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"Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4 (Read 36543 times)
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #60 - Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:58pm
 
  One would think that a Jewish woman, with no prior interest or liking of Yeshua, if she did meet him as she describes in her NDE, might perceive this Jewish born man to be classically "Hebrew" looking, dark hair, eyes, skin, etc. 

  Yet, that was not the case, she saw him with reddish hair.  Rare in general, but especially among Middle Eastern peoples. and just so happens to correspond with those other sources.  Shocked Cool
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #61 - Jan 17th, 2013 at 3:13pm
 
[Justin:]  In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in one of the prophecies of the coming Messiah that is not contained within traditional texts, it was mentioned that he would have reddish hair.

(1) The Dead Sea Scrolls don't mention Jesus.  nor does the text you cite explcitly refer to the Messiah.  Old Testament heroes are routinely portrayed as "chosen" for their missions.
(2) Jesus understands Himself as "the coming Messiah" (singular), but the Dead Sea Community has no such expectation.  Rather, they expect an anointed eschatological Priest and King (2 figures).  So the red-headed man does not apply to Jesus.
(3) Joseph Fitzmyer reflects the scholarly consensus when he identifies Noah as the "the chosen one" in the text you cite.  The text is in any case fragmentary and at best ambiguous and thus cannot confidently b be cited as messianic. 

Colton's identification of Akiane's portrait as the Jesus he saw in heaven has as a control dozens of portraits of Jesus that he rejects as the Jesus he saw.  Colton did not know who Akiane is or that she painted Jesus on the basis of heavenly visions.  The genius of the 8-year-old's painting allowed it sell for $40,000--a telltale sign that something paranormal is involved in this synchronicity.  All this proves nothing, but it strikes me as a lot more credible than the subjective impressions you cite.

Don  
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #62 - Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:08pm
 
Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 3:13pm:
[Jason:]  In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in one of the prophecies of the coming Messiah that is not contained within traditional texts, it was mentioned that he would have reddish hair.

(1) The Dead Sea Scrolls don't mention Jesus.  nor does the text you cite explcitly refer to the Messiah.  Old Testament heroes are routinely portrayed as "chosen" for their missions.
(2) Jesus understands Himself as "the coming Messiah" (singular), but the Dead Sea Community has no such expectation.  Rather, they expect an anointed eschatological Priest and King (2 figures).  So the red-headed man does not apply to Jesus.
(3) Joseph Fitzmyer reflects the scholarly consensus when he identifies Noah as the "the chosen one" in the text you cite.  The text is in any case fragmentary and at best ambiguous and thus cannot confidently b be cited as messianic. 

Colton's identification of Akiane's portrait as the Jesus he saw in heaven has as a control dozens of portraits of Jesus that he rejects as the Jesus he saw.  Colton did not know who Akiane is or that she painted Jesus on the basis of heavenly visions.  The genius of the 8-year-old's painting allowed it sell for $40,000--a telltale sign that something paranormal is involved in this synchronicity.  All this proves nothing, but it strikes me as a lot more credible than the subjective impressions you cite.

Don  


   Don, if you read the entire part of "The Birth of the Chosen One", it's extremely Messianic in scope and tone.  If I could copy and past from Google books, i would, but i can't.  The authors of that book however talk about how some researchers/scholars do believe it refers to a prophecy of the coming Messiah (aka Yeshua for Christians), or at least to a Messiah if not "The" Messiah.  Some have thought it might pertain to Noah.  However, what's obvious to me is that Noah was around a very long time ago, and i doubt there would be any surviving prophecies re: Noah's coming.  This text is written in a very prophetic manner, talking about someone who is yet to come.

Some of the specific passages mentioned in that section like, "He will reveal secrets from the Most High"  and whose "Wisdom shall come to all peoples" , or "he will know the secrets of men", or "he will know the secrets of living things" or "All of their designs against him shall fail, and the array (?) of all living things will be great...  his purposes because he is the chosen one of God... His birth and the spirit of his breath [...] his purpose will last forever [...] 

  Oh, there is more than mirrors and dovetails quite nice with Yeshua--his life, purpose, abilities..  Well, if it walks and quacks like Yeshua, it probably is.  Wink   But, i suppose you already formed a belief about Colton and Akiane and aren't particularly open minded to other interpretations. 

Regarding the Essenes, i think like any group, there was different perceptions and beliefs among different members and sub groups to some extent. The historical sources about the Essenes at times contradict each other regarding some of their beliefs and practices.  It's also possible that some of the Essene peoples' expectation of a coming Priest and King, was more or less correct because John the Baptist was an instrumental part of Yeshua life and service.  It's like John paved, or prepared the way for Yeshua.  John came from the line of the Priesthood, and his father Zachariah was one of the Priests in the Temple.  Hence John may have been coming Priest figure, and Yeshua the "King".  Perhaps they just placed more emphasis on the Elijah like, prophetic figure who was to pave the way for "The" Messiah than do most modern Christian thinkers?  John doesn't seem to get much focus in todays time. 

    Re: Akiane and Colton and your statement about my subjective statements re: Yeshua's looks.  Yes, my personal experiences and perceptions are subjective, but i added these as an add on.  I mentioned 4 outer, psychically derived sources not directly connected to me or each other.  An NDE from a Jewish woman with no previous belief, interest in, or liking of Yeshua, Joe McMoneagle, a well known former U.S. gov. remote viewer with some definite and verified skills (though i think his future stuff is way, way off often), Edgar Cayce--perhaps one of the most verified, vast, and broad psychic works in the world, and the "Birth of the Chosen One" passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

  Personally, i will take those 4 outer, other sources WITH my own experiences as a combination, over just Colton's and Akiane's perceptions, any day. 5 to 2, the odds are better. 

  Lastly, my name is not "Jason", it's Justin. Geesh, we both have been part of this site for many, many years and you still don't know my name?  I'm wounded Don, truly wounded.   Cheesy 
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #63 - Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:29pm
 
[Justin, sorry, the name mistake iand is corrected in my post].

You apparently don't understand how apocalyptic works.  Enoch precedes Noah, and yet, is a source of major future speculation.  Jewish apocalyptic arises as an antidote to the prevailing belief that prophetic inspiratoin has been silenced.  So to present new prohpetic revelations, one needs the fiction of ancient Old Testament voices coming alive (e. g. Enoch, Ezea, Baruch, and yes, Noah, etc.).

Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.  Thirdly, your dogma may make you reluctant to accept the scholarly consensus that Noah, not a messianic figure is the subject of the red hair.  But this consensus establishes your contention as no more than a wild guess.  The text is clearly rather ambiguous. 

Don
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #64 - Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:51pm
 
Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:29pm:
Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.

The Dead Sea scrolls are right.

Jesus was red haired because he was Scottish. He was a short Scottish guy with red hair.
According to Wikipedia, the red hair color of Jesus gave rise to the name of the Red Sea.

Jesus - red haired.
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #65 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 2:40pm
 
Berserk2 wrote on Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:29pm:
[Justin, sorry, the name mistake iand is corrected in my post].

You apparently don't understand how apocalyptic works.  Enoch precedes Noah, and yet, is a source of major future speculation.  Jewish apocalyptic arises as an antidote to the prevailing belief that prophetic inspiratoin has been silenced.  So to present new prohpetic revelations, one needs the fiction of ancient Old Testament voices coming alive (e. g. Enoch, Ezea, Baruch, and yes, Noah, etc.).

Secondly, you miss the point that neither the Essenes nor Jesus and His followers have the same messianic model in mind.  So the application of the "red-hair" text to Jesus is bogus.  Thirdly, your dogma may make you reluctant to accept the scholarly consensus that Noah, not a messianic figure is the subject of the red hair.  But this consensus establishes your contention as no more than a wild guess.  The text is clearly rather ambiguous. 

Don


   No worries about the name thing, i was just joking around with you.  Thank you for the apology. 

  Yes, i DO understand the above method that the writers of the scripture used.  However, when they are speaking of or "on behalf of" some patriarch or prophet, they usually do so in the past or present tense... that was my point.  The segment of "The Birth of the Chosen One" is all in future tense of what WILL happen--it's a prophecy just like in Isaiah (or others) about the coming Messiah.

   Here's a little more directly from the book, the authors of the book write, "With the full release of all the unpublished scrolls, it seems possible that the initial impulse was correct: the "chosen one" is a messiah, if not the Messiah."   Perhaps you are more learned than the authors of the book, and therefore your conclusions are more accurate? 

    I am wondering though, if you have read the full text of that segment?  I've read the book from the library before.  So if this seer wasn't seeing the future life and ministry of Yeshua, then what unusual and exalted figure was he prophesying about?   Because clearly, if you read the full text the person he is describing, he is quite spiritually mighty, wise, Godly, psychically aware, and to be very influential and in a very far reaching way.

  Do you have any informed guesses of who it may actually be about?   Do you least allow for the possibility or probability that it could be about Yeshua?

  Because i would have to disagree, it doesn't seem that ambiguous to me.  Sure, it doesn't mention anything about riding a donkey, or the like, and is more general, broad info, but it does correlate quite well to Yeshua, his life, purpose, and influence.
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #66 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 4:41pm
 
Qumran [Essene] and aarly Christian eschatologies are contradictory in expection (one enemy-loving Messiah vs. a warlike llatter-day Priest and King).  The Essenes didn't recogize Jesus and vice versa. Jesus' self-understanding is rooted in Old Testament prophecy, not in contemporary sectarian prophecy.  So even if the red-haired chosen one is not Noah (and the consensus is that it is Noah), it is the prdoc ut of Essene fiction and is irrelevant to Jesus' appearance.  No respectable DSS or bibilcal scholar sees the 4Q text as relevant to Jesus' appearance!  My ex-professor (John Strugnell) was in on the discovery of the DSS and actually controlled their editing and translation decades.  So I know the scholarly research on this very well.

Don
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #67 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 8:17pm
 
    So now it's just "Essene fiction"?  Ah, i see, the Essenes didn't take their prophecies and spirituality too seriously did they LOL?  Seems to me that they were formed because some people were getting sick of the moral corruptness and materialism that was so prevalent in the more traditional and mainstream groups around them of the times. 

   So i guess the authors of that book aren't respectable biblical researchers, since they surmise that it's very possibly linked to Yeshua, or at least to "a" messiah?

    Hmm, the Essenes didn't recognize Jesus and vice versa... Jesus didn't seem to be too much a fan of dogmatic, secular thinking though he was in many ways a Jew and was very familiar with the O.T.   However, isn't it true that a number of scholars think it is highly probable that John the Baptist was strongly connected to the Essenes and vice versa? 

  If this is the case, then certainly Jesus did recognize the Essenes and vice versa, because again, John played an important role in preparing the way for Jesus's ministry.  True, it does not specifically state in the N.T. that John was part of the Essenes, but let's face it, there is gaping holes and even some contradictions in the N.T.  I mean, speak of a lack of info, where was Jesus and what was he doing between ages 13 to 29? 

  So, just because it doesn't specifically mention something, it doesn't mean that there isn't a connection. 

   

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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #68 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 9:26pm
 
Justin: So now it's just "Essene fiction"?  Ah, i see, the Essenes didn't take their prophecies and spirituality too seriously did they LOL? 

You are confusing Essene prophecy with other genres. Essene prophecy was developed through their pesher interpretation of Old Testament prophecy.  The "red head" text is not am example of this.  You are not qualified to dispute the claim that this figure is Noah.  In Jewish testimentary literature including that of Qumran) fictional conversations, speeches, and predictions are put in the mouths of ancient Patriarchs.   This is one such example.  There is no evidence that Jesus took such texts seriously. 

[Justin:] So i guess the authors of that book aren't respectable biblical researchers, since they surmise that it's very possibly linked to Yeshua, or at least to "a" messiah?

[Justin:]  Isn't it true that a number of scholars think it is highly probable that John the Baptist was strongly connected to the Essenes and vice versa? 

Not "highly probable," just a genuine possibility.  John's teaching is as different as it is simiilar to Qumran's; and there are other hermit monks living solitary lives in the Transjordanian wilderness (e. .g Bannus, with whom Josephus studied).  Jesus and His followers only embraced the single Messiah concept rooted in OT prophecy.  The 2-figure Essene eschatology was totally different and featured intervention by the archangel Michael to help the Essenes crush the Roman oppressors (see the War Scroll)l  The Essenes don't recognize Jesus or vice versa.  Jesus advocates nonviolence and a kingdom not of this world.  But your most serious oversight is John the Baptist's later disilusionment with Jesus' unfolding nonviolent Messianic self-image. 

i[Jusitn:] Where was Jesus and what was he doing between ages 13 to 29? 

Living a very ordinary life in Nazareth as a carpenter.  When He launches His teaching and healing ministry, His home town and even His brothers are scandalized because they had no hint of such a display of power from his ordinary life as a carpenter.

By the way, Jesus was born in 7 BC and crucified in 30.  So He probably lived 36 or 37 years.  In 7 BC, when Jesus was 12, Jews in towns around Nazareth led by Judas the Galiliean launched a full-scale revolt against Rome.   Joseph is still alive in 7 BC, but there is no evidence that he was still alive after that.  I think Joseph was either killed or sold into slavery after the failed revolt.  See Josephus's description of what happened to those perceived as supporters of this rebellion. 

Don


   

 
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Re: "Heaven is for Real" Colton's NDE at Age 4
Reply #69 - Jan 19th, 2013 at 2:36am
 
harvey wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 6:08pm:
From the New York Times:

"Heaven Is for Real” was published in late 2010, became a word-of-mouth best seller and has spent 59 (nonconsecutive) weeks as the No. 1 nonfiction paperback on The New York Times’s best-seller list. Recently the publisher, Thomas Nelson, spun off a children’s picture book, now also a best seller, with illustrations verified by Colton. And sometime in 2014, courtesy of DeVon Franklin, vice president of production at Columbia Pictures, who considers his faith “a professional asset,” a movie version should be released in theaters. "

Wow! I'll bet the Burpo's are laughing all the way to the bank!

Lynn Vincent, who co-authored the book with Todd Burpo. Quote: "Vincent, a U.S. Navy veteran, spent 11 years as an investigative reporter and feature writer for WORLD magazine, a conservative Christian newsweekly with a paid subscribership of more than 120,000. She has lectured on writing at the World Journalism Institute, and at The King's College in New York City. Vincent was hired by former Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin to be the collaborator on Palin's memoir, Going Rogue. Upon release, the book immediately hit no. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list. Palin's memoir is one of only four political memoirs to sell more than 1 million copies, with current sales over 3 million."

Wow! She must be one helluva writer/storyteller!

The World Journalism Institute and the King's College. Quote: "The World Journalism Institute (WJI) was founded by Robert Case II in 1999. WJI is an independent journalism school whose mission is to recruit, equip, place and encourage journalists who are Christians in the mainstream newsrooms of America. In 1998, Marvin Olasky, Nick Eicher, and Robert Case II discussed the possibility of establishing an independent school of journalism with Joel Belz, publisher of World magazine. The institute is currently the largest independent school of journalism for Christian journalists in the U.S. and is headquartered in New York City on the campus of The King's College."

Don't fundamentalist Christians also call themselves conservative Christians?

Now from the other side. Quote: "It is rather a shame. Thanks to Heaven Is For Real, for the rest of Colton Burpo’s life people may well want to talk to him about something he barely remembers more than anything he achieves afterwards.

What Colton Burpo didn’t already know about what was going on in the real world while he was unconscious, he could have guessed (for instance that his extremely religious parents were praying). If any of the real-world revelations still seem too unlikely, the father and author Todd Burpo admits a period at the beginning of the poor kid’s interrogation when Todd hadn’t thought not to ask leading questions. There’s no telling what he fed Colton.

As for Colton’s descriptions of heaven, he could have picked up any amount of theological geography from his father before the event. Despite this, he recounted a great deal of detail which doesn’t match the Bible at all. Some believers have rejected the whole thing on this basis, but there are many others who simply ignore what Colton got “wrong” even as they proclaim what he got “right”.

There’s a decent critique of the book and the kid’s story here, written by a Christian apologist academic of all people. He’s one of those for whom the “wrong” theology is a dealbreaker. So you see, even many of the faithful aren’t happy with Colton’s testimony."

Here's the Christian apologist academic article. Quote: 'Heaven may be for real, but no matter how emotionally appealing you find it, the story in this book – isn’t.

These days there are more than a few “near death experience” books making the rounds that were written by Christians. This one’s a little different in that the witness is a very young boy, Colton Burpo – which makes the emotional appeal all the harder to wipe out with rational analysis.

However, like it or not, from an evidential perspective, the details in the book don’t add up to a reliable testimony. Not that there is much useful that could be used for that. Over 99 percent of the book is simply narrative, with nothing with which the spirits can be tested save a few details, which can be classified into two categories.

The first category could be good proof for the veracity of Colton’s experiences, if they could surely be found to be valid – which they unfortunately cannot. The second category, however, absolutely proves Colton’s story to be merely a case of imagination – and we’ll get to that shortly.

The first category has to do with events allegedly perceived by the subject NDE experiencer which occur during their indisposition – typically, things like allegedly seeing loved ones from some higher vantage point. I’m not out here to determine whether NDE experiences are real or not, but I will judge whether the evidence given shows that this one is, and the evidence in this first category, while seemingly impressive on the surface, doesn’t add up to enough significance to be determinative:

xx-xxi, 61 – Colton claims he left his body and saw what turned out to be an accurate (but very vague) description of what his parents were doing at the time: His father praying in one room, and his mother on the phone and praying in another.

43 – Colton indicates knowledge that he had nearly died.

91 – Colton tells his father that Jesus had called him (Todd) to be a pastor when he was younger.

94-5 – Colton shows awareness of having had an unborn sister who had died while still enwombed.

122-3 Colton recognizes a photo of his deceased grandfather as a younger man, matching it to a man he reputedly met in heaven.

Finally, here and there, there are examples given where Colton describes details in accord with some Biblical text (particularly Revelation).

Todd Burpo assures us that he shared none of these details with Colton, but there is little done to validate this assurance. For the second example (43) he wonders if the medical staff of the hospital could have said something Colton overheard, but this is not investigated at all. For the rest, there is nothing to show that these details were not somehow gathered by some other means by Colton – whether from other relatives, members of Burpo’s church, or overheard conversations with other parties.

That’s the first category. The second has fewer entries, but it far more damning for the authenticity of Colton’s experiences, especially as far as the Christian is concerned: How well do Colton’s experiences accord with external evidence not found in the Bible? It’s the sort of thing that could never occur to someone like Colton’s father Todd as a small town pastor whose theological education is quite limited (a BA in Theology), and so offers an ideal way to “test the spirits”.

100-1 – though rightly offering the Biblical detail that Jesus sat at God’s right hand, Colton offers the non-Biblical detail that Gabriel sits at God’s left. However, in reality, this would be a serious violation of the protocols of honor and hierarchy, and difficult to explain barring an overhaul of theology as we know it. Gabriel being seated at God’s left would amount to just about making him a co-ruler with God and His rough equal. If any ought be seated on God’s left, it is the Spirit. (Good thing Colton did not say it was Michael, or the JWs would have to rework their whole christology!)

133 – highly problematic for me as a preterist, Colton sees Satan running around free.

67 – However, the detail that ultimately invalidates Colton’s experiences irrevocably is that he describes seeing the wounds of Jesus’ crucifixion. Apart from questions of whether the wounds were indeed present after the Resurrection (the showing of the hands and feet is better related to the social concept of hands and feet as “zones of interaction” validating Jesus’ physical presence), Colton places then in Jesus’ palms and the middle of his feet – whereas genuine crucifixion victims had nails driven into their wrists and heel. Ironically, Todd Burpo does not believe his son ever saw a crucifix, and says, “We know where the nails were driven when Jesus was crucified” – but with this, he unwittingly shows that Colton’s vision of a wounded Jesus did come from some more modern image, because the fact is, he and Colton do NOT know where the nails went.

144 --Just as damning is the fact that Colton identified Jesus with a portrait done by Akiane Kramarik, who was also a very young child who claimed an NDE and a heavenly visit. While Todd Burpo sees in this an amazing validation, a look at Kramarik’s portrait shows it to be the white, Anglo-Saxon Jesus of modern, Western culture – a being that would have been recognized as a foreigner in first century Jewish Palestine.

Sadly, there is more at stake here than a child’s winsome but wayward tale of heavenly experiences. There is not much theology in this book, but what little there is, is highly questionable (such as a poor theology of prayer s a gumball machine, 109). Far worse, however, is that this book will draw us much further into the trap that is emotional and experiential authentication and away from support for our loyalty (faith) in evidence. Having been a #1 New York Times bestseller, the success of this book is more a tragedy than something to be celebrated."

Harvey





This is for you "Resurrection" Don.
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