caused them to be placed into Concentration camps. The Japanese were thought of as spies for the Rising Sun while the Chinese people were also tossed in because the white people couldnt really tell the difference between the two and didnt care much to find out. The German Americans however were free to go about their daily business including many German Americans sympathetic to the Nazi cause,because racism went by the color of your skin not nationality or allegiance to country. 

In 1939 Germany and Europe Hating Jews was nothing new or extra ordinary it was a customary thing for the past millenium. It was popular to hate Jews, Gypsies, Gays and Handicapped people.

In 1939 Germans held an belief in the superiority of their blood, they believed they were a master race because.

In 1939 Western World blonde hair and blue eyes was thought to be superior to all other variations. This belief is still somewhat held today but we have come a long way since then.

In 1939 Japanese held a fanatical sense of superiority over the other asian races and even white races, they believed they were better than Chinese, Korean, Phillippino,Thai or any other western race.

These are just a few choice examples of what the world was like before World War 2 brought these issues to the attention of the world. People lived their

lives accepting the status quo as ok and never gave a second thought that there should be any change to their system of living. Then Hitler came along

and shook things up and as a result of his henious actions and World War 2....

Woman soon knew that they were the equal of men in the work force, this started the trend of women working and stepping away from the housewife role.

African Americans and Japanese Americans who fought Valiantly in World War 2 demanded their equal respect from the white majority for having fought bravely and died for their country.

Anti Semetism in the US ceased to become common place among the whites. A greater Tolerance for all races and religions was then taught to children.

Genocide of a race was agreed to no longer be tolerated in the world community.

A new nation Israel was created in Palestine which gave the Jews of the world a place to call home.

Japan gained a new found respect and admiration for the west. It was the doctrine of an American General during occupation and recovery

that guided Japans automotive industry into becoming a dominating factor in the worlds automotive industry.

It makes me think, without world war 2 would antisemetism be more prevailant today? Would blacks even have the right to vote? How much

longer would it have taken for women to enter the work force? Would racism towards asians living in the US still be commonplace? Would I

even be allowed to live in the United States, or would I even want to live in a country that is racist towards non whites? My conclusions is

sometimes the fastest way for the world to evolve as a whole is through war. This is because War brings up issues that the individual nations

like to keep quiet. War forces a nations dark secrets into the lime light, where peacetime forces the underpriveledged memebers of a nation

to go on living their daily lives and enduring spiritual injustice.

In history people like Hitler are sometimes needed to give the world a wake up call and show what evil can possess mens hearts. While

revealing Hitler's evil war causes our own evils and prejudices to surface into national and world attention that we previously ignored. Just like our character can only be forged through difficult

circumstances, the character of the human race can quickly be fine tuned through world wide calamity. How far have we come as a nation since

Hitler? How far have we spiritually evolved as a world? Sadly,for reasons of racial superiority, even today we don't live up to our word to stop Genocide.

Are we overdue for another calamity or world war that shakes up the earth in order to bring us closer together? Or do we now choose to evolve

willingly and take our past mistakes more seriously.


7:24 PM - add eprops - add comments - email it


We can only love our neighbor to the extent we love our self. We are already extending to our neighbor how we feel about our self -- that is the problem to having no peace on earth. Most people are so filled with fear, low self esteem, anger, anxiety, lack and separation — that this is what we are giving to each other and perpetuating in this world we co-create.

Jason
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Brendan
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #50 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 11:54pm
 
Don't tell me that Hitler, Pol Pot, or Stalin were
"crying for help".
And even if they were, and they got "help"... what
good would it do them?
These men were CHARACTEROLOGICALLY bad news
for those around them. They didn't want "help" - they
wanted POWER.
Sadly, this personality type seems to be very well-represented in leadership positions...
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Ellen2
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #51 - Apr 24th, 2005 at 12:51pm
 
Dear Alysia:  I read your link & I am in awe of  the depth in your soul from a very young age.  I went through stuff too as a child, nothing comparable.  I mostly kept my head low to keep safe, but you were fully & courageously engaged.  I'm a bit out of my depth here.  My reaction to the little soul story came from a more superficial place than your interpretation.  You were in touch with evil, & I don't think Jim was a former "friendly soul" who God sent to teach you forgiveness.  Other than that, I have a lot to ponder before I understand anything at any depth.

Hi Jason:  As I said to Alysia, I'm in over my head here.  My objection to the story was mainly to the depiction of "Friendly Soul" coming from God's side to do evil.  I can't see Hitler, Stalin, etc. as friendy souls sent by God to eventually influence the course of History.  I think the evil in the world has nothing to do with God; He gave us free will & some people choose evil, wherever that originally came from.  Sure they do it out of fear, but I don't feel compassion for them; everybody is afraid to a greater or lesser degree & choosing evil is not the only way to deal with fear.  Forgiveness?  I don't feel it's in my place to condemn, approve, forgive, or otherwise engage in their choices.  Forgiveness is between an individual & his/her conscience &/or God.  I'm struggling to forgive myself for numerous mistakes I've made.  I want to get my direction from a source of love.
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freebird
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #52 - Apr 24th, 2005 at 2:24pm
 
Jason,

The story you posted about "Little Soul" is interesting and even moving, but it does have some problems.  For example, evil actions do not have to be planned before birth in order to occur.  They would happen anyway, without planning, because humans are naturally predisposed toward animalistic selfishness while in a physical body, and evil naturally flows out of the fleshly inclinations.  If a person murders a little girl, it's probably because their animalistic ego got out of control due to life experiences that corrupted their soul, and probably there is some element of mental illness involved.  All of this can be naturally explained by the animalistic body we are incarnated in while on earth.  The body with its brain, evolved through natural selection, is programmed to favor selfishness because the selfish animals or people are historically the ones who have reproduced more; it's that simple.  For example, a powerful king or warlord could rape thousands and thousands of women and sire thousands of children, who would inherit his genes to have a more selfish and violent personality.  This has happened many times throughout history.  For example, it is a scientifically documented fact that over 25% of central Asian men are directly descended from Ghengis Khan.  He had so many concubines and raped so many women, that he passed on his genes to create an entire race of descendents!  The same thing is almost certainly true with other warlords in history that have fathered other races all over the planet.  Basically, we are all descended from evil men, and science has proved that personality is influenced by the genes, so it is natural that a lot of people would commit crimes and evil actions.  Good people restrain themselves, don't rape, don't pillage and plunder, and historically have not passed on their genes as much as bad people.

Because we have spirits with free will, we are able to struggle against the tendencies of the animalistic flesh and often overcome them.  Weaker spirits generally succumb to evil more frequently or more terribly.  Also, people with corrupting childhoods and life experiences succumb more easily to evil, because the brain and the character is formed mostly in youth.  And people with worse genes for personality and screwed up brains for any reason also are more likely to commit evil acts, because their spirit has to be stronger than usual to resist the corrupt impulses of the flesh.

As for Hitler, he probably had a combination of factors contributing to his extreme evil.  We know he had a father who beat him constantly as a child, and once even beat him into a coma for two days, which may have caused brain damage that affects the personality -- and also his psyche would have been affected by his childhood even without any brain damage.  He came of age at a time when his country was filled with anger because of WWI and poverty among the German lower and middle class produced strong anti-Semitism; so he was influenced by these currents of thought.  Also, to do the terrible things he did, Hitler probably also had a weak spirit that was more willing to succumb to evil impulses rather than struggle to love, forgive, and do the right thing.  But plenty of people are spiritually weak and would have become a Hitler if put in the same life situation he was in.

Freebird
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alysia
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #53 - Apr 24th, 2005 at 2:45pm
 
Ellen you are sweet and thanks for reading my story, it was hard to write it as it was to live it. I needed your feedback and it did my heart good.  I would not want to write a story that was somehow too deep for understanding so you guys are playing your part for me as I am thinking about this myself. I think at some basic level we all are trying to get back to love where we came from. I believe theres only selfishness and unselfishness, not good and evil going on. I really don't think Jim was here to teach me how to forgive from that perspective either, but I did get strong really fast from that experience and he became an honorable man as well. what I might have been doing is drawing more energy from the oversoul into my waking consciousness. I call him DP, others might call him God. I just want everyone to know that we can do this here. not just me. cross your fingers for me that I can make it understandable perhaps. thanks again for your kind response. alysia...
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #54 - Apr 26th, 2005 at 7:11pm
 
I read somewhere that "evil" comes from eating of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". Maybe the "Eleventh Commandment" was "See no evil where none exists."

The apple of the Tree is very often associated with the "apple" of the mandrake plant. When eaten this apple has the same effect as LSD. Everything stops, and we find ourselves on the verge of death. To survive we must be valid. That which we obtain by illogical (immoral) means is invalid. Thus we are at risk of extermination due to perceived evil in ourselves. (You can try this with LSD, or DMT or Salvia Divinorum, and in every case it is horriffic!)

IMHO Evil is simply making mistakes but not having the insight to call them blunders, nor the will to repair them.
d
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Anja
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #55 - Apr 27th, 2005 at 6:14am
 
I wonder... if every single person in the world knew - without question - that life is eternal, would we still consider physical murder evil?

Anja
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Raphael
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #56 - Apr 27th, 2005 at 6:18am
 
I would say yes to that because it attacks people's freedom to live.
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #57 - Apr 27th, 2005 at 8:39am
 
Anja, I feel that if every single person in the world knew that life was eternal, there would have been a tremendous shift in everyone's consciousness for them to know this and therefore murder would be a thing of the past and not even considered.  Roll Eyes

Blessings,
Mairlyn  Wink
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alysia
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #58 - Apr 27th, 2005 at 11:20am
 
Quote:
I read somewhere that "evil" comes from eating of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". Maybe the "Eleventh Commandment" was "See no evil where none exists."

The apple of the Tree is very often associated with the "apple" of the mandrake plant. When eaten this apple has the same effect as LSD. Everything stops, and we find ourselves on the verge of death. To survive we must be valid. That which we obtain by illogical (immoral) means is invalid. Thus we are at risk of extermination due to perceived evil in ourselves. (You can try this with LSD, or DMT or Salvia Divinorum, and in every case it is horriffic!)

IMHO Evil is simply making mistakes but not having the insight to call them blunders, nor the will to repair them.
d


this is interesting Dave. I heard u call yourself an old fart, well I'm an old hippie here so we get along swell. the point I'm looking at here that u make is reminding me of ACIM quote that nobody understands "Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists."

people just read that and scratch their heads, but if properly understood knowing that evil does not exist as real can introduce an element of grace into a life and away from fear that I never thought possible for a wandering ex-hippy. Bruce has an example from his books when doing retrievals and if you see all this goopy black stuff on a person, you simply "see it not there."
I couldn't deal with LSD btw. one look in the mirror convinced me it was not to be my path; there was absolutely nothing in the mirror on my face but waves of fear and love morphing it this and that way. yes, it was somewhat horrific to see. what seemed immoral was the taking of drugs themselves.
I am still addicted to latte's however. love, alysia...
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Re: Where does the evil in humans come from??
Reply #59 - Apr 28th, 2005 at 11:04am
 
Alysia-
I was a hippie in the 60's, but discovered that you could get more bang for the buck by adding kundalini yoga and meditation to my herbal supplements, and sort of strayed into a study of reality instead of clinging to my nice comfortable fantasy life. The modern bombshell instead of LSD seems to be Salvia Divinorum (no, I do Not suggest you try it). It rather abruptly brings us to realization of the end of life as we know it, and face to face with "Ooops. Look what I did to people when ..." and all the karmic dreck that follows. However, I notice that one response is to run and hide (keeps the dreck level up) and the other is to say, "OK, God. Fix me."  And then we get all kinds of maladaptive karmic results, But that seems to be the heroic path. It's just a matter of faith in that which is truly real, as you say. God is love, You are God. You are love,  ... and so is that SOB who raped the child.
Strange. Lova ya back-
dave
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