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What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue? (Read 15618 times)
dave_a_mbs
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #15 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 6:17pm
 
Hi Hawkeye-
I think Brendan and I come from the same background in many ways. And it is a difficult place to reconcile at times.  But I'd like to try.

Look at the mosquito for a moment, The Aedes Aegypti carries Yellow Fever, Dengue and Malaria, as a minimum, anmd is a potentially deadly threat. (I still have a recurrent form a typhus that alomost took me out from one of those wee beasties.) The mosquito plays a deadly game in which it is driven to bite us. We, on the other hand, have the choice of being bitten, trying to repel the things, or getting out the swatter. Neither I not the bug wanted this, I suspect, but Nature's way has created the situation.

The next question is how to deal with it.  I don't feel that it does me any good to be bitten and to become a sick nuisance and then die, when I have a lot of people depending on me to help them stay alive. It doesn't pay off for me either. So my choice is to repel the little guys, and the, if they won't stay away, it's "Go to God" time. SWAT!

Many of us dislike the idea of killing. This is especially true after we evaluate our world and what we have seen it do to people. However, killing and serious inury is part of the game played by many others. When a bad guy enters your home and brutally rapes your wife (rape is an expression of rage - rape is only rarely sexual), or murders you (here the rage is more clear), somehow calling for the police to come doesn't seem to set it all right again. I wish it could -but the deed is done. I offer therapy for the victims of such cases, but it doesn't really make them whole again. As a result, the "mosquito doctrine" has got to be applied.

We are mentally and physically  built in a manner in which when threatened we tend to defend ourselves. This is part of the reason we resist killing - we seek to defend ourselves from having death in our lives. On the other side, we are aware that what we are doing is ending a life that has become dangerous, a direct and deadly threat, both to us and to others.

One of the mosquitos that gave me typhus later flew over and bit my wife and we almost lost her as well. (About 20% mortality.) The same is true of a murderer or rapist. Is that how we should live - allowing these guys to prey on us, and then on our loved ones?

Killing is actually a part of life for all of us. Nature is red from tooth to claw. If you eat meat, you have hired a number of assassins to go forth and terminate livestock. To say that Big Macs grow on trees is obviously delusional. The knackers and butchers job is to remove the gristly bits, and to give us the tender parts to chew on. So in fact we usually kill on a daily basis, but not with gun or knife - we kill with the dollar, the ruble, the sheckel and the euro.

Personally, I'm an extremely effective hunter, with extensive practice. However, I decided that I would rather have 40 turkeys wandering through my yard while eating tofu stroganoff, than to have a barren world, as I eat its residents. This is a personal decision that all of us have to make at some time. For those of us who are willing to be responsible, possession of weapons forces us to make that decision, and to define the limits within which we will live. It is an awesome responsibility. Maybe the focus that this brings is the benefit of the Brady laws. (Although Sarah Brady's version is that one must first disarm the nation prior to creating a socialist state.)

I'm very happy to hear B-Man blustering and fussing, sending verbal fulminations out into the world about his feelings concernng mistreatment etc. He is much like the Lion fish. The Lion fish is colored red and whte, a danger signal. If you are so foolish to ignore the warning and still try to grab him, the poison of his spines will kill you. That's an excellent strategy. It means that he knows the score and is trying to communicate to the world that they should be repelled from him with respect to certain types of activities. That seems to me to be an excellent idea.

To look at all this and say that it is a kil-kill mentality misses the point. If a person has that kind of mind, we read about them in the papers as they destroy a school, or a home. The lion fish is deady from tip to tail, yet is only interested in minding its own business. It is dangerous only if you mess with it.

In the present world we are mostly insulated from the predators that lie just beyond the glimmer of the campfire. However, had it not been for a lot of people who were willing to take up arms when attacked, today you'd likely be speaking a different language. As someone put it, "A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a weapon is a subject."

While lion fishes tend to be relatively solitary, they obviously get together from time to time - there's a lot of them - and they seem to be perfectly content to mind their own affairs. If your tastes run n some other direction, that's OK. But it might be well to keep in mind that it is because we have, as a last resort, the threat of giving death, that we are able to live, and to live peacefully.

I'm 100% with those who pray for the day that all beings can live together in harmony. But until then, we live in a somewhat perfect reality. So, if B-MAn has to go to the barricades to save some scrawny radical pacifist who fears to say "shyte" when he has a mouthful, like it or not, I'm right behind him - as should be all of us.

As for the kill-kill mentality, are you a vegetarian?

dave

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vajra
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #16 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 6:56pm
 
To build on what you say Dave. No matter what situation we find ourselves in with people they always represent a blend of those ranging from a default goodwill position, to a default aggression position.

Most of us mix the two, are somewhere in the middle of the continuum, and respond to situations differently depending on our personal fears.

What this means is that when living in the world we have to deal with both types. And there are those out there who if it wasn't for various deterrents wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of those seemingly weak.

Even setting aside the issue of how we feel about having 'heavies' prepared to use violence to protect us (the police - a bit like your point on meat eating) we in day to day life need to project a certain degree of 'don't mess with me' to avoid being used or routinely taken advantage of too.

It's very noticeable for example that while it's well veiled (the game is lost in a sense if the bluff is called) the most effective managers manage to combine this 'don't mess' vibe with consummate relationship/social skills.

I often wonder where exactly the line lies on violence. The likes of the Shaolin monks and Zen in Japan have dabbled with quite a high degree of acceptance in Buddhism. Christianity has had its crusades, inquisitions and so on.

You could argue that exuding the above vibe and preventing violence of one sort or another amounts to skilful means, but what's the limit?

Our reality contains both yin and yang, the wrathful and the peaceful Deities. Realised behaviour must ultimately include both God made dimensions. But what if violence is permissible is realised behaviour  in this situation??? Is it something to do with the greater good?

Agape can on occasion require very tough actions -  tough love. I've on the other hand seen so called spiritual groups that fall over themselves to be 'spiritual' do a lot of harm through not confronting wrong behaviours - commit sins of omission, so to speak...
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #17 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 8:25pm
 
Yes Dave I do eat meat. But my eating or killing for food does not meen I hate the animal. I tend not to hold on to hate. In fact at this point I hate no person. I feel no need to. My weekness is that a pass judgment uopn others like I did with FB. In my world of beliefs there is no room to hold the anger and hate I see at times. I hate but I also let it go when I see what I am doing. I learn my own weeknesses from it. FB can feel any ways he wants to about the killer or his parents. You do what you need to to get through the day FB. I do have to agree with Dave though... You are like the Lion Fish...Poisoness, yet colorfull enough to see just what you are. Thank you, FB included, for the lesson.
Joe      
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #18 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:08pm
 
Vajra and Hawkeye-
I think that you have summed up what I was trying to express pretty well. BUT there is a little issue with the idea of hatred, at least as I've experienced it clincially.

There is not much tendency to differentiate between hatred and rage in common speech - Were I to spill my hot coffee while trying both to sip it and negociate a tight turn in my car I might say,  "Oh, bollocks, I hate it when that happens." Wink

Yet this is imprecise, and is not what is actually meant.

Rage is a natural response for self preservation. Were I to stand on your favorite toe, whether or not by accident, you'd initially try to remove me nicely, but rapidly, as your color reddens and temperature and blood pressure rise, you soon would give me a healthy shove, or whatever else might be needed. Then, the problem having been solved, life goes on. Your toe is saved, and I learn to be more careful. That's the purpose of rage. Unless we get carried away, it's a win-win deal.

Hatred is a regenerative emotional state in which we carry the wound and keep scratching it open. With each bitter scratch we redirect rage at the perceived source. I see it in the pathology of souls who have dragged insults from prior lifetimes over into the present, and they still tear open their bleeding carcasses i order to spew venom in the direction of others. As you might guess, that causes life to become difficult.

To hate means changing the basic personality and making it contingent on hostile actions against others, whether in mind or deed. It is a deliberately acquired state. Regrettably, the English language tends to mask our participation in hatred, as we tend to say, "He makes me hate him", or the equivalent. In my clinical practice I point out that in French one says, "Je me fache de ca," which translates into "I anger myself from that." The French stay in charge.

An example, visiting a friend with an infant who is happy and gurgling and chortles as we bounce it over our shoulder. Often the abrupt result, especially after dinner, is that the infant spits up. We generally laugh, clean ourselves off, and forget it. (Also, we learn to put a diaper over the shoulder before burping the kid.)  But if twenty years later we were to embrace a friend who promptly pukes on us, we tend to react differently. There is a strong tendency to become enraged, as if the situation has brought something different. But the only difference (except perhaps for volume) is that we view things differently. The facts as we experience them are no different. In the second case we project motivation and react to our projection. The fact might be that our friend has an upset tummy, but the tendency is to project blame, and in some cases, to decide to hate that person.

Clinically, hatred thus means that we add a contingency to our lives that involves keeping a source of pain handy, and reacting to it in an unpleasant manner, so that we can rekindle the initial painful event. Whatever happened, it remains in present time through hatred. This is the problem with "rape therapy" in which the therapist tells the victim (male or female - men get it too) that they'll feel better if they can embrace their hatred. It just doesn't work - and it is often true that this is part of the projections of the therapist who got diddled back a few years in time, whch makes matters even worse. The solution is to "forgive" in the sense of letting go and getting on with life.

As we look at Tibetan deities, Mahakala is a typical wrathful deity. I occasionally have handed out Mahakala cards to kids who needed a protector to keep the ghosts out of the closet at night. But there are no "hateful" deities.

So I'm very much in favor of rage as a healthy response to thngs getting messed up. It's a great motivator. But to hate is self-destructive. It's a pity that our language so often fulfils the gloomy predictions of semanticists who claim that the words we use shape our thoughts.

As for eating meat or not - that's a personal matter. Not my department. However, I note in passing, that most of the less technological hunting societies do, in actual fact, love and respect the animal that is hunted. In many cases, even a tree is asked to understand and forgive before it is cut down. (And I've observed that there are places on the Internet where we can find a new and not necessarily desired definition of "animal husbandry".) Wink

Hmmm - I think I've located the limit.  Lips Sealed


dave




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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #19 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 2:54am
 
Dave, you wrote:
______________
I'm very happy to hear B-Man blustering and fussing, sending verbal fulminations out into the world about his feelings concernng mistreatment etc. He is much like the Lion fish. The Lion fish is colored red and whte, a danger signal. If you are so foolish to ignore the warning and still try to grab him, the poison of his spines will kill you. That's an excellent strategy. It means that he knows the score and is trying to communicate to the world that they should be repelled from him with respect to certain types of activities. That seems to me to be an excellent idea.

To look at all this and say that it is a kil-kill mentality misses the point. If a person has that kind of mind, we read about them in the papers as they destroy a school, or a home. The lion fish is deady from tip to tail, yet is only interested in minding its own business. It is dangerous only if you mess with it.
*****************
Well said!
I would no sooner be a wolf; that is, a predator - than be a sheep (a helpless victim.) Although I must confess to having more respect for the "wolf", on a strictly prejudicial basis. Why do I say this? Because it is the "sheep" who are trading our collective liberty for security. America, the land of the (increasingly un)free, and the home of the fraidy-cats...
Let me be a lionfish! (Or a porcupine, or rattlesnake if you will.) Leave
me alone, and I'll leave YOU alone.
If everyone thought this way... imagine about how peaceable a world this
would be! (Just as life in the REAL Old West - far from being the violent bloodbath portrayed in countless Westerns - was peaceable to the point of being positively BORING for most people.)
Weapons ownership and know-how, is no small part of this stance. (Let
any who think they can deny it, give me their proof..!)

B-man
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B-dawg
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #20 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 3:24am
 
FB, I wanted to get back on this thread as the other one is really about the girls and their problems. Where I have the problem is your need to express a desire to kill. Not that is makes a differance if you use a gun or a needle. Its still a desire to kill. You even mention a desire to penalise his mother for giving birth to him. I have hunting rifles myself. Its the hand guns that are used for killing humans. That where I have a problem. As for you having guns... well you have express your thoughts very well. I don't personaly think you should have them with your kill, kill, mentality. I would think that your just as dangerous as he was. I sure wouldnt want someone to go into your house and take what guns you have mind you. You have the "right" to own them. I bet your a collector or something like that. Knives also? Your probably ( or were) a darn good army man. (Or did they not even let you in?) You know all brain washed into the whole kill,kill. You know, a good killing man. Did ya bully in school? To me you seem like an open book. A dangerous open book. How interesting it will be for you on the other side I would imagine. I wonder if there are flies to pull the wings off over there for you to have your fun with? Or am I all wrong FB. If I am, my apologies. I could have you all wrong. I mean no harm to you. It could be that your not twisted. You could be 100% USA grade A, #1, normal.  And if so,  could you offer me your "forgiveness"? For I am a judgemental person with weeknesses of my own.
Joe
Joe
*****************
*Groan*...
You're obviously a formula thinker who's taken ALL of his ideas, from
what he thought we're based on "good authority."
Since you've taken the trouble to dissect me, I'll concede a couple
of hits you made.
A. Yeah, I own a couple of pistols. So what? I happen to get pleasure from owning, customizing, and shooting them. Just as some people do the same thing with cars. (What pleasure will YOU give up, if I give up my pistols? Fair is fair...)
B. I did a stint in the Army. (I'm too much of a privacy-loving type to be happy living in the barracks, so I didn't really take to Army life. Still, I'm glad I did it, so conclude what you will from that.)
Otherwise, you missed on everything else (like me being a bully, torturing kittens, molesting babies ect.) So sorry if this hurts to hear, but if your lifelong dream was to be an FBI profiler - I'd start thinking of alternative career choices, OK?
Oh, and one other thing. I'm not a profiler (and never aspired to be one) but here's my go at dissecting YOU, Joe.
Ya ready? Here goes...
You clearly have a very authority-based view of things. Your beliefs are based on what you see as PROPER, based on what those who you believe to have "proper authority" told you. (i.e. your parents, teachers, politicians, your church, ect.) Not because you respected them based on your own ideals, but because you were TOLD to respect them, and you did because obedience is a virtue (just as you were TOLD it was.)
So let me guess...
You liked CLOWNS when you were a kid. And I'll bet
you still do. Why do I say so, you ask?
Because you overrode your natural, gut perception that they
were CREEPY (which they are!) after listening to the
big-people (your parents, maybe?) who told you
that they were funny and you were supposed to
enjoy their presence. Don't feel bad though Joe, this
is a common reaction in kids. It gets a bit more problematic
when you're still reacting the same way as an adult (although
that's fairly common too. So, you're still "normal" at least...
and I'm sure you're just as pleased as Punch with THAT.)
Hoping to have been of service to you on your journey
to "knowing thyself",

B-man
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vajra
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #21 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 7:56am
 
I'd say FB to just be very careful of what you perceive as a healthy 'bravery' or courage. Most of the posturing done by those espousing 'self reliance' and 'self defence' is actually at least as much fear driven as that of the politically correct 'there ought to be a law' brigade that works itself into hysteria about everything.

Most of the conventional tramlines society conditions people to think along do not work when you look closely at the reality.

You're right in one respect in that courage is at the centre of our ability to live wisely and compassionately - but it's a subtle deal. It's at the core of some of the questions I posed on acceptable violence above as well.

As ever it's the case that ALL behaviour driven by selfish grasping (a Buddhist term that incorporates both our trying to get that we desire, and trying to avoid that we feel we will dislike at the expense of others, or of our environment, or whatever) leads to suffering for both ourselves and others.

To try to offer a view on what this may mean. It seems on the face of it that the use of force to prevent an individual from acting in a way that will harm others is at least possibly a compassionate move, or for the greater good.

But it needs a lot of wisdom to get it right, because this may not be the case. Aggression has the  property (as with love  - the other end of the continuum) of escalating. For example if you clobber a guy to stop him doing something to you, you may cause his family or associates to use more extreme violence next time around. And to come after you as well. Or to go to jail for intensive training in criminality, in effect destroying his life and that of the many his subsequent crime empire will touch.

The wiser and more compassionate course of action might have been to give him your wallet, and engage him in conversation and try to talk him out of it. (a hopelessly naive sounding response to most) Or to use minimum force or other means to distract him and run. Or even to take the risk of stonewalling him and walking away.

I can't say that there aren't circumstances where carefully applied force is not the right response (the target has his finger on the button of a nuclear device in the centre of a large city), but we inevitably overdo it out of fear, or out of taking a pleasure in exercising power (how many high speed police chases truly make sense? - many pose more risk than the target and as in the case of kids joining the military are the result of an unconscious boys with toys mindset) and out of not truly understanding or caring about the consequences of our actions.

At the highest level this fear driven tendency to engage in pre-emptive violence out of fear of what the other guy is up to and an unwillingness to accept any risk or heaven forbid trust a little is the cause of most wars. Most leaders will for example out of a selfish urge to not be found wanting trigger pre-emptive action of whatever sort rather than take a risk.

I'd argue that there's an absolutely 'right' action that maximises the benefit for all in all cases, and that while for sure we won't have the knowledge and the insight to figure it 100% of the time or the courage to see it through that the ideal lies a lot close to what you might call a 'pro-active courageous pacifism' than we usually think....
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #22 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 3:43pm
 
I'm all for forgiveness. Smiley In fact, I've forgiven everybody who has ever done harm to me during this life.  What I truly am, can never be harmed by another. The same is true for everybody else. Spiritual truth "ALWAYS" has the answer.
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #23 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 4:13pm
 
Here's another factor:

People have vengeful feelings because they believe that things can't be settled, made right, until some form of vengeful action takes place. Once they find out that vengeful action isn't necessary in order for everything to be perfect, they will no longer feel such a need.

Think of this universe as a giant jigsaw puzzle. Until the puzzle is completed, it is hard to feel at peace. But once it is completed, you can relax. Regarding the schedule, what does it mean when it is suggested that spirit beings abide in a realm of "no time?" Perhaps everything gets settled in the same "now." During my night in heaven experience, it felt as if there weren't any problems anywhere. This doesn't mean that people don't suffer while here in the World.  However, perhaps all generations experience their suffering in the same "now."


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vajra
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #24 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 4:51pm
 
Forgiveness is an interesting aspect of it all R. It feels so much like it's different to love or agape, yet the effect is much the same. In that if someone is aggressive trowards you and you forgive (respond lovingly) then the cycle of escalation never develops and the aggressor may in fact be inspired to stop the behaviour. (to behave lovingly)

Smiley A bit of as brain melter, as it says that viewed from a higher collective consciousness level that non aggression and forgiveness are both the same. Which makes sense if you carefully figure it out, but not until then because our learned sense of the meaning of the two words tends not to acknowledge this...
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #25 - Feb 20th, 2008 at 9:08pm
 
I'd say FB to just be very careful of what you perceive as a healthy 'bravery' or courage. Most of the posturing done by those espousing 'self reliance' and 'self defence' is actually at least as much fear driven as that of the politically correct 'there ought to be a law' brigade that works itself into hysteria about everything.

Most of the conventional tramlines society conditions people to think along do not work when you look closely at the reality.

You're right in one respect in that courage is at the centre of our ability to live wisely and compassionately - but it's a subtle deal. It's at the core of some of the questions I posed on acceptable violence above as well.

As ever it's the case that ALL behaviour driven by selfish grasping (a Buddhist term that incorporates both our trying to get that we desire, and trying to avoid that we feel we will dislike at the expense of others, or of our environment, or whatever) leads to suffering for both ourselves and others.

To try to offer a view on what this may mean. It seems on the face of it that the use of force to prevent an individual from acting in a way that will harm others is at least possibly a compassionate move, or for the greater good.

But it needs a lot of wisdom to get it right, because this may not be the case. Aggression has the  property (as with love  - the other end of the continuum) of escalating. For example if you clobber a guy to stop him doing something to you, you may cause his family or associates to use more extreme violence next time around. And to come after you as well. Or to go to jail for intensive training in criminality, in effect destroying his life and that of the many his subsequent crime empire will touch.

The wiser and more compassionate course of action might have been to give him your wallet, and engage him in conversation and try to talk him out of it. (a hopelessly naive sounding response to most) Or to use minimum force or other means to distract him and run. Or even to take the risk of stonewalling him and walking away.
*****************
In my younger days, I tried - for a time - the approach of "reasoning" with bullies, aggressors, ect. In EVERY case, I found it made the situation worse (much, MUCH worse in most cases...)
But I shouldn't have bothered to conduct that "experiment" (called being
a big chickensh!t, actually); someone (more noteworthy than myself!)  tried it about 50 years before my time.
His name was Neville Chamberlain. Ever heard of him?

B-man
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #26 - Feb 21st, 2008 at 6:44am
 
If that's final then so be it B. That's the way the world goes on .....

But I'd ask you to consider the possibility that what actually happens in life is that when we (for wholly understandable reasons) in our clumsy way try to show care we're not very skilful in the way we do it.

We're anyway as a result of the fear I mentioned above usually unwilling to accept any hardship whatsoever - in absence of perceiving any reason to do otherwise we act as best we can to avoid pain with relatively little thought of the consequences.

With little thought of how effective our default strategy for this is either - it somehow almost never works, but we still cling to it.

There is in most situations a way to square the circle. One which neither relies on aggression or is driven by fear, and which at the same time avoids trouble. Showing fear (and aggressive people have a very finely tuned sense of this)  - either through appeasement, running away or whatever  - will always draw trouble.

A skilful player, with finely tuned intuition, good training and life experience will almost always find a way to defuse a situation. Or more likely by skilful positioning won't allow it to develop, or will be well placed to respond when it does arise.

Chamberlain is not a good example. He was naive enough to attempt appeasement from a position of weakness at a time when the die was already cast - having determined that as they saw it that the European powers were not ready for and had no heart for it the German leadership was already committed to war.

It's not an easy road, it requires first of all a lot of wisdom, compassion and courage, and it will contain reverses where we get it wrong while honing our skills and our view. Not to mention that in a world  where many of its inhabitants adopt the rule of the fittest it's clear that suffering cannot be 100% avoided. But even when we can't avoid it having the courage to act through love minimises the consequences for ourselves and for others.

It's no simple task, and is in effect our life's work. Try Chogyam Trungpa's 'Shambhala the Sacred Path of the Warrior' if you'd like to explore this thinking a little more.

You'd be far from alone in adopting an 'I'm well hard me' sort of attitude in response to life experience, but the hard reality that human affairs have demonstrated time and again over the ages is that when having been hurt a few of times we out of fear we mistakenly (mistakenly because there are other ways) adopt a simplistic and default one size fits all  stance of aggression it always leads to like responses and to suffering.....
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #27 - Feb 24th, 2008 at 12:29am
 
[quote author=vajra link=1203153713/15#26 date=1203590671]If that's final then so be it B. That's the way the world goes on .....

But I'd ask you to consider the possibility that what actually happens in life is that when we (for wholly understandable reasons) in our clumsy way try to show care we're not very skilful in the way we do it.

We're anyway as a result of the fear I mentioned above usually unwilling to accept any hardship whatsoever - in absence of perceiving any reason to do otherwise we act as best we can to avoid pain with relatively little thought of the consequences.

With little thought of how effective our default strategy for this is either - it somehow almost never works, but we still cling to it.

There is in most situations a way to square the circle. One which neither relies on aggression or is driven by fear, and which at the same time avoids trouble. Showing fear (and aggressive people have a very finely tuned sense of this)  - either through appeasement, running away or whatever  - will always draw trouble.

A skilful player, with finely tuned intuition, good training and life experience will almost always find a way to defuse a situation. Or more likely by skilful positioning won't allow it to develop, or will be well placed to respond when it does arise.

Chamberlain is not a good example. He was naive enough to attempt appeasement from a position of weakness at a time when the die was already cast - having determined that as they saw it that the European powers were not ready for and had no heart for it the German leadership was already committed to war.

It's not an easy road, it requires first of all a lot of wisdom, compassion and courage, and it will contain reverses where we get it wrong while honing our skills and our view. Not to mention that in a world  where many of its inhabitants adopt the rule of the fittest it's clear that suffering cannot be 100% avoided. But even when we can't avoid it having the courage to act through love minimises the consequences for ourselves and for others.

It's no simple task, and is in effect our life's work. Try Chogyam Trungpa's 'Shambhala the Sacred Path of the Warrior' if you'd like to explore this thinking a little more.

You'd be far from alone in adopting an 'I'm well hard me' sort of attitude in response to life experience, but the hard reality that human affairs have demonstrated time and again over the ages is that when having been hurt a few of times we out of fear we mistakenly (mistakenly because there are other ways) adopt a simplistic and default one size fits all  stance of aggression it always leads to like responses and to suffering.....
*****************
That was all about as clear as mud, vajra.
(Especially your first/second and last paragraphs.)
And that's part of the problem I have with
pacifism, and pacifists. It is impossible make a clean, concise,
crisp non-emotionalistic defense of pacifism! And so people like
yourself end up beating around the bush
and chasing your own tail, using a ton of words
to say what amounts to... well, nothing. (Although
you're dead on about attempting conciliation to an
aggressor from a position of weakness. This is
why I do my best to STAY AWAY from a position
of weakness!!!)
I gather from your post above, that you believe
we are somehow obliged to willingly submit to
suffering. Why? Do you think you'd get a pat
on the back by "God" or something in the
afterlife, for letting yourself be used as a
doormat in C1? (I'm not saying that you are
a doormat, vajra. In fact, I'd daresay that if
I wronged you, you'd see to it that I got a door
shoved up my a$$... that's how your typical
liberal operates!)

B-man

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hawkeye
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #28 - Feb 29th, 2008 at 3:55pm
 
FB, Molesting babies? Huh? Are you tring to get something off your chest or something? You know, if you are molesting babies, then there might be a use for those hand guns of yours after all.
Don't believe in church, don't especially like clowns.. now the obedience thing , thats different. When my wife says jump, I do have a tendency to step up and pay attention. A lession I have learned over time.
Joe
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vajra
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Re: What's wrong with "forgiveness" as a virtue?
Reply #29 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 7:58am
 
There's not much point FB putting words in my mouth to fit some stereotype that appeals to you, and then proceeding to take what I wrote apart as though this presumption reflected the reality.

That's the self made goldfish bowl in action again - your own head stuff, and the reason why much of humanity goes round in circles digging itself deeper into the mire.
The point is not that we have to submit to suffering. The point is that it's our unthinking adoption of fear driven aggression and the patterns of behaviour that flow from this that make life a litany of suffering. IT'S OURSELVES THAT MAKE THIS LIFE. The harder we try to avoid suffering by being tougher than the other guy the worse it gets. (quote: '....is why I do my best to STAY AWAY from a position of weakness!!!')

How can a world full of people all trying to get ahead at the expense of the other possibly result in anything other than suffering? I know.....you're different to all the rest: you'll never find yourself in a situation where you need help, where you have no money, where you or your child gets ill, old or depressed, or where another with a bigger gun, a larger army, a bigger bureaucracy, a fatter wallet or a PR line that takes you in intent on screwing you gets to decide your life.

This is nothing to do with some primitive storing up of brownie points in life so you can go to heaven on a rocket when you die. Is it like you have any choice but to reap the results of your behaviour in this life as it unfolds?

I'm not arguing, and I'm not going to waste an afternoon (when it'll probably only bring another round of abuse) explaining the nuts and bolts of how it is that wise and compassionate behaviours ('living through love') is the route to minimisation of this suffering, and why far from being some sort of blanket passivity for wimps it's the hardest path there is. True compassion is often very tough.

Be aware too that the language and view of aggression is only one of many, that there's a wholly logical but very different way of figuring out how life works.

I can't do it for you anyway - there's lots written if you care to look, but it's YOU that has to do it. That's if you can raise the wherewithal and dare to open (if only temporarily) beyond the security blanket of the usual societally conditioned tunnel vision.

And you will by the way - sooner or later having been broken down to the point where the ego starts to lose control we all eventually realise we're tired of mindlessly banging our heads on a brick wall.

It's just a matter of how much suffering it's going to take to produce some opening.....
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