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Validity of imagination method (Read 31358 times)
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #15 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 10:14pm
 
Well I don't know if anything is directed at me, but I'm not singing praises or making a shrine, although I've been accused of taking his side too much.  But I only speak from my own experience, and that's why I support Bruce's work and want to pass it on.  I always say, try it yourself and see if it works for you.  It doesn't work for everyone. 

My reason for replying to 1796's quote was because of my wanting to correct some of the assumptions he seemed to make.  And by CB I'm assuming you mean 1796?  Is he going by CB now?  Anyway, I interpreted his statements about Bruce's method as being something more than what it is intended to be, so I felt I was doing a service to Bruce by explaining in detail what his method is intended to be for and why it works.

Like I said, 1796's quote seemed to be taking sides with someone/something else to which I wasn't sure...which is why I asked what 1796 was referring to.  Is he referring to OBEs?  We all know that Bruce doesn't teach OBEs.  And if that's a comparison that some people make...asking "Isn't exploring via OBE more of a valid, true, truthful way to explore than just Bruce's imagination method?" then I qualify as saying no, one is not better than the other.  They are both just means of perception.  Some people can OBE very well, some can't.  This is why Bruce came up with his way of teaching a simple way to get you focused "there".

I have heard from Bruce himself that he doesn't want me literally trying to make people believe that his methods will result in an OBE, and I've told him that's not my intention.  But, his methods have worked for me in producing OBEs.  Maybe that's just me, who knows.  Maybe it's not something that works that way for everyone.

And... maybe that's not even what 1796 was comparing Bruce's method to. 
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #16 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 11:14pm
 
Albert,

The best discussions come when people present differing points of view/perspectives and people learn from each other.  Kathy's post does not at all seem to me to be negative toward Bruce's methods.  You are doggedly trying to drive people off this site who have no other objective other than to join the conversation. 
First Don, Roger, and Dude.  Now Kathy, Uno, 1796.  At the risk of being next, I must now weigh in or my conscious won't let me sleep well.

For me, the site was the most enjoyable when a spirited discussion could be had when we could all learn from each other.  No need to take offense if a position went against your own, since it was all a matter of sharing and perspective.  Were there various camps and factions?  Sure  But that can be healthy. 

Bruce's imagination method combined with setting intent is a powerful way for many people to get results.  The idea that one can't discuss the pros and cons of the method without being labeled sinister partisan, and being asked to leave is, well, narrow minded.  I won't sit by and watch that happen.

Albert, I'm asking you as a long time fair minded contributor to the forum to stop making this personal.  The net effect has been to remove points of view that are different and thereby harm the discussion (from my point of view). 

Vicky, I like the idea of trying the imagination method and people exploring on their own.  I hope, on a personal level, you can read through the replies here and see that there is something very wrong going on.  Rather than banning people, let me suggest something different.

Let the discussions address the topics and be calm enough to know that we can engage in discussion without having to "be right" or win anything.  I was
saddened by Don's removal from the board, as I thought it was not deserved. Judging from the replies on this thread, I think it fair to say that removing people with different views is not the way to go; rather stick to the issues, give no offense (and take no offense) and don't make it personal.

Matthew
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #17 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:23am
 
DocM wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 11:14pm:
Albert,

The best discussions come when people present differing points of view/perspectives and people learn from each other.  Kathy's post does not at all seem to me to be negative toward Bruce's methods.  You are doggedly trying to drive people off this site who have no other objective other than to join the conversation. 
First Don, Roger, and Dude.  Now Kathy, Uno, 1796.  At the risk of being next, I must now weigh in or my conscious won't let me sleep well.

For me, the site was the most enjoyable when a spirited discussion could be had when we could all learn from each other.  No need to take offense if a position went against your own, since it was all a matter of sharing and perspective.  Were there various camps and factions?  Sure  But that can be healthy. 

Bruce's imagination method combined with setting intent is a powerful way for many people to get results.  The idea that one can't discuss the pros and cons of the method without being labeled sinister partisan, and being asked to leave is, well, narrow minded.  I won't sit by and watch that happen.

Albert, I'm asking you as a long time fair minded contributor to the forum to stop making this personal.  The net effect has been to remove points of view that are different and thereby harm the discussion (from my point of view). 

Vicky, I like the idea of trying the imagination method and people exploring on their own.  I hope, on a personal level, you can read through the replies here and see that there is something very wrong going on.  Rather than banning people, let me suggest something different.

Let the discussions address the topics and be calm enough to know that we can engage in discussion without having to "be right" or win anything.  I was
saddened by Don's removal from the board, as I thought it was not deserved. Judging from the replies on this thread, I think it fair to say that removing people with different views is not the way to go; rather stick to the issues, give no offense (and take no offense) and don't make it personal.

Matthew


I agree about sharing and expressing and discussing without the arguments and making things personal.  Everyone should be more careful with how things are worded because it's easy to get offended.  But a lot of people have been getting away with things far too long.  I'm guessing Bruce just hasn't been able to be moderating much for a while now. 

And I'm sorry that Bruce hasn't been able to help get the new changes in yet.  Things will happen eventually and I hope they help.

I don't want to talk publicly about anyone, but Don's banning was Bruce's decision for his reasons.  I'm not taking sides per se, but the new forum changes were designed by me and will demonstrate how I feel for what I think will clean stuff up around here.

Ok, that's enough off-topic stuff.  If anyone wants to continue talking about this thread topic, let's just discuss our views on this topic and be civil and kind.  As in my response above where I explained my experience and knowledge about Bruce's methods, I said it in the spirit of explaining what it is meant for. 

I may have taken 1796's meaning out of context, and he can correct me if I did...but I just felt that his quote was saying that Bruce's method makes knowing the truth about reality confusing, difficult, and too much work.  I want to show that it's not, that it's a great tool for anyone, especially people who haven't had anything else work for them. 

Have a good night everyone  Smiley
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #18 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:24am
 
Doc:

I understand about being able to share differing viewpoints, but if I see things that don't seem right, I find it hard to keep quiet.

I see 1796 say negative things about liberals and butch lesbians, take pot shots at Justin and I, group himself with people that say negative things about the key viewpoints Bruce wrote about (the Disk viewpoint, PUL, retrievals, the imagination method) and then promote another way of thinking; and then he tries to discredit Bruce's imagination method, and I wonder why he is here.

If somebody other than Justin and myself would've SPOKEN UP and told him to stop saying rude things, perhaps he might've gotten the point, and stopped doing so.

What would you do if he (along with Roger) took potshots at you? Would you speak up for yourself? Would you hope that somebody else would speak up for you?

I don't understand why Justin,  Vicky and myself are the only people who have spoken up for Bruce (and Robert Monroe), when Don says that they were misled by lower dimension beings and that their viewpoints are arrogant and evil, and when Dude says that all New Ageism is Satanic, and that the Disk viewpoint comes from Satan and his demons.

Really? Am I just supposed to act as if nothing is going on.

Perhaps if Don, Dude, Roger and 1796 learned to have some consideration for where they are posting, I wouldn't feel the need to keep speaking up. If somebody kept showing up at my house when they have no interest in me other than discrediting me, promoting another way, and taking pot shots at some of my other guests, I would tell them to leave.

Sometimes in order for civility to exist, you have to deal with the people that don't want to be civil. It isn't okay to keep hanging out at a person's house, if you don't value and appreciate that person.

If I am wrong about anybody on this thread, and you love and appreciate Bruce, I apologize for suggesting differently.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #19 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 1:20am
 
"I agree about sharing and expressing and discussing without the arguments and making things personal.  Everyone should be more careful with how things are worded because it's easy to get offended."

I would like to add that it's easy to take offense and as a result try to shutdown people and topics.

"Have a good night everyone smiley"

Good morning, Vicky.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #20 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 1:40am
 
Personally I do not like the airing out of things out in the open for all to see.  I don't like the arguments and bickering. 

But if what Albert is saying is true, then at the very least there needs to be another way of discussing and expressing viewpoints that don't include strong language and what I call "trigger words" that are going to invoke feelings and reactions that can only lead to defensiveness.  I'm not singling out any person or groups of people by saying that.  I mean it for everyone. 

After bickering has been going on for as long as it has here, it's very easy to fall back into past fired-up emotions and reactions with every conversation.  What happens is that things just get perpetuated rather than worked out.  Sometimes you need to just agree to disagree and stop airing it all out over and over.  And certain words need to stop being used and then defended.  It's one thing to defend your viewpoints, but it's another to use trigger words. 

For instance, the viewpoints shared that included the terms "satanic" and "evil" etc. was flat-out wrong.  It's intention notwithstanding, it was just wrong to say it.  Maybe it could have been said differently or maybe not, but since this particular topic just won't be let go, I'm choosing to say this publicly to you all...Bruce didn't like those statements and he took them as a personal jab at him.  He regretted not having banned those involved when it first happened. 

Since then I've seen so much rehashing of this, and of other bitterness.  Then the arguing just perpetuates.  Nothing is ever solved. 

I think what's best is that certain trigger words aren't used.  Have any of you been in counseling?  That's what they tell you.  Don't use certain words that you know are trigger words. Find another way to communicate what you mean without causing harm and making things worse.

Don too said some things that really hurt Bruce.  No, Bruce doesn't want people bowing down to him, but he also doesn't want to look like a fool.  His life's work should be respected here even if you disagree with him in some way.  It's about respect and choosing better words to say what you want to express.  Of course it's ok to have differences of beliefs and opinions.  But to utilize disparaging words to make your point?  That's not respectful.  We all know this. 

For now, that advice will have to do.  Until we can get some changes made here, please go talk about something else, go do something else. 

If anyone says anymore of these trigger words to make their point and then try to defend their right to have their opinion, I see it as a direct violation of the posting guidelines.  Because the real point is, it's not about not being allowed to have, express, and discuss differing opinions...it's simply about being respectful.  Find a way to express yourself without being disrespectful.

I'd also like the rehashing and airing out to stop, on all threads including off-topic. 

For goodness sake, I hope that is clear-cut enough for everyone. 

PS--If anyone thinks it's not right for me to speak for Bruce, that's my business.  Given the condition of his health, which he has made publicly known, this time right now while he's still here is a time to speak up for him as well as speak for him.   

I'm crying now just writing this.  We all know that Bruce won't physically be here much longer.  So I have a right to speak for him especially when he doesn't feel well enough to speak up for himself.  And I'm not embarrassed about it.  I'd do anything for him.  And I'm just so honored that I get to help keep his site going.  It's why I've been working so hard these last few weeks doing things behind the scenes.  I'm sorry that you've had to be patient, but please continue to be. 

Thank you,
Vicky


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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #21 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 1:47am
 
Vicky:

My heart chakra area is bugging me now. I feel like crying.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #22 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:37am
 
I am not against Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe. They have both done good work, particularly Monroe.

***

We should endeavour to think and communicate in clearly defined terms. Doing so keeps our thinking clear. Socrates taught us that.

So I will define and describe judgement, because that is what this thread is about.

Judgement is the ability to weigh one thing against another. 

That includes weighing items not known to be facts, so judgement has a wider scope than reason which is the ability to weigh up known facts.

Judgement is the ability to discern options, and to assess and compare them one to another, and in accordance with a standard/objective/aim/priority.

Judgement is comparison, comparison done rationally.

Go to google images and do search for “judgement + statue”, and have a look at the symbolic representations of judgement.

...

She will help you understand. See her sword, her blade represents her ability to divide or to dissect, to distinguish or differentiate between one thing and another. See her scales, they represent her ability to weigh things up, one against the other. The sword differentiates one thing from another, the scales compare and weigh.

In some depictions she is blindfolded, to symbolise her not being swayed by appearances or portrayals, but by substance.

***

In his opening post above, Recoverer copied and pasted my comments on Moen’s imagination method from another thread. But he left out my description of the truth method which was in the same post. So a sensible comparison is not being made above. In fact no comparison is being made.

I wrote on both methods in the same post, so if Recoverer had wanted to present a balanced comparison he could easily have do so by copying my whole post.

Recoverer is not exercising rational judgement, he is just having an emotion.

For some people emotion is enough. They don’t need to be right, they only need to feel right, and that is their certainty.

I prefer truth, however it makes me feel.

I will copy my entire post here so that readers can discuss both the methods that I mentioned, can compare and weigh them, the pros and cons of each, in accordance with a standard, whatever the reader’s standard is. Submit them to rational judgement.

1796 wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:20am:
rondele wrote on May 30th, 2017 at 7:10pm:
We can look for ourselves as long as we are aware of not only our own filters (or interpreters as Bruce says) but external influences that can totally throw us off.

Sometimes the evil entities live in our own paranoia. In that sense we really do create our own reality.

R


"our own filters" and "interpreters" are not the best terms for over coming the problem.

Think of them as superimpositions that we place over reality, and which prevent us seeing reality as it is.

These superimpositions consist of our own preferences, likes and dislikes, wants and not-wants, desires for and against.

These superimpositions are like trying to look through pieces of coloured and patterned glass placed upon a clear glass window. They prevent us seeing clearly through the window. They obstruct, colour, distort and prevent our seeing things as they are.

What we need is a clear window of perception, a window of pure transparent glass with no colouring or distortion, so that we can see things as they are, not coloured and not distorted.

Sure, it is good to be aware of our superimpositions, of our own preferences of how we might prefer the truth to be; to be aware of our own likes and dislikes, wants and not-wants, desires for and against, our own irrational aversions and attractions.

But to always be looking for these superimpositions is too much work, too detailed and prone to error and distortion in itself, for it distracts our attention, makes our focus too small in comparison to the wider picture that there is to see. A more overall and blanket approach is required for dealing with such superimpositions.

We need to remove all superimpositions, so that our window of perception is clear - unobstructed, uncoloured and not distorted, so that we see things as they are.

We achieve that with honesty.

Honesty is not a behaviour, it is a condition of mind, soul and perception.

Honesty is the ability to see things as they are.

Speaking things as they are is merely the continuation of honesty, a living out or manifesting of honesty on a material or behavioural level. But honesty itself is in the soul and mind.

Honesty is clarity of mind, and transparency of soul, and hence is clarity of perception. That is why honesty can see things as they are.

And here is the key. Honesty is not acquired through honesty itself, not by valuing honesty, not by trying to cultivate honesty, for honesty, although it is a behavioural practice, its condition in the soul and mind is a result of something else.

The condition of honesty in the soul and mind results from our valuing truth above all else, no matter what truth may be, and no matter whether we know the truth of a issue or not. Before we ever know the truth we value it above all else.

When we value truth above all else, no matter what the truth may be or turn out to be, then right across the field of our perception from left to right, from top to bottom, all around and within, our superimpositions are swept aside, are dissolves, are vaporised, our soul and mind becomes transparent and we become able to see things as they are.

Valuing truth above all else leads to the quality or condition of honesty, which is clarity of vision, which is the ability to see things as they are.

Then, on whatever level we are focused, be it physical, mental or other, and in whatever direction we look, reality is visible, we see things as they are.

Remember, we must have no preferences, except for truth, whatever truth may be. This will give us clarity of vision.

We tend to have a multitude of preferences that are so subtle that they are below our even being conscious of them, and the most subtle preference distorts our view of reality, prevents us seeing things as they are, prevents us seeing truth.

We cannot deal with a multitude of subtle preferences distorting our perception when they are so subtle we do not even know they are there.

But when we value truth above all else, then all our preferences, no matter how subtle they are, through all our likes & dislikes, wants & not-wants, desires this way and that, to all our aversions and attractions no matter how strong they are, are all swept aside and made weak and subservient to our highest value, our first priority, that which we hold most important - Truth. For then our soul and mind is clear, and reality is what we see, for reality is truth, and truth is how things are.

***

Here is Bruce's method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDjRJ5NA2jY

The downside of Bruce's imaginative method is that it does not automatically differentiate between the subconscious and reality. The two are mixed together, and then need sorting out.

Bruce's method relies on a sorting process, as rational and reasonable as that sorting process may be, it still relies on a sorting process to sort reality from subconscious with its myriad of potential images, impressions and all manner of mental and emotional clutter.

Why mix reality with fantasy then try to sort them out again?

This is a world of illusion as it is, comprised of truth and falsity blended together. Surely we want to separate truth and falsity, not blend them further.

If we have lived before birth and continue to live after death, then birth and death are illusions, and everything in between is illusionary too. Then life as we know it is an illusion, and yet life exists, we exist, and existence is reality. So life is illusion and reality strangely mixed together, is truth and falsity blended.

All of our priorities, our values, and what we think is important in this life are all mixed up, the true ones with the false. Our feelings, emotions, and sentiments, every little comfort and preference that pertains to our physical living are all tangled up the true ones with the false, and each one of us must sort it out our self and find the truth amongst the falsity, the reality in the illusion.   

It is already hard enough to separate truth from falsity, reality from fantasy, so why make the puzzle harder by deliberately concocting fantasies within our mind, then looking into those fantasies and hoping to detect some hidden truths.

Why make the puzzle of life even harder than it is by painting pictures on the window of our perception then trying to peer through our painted window to see reality?

That makes no sense to do, except for those who are averse to certain possibilities of truth, who even just in case the view of truth might be what they do not wish to see, they refuse to wipe their window clean and see things as they are. So instead of wiping their window clean they search for truth amongst their painted fantasies.

This imagination method purports to find the truth in fantasy. It is a dabbler's method. Truth is not found in fantasies. Snippets of truth are all we might find there. It might be a useful beginner's step perhaps, a blind alley to explore, to perhaps find some appetising morsels, and then back out of that alley with a wiser understanding of where to look for a greater view of truth.



Truth is reality, reality is truth. Truth stands all around our self, well camouflaged by falsities, and truth is within our self tangled with delusions. But when we value truth above all else, a change takes place within our self, our soul becomes transparent, our mind and perception clear, so we can see clearly as if through clear glass and truth can pass through us, we become a medium for truth, we become truth-full.

We in effect become our own filter, our highest value being truth causes us to automatically separate superimpositions from reality.

Value truth above all else and you will come to see it for yourself.
 
This method requires no sorting through mental-emotional filters and interpretations. It requires no looking for evidence. This method simply clears our vision, and enables us to see things as they are. It is the truest and surest method.

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #23 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:52am
 
When a person uses the imagination method, experiences things that are quite different than what they imagined, and obtain information they can verify later, more than emotion is involved.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #24 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:16pm
 
1796,

I still don't understand what "the truth method" entails.  Can you describe the method without giving all the long talk about definitions and such?
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #25 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:24pm
 
Has Bruce Moen explained other techniques than the one in the video? Imagination used as a visualization tool?

In my teens I remember borrowing a book from the library, can't remember the name, but it contained study techniques I was interested in before starting a new school semester. The book also had several breathing techniques that I tried out, with specific intervals between breathing and pauses. Got bored while doing one exercise and decided to play around with visualization. Saw myself as standing on a diving board high above my body lying down in bed and pictured diving downwards and into the physical eyes. Did this several times with my eyes closed. One time while diving into the eyes, I could suddenly see the black screen (seeing with eyes closed) move and it caught we with such surprise I almost jumped out of bed. Had a lucid dream the same night and think it was the first to my recollection.
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If you claim there is no truth and in the same breath claim that is the truth, you are a leftist.
 
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #26 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:51pm
 
Uno wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:24pm:
Has Bruce Moen explained other techniques than the one in the video? Imagination used as a visualization tool?

In my teens I remember borrowing a book from the library, can't remember the name, but it contained study techniques I was interested in before starting a new school semester. The book also had several breathing techniques that I tried out, with specific intervals between breathing and pauses. Got bored while doing one exercise and decided to play around with visualization. Saw myself as standing on a diving board high above my body lying down in bed and pictured diving downwards and into the physical eyes. Did this several times with my eyes closed. One time while diving into the eyes, I could suddenly see the black screen (seeing with eyes closed) move and it caught we with such surprise I almost jumped out of bed. Had a lucid dream the same night and think it was the first to my recollection.


Specific techniques?  Bruce's Guidebook has lots of tools and techniques which build on each other and are geared toward helping you learn how your nonphysical senses of perception work and why. 

Your diving into the eyes experience sounds neat.  Have you experienced the black screen before?  Was it 3D?  I believe your visualization practice is what led to your lucid dream that very night.  It's very typical that practicing a technique like this becomes a catapult for triggering something else!

There is a lot of useful techniques out there for practicing and strengthening visualization for various uses.  I too like to use them, sometimes just for the fun of it and sometimes I use them for specific purposes.  I find that the more I practice, the more it becomes a second-nature mechanism which can propel me into an amazing experience such as an OBE.

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #27 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 1:55pm
 
Uno, I hope you don't mind me posting your question to CB from the other thread.  I'm interested in his response as well.

Quote:
Re: Is there is other life forms in the universe?
Reply #9 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:57am 
"1796: Value truth above all else and you will come to see it for yourself."

Very good post. But my mind and understanding move slowly, and with a clear but yet abstract concept like this; what do you when you value truth above all else, how do you do it?


Vicky, I agree that trying various techniques and tools can be fun.  They also can help us to focus our attention.  I remember Bruce saying something like, the best tools are the ones that work for you since each of us is a unique person.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #28 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 2:10pm
 
Lights, we share the same interest in this matter. Before responding to you I thought about the question again, and thought about my best friend. She has a sentence tattooed on her arm which says "the truth lies beneath your beliefs". As a person one of her qualities is being honest. I have got a new colleague at work and she is also honest but less tactful, brutally honest.
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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #29 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 2:19pm
 
Lights of Love wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 1:55pm:
Vicky, I agree that trying various techniques and tools can be fun.  They also can help us to focus our attention.  I remember Bruce saying something like, the best tools are the ones that work for you since each of us is a unique person.


I will try just about anything!  I think what goes hand in hand with trying something is that sense of beginner's luck, or dumb luck.  Just diving in without preconceived beliefs or expectations which usually tend to cause blocks.  The point is to be open and to open ourselves up.  Too much analytical thinking is also a barrier. 

Regularly practiced meditation is key in training ourselves for shifting our awareness.  It's another great tool to add to one's repertoire.
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