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Regarding ACIM (Read 9344 times)
recoverer
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #15 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 4:05pm
 
Does the word "cult" apply to something that actually exists, or should the word be taken out of the dictionary?

Why do people talk of getting stuck in belief system realms, if all beliefs are valid?

Why do people speak of patterns of mind that limit people, when all ways of thinking are valid?

Why does the word "discrimination" appear in the dictionary, if there is no need to make use of what is referred to by the word?

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LaffingRain
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #16 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 11:29pm
 
Hi Carolyn I had forgotten you told me once you would look at ACIM. you have a great understanding of it. thanks for you post, great to see you back on board again.

it's interesting about the choose again thing in ACIM. a friend and I are discussing how you can tell between the ego voice and the HS.
it's not easy exactly, but in general, the ego always speaks first. as it wants to feel in control of things. the HS speaks 2nd.
just speaking personally, to share. the ego also will try to get the last word. uhmm. that's probably me.

after working with the material's principles it's easy to tell when the HS is speaking, because it's quieter, softer, never forceful and sometimes it comes as a question rather than an answer right off the top.
then the question, if meditated on yields up it's tail end, the answer, as the question and answer are like one thing in truth.

basically, if you create peace within your own self, this increases the momentum in outer circumstances for a peaceful world, as the numbers of persons choose for the peace idea, by working on their own reactionary stances.
the basis of ACIM is not to make one into a loafer but to help us realize we are not helpless, but the issue rests with the individual, rather outside on all the rest of those people who are doing wrong.

it depends where you focus your thoughts, your mind. If you're looking for dirt, well, that's what this world is made up of, you will find the mind's perceptions will follow your leading beliefs about the world.

seek and you will find is the real message. negative are easy to find. finding the positives is just a tad harder, but once you do, you become a light worker eventually. meaning, you believe in love.

love is the real miracle in ACIM.

that we can create those circumstances in the world by a shift in our thinking first. a focus in the right direction. but it's work, no doubt about it,  no one said living a life was easy.

ACIM will say you will find the message of love and self responsibility in many pathways, but somewhere, someday, somehow, we will all return to love, each in their own time and place.
as well Rondelle, I would assume JC does not mind contradictions to occur as concerning ACIM, as look what happened when he was here in the flesh.
wasn't too nice was it? the ego is vicious. there is no doubt in my mind that the ego is not our true and eternal natures.

It's time, no matter what path you arrive on, it's time to take charge of our own selves by focusing on solutions more than problems which keep us eternally debating the problem itself.
that means we need to realize that we go not alone here. there is a voice we can listen to for guidance. whether it's our oversoul, or we call it guides, or helpers, or Atman, or Holy spirit, it doesn't matter, something is willing to help in the least expected places it can appear, and through any means whatsoever, as varied as our personal experiences are.

we are healing the separation in this time, some quite fast, some quite slow, but it is occurring for those who have eyes to see.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #17 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 11:42pm
 
recoverer wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 4:05pm:
Does the word "cult" apply to something that actually exists, or should the word be taken out of the dictionary?

Why do people talk of getting stuck in belief system realms, if all beliefs are valid?

Why do people speak of patterns of mind that limit people, when all ways of thinking are valid?

Why does the word "discrimination" appear in the dictionary, if there is no need to make use of what is referred to by the word?



first cuddly one, I thought that your post regarding your night in heaven was brilliant. wish you would write it again and again for us here, at least once a week.

not only was it slightly different this time, the description but you mentioned how in another experience you realized that time and space are not the true reality. this is supportive of ACIM, which says time is an illusion, and we think we are here in bodies when we are safe at home. I wonder if anyone relates..have you ever felt like you weren't here? that you were  a million dreamy miles away?

I think that describes an accurate yearning to awaken from a dream and be our true selves once more, free to express love, rather than, no no no! I'm different than you! or separate.

everybody wants to be somebody. what about us that don't want be anybody?  Roll Eyes

because precisely. we are not bodies. in that limited sense.

what's all this about words and dictionaries stuff? I think you just wanted to continue this thread R, and you know how to egg me on don't you? proud of yourself?  Cheesy

take care fidgety one. you are to find all mysteries soon.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #18 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:51am
 
My idea of a cult includes the Catholic Church. I think Catholicism promotes many cult-like attributes.

Here's an example:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/10/13/bid_to_canoni...

Now, I personally don't care if people found hope and inspriation in Audrey's presence. I do believe them when they say they did. I don't think cults are necessarily bad. It is just too bad that these people were not ready to understand that they created those signs by their beliefs. It is something that must happen on a subconcious level because it is so difficult to learn to conciously be part of it.

But I don't think ACIM is any stranger than the Catholic Church is.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 1:23pm
 
recoverer wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 4:05pm:
Does the word "cult" apply to something that actually exists, or should the word be taken out of the dictionary?

Why do people talk of getting stuck in belief system realms, if all beliefs are valid?

Why do people speak of patterns of mind that limit people, when all ways of thinking are valid?

Why does the word "discrimination" appear in the dictionary, if there is no need to make use of what is referred to by the word?



Hi Albert,

Thanks for starting this thread here. I haven’t read ACIM so I can’t comment on it specifically. I do have some thoughts in regards to some of the things mentioned.

According to Webster a cult is a formally organized religion that has devotees. This definition seems to include any and all religions.

All beliefs are valid because all can be defended or justified in one way or another. Truth is subjective and depends on the person’s interpretation.

For example yesterday our family went to a pumpkin patch to spend the day. My granddaughter lost her mother’s camera. My daughter said, “Someone will turn it in.” And that was all she said about it. Her “truth” is that everyone is basically honest and will act in an appropriate manner. Someone else may have gotten upset, perhaps scolding/punishing the child, making a big issue out of it because his or her “truth” is that most people are dishonest and act accordingly.

There is always more than one way to observe something and this is what makes truth relative. btw the camera was turned in just as she believed it would be, thus validating her truth to her as well as to those of us who share the same perspective. Even if the camera had not been turned in, this would not have been enough to change the pattern of her deeper belief that most people are honest. We can only use our discernment according to our own personal beliefs and attitudes.

It’s pretty clear that Alysia views ACIM differently than you do. Each of you has your own truth and both differing truths are valid because of your own experiences and the meaning each of you has given to those experiences. The key here is to respect the other’s perspective rather than trying to convince a person to believe, as you believe. Certainly you can share your perspectives as you’ve done in this thread, which seems to have turned into an interesting conversation.

Kathy
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #20 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 2:29pm
 
Quote:
Does the word "cult" apply to something that actually exists, or should the word be taken out of the dictionary?

Why do people talk of getting stuck in belief system realms, if all beliefs are valid?

Why do people speak of patterns of mind that limit people, when all ways of thinking are valid?

Why does the word "discrimination" appear in the dictionary, if there is no need to make use of what is referred to by the word?



Hi recoverer,

Good food for thought in the above....

As in:
One could also use "discrimination" in the use of their dictionary.

The word "cult" once simply meant sect, branch, group - referring to any particular type of belief system, often a subgroup of a larger body. The negative connotation of the word is a relatively recent development that comes from the demonizing of non-traditional belief systems by individuals and institutions that represent more dominant and/or traditional beliefs. It seems that the individuals, groups, or institutions who are making these negative claims and assertions are deliberately doing so often with the intention of establishing or maintaining their own superiority by the denigration and vilification of those who are targeted as being inferior or wrong by comparison.  

Regarding this contemporary and now fully accepted negative connotation of the definition - any open minded person who observes our society with a modicum of neutrality could easily come to the conclusion that many aspects of our culture in which people relate as a group of any size for any common purpose, could legitimately be defined as a cult, when compared to others who do not have the same values, beliefs, goals, or purpose. Here I am talking about sports, entertainment, pets, finance, food, wine, model trains, golf, etc., etc., and yes of course religion. Is there any group that doesn't appear "wierd", "harmful", "destructive", "distorting" by any number of negative associations based on attributions of cohesion, obsession, diversion from convention and "normality" - especially disparity from the values of the one making the observation and comparison? I may suggest that a very easy way to explore this proposal would be to go to a large bookstore, where even the casual perusal of a large selection of magazines on different subjects will reveal the shocking level of "cultism" in our modern world. You might be amazed at what qualifies as a "cult", even by the strict dictionary definition. Surely this website would also be one of them by someone's interpretation of the standard definition. (Do some people really need to talk about the "afterlife" every day of the week? What kind of obsessive "death-fear" cult is this anyway? Sounds "fanatical" to me....lol)


The dictionary houses many words.
Like life, it is a universe of possibility in which options are presented that have different meanings for different contexts according to individual necessity. The words "bigotry", "fanatic", "intolerance", "fundamentalism", "pride", "negativity", "exclusive", "superiority", and "projection" also appear in the dictionary, but the dictionary itself, according to its intended purpose, neither exacts nor implies any mandate for a particular attitude or orientation in how words are retreived and used -- therefore it would be quite arbitrary "should the word be taken out".

If people open the dictionary to the same few words over and over again according to their particular wants or needs, this would be indicative of some choice making as a function of their personal preference (including the attempted validation of a prejudice), rather than any inherently authoritative power of the dictionary to confer validation to those preferences, even if it does give accepted definitions of the words in question.

Believe it or not, "patterns of mind that limit people" are also valid, even if ACIM and other paths define them as illusion, as they may, and do represent passages that are used temporarily as stepping-stones by human beings - including the more subtle issue of: what was once an expedient may now be a hinderance. We can see this everywhere, even in ourselves - so we don't have to look far or to others to see it. It could even be said that the majority of human life is often represented by this general construct and it could further be seen that the very fact that it is allowed and patiently, compassionately supported and transformed through evolution shows that even so-called negative unproductive thought and behavior, which is quite relatively and subjectively defined in the spiritual sense, is available as a free will choice for individuated beings as possibility, even if these have so-called negative consequences.

Getting "stuck" in belief systems and BST's (whether in physical or non-physical) is something that happens when people mistake the belief system - a mere expedient - for the intended goal itself and/or persist in that attachment even when obsolete or inappropriate, which is according to free will choice - a possibility. This tendency for attachment is not inherent in the specific vehicle itself, but is a function of the intention and subsequent identification with any consciousness toward the fulfillment of the intention. If someone is "stuck", it is because they simply have not chosen the means appropriate to the intention (and there can be many), have not the willingness to enact it, or they have not formulated the appropriate intention according to the situation. It is not the "fault" of any vehicle. It is simply a failure of the individual to assess the situation, to formulate an intention, to select a means of fulfillment, to carry out implementation of the chosen means - any or all in varying degrees are reasons for people getting stuck. This has nothing to do with ACIM.

So in getting back to the original intention of the thread and responding to the above:  to use the dictionary as a means to demonize ACIM as a cult seems to be ineffective, since the impetus for this approach appears to be the result of a personal prejudice, rather than any quality intrinsic to dictionaries or words contained within, in "proving" the falsity (or truth for that matter) of ACIM. It might be true however that ACIM, like a dictionary, is a tool, a vehicle, an expedient for the ordering of life towards the desired fulfillment of some intention according to someone's personal choice to use it. People use the book and its contents. The book is not using, controlling, or manipulating people. People identify with the consciousness they subjectively recognize as having some meaning or utility for their intention. Everyone makes their own choice from limitless possibility at every moment - just like using a dictionary.


- u


PS, as a side note: I have not read ACIM, but I have known a few people who have, including some who
I would regard as fairly genuine seekers of Truth/God (including some here), who have reported that it was significant and helpful in their search or practice. Without personally investigating it, I cannot make a direct comment on it, but I do regard as significant the testimony of others who exhibit a certain level of integrity and authenticity according to my observation of their life or written expression.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #21 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 3:32pm
 
Thank you for the continued input.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #22 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 7:16pm
 
thanks Kathy for the example. Well thought out article Ultra. good summation.

I think that being physical human beings here we enter Earth Life system which is a system of duality. and it is a system of having beliefs, or being attached to beliefs is a misnomer, because everybody has to have some sort of paradigm here, it's inescapable to consider  "being" without believing in something. has to do with our free will.
we even have in political terms the right to free speech, and that also can be a spiritual aspiration.

I like what Ultra says about ACIM, or any path of belief, self chosen, as a tool. or something that expedients growth, or mind expansion, a given direction to go in, and then he says it's like only a step in that person's pattern of growth. I found that to be so true, and all the more reason to be unattached emotionally to our respective pathways we have chosen, because everything passes towards our becoming more than we thought we were yesterday.

I found when I was finished with the material I came to some instruction within it that said "forget this book." Go and seek an experience.

I had become attached to it emotionally and so did not want to take this instruction at first. Yet as I thought about it, it was a good instruction point, to forget it and seek that experience.
In my mind, I was thinking it meant I had to actually practice the principles, to test them for authenticity, as a genuine experience, rather than surface acceptance and that kind of intellectualizing, as if I had all the answers.
I did not know anything really, I simply had a tool, what I call a road sign pointed at a fork in the road, and I chose now, which road to go down, to see if it was true, if I implemented some of what I'd learned, could be true, then again might not be. It means you take a risk and choose.

One of my wonderings at the time was whether a benevolent universe existed, or was it, as I'd been taught a dog eat dog world, and I also believed in Murphys law. that whatever could go wrong will certainly go wrong.

I am not trying to persuade anyone to read ACIM, as part of ACIM's teachings is that everyone has their own individual choice what to do, what to read, etc. it is the nature of a diverse world of diverse people.

I would like to share some few experiences of a personal nature which seem funny, or loving, or added meaning to my life in some way, and directly happened due to my foundational ACIM studies.

before I get off track with the avalanche of words which come in, each with their own secular meanings, I did discover  a benevolent universe operating, through relationships. ACIM had told me that relationships are important. as what else is there? I discovered I needed people, as what else am I going to relate to if not people?

yet also my own life experiences showed me how people pass in and out of our lives, one minute they are here the next they are gone and u can't help but wonder if the love they shared with you has also gone with them. I discovered, with ACIM, that the love is still there, in you, it had never gone away with their physical body, but was stored in the soul somewhere, even like a tool, it could be remembered and then was born gratitude for the hard times as well taking the good along with the not so good. then Monroe comes along with his "there is nothing good, there is nothing bad."
all just is life being.  this explains nonjudgmentalism. this explains the acceptance of love, is there, even if we do not perceive it to our expectations. just because you turn on a fan, and the blades are spinning so fast you cannot define their edges, does not necessarily mean the blades have disappeared and are just not there.

thank u Ultra, for showing me there certainly is life after ACIM, or putting that into well chosen words. as I know in the end, there is so much more in heaven and earth than we can possibly imagine.

and those are not even my words. the first step to wisdom is to say I do not know the thing that I am, or what this relationship is for.
to admit you don't know. that will help us all to learn what truth is and maybe someday we will all entertain the possibility, that it is a benevolent universe after all.
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Re: Regarding ACIM
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 4:20pm
 
  I'm not interested in talking about ACIM anymore.  Most here already know I feel about it, and yeah it would be redundant. 

  But I do want to address this, Recoverer wrote, Quote:
1. The course says that this World wasn't created by God, because everything God creates is perfect.  This can lead people to believe that the World is separate from God. It also leads to the assumption that something other than God exists, because it contends that something other than God created this World.


  This is my understanding of the question or situation.   In the "beginning" was pure Source Consciousness, all by Itself.  It moved within Itself, and created various different aspects of itself with a sense of independence (freewill) from the Whole, yet always One with same in essence (in a sense, smaller circles ever within the largest circle). 

  The hope of Source was that It's Children would choose out of their own volition to become both Companions and Co-Creators with It, and to set up this situation the "opposite" of Sourceness had to be a possibility, not that Source itself "created" the opposite of its nature, but allowed the possible awareness to arise. 

One Spark, did remerge with Source before any other Spark did, and it became the first full and fully Conscious Co-Creator with Source. 

This particular Universe we find ourselves in, is the result of that harmonization/merging/Co-Creation. 

  But originally this Universe, and this Earth existed in a non physical type pattern.   Or in other words, it ALL was on a faster rate of vibration/frequency.  And because of that, it was much more fluid in nature, just as thought is completely fluid in nature.   It was thought, the thought Creation of one Shining Child delighting in working with its Father/Mother.

  The One who Co Created this World and this Universe, decided to get involved with it in a more personal way, along with many of It's other siblings.   

    Some of the Siblings though, decided to try to alter the pre-existing patterns, which seemed ok at first, but it increasingly led to less harmony, and to a desire of SELF creation, over Collective Self Creation. 

  In that, selfishness became known, and then Fear developed because of the ever growing sense of separation that these individuals and groups were feeling from the Whole and each other. 

    The ones involved with Earth, as they forgot more and more of their heritage, and as they further emphasized the little self more and more, their energies, and the energies of their "creations", became slower and slower in vibratory rate.  They became ever more "set" and stuck in nature.

  Eventually to the point where what we now know as "physical" came into existence.   The pattern for it was always there, but in a pure, harmonious, and completely connected manner originally. 

  What we now experience is the illusionary reflection of that original Creation of the Planning Intelligence/Christ working with Source, and it was not Source, nor really the P.I. who created this aspect.   They of course allowed it to come into temporal existence because of their respect of our freewill. 

Since the turning away, the P.I. has been working it's butt off to reorient it's Siblings back to the ways, consciousness, and Beingness of Source and Sourceness.   

  In order for It to do that, it had to become fully involved in the whole drama, and there was an element of risk, of chaos involved, for It knew that there was a possibility of It also losing its way once fully immersed in the cacophony/de harmonization of noise "here". 

  So now He, became subject to what some call reincarnation and the wheel of "life and death", and of temporary forgetfulness, of the limited perceptions of space/time.   But He held strong, more often than not, and lived many lives of helpfulness and service to His Siblings--ever growing back to that full Source Consciousness.   

  His peak, and zenith, saw a personality born, unlike any other seen yet in the Earth, the fastest vibrating human ever to be born, to whom physical death was no barrier, and He blazed the way fully and surely for others to follow.  He created such a powerful ripple in the Quantum field of reality and unreality, that it is now easier for us to achieve, re-remember, and re-become what He is now, and we were once (and really always were...).   

   So the World, IS illusionary, but only part of it, the part that is Temporal and which was created by us who have chosen to forget and fully live the ways of Source.    Eventually enough of us will get our act together, and the vibration of this World will raise enough and reach that peak momentum, and physical aspect and all the inharmony and distorted info, the false reflections that goes along with it, will fall away.

  While that aspect of this World is illusionary, it still serves a very useful purpose though!   It is still necessary at this point in our collective remembrance. 

  It is the very catalyst, along with its suffering nature, to help us want to re-awaken. 

So in the problem, lies the solution.   Beautiful isn't it?  I'm not particularly worried about the whole thing, I think things are more or less working out the right way, and yet to become overly passive in this life is not well either.   Stay positively active, and help the process along as much as we can. 

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