Hello,

I believe I can take part in retrievals. From that point of view I've been trying to duplicate or subvert or retrain the retrieval process. If it is just a dream or lucid dream, I should be able to train myself to experience the conditions of the retrieval process, but apply them to other subject matter.  In this way I would prove to myself and tell others that this retrieval is just another sub- or un-conscious process. Or not.

I started doing retrievals as a result of training and encouragement I received here and in Bruce's books. The whole idea sounded icky--going out to chase after dead people who might not want to go along with my ideas! My own will was not convinced (until more recently.) So why did it go along with the retrieval plan?
Wouldn't my unconscious and subconscious be more interested in something pretty or lovely or beautiful? When I used to daydream it was of beautiful places with wonderful scenes, rainbows, buildings, and critters. Shouldn't it be easy to get back into those worlds now that OBEs are easier?

These are the aspects of the retrieval process, all working together, that I've been attempting to duplicate for those pretty purposes I used to have:

--to get immediate immersion into the process when I ask for it, or
if not immediate, to be unable to influence/ override a denial from another will;
---receiving instructions consciously from another will/intelligence; or receiving them so speedily that my conscious mind does not record the message, only  answers the messages;
--to have these dialogues with an intelligence that has a plan, a plan I cannot  foresee but which when followed is always successful and safe; I am lucid but not in control;
--to then take part in that plan;
and to be returned unharmed and slightly more confidant.

I have tried but I cannot use all those aspects of a retrieval to go where i want or do what i want while OB.

In lucid dreams I can willfully step in at a certain point but I don't have anyone to discuss with--- once I say/think what should happen, the other 'characters' comply.  Whereas in a retrieval, the retrievee can change his mind at any moment or the Helpers or Higher Self can take it into a new direction. I have a role but I'm not in charge, just part of a plan. Others' wills are not my own.

Does this prove anything---Don/B?

Bets

Bets,

In a sense the great enemy of retrievals is lucid dreaming due to the danger that our imagined retrievals might merely be lucid dreams fueled by wishful thinking about retrievals.   Lucid dream researchers like Stephen LaBerge have experienced OBEs, but are adament that these are nothing more than lucid dreams.  In my lucid dreams, I cannot control the reactions of my dream characters.   What is more telling is my inability to follow my rational agenda.   I can argue with these characters that they are mere figments of my imagination and they will stare at me as if I am psychotic.  In one lucid encounter with an old friend, Ralph, I initially mistook him for a stranger.   When I recognized him, I jabbed my finger into his chest to confirm that he was really there and experienced his chest as a hard surface.  How silly of me!  What I should have done is ask him if, when and where he had died!   But I don't seem to be rational enough in my lucid dreams to follow my waking agenda for these dreams.  

So my question to you is this: In your OBEs, are you able to ask preconceived questions like this: "When and where did you die?  I would like to verify your reality by checking your identity in an obituary".  I am not rational enough in my dreams to ask verifiable questions like this.   Mu guess is that if I were merely dreaming and asked this question, my unconscious would either make my dream character find an excuse not to answer or would cause that character to vanish.  Bets, you can ask your OBE "characters' any questions you want.  But can you even ask either helpers or retrievees about their earthly life?  Are you rational enough in your OBEs to follow a new agenda?

I like the fact that you explore both lucid dreams and OBEs and try to find distinctions between the two to see if OBEs warrant a status as a distinct level of consciousness.  Please continue to share your experiences in deviating from recommended patterns.   Do you have the ability to compose in ordinary consciouness, say, 5 questions to pose to your "helpers" and then ask all 5 during your OBEs?   If you can, I'd be very impressed and would suspect that verifications might be close at hand.

I used to get arngry at astral explorers for not asking the right questions that might lead to verifications and thus encourage others like myself to learn astral projection and retrievals.  But then I suspected that astral projectors are really either in a lucid dream state or an equivalent fantasy state that does not permit them to break from preestablished protoculs and ask such pointed questions.  I will be very interested in your future insights on such issues.

Don

yes bets the imagination can lead you to greater knowings through it's use.

Lucid means to be more clear, more aware. so the arguement when somebody says "it's only a lucid dream" is a moot point. for first you dreamed and did not remember you dreamed. then you dreamed and awoke in the dream that you dreamed.

that is what I call extending yourself into the collective areas of mind/Mind.

Now if we could only just become lucid while in C1, we would be doing just fine.

love, alysia