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dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence (Read 24133 times)
Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #30 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:40pm
 
recoverer:
just forget any preconceptions and feel inward - if you want to know - the inner senses are there - you can recover them Smiley
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #31 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 9:18pm
 
Oliver, just in case anybody has preconceptions about Eckart Tolle:

There was a time in my life when I would've really dug what Tolle has to say. Now that I am more experienced I am able to see that even though he has some good things to say, not everything he says is accurate. Some of it is out of context. Some of it could cause a person to take an extreme approach that isn't productive.

Earlier you wrote that people shouldn't follow authority figures. Tolle refers to himself as enlightened. He speaks of his so-called enlightenment experience. A lot of people end up thinking of supposed enlightened people as if they are infallible. As a result they turn such supposedly enlightened people into authority figures. It is hard to question somebody if one believes that such a person is an infallible authority figure. Some people follow supposed enlightened people blindly just as some people follow doctors blindly. I figure that if one is truly interested in one's spiritual, mental and physical health, one won't follow anybody blindly.

I believe that a wise and responsible person would never present himself as if he is an infallible spiritual teacher because he would understand that if he did the above described kind of trap will probably take place for some people. Many people have given their power away to supposed enlightened people.

Tolle presents himself as if he is an enlightened person, yet he doesn't seem to understand about the above. If he does something such as quote ACIM, some people might assume ACIM is okay because they would assume that he wouldn't refer to ACIM if it isn't legit.

He was interviewed by Andrew Cohen who is one of the most scandalous American Gurus the United States has had. Some people might make the mistake of assuming that Andrew Cohen is trustworthy because they would conclude that an enlightened person wouldn't allow himself to be interviewed by Cohen (for Cohen's magazine) if such a (supposedly) enlightened person didn't believe that Cohen is legit. My feeling is that anybody who has a significant degree of spiritual wisdom wouldn't associate himself with Cohen in such a way. Cohen has been a highly abusive guru. Consider the below links. The books they refer to provide good examples of what it is like to be with an abusive guru.

http://www.themotherofgod.com/

http://www.monkfishpublishing.com/books/enlighten.htm

I agree with Tolle when he says that we need to live in the moment more than we do and to not make our happiness and peace conditional. I've found that the more I've let go of limiting thought patterns the more I've been able to live in my beingness quite naturally. Doing so now feels significantly different than it did years ago. In "The Power of Now" Tolle wrote that there is no point in trying to overcome your fears because they are endless. He said that the only way to overcome fear is to overcome your ego. (I am paraphrasing him because I don't remember his exact words). I believe such an all or nothing approach is a mistake. He might've gotten it from ACIM because it says something similar. The number of fears we have "aren't" endless. I've found that it has been very helpful to overcome some of my fears. If I would've listened to somebody such as Tolle I might not have bothered to deal with specific issues.

If a person isn't careful he (or she) might develop dissociative identity disorder if they follow Tolle's approach in a way that leads to such a result. It is fine to be aware of our spirit selves, but it is a mistake to in some way tell ourselves that we aren't our mind by saying something such as "I am not my mind, I am this presence I feel." The main reason unwanted thoughts appear is because of some underlying psychological condition we haven't taken care of. Such a condition doesn't go away simply by ignoring it and focusing on the now and whatever amount of presence we are able to experience. Eventually we will have to deal with our unwanted thought patterns. The more we do the more we'll be able to abide according to our spirit selves quite naturally.

Some people might say that Tolle doesn't suggest that people do as I described above. I'd say that such people are making a statement that is based on what they have allowed themselves to be aware of. I know of people who have focused their awareness on their presence as much as they could and believe that they have freed themselves from unwanted thought patterns when in fact they haven't. Rather, they have found a way to ignore them and sweep them under the carpet. Eventually the carpet will have to be lifted. Some people get into an all or nothing approach because they don't want to have to deal with their issues. They want a quick fix. They don't want to have to do the work. Below is an example of somebody being influenced by Tolle in the way I just explained.

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,86095

Regarding ego, Tolle takes this is issue to a nondual teaching like extreme and says that there is no such thing as individual being. This isn't true. Our souls are distinct and at one with the oneness at the same time. Until we take responsibility for our issues we won't be able to completely abide with the oneness. The below article delves further into how people can deceive themselves into believing that they don't exist as an individual.

http://nondualityisdualistic.com/articles-2/jeff-foster-advaita-vedanta-and-nond...

I saw a youtube video where a person asked Tolle what happens when we die. He answered that he doesn't know because he hasn't died yet. Some might say that such a response has merit, but if one considers the authority figure factor it could be misleading for some people because they might conclude that if an enlightened person such as Tolle doesn't know what happens after death, then nobody knows. This isn't so because numerous people have had experiences that have given them a fairly good idea of what happens after death. I say "fairly" because people experience death in various ways and it is hard for a living person to know about all of the ways. One thing spirit World experiencers have found is that we can't sweep our psychological issues under the carpet as if they don't have anything to do with us because such issues will play a part in what we experience after we die.

I believe it is a shame that a person who isn't as wise as many people believe has the stature that Tolle has. People who choose to strongly believe according to what he says will be limited accordingly.

On an earlier post I wrote that some people desire to be a guru. If the attached article is true Tolle had this desire. The first few paragraphs are the key paragraphs.

http://www3.telus.net/public/sarlo/Ytolle.htm

Regarding whether in fact he has overcome his ego, a person who claims to know him says this isn't so. Here is a link (the first post).

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,73107




 
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #32 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:08am
 
recoverer:

Can you please overlook the name of the author of the text and just sense what the text says, and try to feel into it with an open mind? I only quoted it because I could not put it better in words and I had just come across the text.
The text speaks of "children", but it can be applied to "grown-up children" as well.

Could you try to envision it, get a sort of intuitive vision of it, feel it, get a feel for it? Open and use your inner senses, they can be trained by using them more often, but without overexertion or strain.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #33 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 2:28pm
 
Oliver:

Going by the Tolle words you presented and other things he has said, it is clear to me that he has read Jiddu Krishnamurti. Years ago I read a lot of Krishnammurti. Such an approach has some value, but goes only so far. I've noticed that even scandalous gurus are able to use such words.

If something troubles us I believe we should look at the underlying issues closely and deal with them as best as we can so they won't continue to trouble us.  If something in our life situation is troubling us we should fix it as best as we can.

I believe we would find that most situations are fixable.  Even if we have something such as an terminal illness we won't have to suffer if we clearly understand that we don't die when our body dies.

If somebody we care for is suffering and there is nothing we can do to fix his (or her) situation, being with suffering and that ego thing isn't the answer. Such an approach won't do anything for the person we care for. We shouldn't wallow in our concern, but certainly we can care. The best we can do is offer whatever support we can and understand that the day will come when the person we care for will no longer have to suffer as he does. 

Say our friend is in a mental hospital dealing with a very troubling psychological condition. I don't believe it would help much to tell him, "be with your suffering." It would be much better to deal with the root problems.

Regarding who the words came from, I don't agree with the approach of not considering the nature of the source of information.  Lots of people can say some things that sound correct. But what is the overall effect of how they influence people.

In a way, a person who tunes into his presence as best as he can while ignoring his underlying issues isn't much different than a person who ignores his issues by taking heroin. Eventually the day will come when he will have to deal with his issues.

It isn't a matter of the "ego" Tolle speaks of coming to an end. Each of us is a soul that has accumulated knowledge and ways of being. Until we fully accept the reality of our existence and deal with our overall way of being in a wise and harmonious manner, we won't find the perfection we seek.
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #34 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 2:19am
 
recoverer:

I also read some books of Jiddu Krishnamurti.
The fact that different authors say similar things doesn't mean necessarily that they have influenced one another.
It could be the case that they observed the same things independently and came to the same conclusions.
I find intellectual reasoning fascinating, but I also recognize its limitations, it can't reach far into the depths, it will always remain outside and look at something from the outside, from a separated viewpoint. Some things can only be explored by immersing in them. We have not only our intellect as a tool that we can use, but also have "inner" senses we can use, these inner senses are normally underdeveloped in our western civilization culture, but they are still there and can be trained, like muscles that have atrophied, they can be built up by using them. Then we have a more versatile and powerful toolbox, with all sorts of tools that we can combine, we have then the intellect and the inner senses and can use them together. With the inner senses we can explore the depths and when we get back to the surface we can use our intellect to shape our discoveries into systematic records that can be useful for communicating our findings to other explorers.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #35 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 1:55pm
 
Oliver:

It seems to me you are saying that I am being intellectual. I believe I am using my discrimination.  When I do so I use my intellect, experience and intuition.
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #36 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 6:24pm
 
recoverer:

Can you - just for the sake of experimentation - leave away intellect and experience for a short while and focus on intuition alone?
No focus on discrimination, but rather get into a deeply relaxed state and let impressions come and go, and just watch without interfering/judging/manipulating the sensations/perceptions.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #37 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:15pm
 
Oliver:

If you have it in mind for me to point my intuition towards Tolle, it says, "not a completely reliable source of information."

I do not believe that intuition can be separated from experience and intellect in the way you suggest. Even if a person uses his intuition to tap into universal mind, universal mind uses its rememberance of what it has experienced and learned and combines this with its ability to consider, reason and think in an intelligent way.

This whole "no mind at all business" comes from gurus who have claimed more wisdom than they have.  They like to diss the mind aspect of being without understanding what it is all about. Sometimes they do so in order to prevent their followers from thoroughly considering what they say. If their followers did so they might find some error in what such gurus say.

Perhaps you are underestimating how much I have looked inward for an answer because you are defining what is possible for me according to preconceptions you picked up while involved with nondual teachings.

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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #38 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:42pm
 
recoverer:

No, nothing special in mind, it's only about the method, I'm scientifically minded, I care about the functionality of methods, and I'm open towards any possible results and outcomes.

Yes, perception can be separated from the memories of the past, more or less, otherwise it would be impossible to learn anything new.

For example, wehen you lay down on a bed or couch and relax deeply by relaxing all the muscles in your body, then after a short while, if you don't fall asleep or are occupied with thinking, the body goes into alpha state, that is the brain waves go into alpha frequencies, and the body feels numb and a bit strange, and the attitude of the brain's mode of thinking has changed, it is no more the linear and discerning mind, but a synchronous sort of mind mode, and you watch instead of create the thoughts, you may get all sorts of impressions, feelings, sensations, images. It has similarity with dream state, but you are half-awake and know that you are not asleep.

It is not about teachings or theories or concepts, it is simply an interesting method.

I acknowledge you and appreciate you and am grateful that you are and that we can communicate here, thank you!
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