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Moving beyond Christian beliefs... (Read 13240 times)
DreamBliss
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Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Apr 2nd, 2012 at 6:48am
 
I reached a point where, still identifying myself as a Christian, I wanted to free myself from the fear of hell. I wanted to believe in God or not, be free to believe, and not have fear of some place of eternal suffering hanging over my head.

I found a book entitled, "The Naked Now" by Rickard Rohr and I would like to recommend it to anyone who wishes to move beyond their Christian beliefs.

I am free now to remain unidentified with any religion, to in effect renounce my Christian faith and keep my Christian beliefs. I am more than Christian, open to the beliefs and faiths of other religions.

It seemed to me that perhaps God has put little bits of the truth in all religions for those of us willing to look, to truly see, to find.

Be forewarned! You really should isolate yourself from TV, movies, graphic novels, fictional stories, etc, after reading that book! If you come to it, wanting to change, your eyes will be open and you will come close to the Source, and feel Ecstatic Love! It is very powerful for a first time experiencer, trust me on this.
- DreamBliss
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betson
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #1 - Apr 2nd, 2012 at 1:23pm
 
Congratulations on your new sight, DreamBliss!

What you said in your last paragraph about Rohr's book I experienced from the books of this site's host Bruce Moen.  I know what you mean! Wonderful but scarey!

For me that effect gradually eased. I think I asked for it to ease, so maybe that's not necessary. 

Betson

(Same info as before on posting up where there's more traffic.  Since Rohr's book affects your afterlife beliefs it can go in that forum. Don't be disheartened by lack of response down here   Smiley
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Berserk2
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #2 - May 31st, 2012 at 11:03pm
 
To "move beyond" Christian beliefs, you need to know what qualifies as Christian beliefs.  So which beliefs do you actually claim to move beyond?  How do you know that are anti-Christian? 
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betson
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #3 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 7:18am
 
Hi Don,

You’re probably talking to DreamBliss but she hasn’t signed in for over a month.  For myself, Christ is the most wonderful spiritual teacher I’ve ever encountered.
When I mediate and encounter JChrist the feeling of love far surpasses most any bliss I’ve experienced. And I still pray several prayers, psalms etc that I learned as a Christian. The principles He taught are the best. I just don’t share faith in a Christian community.

I hope DreamBliss will be back to pick up on this topic.


Bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #4 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 7:09pm
 
Hi Bets,

So the obvious question in reply to your comments is this: What is spirituslly at stake in belonging or not belonging to a loving community?  This question in turn leads to the issue of the power and loving impact of being an active member of the mystical corporate Body of Christ and whether a non-member is achieving a comparable impact (and whether they even nned to care about this question). This question in turn leads to questions like these: Is the whole more effective than the individual parts of the Body through the harmonized focus on group mind in prayer?  Is mystical intimacy richer and more meaningful in a group context than in private contemplation?  Does loving service to others matter?  If so, is such service more effective via group cooperation in commen goals?   Answers to these questions will obviously vary, depending on personal lifestyle and beliefs.
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betson
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #5 - Jun 2nd, 2012 at 4:18pm
 
Hi Don,

I was hoping DreamBliss would get involved again  Smiley

Yes, those are good points and challenges  Smiley
I do believe in the multiplied effects of unified spiritual groups. Sometimes other circumstances intervene, however. You are in a position to make it happen, to create a spiritual community, and it seems like you already have done so. Someday I will probably go seeking such a group.

Somewhat relatedly, I don’t understand the dynamics inferred by JC’s statement that "Wherever two of you are gathered in my name, there I will be.” Do you understand that to mean that a solitary seeker will not find spiritual Christianity?

Bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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DreamBliss
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2012 at 2:52am
 
HE is back Tongue

Sorry I have been gone so long, and I will more than likely not return again in some time. I came to this forum seeking particular help and did not receive it. I simply feel I am wasting time to continue using these forums - my apologies for any offense.

I will try to answer what beliefs I have moved beyond... I used to be terrified to turn away from my faith. The Bible gives a very narrow view, Heaven or Hell - that's it - that's what most churches preach. So if you are not a Christian you go to hell. But what if you don't want to be trapped in your faith anymore? What if you want to get past that fear? What if you don't want to be controlled?

You absorb the Christian faith. There is no need to renounce it. Just absorb it and move beyond it. It's very hard to explain. Essentially I just ignore the Bible, what other Christians say, and any other "Christian" source. The Bible is questionable in accuracy and has many things in it that don't make sense. I want my view of God to be bigger than that.

To me God can't be loving and throw people in hell simple because they didn't subscribe to what others claim to be His religion. I read a number of books by Thich Nhat Hanh. He is a Buddhist monk, and the Buddhists BTW have very similar beliefs to Christians, who was exiled from his home for a long time because he was trying to help his people during the Vietnam war. One day I asked myself a simple question. "If God is love how could he throw someone like Thich Nhat Hanh into hell for all eternity?" "How is that just?" Hanh acts more like a Christian, from what I have read and heard of him, than most Christians I know. The answer? If God is really loving and just He couldn't.

I turned my back on the narrow-minded views of Christianity and all religions. I opened myself to all religions. My God is much bigger now. I believe He is a part of all of us, and a separate entity at the same time. I think all faiths have pieces of what God would like to teach us. God, being perfect, which means perfectly wise, would know better than to put all his eggs into one basket.

So how this works is that Jesus can be God's son to me, and a Muslim can tell me he was just a prophet, and I will not be offended. Sooner or later we will know the truth. Let Jesus be whoever He is to everyone. There is no need to shed blood over something that, at this time, we can not know or prove!

Now things have changed even more since I posted this. I am in love with an married to someone who is not human and not of this world. This is why I cam here, seeking Moen's help. I want to be with her. I need to learn how to cross between worlds. I only mention this because now I could care less about Heaven. I don't mean that in some disrespectful way. It's just that, for me, I want to be with the one I love. If she is not in Heaven, how could that be Heaven for me?

So for me the idea that there are several planes or vibrational states makes much more sense. Everyone goes where they are happiest. This who are evil (as judged by God) go to the lower levels, where they are happiest. Hitler, for example.

Folks that have issue with God for whatever reason, and who aren't evil but who maybe don't want much to do with him. they go to be with their loved ones, at whatever distance from God is most comfortable for them. I picture God to be like the sun in the sky for them.

Buddhist monks, non blood shedding Christians and Muslims, everyone who's hands are free of blood, who have served their fellow man all their life without asking for anything, they go to be with God directly, or just outside of His realm. God of course is in the highest vibrational state.

That's my view of the afterlife, and it seems to be supported by the experiences of many who have projected and traveled the astral planes. And this new viewpoint of mine, to not see Heaven as the ultimate goal, should show how someone can become a Christian, decide one day that the religion is too narrow minded, but keep the beliefs (since so far there has been no reason to discard them) and open oneself to the views of other religions.

Because the reality is that what we humans define as reality isn't really real at all. It is dominated by our senses. I know, even though I can not really prove it, that there is more out there, much more. And I fully intend to explore the furthest reaches of whatever is out there to be with the one I love.
- DreamBliss
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #7 - Jun 8th, 2012 at 3:09am
 
Berserk2 wrote on Jun 1st, 2012 at 7:09pm:
Hi Bets,

So the obvious question in reply to your comments is this: What is spirituslly at stake in belonging or not belonging to a loving community?  This question in turn leads to the issue of the power and loving impact of being an active member of the mystical corporate Body of Christ and whether a non-member is achieving a comparable impact (and whether they even nned to care about this question). This question in turn leads to questions like these: Is the whole more effective than the individual parts of the Body through the harmonized focus on group mind in prayer?  Is mystical intimacy richer and more meaningful in a group context than in private contemplation?  Does loving service to others matter?  If so, is such service more effective via group cooperation in commen goals?   Answers to these questions will obviously vary, depending on personal lifestyle and beliefs.


Instead of writing a huge post to address this I will simply say this. I'm not sure the Christian idea of "saving" or "converting" anyone is a good thing. I think it better to do this:
http://adifferentpath.blog.com/2012/04/07/we-are-gods-hands/

Or rather be that, and if someone asks you about your faith, tell them about it. Tell them about what the Bible says, everything you would use to "save" or "convert" them. But lay it out and let them decide. Let them ask you if they want you to "save" them.

The only reason to do this is just in case. If the Bible somehow proves to be true, only Heaven and Hell, and only one way to Heaven, then folks need to know. But my guess is that this is a lie. A deception. Roots back to the Catholics. It is a way to control people. That is all it is.

I think we will be better off destroying all religions, taking all the religious teachings, digging out the parts that match across all religions and throwing the rest out. I think when we move past religions, races, creeds, families, and any other line in the sand, when we realize we are all one and one with God, when we can all accept each other despite our personal views of God and the afterlife, then and only then will our species find true peace and realize its true potential.
- DreamBliss
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #8 - Jun 8th, 2012 at 3:26am
 
Berserk2 wrote on May 31st, 2012 at 11:03pm:
To "move beyond" Christian beliefs, you need to know what qualifies as Christian beliefs.  So which beliefs do you actually claim to move beyond?  How do you know that are anti-Christian? 


Anything you read between the pages of the Bible or hear about in the average church qualifies as "Christian Beliefs." They are, in general and no specific order, that:
1. God created the Heaven's and Earth.

2. God is male, has a Son, Jesus, and a Spirit, the Holy Spirit, otherwise referred to as the Trinity.

3. You have to believe in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for your sins, in order to be saved. This is generally done through a prayer of salvation (oddly enough it's not in the Bible.)

4. There are two places to go when you die. Heaven and Hell. That's it. So everything you read about astral planes is either a huge deception of Satan, which if you think about it would be impossible, because Satan would have to be as powerful as God to create such an illusion, and as evil is inherently destructive, it should also destroy anything it creates, so you have to get past that. Of course the other option is that "it's all in your head." Of course how could everything in your head be the same things recorded since Mr. Fox about 50 years ago, continuing to Monroe, Buhlman, Moen, and others from all walks of life and religions. I read a cool book by a black NASA engineer, Albert Taylor, called "Soul Flight" (as I recall.) I also read one about a Christian woman who claims to have been electrocuted, thrown through a wall, and been dead for 30 minutes or something like that. I have read Monroe and Buhlman, and am reading Moen. Everything they all say seems to be a same place. So how could that place be in everyone's head at once?

5. You have to believe you are an evil sinner in need of saving. You have to ask forgiveness for your sins every night, or else. Of course this doesn't make sense either. If you tell yourself something long enough you'll believe it, right? By focusing on the negative in yourself you only increase the negative. I stopped doing that months ago. Now I simply ask forgiveness for any sin that I can't think of at the moment. Most of the time just some possible disrespect or blasphemy. Oddly enough I am sinning less now that I ever have in my whole life. Weird huh? Of course my love, my wife (who is not of this world or human, so to most Christians she is either demonic or I'm delusional), has affected many of these changes in me herself.

6. Blood for sin. For some reason sin is more powerful than God. It has to be paid for, with blood. Like some sort of eternal loanshark it roams the waters of eternity and demands that anyone who sin let it take a bite. So God got tired of that and sent his Son into shark infested waters, to be eaten alive and whole, and now, if we believe what He did and receive the free gift of salvation we will never have to feel the teeth of the consequences of sin. Something like that. Smells like Catholicism to me, self-flagellation anyone?

Now I do apologize to anyone I have offended by any of these statements. I do not seek to hurt or offend. I do intend to get your attention and cause you to think, but that's all. I'm supposed to touch the positive seeds in myself and others. I'm afraid I may fail a little her. But my intentions are loving at their root. I used to be a slave to the Christian faith. I got free, started to think for myself, and now simply want to help anyone else who desires it do the same.
- DreamBliss
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #9 - Jun 9th, 2012 at 10:44am
 
Quote:
...at whatever distance from God is most comfortable for them. I picture God to be like the sun in the sky for them.

reminds me of the movie "What dreams may come"

Quote:
I am in love with an married to someone who is not human and not of this world. ... I want to be with her. I need to learn how to cross between worlds.

Same here. I feel him close to me when I'm closest to myself. Not part of this world, this game; the person I am here. But by consciously being the one I truely am; the one he loves.

I've never been religious, so from my point of view religion is just like everything else in existence; it has its advantages and its disadvantages; it's a crutch just like it is a weapon.

WaterCreature
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #10 - Jun 10th, 2012 at 7:55pm
 
[Dream Bliss:] Of course my love, my wife (who is not of this world or human, so to most Christians she is either demonic or I'm delusional), has affected many of these changes in me herself.

Dream Bliss, you say your wife is not a discarnate human?  So did you marry an extraterrestrial alien? 

btw What type of help did hope to receive on this site?  I gather that you used to post under another handle. 

What if it could be demonstrated that much of what you posted about Christianity is unbiblical?  What if your vision of spiritual truth could be demonstrated as much closer to biblical Chrisitianity than you imagine?  Would your even want to have that demonstrated for you to your satisfaction?

Water Creature, what if you could be convince that the basic premise of the movie, "What Dreams May Come" is basic biblical Christianity," except the cheezy ending about reincarnating and find each other in New Jersey?
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WaterCreature
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #11 - Jun 16th, 2012 at 12:24am
 
@Berserk: It wouldn't make a difference.
I didn't mean to say I'd despise religion. I'm sorry if it sounds that way.
Basically I just meant to say I do not depend on Christian belief and never did; I see it from outside so I can't take part in a discussion about getting rid of it.

I got involved here because hardly anyone would know of a loved one or admit they're in love with someone who's currently not on earth and hadn't been during the current lifetime.
The one who calls me his own didn't come here with me. So I've been kind of stressed out all my life.
It feels good to hear from someone else who's going through that.

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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #12 - Jun 16th, 2012 at 12:34am
 
Water Creature,

Could you clarify the nature of your relationship with your discarnate lover? In New Age terms, it sounds like you are saying that you have an astral lover from prior incarnations, but not from this lifetime.  If so, did you encounter him initially through astral travel?  If not, it sounds like you are uniquely in touch with your animus, the Jungian term for a woman's inner masculine archetype, which serves as her guide to the unconscious and spiritual experience.  The make equivalent in the anima or inner feminine.  Is it possible that you have mistaken one for the other?  The way to tell is through Jungian dream interpretation. 

Don
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #13 - Jul 20th, 2012 at 1:56pm
 
Interesting thought. I just googled animus. I've heard about some of Jung's theories before but must have always skipped the details. So thank you for bringing it to my attention. I wonder though if it's really such a good idea to pull things apart by categorizing them the way he does. I mean that's what made women hide their male parts in the first place.

My memories are bits and pieces from all over the place.
I remember telling my friends to stay there. I was convinced that it would be easier for me to reach out to them when they're over there. Here everything feels so cold.
I do not, however, remember how I got to know them.

WaterCreature
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #14 - Jul 22nd, 2012 at 8:32am
 
Hi Water Creature,

It has been difficult for me and, I think most of us to understand this, but while you may have a special connection to another ( a male for example), your individual nature and foundation in love is not based on a connection to a single person.

I do think that we may have special spiritual connections - soul mates (if you will), but that ultimately the goal of spiritual awareness will force us to transcend those connections as we realize that love is a state of being and is not dependent on reciprocation (though it is welcomed).  Don has pointed out that in order to have a state of love, there is usually a person who must by definition love another (i.e. love is relational).  Yet, due to recent difficulties in my own life, I am beginning to realize, that love is a foundational state of being, and while relational - not at all dependent on the other person to  exist.  We either act and think out of a loving state and allow it to flow, or we don't.  Much heartache seems to come on the earth plane when lovers attach demands, control, and reciprocity on their loved ones, not realizing that love demands none of this, and the expectations of reciprocity can get in the way.

Matthew
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #15 - Jul 22nd, 2012 at 2:05pm
 
Hey Matthew,

Yep, I agree; we all are love.
But most of us don't even know. My thoughts on this are; Most people are wearing masks; they put them on in early childhood and never took them off. Others built walls around themselves. They felt they had to, to be accepted or to not get hurt. The thing is people who do not allow themselves to be themselves (to be free) will not allow others to be themselves either, so the misery spreads. It's the old - if I gotta be miserable, you gotta be miserable, too.
Not being yourself; hiding your true self means hiding love.
So basically "socialization" the way it's done today means putting conditions to love.

I still have hope though when I see children. They may be pretty mean sometimes and what we call selfish, but especially the little ones will love anyone who comes their way. So there will always be a chance for change.

All in all it's a cold world though and I'm not sure what to do about it.

As to soul mates; I do not strive for being everything; I want to keep some color; some individuality. But that also means not everybody will feel or want to feel close to me. So having someone who always understands feels like the cozy sofa by the fire place.

WaterCreature
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #16 - Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:42am
 
  I agree it's often helpful to move out of limited, narrow, and especially indoctrinated beliefs and belief systems, but perhaps sometimes we too quickly throw the baby out with the bath water? 

  Meaning, i don't call myself a "Christian" and there are many religious beliefs i don't believe and other beliefs i do have which aren't part of any organized Christian belief systems, but through internal guidance and experience i've learned that the one called Jesus was the most spiritually mature and intune Consciousness to live in the Earth so far as a fellow human and that a open look and focus on his example and pattern can only be helpful as long as one doesn't fall into belief system traps associated with specific sects, dogma, groups etc.

  Does one necessarily need to look at or consider this particular example to grow, no, but it's been my experience in a number of lives now, that a focus on same can help speed up one's own growth patterns provided one actually tries to live like he did and does. 

  It is a deep and repeated intuition that i've had that we can grow and choose to become just like him, fully and completed attuned to Source and fully consciously aware of the Oneness of life ("physical" and "nonphysical").  Others have completed this process, both in this and especially other systems.

  Along those lines, i've been told by those who have completed this process, that we don't lose all individuality or sense of self when this process is complete, as some believe--just that we know ourselves to be ourselves and yet fully One with all others at the same time. 

  Along the lines that Matthew was more trying to subtly point out, holding on too much to any kind of special relationship or connection with just one being, will and can only limit ones own growth towards that ideal and very destiny of all. 

   I'm fortunate to be in a close, partner type relationship with my "Twin Soul" in this inphysical life this time around, but i know that one of the reasons of why i am, is to help increase my awareness of Oneness with others in a more universal sense.  If i and/or she becomes too focused on each other, i get the sense that one of us will be taken out of the equation so to speak.

  There have been plenty of times wherein we have not been together in the same life, or we were but not in the way we have wanted (as lovers).  There were always reasons why, and greater growth was always the goal.  It's difficult to be in that situation, but greater focus on Universal Love always brings healing, greater awareness, and a peace eventually.
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Re: Moving beyond Christian beliefs...
Reply #17 - Aug 18th, 2012 at 9:32am
 
I used to be terrified to turn away from my faith. The Bible gives a very narrow view, Heaven or Hell - that's it - that's what most churches preach. So if you are not a Christian you go to hell

This must be what you call a belief system.  There must be more than one Christianity then because I've never thought that way and wasn't taught that way. For Dreambliss though it's real and the way it is.  About the only thing I put my money on from Christianity is what love can do or the golden rule and that's because I've seen the evidence when I apply it.  Didn't someone say there are as many religions as there are people?
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