The discussion on ulcers in bruce's post on moving seemed a little off topic but also has me thinking.

Over time there have been different ideas about what causes ulcers. Maybe it is all myth.

What does it mean to say something causes something else? There should be a correlation between cause and effect. At least I think that is what is held by general consensus. But should it be a one-to-one correspondence before we say there is a cause-and -effect relationship?

I don't think there is any one single cause of ulcers. I actually thought the discussion at wilkipedia was a good one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptic_ulcer

We can skip the cases where ulcers are associated with malignant tumors because we just want to talk about the average case.

Stress used to be listed as causes of ulcers but that doesn't make total sense to me because not everyone who is stressed gets an ulcer.Anyway, people treat this like it is a dogma without even knowing where the idea comes from or if it has been fully tested. We humans do this all the time.

They weren't the first to propose a bacterial cause of ulcers, but in the 80's two Australians, Warren and Marshall, showed that ulcers were associated with H. pylori. There is a well-known story of one of these guys drinking the bacteria to prove his point. The data was good, but the medical community was so fixated on the stress hypothesis that they wouldn't pay attention to the bacterial one. The point is to watch the behavior about the evidence. What we are interested in on this board, in part, is trying to deal with dogma of another sort, but this is a human phenomena and we can all learn by seeing what happened in this other incident. We all get stuck in dogma some time or other.

Marshall and Warren got the Nobel in 2005. I think we are going to have to wait a bit longer for anyone in afterlife work to get a Nobel.

A large percentage of ulcers can be treated as a curable infection. They can be treated with antibiotics. Now back to the cause and effect thing. Many people who do not show evidence of ulcers are infected with H. pylori. It is pretty common. So I think it is difficult to say that it is purely causative. However, treating with antibiotics works in alot of cases.

One side note...I looked at the notes (I don't entirely trust all of wikipedia and I wanted to see what sources were used) and found a link to a study done in late 40's. The paper claimed treating ulcers with fresh cabbage juice worked.

Cheney G. Rapid (1949). "Healing of peptic ulcers in patients receiving fresh cabbage juice". Cal Med 70 (10).
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1643665

I have not yet figured out if this report was later refuted. Let's assume it was not. Then here in the late 40's was an alternative treatment that went by the wayside...why? (Not that I would want to drink a liter of cabbage juice every day for a week, but that is better than experiencing pain). Was the report just ignored? You cannot assume medicine works as a true science because so much dogma abounds.

  Hi Lucy, i don't have specific experience with ulcers for myself, but i've been studying more alternative health, diet, etc. for a long while now and have a fair share of personal experience with dis-ease.

For example, Recoverer wrote on the other thread Quote:


  I would say that all the above are potential factors.  What it seems to boil down to is this.   We have many, many, many different kinds of bacterias, yeasts, and various micro organisms in our body of which we know very little about, especially in the sense of how they all work together.   We've isolated a number of them (only a small percentage overall) and have some clue to what some do individually, but not so much in the holistic, Hemi-sync sense.

Some of these are more purely pathogenic and opportunistic in nature, and when the body becomes imbalanced through over stress, non healthy diet, smoking, use of various pharmaceutical drugs, drinking, and/or not enough exercise, etc., certain organisms which normally aren't too harmful to the body because they are kept in check by the more immediately "probiotic" organisms (some which actually feed on the more opportunistic/pathogenic ones), start to run rampant and cause major issues. 

  Perhaps H. pylori is one of those and is more directly influencing in the cases of most ulcers?  I wouldn't say always though.   

  Candida A. is another organism that it is relatively easy to have an over growth and unchecked balance of within the body.   I don't know if it is directly causative in the case of ulcers, but i'm sure it's a major contributing factor in a percentage of cases since so many people in general seem to have issues with it whether they are conscious of it or not.

   Once these mirco organisms become so prolific, and meanwhile many of the probiotic ones become so scarce, its not easy and there is rarely a "quick fix" to restore the necessary balance within the body.

In my own case it is taking mucho discipline, and if one visits any site or forum dealing with candida issues, you will see this as a commonality, though i think some go too much to the extreme. 

   I know of some herbs which are very healing to the stomach and intestinal lining, which may help out with ulcers, one is Slippery elm bark and another is American Saffron tea.  Roobios or Red tea, and Chamomile tea also help out some, to a lesser extent than the before mentioned herbs.   Using digestive enzymes is also a big help often. 

But above all, one needs to incorporate a much more probiotic diet into the life.   Large amounts of plain organic yogurt, a well sourced raw goat milk if one can find it, Kefir, real pickles, real and active sauerkraut, kombucha, etc are a good first start.  The more you can make your own, the better and in the case of Kefir it is very easy and if you don't like the taste you can make smoothies with them using a little fruit and mostly stevia or xylitol for sweetening. 

  Many of these pathogenic/opportunistic m. organisms like candida THRIVE off our hard to digest, high sugar and high carb diets.  Too much of that, along with too many anti biotics is often a huge factor in creating an imbalance in the first place. 

  I repeat anti-biotics are too much of a "quick fix" and should not be completely relied upon, for they kill not just the more destructive organisms, but also the more immediately and obviously helpful ones.    In the long term sense, it's the probiotics which keep these other, probably even somewhat necessary, organisms in check and balance. 

  It's funny, but in the U.S., people are tending to live longer but the quality of life seems to be going way down hill and chronic diseases seem to be skyrocketing.   Part of that comes from too many quick fixes of symptoms (like the shelling out of antibiotics like they were candy), really unhealthy diets, and a host of other factors (including things like rising pollution levels).

  And yes, stress is often a major factor in most disease and dis-ease cases.  Stress upsets the important PH balance in the body.   It is good to have acid within the stomach, but major problems happen when the tissues (and some fluids) in the body start to become overly acidic.  This happens mainly through diet and stress.

Some foods are very acidic in their normal state (like lemons), but when digested aright, they become very alkaline forming or reacting.   Other foods test alkaline in their normal state, like various meats, but are very acid forming in nature. 

  Another case where quick fixes do not work very well.  For example, some will put baking soda in their water occasionally to help to create a more alkaline effect in the body.  Well, baking soda is loaded with salt and many people get too much sodium (especially the wrong forms of same) in the body too begin with and adding such extra large amounts can be very hard on most bodies.  Baking soda has no nutritional properties whatsoever besides its alkalizing effect.

  Much, much, much better to juice some fresh lemons first thing in the morning, with mostly water, a very little orange juice, and a little stevia to taste (the kind sold in the droppers tend to taste much better than the powder kinds and don't have much of a bitter aftertaste at all).  This is both very alkalizing and very healing, cleansing, and strengthening to the body physical.  You are ingesting live food which promotes life, and nothing more cleansing and alkalizing in nature than fresh lemon juice.     But you can't eat immediately after drinking this juice, especially not dairy or grain products.   Should wait at least some half hour and preferably more if you can.   Otherwise it might not get digested right and it will stay more in its extremely acid state. 

 

Lucy wrote on Apr 5^th, 2008 at 5:06pm:



  Hi Lucy,

  Real pickles are those made in the old fashioned way without vinegar added, but fermented/cultured and then some salt (and spices to taste) added to balance the acidity that develops from the lactic acid producing probiotic bacteria. 

  They should still have some probiotic activity within them.  These are usually found at natural health food/organic food stores like Whole foods and the like.   "Bubbies" pickles are along those lines.    Their pickles supposedly have a rather active culture in them.

These types will always be in a refrigerated area as to slow down the processes of the probiotic bacterias. 

Similar thing with "real" Sauerkraut, look generally for no vinegar and refrigerated kinds.  Bubbies brand says they partially pasteurize their brand of Kraut, but don't completely kill all the culture.  They started to partially pasteurize their Kraut after having problems with their glass containers exploding from the gases created from the too active culturing process. 

   I'm not totally for a completely raw food diet.  Some healthy foods are actually easier to digest and to assimilate their nutrients when cooked (like broccoli for example), but generally speaking i believe it's ideal to have most of ones foods either raw or in a cultured type form and something i'm personally trying to move more and more towards.    I would NOT recommend most raw forms of meat, though high quality and well sourced sushi seems to be alright healthwise usually.

  I've never been much of a pickle fan myself, but i've read reviews of "Bubbies" pickles, and people who like pickles, rave over their brand of pickles.  Particularly the ones whose parents, grandparents, etc. came from the old countries, and i guess that particular company has a huge Jewish fan club because their pickles are so authentic to that old world style. 

  Nah, i don't work for Bubbies. 

  Anyways, back to ulcers...