Hm, I think scientists are smart enough to realize the dangers of the greenhouse effect without the help of aliens. And why the heck don't those aliens land on the marketplace and tell everybody, then everybody would know. But nah, all is happening super top secretly, at area 51 and in underground tunnel systems and such, and the governments are hiding it... I don't know...

Spooky

Its a well know fact that in the age of the dinosaurs earth was a much warmer planet with sea levels much higher that they are today. The problem as I see it it that there will be an enormous amount of flooding in coastal cities and in countries like Pakistan the Netherlands, and other low lying areas. There is going to be a very large cost to moving these peoples and adjusting to the food groups that survive that changes. Plant and animal. The problem as I see it is not the global warming but the polluation that is causing it to happin at this speeded up rate. Don't fall into the trap of what I believe to be the new fear mongering. You can bet theres money to be made and fear to be brought upon us all. We as a species will adjust and survive. Many of the other species we hold so dear to us will not be so lucky. I think we should be far more concerned about global polluting  (cause) than about global warming(effect).
Joe

I would think that our biggist polluter is our use of and the higher demand for fossil fuels. Oil, coal, wood, gas, all being burnt or remanufactured into something we think we need and releasing toxic cra- into the air. Plactics and the sort. I was watching The Amazing Race last night on the tely and they were in Africa. Piles and piles of used garbage bags everwhere. Its the same in Mexico. Its the same thing here only we hide then in landfills. I am as guilty as the next for doing damage to the enviroment. I drive a SUV. Drink out of water bottles. Eat packaged food. I also try to do my best to recycle where possable. Slow down when I drive. Turn the heat down when I can, etc. I know that I am part of the problem and also know all of us are the most of finding the solution. I sure can't blame the Chinese or the Indians, or Mexicans, etc for wanting what they see us as having. Driving big cars and having big houses. Air conditioning, central heating.  Bottem line is there is a price for it all, and as a worldwide community, we are all going to pay that price. I don't mind the world getting warmer. I don't like myself being this part of the cause.
Joe  

it's true one of the biggest polluters is cattle... they burp out a lot of methane.  but i'd rather have alternative energy than stop eating them.   

  Some say that one of the big reasons that Jesus took such a nutty in the Temple market area, was that because the Temple market was primarily in the business of selling animals (like doves, goats, and the like) to be killed or burnt alive as a sacrifice to "God" to pay for human sins. 

  Not only were they trying to turn a place for spiritual worship into a commercial, profit driven business area, but they were also causing much needless, stupid, and very cruel suffering to his friends to do so. 

No wonder why he got angry.   Anyone with half a conscience would have gotten pissed.  What gives any human the right to do this, and yet we constantly sanction it day in and day out.   

the_seeker wrote on Nov 28^th, 2007 at 1:20am:


   (and the gloves come off in the 3rd round, ding ding ding ding)   

  Our bodies evolved to eat meat?   Not really, if you look at our ancestors, if you really examine our body objectively, you will find that our bodies are primarily designed for a fruit, veggie, grain, type diet with the ability or capacity to occasionally subsist off meat.   Take our stomachs for example, as compared to the average carnivore or omnivore (like a bear), we don't produce near the amounts and intensity of hydrochloric acid that these animals produce to break down heavy proteins like meat, grizzle, etc. 

  If humans evolved to eat meat, nature would have made us a little bit more predatory body wise, because the first humans and our ancestors while they had brains to some extent, their technology was pretty sad.    Yet we find the human body to be one of the, if not the weakest in the predatory, carnivore world.   It's even weaker and more fragile than a Chimp, one of our closest living relatives.    Whom by the way, primarily subsist off fruits, veggies, and insects.     But, aren't we meant to be even more compassionate than a Chimp?

Quote:


   So why did Jesus get so forceful and probably even angry in the Temple?   Why was Buddha a vegetarian, why was Gandhi, why are most Hindu's vegetarian, why were some of the greatest thinkers of our time also vegetarian (like Einstein and btw, Hitler really wasn't that was propaganda)?  Why were the Essenes?   Many of these individuals have one thing in common, pretty fast vibratory patterns as part of their consciousness. 

  I've read quite a few NDE's and it seems that most people that have experienced these were averagely developed, or in the case of people like Dannion Brinkley or the guy from House of Pain, pretty darn slow vibrating before these experiences.   So when these die, the guides are only working with so much spiritually and ethically speaking.    So they tell them things like, "its important to be kind to others when you go back", etc. ad infinitum.   You got to start with the basics for most people, and then as they live those spiritual principles in relation to other humans, they will be led to the more finer and subtle aspects of compassion and spirituality.   Many spiritual sources say that it's important to respect, be kind, and compassionate to Creation in general, and wouldn't you know but creation includes nature and animals. 

  Edgar Cayce's guides once told a person, "Do not lower the plane of development by eating animal flesh"     Eating meat, actually slows down the vibrations of the body physical, and also has an adverse affect on the etheric, emotional, and mental body energies too.    If you don't believe me, then check out Cosmic Journey's by Rosiland McKnight whom worked with Bob Monroe very closely for a long time, as one of his early explorers.    Her sessions with her guides are a big part of why and how the Gateway Voyage program ever came to exist. 

  There is a chapter in there called, "Control: The Foods We Eat"   Bob and Rosie got a little reprimanded for their terrible diets and how it was interfering with a greater balance of their total energy system.    Two main things were pointed out, over eating and eating too much meat.   But they went into a lot of detail relating to how our diets can affect positive and negative energy flows in our systems.

  I've been a vegetarian for 6 years now, and i feel much, much better than i did when i ate meat.   I feel much lighter, and i have much more energy.   Rosie's guides talk about this, and talk about how meat, particularly beef and pork, are very heavy and slow vibrating in energy, and that they tend to put a strain on the digestive system, which then takes away energy from the rest of the human energy system.    Eliminate the meats, especially the heavier meats, and your energy system doesn't need to do all this overwork. 

  They talk about fear energy and toxins in the meat, and that these are very slow vibrating energies.   Emotional fear is one of the slowest vibratratory patters there are, which is why in much spiritual literature, many sources say that fear is the closest opposite to love that there is, even though its not truly its opposite.   Well, when you slaughter an animal, they tend to know what's going on and tend to be quite afraid, and so their flesh becomes pumped full of toxic adrenaline hormones, and more subtle energy levels of fear permeate the flesh as well.  So when you ingest their flesh, you are assimilating both the physical toxins, and also the more emotional subtle energies of fear as well.     Ever notice how guys who eat a lot of red meat tend to be very aggressive and with quick fuses?    There is a relationship, a cause and effect with this.

  This was proven in a study with prisoners.   They took a group of known to be violent prisoners, totally changed their diet to a vegetarian and after awhile, they noticed a big change in their behaviors and moods.   Basically, they calmed down a bit.   Oh, but filling oneself up with toxins and fear energy has no negative or slow vibrating affect whatsoever.

Quote:


  I love when people use the whole Native American argument.  It shows two things, how much we put them unrealistically on a very generalized pedestal, and how quick we are too defend our beliefs and egos with irrational and illogical points. 

  Ok, which tribe is one talking about to begin with, there were some major differences between many of them.   More than a few tribes also warred quite violently on other tribes, and things like burning people alive was not uncommon...oh but yes, they are the ultimate in spiritual examples and leaders!   

  There is much that i respect about many Native tribes and peoples, but they were not an ascended group of people.   They were just more intune with the nature forces than were many Euros, in a more collective sense.   

  Also, to compare our times, our intents, our motivations, our conditions to the ones of which Native Americans were in, is like comparing apples and oranges.   Not only did they not kill for sport as you pointed out, but they had a lot more conscious and active appreciation and gratitude for the animals they were killing, and they didn't waste and pollute so much as we do.  We face really big pollution issues, and not eating meat is one of the best ways to say no to this and to not support it.   Also, we waste so much, we have so little gratitude, and so little active appreciation as compared to the Native Americans.

  So many of us live in lands of plenty, of plenty of food and food choices, unlike in other times or with other peoples, we can more practically and easily become vegetarian.   And yet, many of living in lands of plenty, we stuff ourselves full of toxic crap, we waste tremendously amounts, and so little have active appreciation for every meal like many ancient peoples and cultures did.   Feeling gratitude and appreciation for something, can help raise and clear the vibrations of a food, even meat to some extent.   

  But, what it really comes down too, and how it directly relates to spirituality, is does one have compassion for the emotional and physical suffering of other sentient and emotion beings suffering?    It's about as simple and as "spiritual" a question as one can be asked.   Do you place yourself and your so called needs of filling your body with toxic crap, above than animals emotional fear, stress, and physical pain so that the former can become a reality?

Compassion and love IS spirituality.  And compassion boils down to trying to alleviate others suffering, and when another living thing can feel both acute pain and emotional fear like we can, why would we want to put them through that...  Is the "but i like the taste of their flesh" and our selfishness really more important than their physical and emotional suffering?

  I would say to that people who answer yes to these questions, really don't have a deeper clue about spirituality and what it means to be 'spiritual'.    But they are experts on selfishness, insensitivity, and putting their needs, wants, and desires above others, for sure.  Spirituality and spiritual growth is not about exploring different consciousness states different than physical, its not about psychism, its about positive ideals and trying to live by those ideals, its about living more for others and the collective and not so much just for self.   

  Strong words huh, and not stuff folks want to hear.    I've read a bit about very spiritually advanced cultures living in the far, far past, and future ones and interestingly, these super spiritually developed people and cultures seem to be vegetarian in nature.    If this is true, then why would this be the case if not killing or torturing animals for food had nothing to do with spirituality?

the_seeker wrote on Nov 29^th, 2007 at 2:31am:


  Hi Seeker, i don't remember saying that one has to avoid all killing of all life to grow spiritually.   I remember specifically talking about animals who have a very developed nervous system and emotions not all that dissimilar to our own, and i'm talking about intentional supporting of or directly killing same.    Not the same thing as accidentally running over a squirrel.   Stuff happens in the physical world that sometimes can't be helped. 

  There is a degree of relativity involved here, do you not see that?   Also, for some folks, eating meat wouldn't be as destructive for them, as say some other folks.  Folks who really are immersed in the material and in slow vibratory patterns, have less of the harmful affect of meat and supporting such on a more spiritual and energetic level.   This is because, like Jesus once said, they don't really know better right now.     But, for those who have attuned to greater light, and who are faster vibrating, such choices are and can be much more detrimental and is not necessary at all.    There is a old saying which holds true i've found, those with more awareness, more understanding, have a greater responsibility than those with less awareness and understanding.    

   This site is one based on spiritual issues and subjects, and has fairly fast vibratory energies collectively speaking.  It's one of the most harmonized and fast vibrating sites i've been part of.    And because of this, i feel i can be very blunt and 'in your face' here at times.   Now, i wouldn't go on any old site, say one about knitting, business,  kittens, hunting, or the like and tell people in the same manner what i've told you.   If i even talked about it to begin with, i would put it in a different way, and point out the health and self interest benefits of going more vegetarian.    Hey, if done right and in a balanced manner, its both healthier and cheaper than eating a lot of meat, especially red meat or pork.   What's not to like about that?   

  Again, there is some relativity involved, and some people on this site, know better deep within themselves, and sometimes a firm, no nonsense, and very direct approach is needed.  Sometimes a much more subtle or indirect approach is needed.   It changes according to the moment and to the individuals and the collective energies involved.     I'm more just a messenger than anything, and i go with the flow.

Quote:


  I love your enthusiasm Seeker, now if you could just channel it into different avenues.  Again, i would say there is some relativity involved here.    For a caveman or Native American living in super tough, cold, etc. conditions, then sometimes it becomes a practical survival necessity to have to eat meat.    We cannot totally transcend such environmental conditions until we attain full Source attunement like He/She did, or the future or very far past people's that Monroe met and communicated with. 

  So, if you are in a situation wherein its your life and survival vs an animals, then i would say to the average person, "Go for it."   but please give thanks and have gratitude for the gift that you received.   

  Does any of the above though, really apply to most of us and our daily lives?   I'm not concerned with what the cavemen and Native Americans, or others had to do in the past to survive.   I'm concerned with the present conditions, and very few living in developed countries have a basic survival need to eat animal flesh.  Nor did we have such huge pollution issues then either.   Now it's primarily just a mind-body habit for most.   

  There are some whose bodies are really imbalanced, and i would not tell them to completely stop eating meat because it could make things worse, and i've found that one has to affect such changes gradually if one doesn't want to experience very unpleasant body reactions.   It's almost like drug withdrawal symptoms, if one goes cold turkey in not eating meat.   It can be a shock to the body system.

  I've talked to plenty of people who went vegetarian and vegan, with whom this 'shock' and uncomfortable feelings happened to.   They did it way too fast and suddenly.   Most shouldn't do that, especially if they are previously use to eating large quantities of the heavier meats. 

  I was lucky in the above, because i was led by guidance to affect gradual change.   Almost 12 years when 16 ago, i stopped completely eating pork and beef, but i still ate chicken and fish.    After awhile, i ate chicken less and less, and kept mostly to fish.   After awhile of that, i just lost any and all appetite for any flesh, even fish.   

  I didn't do this primarily because of one book, a teacher, a friend, or anything outside of me, it was more purely intuitive than that.     And it worked rather well, and i didn't get the extreme over reactions that i've heard many other describe when going vegetarian or vegan.   Such extreme over body reactions, makes it harder for people to affect this long term beneficial change.   Hence, i recommend gradual change, though i believe that most could cut out completely the heavy meats right way.   

   Really, other than some of the withdrawal issues i've mentioned, what's really to stop more people from being more vegetarian, what's there not to like about better health, faster vibrations, and a more clear conscience?    I have a hard time believing that one's attachment to the taste of same, is ultimately more important and influential than the above benefits.

Hi there B.W.S...,

   I live in VA now, but i'm not from here.  I'm from MA originally and was born in CA.   

  I would agree with you about the double nature of the climate changes going on.   Actually, my best guess and hunch is that its about 85 percent natural and natural cycles, and about 15 percent directly human caused or rather influenced.    There seems to be more oceanographer type scientists finding out more and more that a lot of the heating of the earth is actually coming from undersea/ocean volcanic type vents.   Much, much, much more vast and intense than the energy and heat being released from the above land volcanic systems.   In 1998 two  scientists independently found out that the bulge of the Earth at the equator was noticeably increasing due to some massive mass shifting going on in the earth.  They could only speculate about what actually was happening.   I have a theory, buts it's kind of a long drawn out explanation and i haven't worked out all the kinks yet.   It's based quite a bit on the psychic predictions of Edgar Cayce, which if interpreted correctly and holistically have mostly been fairly accurate.

  Either way, this doesn't let humanity off the hook for a moment, the big issue of pollution beyond and above that of climate changes is simply just human health and the very negative impact that this is having on us and other species.   Clean air, clean water, clean earth are all very important to those physically incarnate, and above all we just need to start learning to have respect, and to not be so selfish and narrow minded as we have been collectively for so long. 

  Thanks for all the links.   Yes, also do believe that some extremes and major changes are coming within the next 10 years or so.   This will happen on all levels for humans, and it's a way of 'clearing the air' so to speak, very necessary at this point, and a natural balancing phase and reaction.   Much like the nature and Archetype of Saturn, with Uranus combined.    How interesting then that we are moving into the Aquarian Age which is said to be ruled by Uranus and Saturn.

  That good ole Galactic Center of ours is certainly turning up the heat big time.  Funny then that this increasing bulge in the Earth near the equator happened in 1998 which is the exact year in which the Galactic-Winter Solstice Sun alignment started to happen in a physically/astronomically measurable way!   Funny then that Edgar Cayce's sources mentioned 1998 as an important marking point in the Changes, and singled this year out the most as the earnest start or pick up of same.

ahso, honestly i don't think food is worth so much thought.  a great percentage of people on the earth are lucky to have any food at all.  i think starvation is a bigger issue than what food exactly people eat.

I see no lack of love in eating meat. Also the high demand for vegies is causing an extreme increase in the use of pesticides and herbicides. All of which are doing damage to us and to animals. If eating meat was wrong and wasen't to be OK by some God like over ruler then even the animals woulden't be doing it. Me, I love a good burger and I will never go to someones elses hell because of it. Burger good, parsnip bad.
Joe

My My ASLTAO, Little sensitive today. Paranoia about being verbally attacked or something?
1) with food demand a current levels we most likely could decrease the levals of pesticides and herbicades. But then again we arn't feeding the world and in many places there is just not the food resources to go around. But perhaps your not so concerned about those people, over there and not here in front of your face.
2)I didn't say you said anything. lighten up. Your auras fading man.
3)Hmm, now you might just have something here. But... more credible phychic sources than who? (primarily vegetarian? huh)
4)I said nothing about meat eating being loving or compassionate. Its all about survival. Although it is also loving and giving to give up ones life for the survival of another. Surely you understand about giving?
5) (Yes, very high sources of protein.) I am not putting down Rosie's guidesor her at all. I have met her a few times and read her books. Very loving. What, you think she has never eaten a burger. By the way, she dosen't like being called Rosie. She much prefers Rosiland. As for Cayce, never met him. Whats he like? Ever sit down with him over lunch? As for meat, moderation is the key. It is much harder for the human body to break down meat. The best thing to remember is to chew at least 100 times just like Grandma used to say.
Now as for being more intune, more loving, and more perceptive than Rosiland's guides..... perhaps mine are. Just who are you to impose your beliefs upon me or to impose restrictions on my being-ness. Perhaps you should ask her if she thinks her guides are wiser, more intune,more loving, or more perceptive than mine. I think you allready know her answer. (Perhaps earthy judgment is best left up to you?) I won't be judged here and the only one who will be judging me, is me. I follow no strainge cult, like some here....I don't think Bruce, Bob, Rosiland, or any of them are Gods or even God like. There just the same as you and me. Its not wrong to eat meat ASLTAO. Life is a choice made. By us and by animals. Is it wrong for a lion to eat a Gazelle alive? Would it go to your hell? Just because I think different than you about meat dosen't mean I am attacking you or what you believe in. I am just expressing what I think. Your choice of being a vegetarian is commendable. But don't think for even one second that I an less than you for not believing the same. Pehaps its time to reread that book put out by the past Popes and see if you have such a right.You know the one, starts  with "In the beginning". My God dosen't need a book to explain what is right or wrong. Or even Priests, churches, or even have judgment over me. My church is within, my priest is myself, and only I will have judgment over what I have done or will ever do on this earth. It might be best to start thinking "out of the box".
My love to All of you.
Joe  

Great point, Joe!

What should we eat, after all? Can't we live on love, on air? What is the purpose of food anyway, to sustain this body? How close to this body do you feel?

If you don't feel particularly close to this body, it is remarkably unimportant what it does, or what it consumes.

We are to do good to others. It's boring. It's harsh. It's impossible. It's God's Law. The greatest commandment is, however, to love God above all others. God is supposed to be numero uno.

Then, love others as we love ourselves. Comprende?

So, how do we love God? By loving all of God's creatures, including ourselves.....

And how do we do this perfectly? See, that's the thing. God leaves it up to us, whether we buy that hamburger at the store, whether we smash that insect, whether we insist on organic...God doesn't bring a lightening bolt down from heaven to smite us. How ridiculous!

And how much does God care if an asteroid destroys every single one of us tomorrow?

I don't really know. And that scares me. Because, if you want to go biblical, well, the measure I use will be the one used on me, after life.

Whether I am "in charge" of this process or whether some angels or God or whoever doesn't  really matter to me. The point is, the law is clear.

I guess I'm ready to be someone's lunch someday because I eat whatever is around, like a good omnivore, although I pay lip service to "health" and all such nonsense. For god's sake, if you're not enjoying your life, aren't you spitting in God's face anyway?

Think how many people in poverty who would smite you, just looking at you turning up your nose at that delicious caviar and sour cream.....Oh, oink, but I digress.

(OMG.........was that just a flying pig I just saw going by me?      Mmmmmmmnnnnnnn........... )

God, would you get me off the topic of food? I just spent $200 at the grocery store, as part of an "organizing" campaign at the home front. Well, you know, be prepared.

I make myself sick.

Can I go to the monastery now? Don't we all get a rotation? I need one. Well, this life will have to do.

love, blink

hawkeye wrote on Dec 10^th, 2007 at 3:27pm:



  Hi Joe,

  Having read, and re-read your replies to me carefully, it would seem that perhaps you are the one who felt attacked or what not.   

  You also apparently don't remember very well what you say and don't say, for example, you wrote Quote:


  Then you wrote, Quote:


  The first thing you said, certainly implies something, doesn't it?   Tell that to the cow who was cruelly caged, tortured, and then painfully killed for your precious hamburger.   Tell her, "hey its no biggy, it's all about survival, and i just wouldn't survive if i didn't support the system which provides me with your delicious, succulent, bloody flesh".   

Joe wrote, Quote:


  Do you realize how much food is purposely thrown away every year to maintain and manipulate market prices?   Do you realize that one of the reasons why if there was ever a REAL shortage of sustainably grown food for people, not just Americans, is because so much crops, acreage, and food goes to feeding huge animals that we grow to eat?  That everyday, tons of rainforest is being cut down for this very same purpose, to feed the cattle that you need to eat so badly?

Do you realize how wasteful and unsustainable this is, in the long run?   Do you have any real logical arguments besides the fact that you like to indulge in and support this corrupt and inherently destructive system?
As regards Rosiland's guides, they say that meat is inherently destructive to the body and to the overall energy system.   If i could quote them and her book, i would, but since that is against the law, i will not.   However, i can refer people to the exact pages where they say this. Yes, maybe your guides are more intune, wise, and loving than they are, but something tells me that it doesn't matter what your guides are about, i'm not addressing your guides, i'm addressing you and your beliefs.   Nor am i addressing Rosiland the channel.   Many channels in my experience, rarely fully live up to what their guidance systems advocate.   Cayce was a great example of that one.   

  You wrote, Quote:


  That is an old tired argument Joe.   Use some logic and reasoning man.   Are you a lion, am i telling a lion that its destructive for it to kill and eat a gazelle?   We are human, we have intellect, we have a greater degree of freewill and conscious awareness than any other animal, we do not need to eat meat in order to physically survive.   Our bodies are not even that of a carnivore, virtually everything physically about us says primarily vegetarian with the ability to eat meat, but its like putting sugar gas in ones gas tank, not too bright in the long run.

  Let me put it very plainly and succinctly Joe, its not about the partaking of the flesh in and of itself.  If one wants to pollute their bodies with it, that's totally fine, as far as that goes, its on the same level as smoking a cigaratte in the privacy of your own home.    However, this is not primarily what i'm addressing, what i'm addressing is not contributing to and supporting the physical and emotional suffering on an animal for self serving and superficial reasons.   Or to switch the above around a bit, is it ok to smoke a cigarette in the same space of someone who goes out of their way to avoid such toxic pollution?    Or rather is doing something like that, just plain ole self serving selfishness that so many humans excel at?

As i already said, if one absolutely is in a dire, survival situation, and needs to go kill some animal for food, that is one thing, but how many really need to do that in order to survive? Do you personally?

  Your arguments are so unbelievably black and white, and lack holistic reasoning and logic.  You don't seem to realize the huge amount of suffering that goes on in todays agri-business commercial world, in regards to animals.    It is so unbelievably sad and horrifying what we do to these beings with emotions and who feel acute physical pain.   

  It's one thing to go out and cleanly and quickly kill a deer for food, its a whole nother to eat the typical burger which comes from a cow who has been tortured their whole life in order for you to eat that burger.     This is more what i'm speaking against, a cruel and compassion less system that both dehumanizes animals and humans.   

   But hey, you need that burger don't you Joe.   Truly, it is your choice, but as been said of old, "ye have before you death and life, choose thou." 
Enjoy the dense and slow vibrating fear energy in same.   As Rosiland's guides said quite plainly in her book Cosmic Journey's, like attracts and begets like, those who are slow vibrating and dead within, are attracted to that outside of self which is similar or begets a similar energy.    They say that a human truly intune with its inner guidance and who is becoming more balanced and spiritually attuned, will be led to eat more alive and life giving foods.   Many more everyday are finding this to be the case more and more.   

  Fear energy is that of death, decay, and super slow vibrations, and that's what one soaks up when one pollutes ones Temple with burgers and the like.   

Quote:



  Profound?   I would say more like "convenient".    The majority of people, even many with spiritual beliefs, tend to go with what's more convenient for self and self's wants and desires, i've noticed.   Sure, maybe God doesn't care, and there will be no lightning bolt...but yet we suffer and suffer and constantly question to Source, "why me, o why me?", never realizing that its our own choices which either bring to us joy or suffering.

  Personally, i believe if Yeshua was teaching publicly right now, he too might speak out against the agri business corporate machine and how cruelly and wrongly they treat our fellow aspects of Creation, as well. 

  But yes, first we must learn to be kind and compassionate to fellow humans before we can realize the finer and more subtle points of spirituality, compassion, and the Oneness of life.   Most people in his day and age, could not grasp even that, they were taught an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 
  They barely listened to him about not being so dogmatic and vengeful, would it have done any good to bring up something like animal cruelty in a time and place where animals were only regarded as food and slave labor?

  So he had to start real basic and simplistic like for them.   However, an entire astrological age has almost passed, and i'm talking not to ignorant and religiously dogmatic Jews, but to people who call themselves free thinking spiritual students in a world where all cultures are connected at almost the speed of light.    If there was any place, or group who could get the finer and more subtle aspects of such messages, it would be this place and group.   

  However Blink, o mystic Sage of the Afterlife Knowledge forum, have you read of the account wherein Yeshua displayed some pretty strong feelings about what was going on in the Temple market areas?    Do you know what was going on?    Animals were being sold for sacrifice to God.   Is it so hard to believe that a big part of him rebelling so strongly and even physically, was because not only they were turning a place of spiritual worship and contemplation into a business area, but also because they were selling animals, his friends, to be killed in horrible ways such as being burnt alive, all for stupid and dogmatic spiritual belief systems which not only supported such cruel activities, but sought to expand and proliferate such practices and activities?

  Certainly its more important what comes out of one's mouth than what goes in, but even more important are the activities that we either directly support or support by apathy or silent agreement, and which relates to having compassion for suffering or not.

Pretty simple isn't it?   One either has compassion, or one doesn't.  One either sees, recognizes, and lives that Oneness we have with fellow animals, or one doesn't.  One either lives in a self serving and destructive manner, or in a Greater self serving and constructive manner.   One either cares about that animal being tortured and cruelly killed enough to do something about it, or not.   

   Many who don't care enough, support their ways of being with inane and illogical plant arguments, or say that vegetarians are just being egostistical, arrogant, controlling, etc.    Or use quotes from Yeshua, taken out of a larger and rather important context.   

  Or who say things like,  Quote:


  If one "enjoys" life by and through supporting cruel, polluting, non-compassionate, activities towards beings which feel acute physical pain and deep emotional fear like we do, then i would suggest that such a person could stand to re-evaluate what "enjoyment" and enjoying life really means in a more universal sense.   

  If life is all about sensual pleasure, then yeah, go for it, because hey, it's all relative and about your rights and freewill right?   There is no such thing as constructive or destructive, positive or negative, slow vibrations or fast vibrations.   What need could there ever be for trite  concepts like self discipline or sacrifice?

   The standard of "spirituality" for all, is so genius in its simplicity, in its perfect balance of fluidity and absoluteness.   Do unto others as you would have done to you.    So what i'm saying is, if you wouldn't like to be cruelly caged, tortured, and then very painfully killed so that another human or other being can eat your flesh, then why would you do or support that being done to an animal who like you, also doesn't like it?   

  Do people really have a problem with understanding such a simple message?   Or would it sound better if it was coming from a non vegetarian who doesn't feel passionate about compassion to beings who cannot speak for nor defend themselves as most humans can in relation to what other humans do to them.

  Lordy Joe, i never said plants didn't have feelings.   Course they do, but its not like with us or a pig for example.

  Red is not the same color as blue, but they are both colors aren't they.   There is a similarity and yet a difference at the same time.   Same with plants, animals, and humans, they all come under the category of "life" and consciousness, but there are qualitative differences and unqiueness between them as well. 

  This is what i'm pointing out.  Killing and eating a carrot, is nothing like torturing and killing a pig for food.  How can you really honestly compare the two?   I get the sense that you are arguing semantics in order to defend beliefs which relate more to false self tendencies than to the real self. 

Again, i will ask you and i just want to you answer this one direct question.   It is spiritually ok for me to go to your house, cage you up, torture you for awhile, and then painfully kill you so that i can fill my tummy with your flesh?    I mean what's "wrong" with that, if you're the same  and feel exactly the same as a plant right?  Something tells me you wouldn't like that in the least bit. 

  I may "preach" and be overly preachy at times, but at least i practice what i preach.   So many here talk about PUL, love, till the cows get bored to death, but how many actually give enough of a hoot, to not support the torture and violent murdering of animals for food in a time and place where we don't actually need to do that to survive?   I only know of a few here myself.  And yes, i do have "ego", of course i do, i never claimed to be fully enlightened by any means.

  No, to many here their selfish, superficial material appetites are more important and necessary to them, than that animals extreme suffering or the contribution of one of the most polluting systems in place.    That's what you are defending and arguing for.  Don't try to wrap it up in a beautiful, "spiritual" guise of more awareness and lovingness than others.    That is the height of hypocrisy and the same thing that Yeshua lambasted the Pharisees, Sadducee's, and Scribes for.

AhSo, Having not personally been a carrot or a plant in a number of lifetimes, I just don't remember how it felt to be eaten as one. Now as for these farms you speak of that torture animals. I highly sudggest contacting your local SPCA or the police. I don't hang around pulling the wings off chickens. Or poking out the eyes of cows before they are killed. I do rip the life bring roots off plants as I pull them from the ground though.
Your more than welcome to eat me AhSo once I have dropped this body. Why would I care. In the meen time I would mosk likely revert to my survival instincts and at least attempt to save myself.
I don't mind your preaching AhSo. Everone has different beliefs. Your just as entitled to have yours as I am mine. At my place in 27 I have all sorts of animals. I don't kill them and eat them there. I have no need of food, plant or animal, OOB.
Now as for this Yeshua, I don't really have any idea what he really thought. I know there are countless books and people who wrote things saing that this is what he thought and what he taught, but I again don't have a recall of hearing him in person. Your entitled to have any beliefs you wish. Books and what some people have interrupted as what the true meaning of Gods lessions are changed over and over again, and by many religions. Most of them wrong or done in an effort to control the masses. My God would never judge me for eating meat (if he did judge). I am sure there are much more pressing issues. Of course my God dosen't judge at all.The paranoia of judgment or the return of Jesus to judge everone on earth is just so much bull. (My opinion only) My God would never have you kiss his butt in order to go to a heaven. Everones different. One thing that is so great here is that we all are allowed to express our beliefs without the fear of reprisal. That is a true blessing.
Joe

Without reading ALL of the posts here in this thread this is what I have come to believe....

Ever since the mid 1940s there has been a lot of UFO sightings....

Why?

Nukes baby....Nukes!

They are very interested in our ability to kill ourselves.
Some of these off world beings are very nice and really want to help....some are not so nice.

Honey, if I`ve missed anything, be sure to smack it up to my nose for that is truely one thing I have not a problem with. (The worst thing that can happen to me is if I die dumbfounded knowing that I had the chance to learn)

I will check out that link - Nanner promises!  (looking at old Dood)

Hugs a bunches!
Nannerghost

Nanner wrote on Dec 14^th, 2007 at 9:37am:

Well, I believe they travel faster then light.
They travel at the speed of 'Thought'.

Most of what I have read is that ETs are coming not so much from where as to from 'when'.
They are our Future Selves. Not all...some. There are at least 58 'races' of ETs that we know of.
So they would have a big stake on how we take care of this planet.

I also come to believe there is more then ONE timeline.  
We our present selves have screwed this up with things like the Philadelphia Experiment...

Exactlly Nanner...
'We' threw everything at these guys and they simply shut off the jets and their weapon systems...haha!

We have since then 'shot them down' with Lasers and Scaler Weapons.

Yes...We 'Back Engineered' this stuff and of course we back engineered the WEAPONS!

Notice since 1940's we all of a sudden had all this new tech? Transistors,Micro Chips and the like.... We are not 'that smart'.  We back engineered this stuff.
Same for Zero-Point Energy.  'They' are sitting on that because it can't be METERED to make a PROFIT.
B A S T E R D S! (Sorry, I Evaded the word filter...hehe...it was needed)

Nanner wrote on Dec 14^th, 2007 at 10:31am:


Simple:  FULL DISCLOSURE!
Link: http://www.disclosureproject.org/

There IS a Shadow Government(s).

But Old Dood, the objective of my journey is to "enlighten" my thoughts, worries, pain and discomfort not GIVE ME MORE REASONS TO ASK THE UNIVERSE FOR THE ULTIMATE FAVOUR! ...lol.. 

for now I am not too interested in other "forums" to chit chat with - I like my Moen friends quite well. They all seem to have the same intent in their mission and no one seems to make themselves sound better in spirit than anyone else. So - I guess you guys are stuck with me until my quest demands me elsewhere.


Nanner

Old Dood - The link that you gave me. I personally believe that you need to add that link TO EVERY LINK SITE AROUND THE WORLD! Part 2 is taking me up - up- and away!
I have to agree with the man, I`d grab "humans by the neck and slap the poop out of em too" considering that we don`t seem to understand, even though its really so clear. Thank you so much you old soul! Thank you so much.

Hey, listening to Part 3 - I feel that I now understand the one question I have always had in my own mind. The question I had asked at the age of 7 to my dad.
Dad why is there so many races on our planet? His answer: To learn the true meaning of love.

Part 3 - clearly answered my own question. IF we can`t raise our own AGAPE consciousness of love for another on our own planet, how in the hell can we even begin to develope such for other civilians on other planets? So thats why the different cultures, colors, sizes, shapes, languages of our humanbeings here. We are our own lesson - again - !

hawkeye wrote on Dec 13^th, 2007 at 7:19pm:


Ah, but you've become one with the plants and thus have reached the pinnacle of awareness
concerning them, haven't you? 

Quote:


  Joe, extreme, consistent, repeated animal brutality has been very well documented in many of the huge, mainstream agri food giants like IBF for example.   Even workers later report how much such animal brutality is fostered and encouraged in these environments.   It makes it easier to detach from their suffering so that one can do their job of murdering them.   Some workers who got out of those jobs have reported that they started to develop a deep and pervasive insensitivity to their fellow humans as well, starting getting real bad mean streaks going on.    Like attracts and begets like ever Joe.   Violence and inhumanity begets violence and inhumanity...  But that's where your typical burger comes from Joe, from one of those places.   NOT from a small family farm, which is still a real farm like they used to be in the day that my Grandfather still milked cows, etc.   

There is a big difference between these small, family type farms of yester year, and these giant food corporations.   I don't overall much mind the small, real farms, while there is still insensitivity and lack of compassion towards animals there, and they are treated as things and as commodities, there is not the extreme suffering that goes on as with the big corporate food places and system.

  Get the spuds out of your eyes and ears, and hear that beyond what you want to hear.   

Quote:


   Umm, that condition was not part of the question.  I'm talking about when you are still very much alive and healthy, and wanting to live.    I don't have much problem with a person finding an animal by the side of the road, and eating it.    Sure, meat's not the healthiest thing in the world for the human body, but ethically and spiritually speaking i see no deep harm in that.   

But that's not what i'm talking about.   I'm talking about me forcefully coming into your home, putting you in a tiny little cage with no fresh air, sunlight, at times force feeding you (like with what happens to many chickens), injecting you with all sorts of hormones, vaccines, antibiotics, degrading you so that its easier for me to eventually murder you, then actually painfully killing you, keeping you alive so the blood doesn't "taint" the meat, and then chewing on your carcass afterwards.   

   Sound "humane" in the least bit, appetizing at all? Hungry yet?   Still on your high horse of nothing wrong with supporting that kind of stuff?

  But the million dollar question is Joe, do you really honestly feel that you need to eat meat in order to survive and be healthy?   That's the important question, because if the objective answer to that question is no, then you are doing it for very, very superficial and selfish reasons.   You could call that judgment, but i call it a wake up call to humanity to become actually more "humane".

  You don't have to worry about "God" judging you at all, no, your own Soul, the part of you still more attuned to God, sees error and tries to balance it out.   Tis Karma Joe, tis the immutable law of energy resonation, and what goes around, always eventually comes around whether we like it or not.    The choice and freewill only comes in, in choosing when exactly to deal with what.   

  The point of all spiritual teachings, is to lesson an individual and humanity from attracting anymore difficult and suffering filled karma.   To learn how to attract joy, peace, and happiness.  To learn how to attune to Source.  This comes ONLY from using one's freewill in a positive, loving, compassionate manner towards all of Creation.  To consider other beings before oneself.   It's a "radical" message apparently, since Yeshua tried to teach that 2000 years ago and humanity is still struggling with that important insight since.   I mean, he only drove home his point with the ultimate "self" sacrifice and all. 

  Since i know you wouldn't consider doing the above caging, torturing, and painfully killing of other humans for non survival food, then why would you support a system which does that to beings much closer to us in nature and likeness than a friqqin carrot or head of lettuce?     Unless you would consider doing that to a fellow human as well? 

  Now, to play the devil's advocate for a moment, i see tough times coming for people, and especially for many, many Americans.   Food and clean water are going to become scarce in the near future.    There may be some survival necessity for people, even vegetarian types like myself, to hunt in order to survive..  However, it goes beyond just one's shallow and totally selfish appetites and tastebuds, and those like me while we may have to resort to it, we will do it a lot more in the manner of the Native Americans, with a lot of respect and gratitude to these beautiful creatures.   We will always try to kill them as quickly, as painlessly, and if possible without them physically knowing too deeply before hand.   

  I'm hoping i can get the point of transcending the need for too much food in the first place, before this necessity develops.   However, the clock is ticking, there isn't a whole lot of time, and i haven't raised my overall vibrations enough yet to subsist off very little food and be healthy and strong at the same time.   This may come, but not any time soon i think.   

Quote:
   

Pls. remain "calm, cool and collected my dearest" - inorder to teach, one can not reprimand. Anyone whom is not blind can tell that you are a teacher, for your qualities at heart told on you!  Got`cha. So I understand the issue as Joe wrote it and your reply - wonderful "communication" - thats where it begins. Alot of people feel as you do. But tell me two things to the above quote:
1) How did we get into THAT mess?
2) How do we get out of it?

Quote:

Alot of people feel as you do. But tell me two things to the above quote:
1) How did we get into THAT mess?
2) How do we get out of or change it?


Quote:


What can we do "right now" to change that?


Quote:
   

I disagree, the point of spiritual lessons is actually to "teach oneself" - even the teacher learns anew thru the experience of teaching. Have you noticed that no matter what spiritual lesson you`ve learned someone/something happened to extend the lesson ergo: When we begin to think the the lesson being taught is the "end all of info" - then er`ve missed the lesson.

All of the answers we "seek" are found within 1 word. Agape. Its answers every question, every problem we have.

I agree, we humans have serious problems however the more that multipy themselves practising Agape love - the quicker these problems are solved forever - the lesson concerning the earth realm is then learned.

Thump, thump, thump did you hear my heart beat,
Nanner

hawkeye wrote on Dec 14^th, 2007 at 6:15pm:

Excellent Point!
There is no 'Judgement' in that regard about ourselves.
Eating meat will not make us any 'less' spiritual or anymore 'sinful'.
The only judgement we will receive will be by our ownselves after we pass on....no one else will JUDGE us.

Gotta look at the bigger picture...Earth is Boot Camp/School. Simple as that.
I will still enjoy meat any time I want too and will not accept anybody saying I am less of a person for doing so....EVER!

I also make a wonderful Meatloaf too. Good wholesome winter food.  Along with my whipped potatoes. My secret to those is adding a block of creme cheese...hehe!

   Thanks for the last reply Joe.  I don't have anything else to say on the subject.  I think i've outlined all that i could have possibly outlined, and now its up to people's freewill and intuition. 

  I try not to, and rarely do, look down upon individual persons who eat meat...however, i do disagree with meat eating in general, as a belief, as concept, and as a way of life for those who don't need to in order to survive.   

  There is an important but subtle difference between the two.  One's more personal, and one's more impersonal.   One's more based on emotional judgment and attachment, and one's more based on pure 6th Chakra perception.   

  Jesus occasionally spoke some very critical words to others, particularly to those who had set themselves up as spiritual teachers or leaders to others and who taught the people false, limiting, and ego/self interest based beliefs.    While i'm no Jesus yet, he is my example and my teacher and i believe that love encompasses more than just nice, flowery, and supportive words to others.   Sometimes love is firm, sometimes even a bit critical on the outside.    It's the inner intent and motivations which matter more than a person's words, and i've found that few people can fully and truly read the inner heart, intents, and motivations of another, just by reading their typed words on an impersonal I-net forum.   

Only those who purely live love always, truly know all there is to know of love.  Jesus was one of those in my perception.   While i may be wrong and off on this, i don't think anyone here, including myself, is as Source attuned as Jesus was.   Hence, we still lie to ourselves, we still have limited and limiting perceptions, beliefs, and ways of being.  Only one who lives purely like Source, can fully and truly know Source.   It's all based on the impersonal and universal law of energy resonation.   There is no going around this condition for anyone or any consciousness. 

  Joyful attuning to you and everyone.   In the future, i will try to tone down my at times too blunt, direct, and imbalanced to Yang, energy and expression tendency.  This is one of the issues wherin i can become over impassioned about.  At the same time, i would caution others to not assume so much about how much i was personally judging individuals.   There was some brief and temporary judgment within, but not as much as would appear to those who cannot fully read my inner heart by my outer typed words.