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what do you think? (Read 9790 times)
mac
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what do you think?
Dec 13th, 2017 at 11:49pm
 
May I ask contributors to AK’s forum pages to offer their thoughts and reactions to the following conversation?

assertion:“Time does not objectively exist, which means that anything that ever exists, always exists.”

question: “Does that mean that every event that happened is happening now and can be experienced again if I wanted to? “

response: "Wouldn't it be more the following?"

IF every event that happened is happening now then you would be - you are right now - in a state of still experiencing those events - somewhen. Because you participated in them (at a point we mistakenly see as the past) then by definition you are participating in them right at this point, a point we mis-classify as now.

If so, what does all that really mean in 'real-life' terms? Does the term 'real life' even mean anything anyway? And if it is so, what meaning can it have for what we've termed 'spiritual progression'? Progression implies moving from one state of progress to another point. We think of it occurring in linear time. If, as was suggested, "...time does not objectively exist, which means that anything that ever exists, always exists." it must mean we've always existed hence are always fully spiritually progressed.

I can buy that.....

If any of the above is anything like right then perhaps all we're here for is to experience how it feels when consciously we are unaware of the true situation? If that were the case changing the dynamic of ignorance vs. knowledge about that situation would change the experience we’d get.

Would that matter, I wonder? Perhaps the dynamic has always been changing and will eventually be reversed compared with how it currently is? Enlightenment for all or most, the minority not knowing, the majority aware?

Maybe that's the illusion versus the reality of life; what 'all this' is really about?

But why would that be? Perhaps more significantly is the question “Does there have to be a 'why'?” Asking 'why' is what we do when we're in a state of ignorance. There doesn't necessarily have to be a 'why' concerning life, death et al.

No reason; it just is what it is.....  Undecided
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Vicky
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #1 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:10am
 
I don’t know how to answer because I’m not really sure what you’re talking about.  Do you mean like multiverse theory?

Can you explain what you mean about the “now” stuff?  What I know about “now” is that the physical dimension we live in is a very slow vibration and a place where we use the concept of time to understand our experience while we’re here.  Higher vibrating dimensions have a much different feel about time and now, but while there we can easily hold both frameworks side by side and understand how they affect each other.  I think (believe) there are parts of “me” in other dimensions (realities) which have an effect on me here now and I think I have an effect on them as well.  Together combined we make up my total being. 

I’m not sure if I’m understanding your question, but I would like to be able to access any point in time or any experience I’ve already had and then re-experience it.  I always wish that I could completely recall and relive great experiences, memories, or conversations and all the thoughts, feelings, and emotions that went with them. 


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Re: what do you think?
Reply #2 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 12:19pm
 
Mac ...

I agree with Vicky. I am not quite following either.

Delineated time is a 3D (physical) feature or limitation. It is only perceived because of our physical apparatus (body).
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Lights of Love
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #3 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm
 
Quote:
assertion:“Time does not objectively exist, which means that anything that ever exists, always exists.
“Does that mean that every event that happened is happening now and can be experienced again if I wanted to? “


Mac, I'm not exactly sure of what you're asking either, but I'll offer my view on this subject.

Time is intrinsic to our source. (God, creator, source, the One, or whatever name that fits your belief system.)  Without time evolution could not exist.  Evolution requires change.  Primordial time began when source first noticed a change in states of consciousness and was able to switch between these states consciousness.

Here in the ELS, time moves forward because of our physics.  Time in the astral realm can be very different depending on the laws that govern various worlds/realities that exist within the astral realm.  There are many.  In some of these worlds, time can seem non-existent, in others time can seem to go either forward or backward.  It all depends on the belief system of the beings that exist within a particular realm of energy consciousness.  However, from a fundamental perspective, time does necessarily exist even though it's basis of recognition varies according to the energy consciousness of a particular realm, as well as the energy consciousness of the beings that live in that particular reality.

For us, the point of power is in the present moment.  The past is gone, and the future is not yet here.  It is the choices we make, and actions we take that create our future.  It is the memory of events that have occurred in our past that "mark" time for us.  Usually the marking of time occurs with events that were significant to us.
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mac
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #4 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:49pm
 
Vicky wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:10am:
I don’t know how to answer because I’m not really sure what you’re talking about.  Do you mean like multiverse theory?


No, that's a different issue I believe

Vicky wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:10am:
Can you explain what you mean about the “now” stuff?  What I know about “now” is that the physical dimension we live in is a very slow vibration and a place where we use the concept of time to understand our experience while we’re here.  Higher vibrating dimensions have a much different feel about time and now, but while there we can easily hold both frameworks side by side and understand how they affect each other.  I think (believe) there are parts of “me” in other dimensions (realities) which have an effect on me here now and I think I have an effect on them as well.  Together combined we make up my total being. 


I can try to clarify what was meant by "now" but it's a contextual matter - the whole context needs to be considered.  The premise was that there is no objective time and that everything happens in the same time ie past, present and future (as we humans experience things) are simply all the same.  Put mode crudely no past, no present, no future as separate time zones.  A questioner then asked if he could do again things he'd done in the past but if there's no past, no present, no future he would always be doing those things.

Vicky wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:10am:
I’m not sure if I’m understanding your question, but I would like to be able to access any point in time or any experience I’ve already had and then re-experience it.  I always wish that I could completely recall and relive great experiences, memories, or conversations and all the thoughts, feelings, and emotions that went with them. 


That's similar to what was asked.  If time doesn't exist, if all that has ever happened is happening still, then somewhen you're doing that.  Remove the physical constraints that shackle us to the notions of time and who knows what can be experienced again?
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mac
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #5 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 5:39pm
 
Lights of Love wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
assertion:“Time does not objectively exist, which means that anything that ever exists, always exists.
“Does that mean that every event that happened is happening now and can be experienced again if I wanted to? “


Lights of Love wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
Mac, I'm not exactly sure of what you're asking either, but I'll offer my view on this subject.


It wasn't I who was asking and this whole thing was part of a longer conversation.

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
Time is intrinsic to our source. (God, creator, source, the One, or whatever name that fits your belief system.)  Without time evolution could not exist.  Evolution requires change.  Primordial time began when source first noticed a change in states of consciousness and was able to switch between these states consciousness.


That certainly appears to be the case for our physical dimension.  Quite whether time appeared in the manner you suggest is open to debate but in practical terms we may reasonably accept it as a start point for evolution in this dimension.

Lights of Love wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
Here in the ELS, time moves forward because of our physics.  Time in the astral realm can be very different depending on the laws that govern various worlds/realities that exist within the astral realm.  There are many.  In some of these worlds, time can seem non-existent, in others time can seem to go either forward or backward.  It all depends on the belief system of the beings that exist within a particular realm of energy consciousness.  However, from a fundamental perspective, time does necessarily exist even though it's basis of recognition varies according to the energy consciousness of a particular realm, as well as the energy consciousness of the beings that live in that particular reality.


This is the crux - time is as time is perceived.  Are there any absolute, empirical values?  If not then what appears as time here may be nothing of the sort but can't be 'seen' as 
such until we're outside of its constraints ie not incarnate in this dimension


Lights of Love wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
For us, the point of power is in the present moment.  The past is gone, and the future is not yet here.  It is the choices we make, and actions we take that create our future.  It is the memory of events that have occurred in our past that "mark" time for us.  Usually the marking of time occurs with events that were significant to us.


And this is the way I've always seen matters.  But I'm trying to consider other possibilities, trying to be open-minded while not allowing my open mind to be filled by others' trash.


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mac
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #6 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 5:49pm
 
Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 12:19pm:
Mac ...

I agree with Vicky. I am not quite following either.

Delineated time is a 3D (physical) feature or limitation. It is only perceived because of our physical apparatus (body).


absolutely - it's inseparably connected to this physical dimension (we believe) and our lives within it.  But if we weren't living here to experience its effects, would time still exist here?  (Does a tree falling in a forest make a sound if no one is there to hear?)

Whatever your answer, how would you know?   Wink
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #7 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 7:09pm
 
mac wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 5:49pm:
[quote author=183E293F272E141F392A3D2E272E394B0 link=1513223360/2#2 date=1513268394]Mac ...

absolutely - it's inseparably connected to this physical dimension (we believe) and our lives within it.  But if we weren't living here to experience its effects, would time still exist here?  (Does a tree falling in a forest make a sound if no one is there to hear?)

Whatever your answer, how would you know?   Wink


Mac ...

I realize you think that you are being clever by presenting what "you believe" is an impossible question to answer, but my own experience is that I (and humans in general) can know about the physical and non-physical. It is all one thing (e.g., the All-D); only our conscious focus changes.

I can know from my own physical and non-physical experience(s). I have had non-physical experiences which specifically transcend physical time, and required contributions from each. For example, to get as answer (which I was seeking) about someone, I was eventually given a non-physical vision of a future experience with this person and a second person who I did NOT know at all but was with them (e.g., while my body or physical apparatus was asleep and resting). A month later, the complimenting physical experience happened (unplanned and unexpected) at a restaurant that I did not intend to be at on that day. We had originally planned to be there the day before to celebrate a family member's birthday, but we decided it would be best if we waited one day. I did not know where this vision would take place (or if it would). I had not seen this person in many years, and the second person with them was the exact person I had been shown in my vision. So, it was completely random, and the single factor that predicted it was a non-physical experience after asked (the sky) about this person.

So, that's how I know that delineated, 3D time can be transcended (e.g., from a non-physical experience). It's also how I know that there can be no time or altered time, when I am in a state of being "beyond my physical body".

Finally, "I present no trash" (e.g., your implied words above for the experiences of others). I present my experience, and I did so in response to you asking for help.
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mac
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #8 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:05am
 
wow you're tetchy!  Something hit a raw nerve? 

So you realize I'm being clever do you?  Well I see you're being provocative and unpleasant!  What I presented was an extract from a conversation also involving others' input.  I thought it might be an interesting challenge for our intellect.  Guess you're not used to anyone challenging yours!  I'm not gonna waste my time reading what you wrote. 

As for "Finally, "I present no trash" (e.g., your implied words above for the experiences of others). I present my experience, and I did so in response to you asking for help."

I didn't ask for your help but my words did not imply your experience or others here are trash.  I try not to let my open mind get filled by others' trash.  When it ain't trash then it don't apply but I've been round this scene for several decades and during that time I have encountered folk whose ideas were but I listened to them. 

Maybe you're new to forums but if not maybe you've been lucky the individuals you've met have all provided gems.  Be thankful if that's the case.

What was said is as follows:
"For us, the point of power is in the present moment.  The past is gone, and the future is not yet here.  It is the choices we make, and actions we take that create our future.  It is the memory of events that have occurred in our past that "mark" time for us.  Usually the marking of time occurs with events that were significant to us."

To which I responded:
"And this is the way I've always seen matters.  But I'm trying to consider other possibilities, trying to be open-minded" while not allowing my open mind to be filled by others' trash.
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #9 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:46am
 
Quote:
I can know from my own physical and non-physical experience(s). I have had non-physical experiences which specifically transcend physical time, and required contributions from each. For example, to get as answer (which I was seeking) about someone, I was eventually given a non-physical vision of a future experience with this person and a second person who I did NOT know at all but was with them (e.g., while my body or physical apparatus was asleep and resting). A month later, the complimenting physical experience happened (unplanned and unexpected) at a restaurant that I did not intend to be at on that day. We had originally planned to be there the day before to celebrate a family member's birthday, but we decided it would be best if we waited one day. I did not know where this vision would take place (or if it would). I had not seen this person in many years, and the second person with them was the exact person I had been shown in my vision. So, it was completely random, and the single factor that predicted it was a non-physical experience after asked (the sky) about this person.



Subtle Traveler,

The experience you describe is very similar to something that happened to me many years ago!!

When I had mine the physical event took place about 2 hours after I received it.  I wanted to get in touch with someone but hadn’t been able to.  I decided to try using my psychic ability.  I laid down on my bed, closed my eyes, and focused my thoughts on wanting to know where she was and when I could see her.  I got a clairvoyant vision of actually seeing and feeling as if I were sitting in a chair at the Tattered Cover Bookstore.  In this vision, I saw her and a friend of hers (I didn’t know her) walk towards me without seeing me.  I said my friend’s name and she looked up right at me.  She got a startled expression, said she had to go, then grabbed her friend and hurried away.  This vision was so real.  I actually felt like I was actually there. 

I had no idea when this event was supposed to take place.  And I didn’t have any plans or intention of going to the bookstore.  But I asked my husband if he’d like to go to the bookstore and he said he would, so we did.  I wasn’t sure where in the bookstore exactly the event was in my vision, so I just went to my favorite section and began looking at books.  At one point I looked up and glanced around and I saw the same chair and location that I’d seen in my vision, so I walked over there and sat down.  About ten seconds later my friend walked around a corner just like I’d seen in my vision, and her friend was with her just like I’d seen in my vision.  And just like in my vision, I said her name, she looked at me startled, said she had to go, then grabbed her friend’s arm and walked away. 

So, none of this makes a whole lot of sense to me.  I had no prior intention of going to the bookstore, so how was it possible for me to see a vision of a future event with me in it, when I only went there because of the vision?  Meaning, if I had not had the vision then I wouldn’t have gone there. 

And why was she startled?  And, I was only sitting in that particular chair because it was the one in my vision.  It wasn’t for any other reason. 

Even if I had not had the vision, I had decided to go to the bookstore that evening, why would I just happen to be sitting in that particular chair?  It was a section of the bookstore that didn’t interest me, so I know for a fact I wouldn’t have been looking in that section and just randomly sitting there. 

The whole thing was just so bizarre! 

Vicky
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #10 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 12:59pm
 
Thanks for sharing (and relating), Vicky.  Smiley

I was shocked a bit by my initial experience also. How could this happen? However, it was a beginning for dismantling my physical perspective and moving towards an "All-D" perspective. Less than a year later, I had my first OBE.

I did not expand upon that above, as I did not want to distract from the question presented (which started this thread). I do so now in response to your experience.

Overall, coming here to the AK forum appears to be a new process for me. This morning one of those supporting me (e.g., I sense that she is my primary guide or life time which I expand from) showed up. When I first met her in an early OBE, I eventually named her "Courage". She liked the name. Well, she was standing in my room upon my awakening this morning. I had just finishing flying through some hypnopompic imagery (across a desert lake) as I was awakening and dreaming many times (back and forth). Sometimes, if I get into a zone in the early morning, I will "milk it" to see how many mini-experiences come forth.

She was standing at the end of my bed and to the right. I had not seen her in a while. It was really good to see her. And, I sense now an understanding of why she showed up this morning to remind me.

Thanks again for sharing your own experience.
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #11 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:05pm
 
Hi Vicky-

You said  "About ten seconds later my friend walked around a corner just like I’d seen in my vision, and her friend was with her just like I’d seen in my vision.  And just like in my vision, I said her name, she looked at me startled, said she had to go, then grabbed her friend’s arm and walked away."

The obvious question is, did you talk to your friend afterwards?   I'm curious to know her explanation as to her strange behavior.

R
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #12 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:20pm
 
rondele wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:05pm:
Hi Vicky-

You said  "About ten seconds later my friend walked around a corner just like I’d seen in my vision, and her friend was with her just like I’d seen in my vision.  And just like in my vision, I said her name, she looked at me startled, said she had to go, then grabbed her friend’s arm and walked away."

The obvious question is, did you talk to your friend afterwards?   I'm curious to know her explanation as to her strange behavior.

R


Hey Roger!  You know, I wish that I had gotten the chance to talk to her, but I never did.  She hadn't been returning my calls or emails which is what led me to experiment in contacting her psychically.  I assumed that she really didn't want to have anything to do with me, and that that's why she had the startled look on her face when she saw me.  Maybe she was hoping she'd never see me again??  I wish I knew. 

Back then it was kind of the early days for me about all this stuff, so I didn't seek out as much in the way of answers as I would nowadays.  And back then we didn't have cell phones or Internet, so there wasn't as many ways to keep in touch or track a person down like we can now. 

Thanks for asking.  Believe me, I have always wished I knew what she was thinking.  Plus, I sure would like to know how that kind of experience is possible.  To be shown a future event that only took place because I saw the vision??  Pretty bizarre, right!
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #13 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm
 
mac wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:05am:
wow you're tetchy!  Something hit a raw nerve? 



Actually, no. I feel calm.

You asked for help, Mac, on a forum that has many members with varying non-physical experiences. You then had three people here responding to your request with the same feedback - "what you are suggesting about time is not clear to us". Each person also offered non-physical or all-D examples of their time / non-time experiences. Things that they had personally learned from experience. And, in direct response to my experience, you held forth that I could not possibly know the difference between time and non-time settings.

Here is the problem, Mac. When asking for help from others, "trash" is not a helpful metaphor to describe their experiences - in any context. It is insensitive and implies that the experiences of others are "less than". It also engenders an underlying defensive attitude (in you) towards the experiences of others. I wanted you to be more aware of that.
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mac
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Re: what do you think?
Reply #14 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 3:39pm
 
Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
mac wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:05am:
wow you're tetchy!  Something hit a raw nerve? 



Actually, no. I feel calm.


Glad to hear it but it wasn't the way your response came over earlier....

Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
You asked for help, Mac,


You misunderstood my intent.

Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
on a forum that has many members with varying non-physical experiences.


And your point is?


Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
You then had three people here responding to your request with the same feedback - "what you are suggesting about time is not clear to us".


That wasn't a surprise - the subject takes some thinking about and I didn't want to lead anybody...



Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
Each person also offered non-physical or all-D examples of their time / non-time experiences. Things that they had personally learned from experience.


agreed

Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
And, in direct response to my experience, you held forth that I could not possibly know the difference between time and non-time settings.


I disagree.  Show me where I did what you've claimed and you will have made your point - then I'll agree you're right and I'm wrong - OK?

Subtle Traveler wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
Here is the problem, Mac. When asking for help from others, "trash" is not a helpful metaphor to describe their experiences - in any context. It is insensitive and implies that the experiences of others are "less than". It also engenders an underlying defensive attitude (in you) towards the experiences of others. I wanted you to be more aware of that.


I disagree.  I see the problem being that you BELIEVED I was asking for help when actually it was an invitation to join a conversation....  If anything the defensive attitude was your own but the reality was you chose to respond to a reply I'd made to another member's posting.
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