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dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence (Read 24185 times)
recoverer
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #15 - Mar 3rd, 2012 at 3:35pm
 
I don't know why, but the edit feature isn't working now, so I ended up quoting myself rather than editing my post.
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #16 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:41am
 
recoverer wrote on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 3:35pm:
I don't know why, but the edit feature isn't working now, so I ended up quoting myself rather than editing my post.

that is because thread started by ex-member, seems to be a software-bug, because if we are allowed to write new posts in the thread, why should we be disallowed to edit our post
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #17 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:06pm
 
i see your point.
i also feel annoyed by people who repeat advaita slogans in mantra-like manner, saying things like "and who does it experience?" in every second sentence.
difficult to communicate with them when getting always useless comments on everything you say.

the teachers who preach non-duality all the time, maybe they feel it to be their mission, and maybe people get attracted to them until they heard enough and got the point and then go on their own ways.

i was for some years attending a guru's satsangs and retreats, and most the time, and more and more, i didn't listen to the talks anymore, i was content to sit in the teacher's presence and feel the "energy field", i would have preferred the teacher not to talk at all, but sit silently in meditation.

i'm not saying that mind and thinking are bad and no-mind and non-thinking good, i like to have both, sometimes i get weary of the thinking and then want stillness and peace, and when i had enough rest in no-mind, then i want action again, or something in me wants to do something creative.

observing my mind and ego and states of consciousness, i noticed that there are different modes, and that not all modes are useful in all conditions.
for example the rational thinking is useful in certain conditions. it is blocking the other modes of consciousness, which is useful for some things, but detrimental for some other things.

your experience of source/awareness (beautiful!), that would also be a mode of consciousness, or of mind, but the word "mind" is over-used for too many different things, and this can lead to lots of misunderstandings.
some people think that "mind" means the "ego-mind's half-conscious conditioned thinking processes", and call it a bad thing.
when regarding "mind" as a personal awareness in the space of consciousness, then it's much different view of the term "mind", much different from that other view.
and then there are many other meanings and connotations.

Sometimes it seems as if language is an invention of the devil. Telepathy would be the direct way of communi(cati)on without all those misunderstandings.
Do you remember in Bruce Moen's and Bob Monroe's books about the extraterrestrian race which is telepathic? It has advantages and disadvantages to be a telepathic race. The advantage is that they can work in group consciousness and have greater power of information processing and awareness. The disadvantages is that they are limited in the range of their experiences, and that might be the reason why we humans here on earth are non-telepathic or semi-telepathic. I think we do have these telepathic possibilities, it is there in the subconscious, and we could activate it if we want, and often we use it unconsciously. Maybe we evolve towards more freedom and individual soverignty and awareness, and then can use more of our potential, and can also work with group consciousness when we want, and use even more modes of consciousness.
I'm a great fan of evolution! Smiley

p.s.: editing works again! Smiley
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #18 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 1:57pm
 
Oliver:

When it comes to the telepathic beings Bruce wrote about, did you read both of the books where Bruce did so? He updated information about them at the end of "Voyage to Curiosity's father." I believe it shows that trying to be integrated when it comes to uniqueness and oneness is a challenge our souls need to master. I believe we have to reach the point where we aren't so caught up in ourselves that we try to push others away.

I'm aware of the neoadvaita thing you wrote of.

Regarding the presence of the teacher you saw, I believe that is a tricky matter to discern. Sometimes people feel their own presence and erronously give their guru credit. Sometimes they feel the presence of the Satsang attendees that are tuning into their being.  Sometimes they feel the love that radiates off of a guru after this love is sent to a guru by his (or her) followers. Sometimes they feel the happiness a guru feels when he gets people to treat him in an adoring way. Sometimes they feel the energy that manifests as their guru turns within to whatever degree he does so.

Regarding this latter point, not all gurus are the same. Some are actually able to experience their beingness. When they do so a person might sense this. However, it is important to point out that just because a person is able to tune into his beingness this doesn't mean that he is integrated and balanced when it comes to the awareness/mind, uniqueness/oneness dichotomies.

I've found that when some people find out about the awareness aspect of being they become so intriqued with it that they feel as if they have to push away the other parts of their being. Eventually they'll find that this isn't so. I don't mean that renunciation doesn't have its place at all.  For example, if we are overly attached to finding happiness in a particular outward way, this could intefere with our ability to find it inwardly.

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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #19 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 4:14am
 
Telepathic beings:
Yes, i read all books of Bruce and also of Bob.
I found that telepathy is the norm, not the exception, and that we still have it, it is due to the separation of awake-consciousness/sub-consciousness that our awake-consciousness can pretend to ignore it or be unaware of it, while still using it subconsciously in communication and other areas.

Gurus:
Good analysis! Yes, that may be so.
There are ego-traps on all levels of so-called spiritual development. There is always opportunity for self-delusion and clinging to phenomena, as long as there are phenomena perceived subjectively. One who tries to get through those pitfalls must be extremely cautious and self-reflective, always doing reality checks and questioning oneself.
It is like a scientific project where we ourselves are the instruments for our scientific research, we fine-tune the instruments and do experiments and observe the results with as little manipulation as we can.
You know of course that thoughts and all sorts of energy movements in consciousness do influence our perceived reality. Even natural scientists like physicists have found that.
So the difficulty is to influence the object of observation as little as possible. When we think and/or have emotions or both together, then we create ripples in the fabric of reality, and those ripples interact with our perception in a sort of feedback-loop, it actually creates what we call reality, and we want to minimize these effects, so we try to minimize our emotional interest in the outcome of our experiments, and at the same time maximize the alertness of our senses.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #20 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 2:05pm
 
Right, we have to look out for ego traps.

Five people from the guru-based group I used to belong to got involved with another guru (the same one). He's quick to tell his disciples that they are enlightened.  He told these five people this is so, they all believed him, and they all became gurus.  I knew 3 of these people fairly well and they were nice people.

Therefore, their becoming gurus wasn't about their being scoundrels. It was more about what they allowed themselves to believe. I believe there is some truth to what they say, but they also say things that aren't true and are out of perspective.

An odd thing about this is that I listened to a radio interview of one of these people (on youtube) and he sounds more like his old guru than his new guru even though he believes his old guru is a fraud.

I'm not certain how much this applies to the above  people, but some people have the desire to become gurus.  If one has such a desire it might influence how one allows oneself to be deceived by one's own mind.


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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #21 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 2:17pm
 
Here's another story.

With the group I used to belong to there was one Satsang that was attended by a man who was a spiritual teacher. At the time he had a small number of followers. He told the guru I used to see that he teaches others even though he isn't enlightened because he likes the love he receives from his followers. The guru I used to see was able to relate to what he said (I wonder why Wink) and told the guy that such an approach will delay his spiritual progress.

After Satsang I ended up speaking to this guy and he was speaking as if he was enlightened. I could tell that this wasn't true at all. He was very assertive. A few years later I saw an adverstisement for his guru-based center. Apparently, he deluded himself to whatever extent was necessary so he could follow his desire to be a guru and receive adoration from his followers.  In a way such an approach isn't any different than people who try to obtain adoration from others by being a pop or rock star.

I suppose that eventually his soul will become bored with such a false approach and seek to find love and self worth in a wiser way.
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #22 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 2:55pm
 
Hey, wow, yes, those are good stories! I also know some similar cases. Have you read the book "After ecstasy the laundry" by Jack Kornfield? He addressed such things there.

I suppose, you know Osho, I knew a woman who was in his community and who was one of a group of individuals whom Osho declared to be enlightened one day, it was simply one of his practical jokes. And another story of him says that there was another guru or self-delusive guru who asked Osho to confirm that he (the other man) was enlightened. I forgot what Osho told him, but later he said that if someone has to ask, then it's a clear sign of not being enlightened, and that being enlightened is similar to being in love. When you are, you know it, because you are.

These false-guru stories look like soap operas, like dramas that people play, and those false gurus attract seekers who are looking for a spiritual authority that they can lean unto, and get trapped as well. So both those false gurus as well as their followers get trapped in the same trap. I don't think they should be pitied, but that it is just an experience on the path, potential for learning, and as we know, the path is long, so no need to rush, and no need to cry over spilled milk or over wasted time.

best! Wink
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #23 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:19pm
 
Oliver:

I haven't read that Jack Kornfeld book.

I know of Osho. About 30 years ago I read 3 of his books when he went by the name Rajneesh. 

I don't believe it is good to speak about gurus just for the sake of gossiping. Sometimes it is useful to consider what some of them do partly so we can determine how legit they are and partly so we can develop a better understanding of the psychological traps that exist.

I believe this World would be a better place and soul evolution would be easier if there weren't so many things that lead souls off track. But I guess the universe can't have free will if you put in place too many restrictions.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #24 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:32am
 
recoverer wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:19pm:
I don't believe it is good to speak about gurus just for the sake of gossiping.

I think one has to bear the repercussions of one's own actions, a principle often called "Karma" (= "action"), meaning taking responsibility for one's actions by taking the consequences, which is inevitable. It wasn't for sake of gossiping although I was making a fun of it, it was for the sake of taking out the seriousness.
I think there is too much respect for authorities in this world. People lose their self-reliability when they depend on authorities. A good example is the medical system in the western culture. I just had another confirming experience with it, had three ribs broken 12 days ago, and my family pressed me to go to hospital so much that I had to give in because it took me too much energy to resist their pressure, energy that I needed for the body's self-healing process. Anyway, the outcome was as expected, the doctors did nothing, it was a waste of time and energy and money, again - again - again!
The worst side effect of it is that one is made to believe more in the external authorities of the medical system than in the insight and wisdom of one's own body, and then loses the inner sense and communication with one's own body.
Same thing in religion and spiritual communities: People rely on external authorities for showing them the way to God, when they could better turn inward and find the immediate direct access.
I can really get upset about it when I think of it! Angry

recoverer wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:19pm:
I believe this World would be a better place and soul evolution would be easier if there weren't so many things that lead souls off track. But I guess the universe can't have free will if you put in place too many restrictions.

I think the many things leading souls off track are necessary aids for the souls' learning process, and so the purpose of them is not to lead them off track, but to enhance their strength to find the track and walk it.
I think free will is a relative and personal experience of a seeming freedom of decision on re-action in situations, not absolutely a true, real, unshakable truth.
In my own experience, I find not much freedom of choice, sometimes I seem to have a freedom of choice, but then it does not seem to matter much what I do, it seems like two paths leading to the same place then.
The more one sees, the less freedom of choice. Imagine you know the shortest way from A to B, and there are longer ways, and you are in a hurry, what are your choices then really? Is there really a choice then?
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #25 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 2:01pm
 
Or to put in another way, a lot of people don't know how to truly think for themselves.

This applies to obtaining medical help. Quite often people have too much of an attitude of following their doctors blindly. There are some doctors that take a holistic approach that considers mind, body and spirit, but there are many that follow the psychological conditioning that Western medicine includes.  They allow themselves to be overly influenced by what the drug companies are selling.

I wonder how Doctors who take a holistic approach are viewed by other doctors. Not to say that western procedures are never called for. For example, I believe there are some occasions when surgery is probably required.  If a person has a heart attack there might not be time to wait for an alternative approach other than heart surgery.

Regarding free will, I believe we always have it, it is just that sometimes people are so caught up in their psychological conditioning that they don't end up using their free will in a wise way.  Or in other words, they lose touch with their free will. Eventually their souls will evolve so they can use their free will fully and wisely.

Regarding the negative things that happen, I'll compare life to a football game.  Quite often football players get injured without it being desired that they get injured. If you want to be involved with the game of life you have to accept the possibility that things will go wrong at times. However, just as you can try to minimize football injuries by having the players wear protective gear, you can try to minimize the pitfalls of the soul development process by dealing with the factors that interfere. 
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Oliver
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #26 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:13pm
 
Regarding the negative things: I want to quote a passage of Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth", a paragraph entitled "Conscious Suffering":
Quote:
If you have young children, give them help, guidance, and protection to the best of your ability, but even more important, give them space - space to be. They come into this world through you, but they are not "yours." The belief "I know what's best for you" may be true when they are very young, but the older they get, the less true it becomes. The more expectations you have of how their life should unfold, the more you are in your mind instead of being present for them. Eventually, they will make mistakes, and they will experience some form of suffering, as all humans do. In fact, they may be mistakes only from your perspective. What to you is a mistake may be exactly be what your children need to do or experience. Give them as much help and guidance as you can, but realize that you may also at times have to allow them to make mistakes, especially as they begin to reach adulthood. At times, you may also have to allow them to suffer. Suffering may come to them out of the blue or it may come as the consequence of their own mistakes.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could spare them from all suffering? No, it wouldn't. They would not evolve as human beings and would remain shallow, identified with the external form of things. Suffering drives you deeper. The paradox is that suffering is caused by identification with form and erodes identification with form. A lot of it is caused by the ego, although eventually suffering destroys the ego - but not until you suffer consciously.
Humanity is destined to go beyond suffering, but not in the way the ego thinks. One of the ego's many erroneous assumptions, one of its many deluded thoughts is "I should not have to suffer." Sometimes the thought gets transferred to someone close to you: "My child should not have to suffer." That thought itself lies at the root of suffering. Suffering has a noble purpose: the evolution of consciousness and the burning up of the ego. The man on the cross is an archetypal image. He is every man and woman. As long as you resist suffering, it is a slow process because the resistance creates more ego to burn up. When you accept suffering, however, there is an acceleration of that process which is brought about by the fact that you suffer consciously. You can accept suffering for yourself, or you can accept it for someone else, such as your child or parent. In the midst of conscious suffering, there is already the transmutation. The fire of suffering becomes the light of consciousness.
The ego says, "I shouldn't have to suffer," and that thought makes you suffer so much more. It is a distortion of the truth, which is always paradoxical. The truth is that you need to say yes to suffering before you can transcend it.

I read it today and find it very beautiful and true.

I want to ask you something: Have you not also felt sometimes that all individuals who seem separate on the outer level are connected on a subconscious level? Like C.G.Jung's concept of a collective subconsciousness.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #27 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:52pm
 
I believe we are all connected. I haven't read enough of Jung to know what his collective unconscious theory is all about.

I agree that children need to be allowed to have some freedom when it comes to decisions and their growth.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #28 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:54pm
 
However, I wouldn't allow a young child to do whatever he or she wants.
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Re: dream of ill intentioned E.T.'s & their influence
Reply #29 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 6:00pm
 
By the way, Eckart Tolle reminds me of Madonna. She can sing, dance and act a little, but her talent level doesn't match her fame. Similarly, Eckart Tolle might have some good things to say, but his wisdom level doesn't match how famous he is. Sometimes marketing is a factor.
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