An after thought to the post I wrote a few minutes ago.

One of the dangers in what people like Sylvester say, is that there is nothing we can do to become enlightened.

Without getting into whether there is such a thing as enlightenment in the way he speaks of it, I believe it is dangerous to believe that there is no form of seeking that helps us grow spiritually, because if there is one thing I found through my experience, it is possible to grow.  We don't do so by trying to negate our existence.  We do so by letting go of the limiting thought patterns that prevent us from living according to love, our higher self, our connection to the light.

I am certain that the light beings I communicate with aren't just some mere emptiness/illusion.  They are souls who have evolved so they can exist in a manner that is very significant and quite wonderful.  Not once have they tried to tell me that I don't exist.  They simply tried to show me how I can live more completely according to love.  They feel one with me without negating me.

Hi Recoverer,
so far, to me (as for every "person") it is an intellectual concept as other concepts are as well. From most spiritual concepts one can extract ways of living to grow spiritually. Sylvester's concept is indeed different as he says you can do nothing to be liberated from the person. He actually says that spiritual search, as well as psychotherapy is very effective, but it will never lead to an end of feeling separated because there is no method a person could use to get the person out of the way from seeing oneness. It's just a good intellectual point I find. I don't know if he's a fraud or not, and I'm not defending him, I just wanted to clarify what he's actually saying.
   His concept certainly stirs up many questions of what the "I", or the person is at all. It's unclear, although it seems to be so natural for everybody. Until you think about it. It's unclear to me as well if it's really possible what he's telling about "his" state.
   I think nobody stops searching because someone says you'll never get what you are searching for through this search. In this regard I'm the same opinion as Sylvester:
The search goes on until it stops. But nobody can make it stop.

Hi Alysia,
I thought of you recently what you would think of Sylvester's "oneness" story, as I remembered you always said that we're all one! (And I even have a bit like a deja-vu now, as I think I dreamt that you would post here in this thread)
   You're right, this is a huge thing we talk about, even when it is probably one the shortest theories of everything there are. It is possible to take some elements from other theories and embed them into Sylvester's theory. I think that's what we're doing anyway, we pick up something here and there and these bits then melt together into our belief system.

Spooky

This is one of those mobius-strip topics that I always end up getting swept away in.  There are people who claim that there is nothing, but it seems that as far as the "nothingness" goes, no one can claim that because it CAN'T be experienced.  If you experience "nothing" YOU are still THERE experiencing it.  "nothingness" would be total unconsciousness, which means you can't experience it, and therefore can't say that it exists at all.  Game over! lol.

As far as there being "one" thing as the ultimate truth - even if, on some level, there is "one" as the ultimate truth, I am still here as me, and *gasp* is that you there being someone else?  That is ALSO an ultimate truth, because it is actually happening right now.  I think that ALL of these levels can possibly exist simultaneously, with none being more valid and true than another.

Those who have experienced oneness with all things in situations such as meditation, out of body, or near death, have still come back to being THEMSELVES, separate and real, to tell us about that state of oneness.  They have perhaps changed or evolved, but they are still here.  Are you an I projections of the same consciousness? Possibly, but I can't say that it's "truth".  Are you and I actually YOU and I? That, I can vouch for.

Peace, friends (and there can be no "friends" without separation - the simple fact that there ARE friends shows that on some level this is "truth".) 

Oh, I most definitely agree that these states are real phenomena.  It's just that I feel that if this IS a real and true state of being, it obviously doesn't have to mean that it is the ONLY real or important state of being.  I don't believe these people are trying to perpetuate a hoax - real or not, I believe they most certainly believe what they've experienced is real.  What I try to keep in mind is that there are hoards of schizophrenics and such who also believe the spiders they see on the wall are real, etc. lol  Just reading Terrence McKenna's experiences with psychedelics and such is really eye opening in terms of what our own brains are capable of producing - experiences we can't even really imagine if we try.  Keeping that in mind, there are phenomena that really can't be explained away so easily - remote viewing, telepathy, verifiable communications, etc.  Just more reasons why I think that being HERE in THIS state is terribly fascinating. 

StarryEyedNoOne:

Excellent points.

Spooky:

Regarding Suzzane Segal, for a number of years she thought she was enlightened, had her supposed enlightenment confirmed by some gurus who are very clearly not what they claim/claimed to be, and eventually found that she had dissociative order due to repressed memories of when she was molested as a child. This is why she experienced a background of fear during the years of her so-called enlightened state.

One day while she was sitting in front of her followers, she moved down to the floor and sat with them, and stated that she was no longer capable of teaching them, because she found herself in a state of mind that was quite disturbing (I don't remember her exact words).

Regarding the gurus who authenticated her supposed enlightenment, one was Poonja (Papaji), a guru from India who claimed to be an enlightened disciple of Ramana Maharshi. Gangaji and Andrew Cohen, supposed enlightened disciples of Papaji, also endorsed Suzzane's supposed enlightened state.

Andrew Cohen's mother Luna Tarlo wrote a book called "Mother of God." She talks about how she was Andrew's disciple for a while.  She felt so graced to have an enlightened son. Eventually she found that her son wasn't the enlightened being he claimed to be. If anything, he was quite insidious.  He used to verbally and emotionally abuse her and his other followers.

Andrew Cohen was the first disciple Papaji declared to be enlightened. When Luna was in India she traveled around with Andrew and another lady.  Andrew told Luna and the other lady that they are enlightened. Neither of them could see that this was true. When Luna met Papaji, he also told her that she's enlightened. There was a European lady visiting Papaji at the time, and he claimed that she was enlightened. She was playing with her child who was an illegitimate child of Papaji. The reason Papaji had so many disciples that became gurus, is because all it took to become one, was to believe him when he told you that you're enlightened, even if your experience tells you a different story. I know a lady who was told by one of Papaji's supposed enlightened disciples that she's enlightened, she knew this wasn't the case, and she didn't take the bait. She has way too much integrity and honesty to do such a thing.

After returning to the United States Andrew Cohen got out of hand, and despite claiming that Andrew was enlightened in various ways, Papaji later claimed that Andrew "wasn't" enlightened. There are a number of other people who have become gurus after Papaji endorsed their so called enlightened state. Gangaji included. Eventually Papaji took back all of the endorsements. He said that he stated that they were enlightened because he wanted to get the leeches off his back.  He said they were supposed to point the way to Lucknow (this is where he lived), not themselves.

Such later statements are nonsense if you consider the letters Papaji exchanged with Andrew Cohen and what he told Luna Tarlo about Andrew and herself.  Papaji has contradicted himself several times when it comes to what enlightenen beings he has supposedly met during his life. None of the versions include Suzzane Segal's name despite what she claims.

Suzzane Segal also got her enlightenment supposedly confirmed by Da Free John (one of just many names he went by). Da Free John was one of the most scandulous gurus who occupied this planet. He claimed to be an Avatar, the World teacher. He claimed that there has never been a master of his level, and there will never be one again. In one of his books from the 80's he claimed that eventually all of the slugs of this World will follow him.  He died recently, and his proclamation was proven to be false. The same is true for his proclamation that he would be resurrected.  He lived on "his" Fiji island (guess where he got the money from) with some of his disciples including a number of his wives that included a former playboy bunny.  He became well know in the 1980's, because some of his disciples left him and let if be known that he forced his disciples to perform all kinds of sexual acts in front of him, regardless of their marital status.  Young attractive ladies had an easier time finding their way to his island than his other disciples.

Or in other words, I'm still waiting for Suzanne Segal's enlightenment to be confirmed.

I am familiar with the terms in the psychiatry manuals (ICD, DSM) called personality disorder, disscociative disorder and whatever. There is no category which fits to Richard Sylvester and Suzanne Segal. In her book, Segal describes her oddyssee from therapist to therapist, and what you say reminds me of those, to her, inacceptable diagnosis. She even said at the beginning of her book, that exactly this would happen: The pathologisation of "her" experience.

I really don't care for any guru's "verification" of enlightenment. I have read Suzanne Segal's book and it came over to me like a description of what she had experienced. Whether this "state" has to be called "enlightenment" or not I don't know. But what I do know is, we have to take it seriously. This book, to me, sounds as authentical as, for example, Monroe's books do. Despite the logical errors she made in the last part of her book. And as I wrote in respond to Starry, this kind of experience seems to be not a singular one, but perhaps inspired religions and spiritual movements. So we have to deal with this kind of experience.

If you have reliable infos about Suzanne Segal which go beyond her book you might post them here and name the sources, or PM me.

Spooky

Spooky:

If one thing is clear, she experienced a backdrop of fear for years. What does fear have to do with love and oneness? I'm not able to find all of the articles that spoke of her condition, but below is one of them. The Adi Da referred to is another name for Da Free John. The writer seems to believe that non-integration and enlightenment go together. I've found that the more I've grown, the more integrated I've become, yet I don't claim to be enlightened. This business of somebody supposedly being enlightened even though she hasn't dealt with chilhood trauma doesn't add up. If a spirit wants to move onto a higher realm, it needs to be free of the issues that prevent it from living according to love. That's afterlife knowledge 101 . Yet, people who haven't dealt with their issues claim to be enlightened. If thoughts of the vastness, oneness and not being defined inspire you that's great, but integration of the creative aspect of our being is required.

Anyway, here's a part of an article and a link:

"Part 6

Suzanne Segal died of a brain tumor in 1997 at the age of 42. Many have stated explicitly or implicitly that her experiences were directly the result of cerebral trauma. In the spring of 1996, the present book had been completed and Suzanne was offering her teachings to the public through weekly dialogues and a training group for her fellow therapists.

Very soon thereafter, however, she began to experience bouts of 'vastness expansion' in which the vastness would expand greatly upon itself. These experiences sapped her life and energy and brought great fear upon her once again. It brought also doubt. She began to judge what she had been saying or claiming to know. She thought her talk about the vastness was perhaps a defence mechanism to protect her from feelings and childhood abuse memories.

She had lost her connection to the vastness, had become disoriented, experienced dizziness and a general decline in health In February of 1997 she was diagnosed with a massive brain tumor. She died on April 1."

http://www.nonduality.com/suzanne.htm