My twin soul Rob Roy wrote this at the request of a mutual soul mate who in turn was responding to a politically biased post on a Poet's forum.  I felt that it would be good to post it here as well.

"I think we often forget that knowing and believing are two very different things, and that the view from inside the television is very different than that seen from the sofa. Yet Americans I run into, upon hearing of my service in Iraq, rarely fail to try to impose upon me their unasked-for views on the subject, as though they know as well or better than I. Often, they use fallacious ruses such as free-speech rights claims, advanced degrees, and hearsay (from, supposedly, other veterans) as the authoritative basis for their ‘knowing.’

Those who are educated, for example, try to circumvent experience by argumentation as though intellectual abstraction, whether academic or artistic, is an adequate substitute for direct experience. They are extremely resistant to listening to those with experience because they insist on being reasoned with on their terms, as though rigorous abstraction is the revealer par excellence of truth. Full realization gained by direct experience of the the reality in question is the best teacher. Reality itself is the truth, and direct experience of it is the best instructor, however painful the lessons may be.

That’s not to say those who lack direct experience should not have opinions. Indeed, democratic societies require educated citizens, and with education comes considered opinion (or so we like to believe). However, those with opinions, however well considered, should have the humility to maintain respect for the profound difference between believing and knowing, between being inside the t.v. and sitting on the sofa (or writing on a message board).

“Many say that the troops in Iraq have become the target, and most of the violence is not "terrorism" in the Osama bin Laden sense of the word, but a nationalist fight against occupiers.”

The vast majority of those dying in Iraq today are private Iraqi citizens, not Coalition troops or even insurgents. A simple tabulation from the evening news reveals that. And yes, they are in fact targeted, and have been from the beginning. And, btw, there is no sense of ‘collateral damage’ from the POV of insurgents. The more, the merrier. At the very least: “Oh well. Who lives and who dies is the will of God.” I’ve seen this attitude expressed by Iraqis on both sides, first hand. It paradoxically accounts for much of both their bravery and cowardice.

I will add that there are many, many different groups fighting in Iraq, many with disparate and even conflicting goals. Not all of them are fighting the occupation. Some are simply fighting each other (i.e. Shiite vs. Sunni; those who have oil vs. those who don’t; ongoing family vendettas). Regardless, innocent Iraqis seem to be always in the way and they bear the brunt of the suffering, as do the family members of those fighting, including those of the insurgents, and, let’s not forget, the soldiers and insurgents themselves.

The issue, it seems to me, is not the legitimacy of the invasion or the success of democracy in Iraq, but rather the profound and unending suffering of the Iraqi people, and whether (or not) this suffering will result in a situation that is better for this people and the world, or at least one that both can live with. This is clearly a period of transition, of discernment, and it’s unfortunate in the extreme that this process entails the shedding of an ocean of blood and tears by everyone involved in this conflict. Until we see the end result, I don’t think there’s much anyone can say, except that which will help end this conflict in a way that meets the highest good of the Iraqi people and the world, and how we should, together, go about achieving that end." (written by Rob Roy)


Love
Irene   

I agree the core issue is to end the suffering of all sentient beings.

I also think it is highly important to see how we got into this situation.

I have passionate feelings about this war, a sense of outrage. But NOT towards the military. I just wish the policy-makers were not living in fantasyland.

Love to Irene & Rob Roy (and YOU)

          Tim F.

It's a curious side effect of freedom of speech that on some topics we sem to think we have an obligation to express our opinions. In school we are taught to have the "right" answer but not how to listen to all sides.

I don't think that the opinions that bend Rob Roy's ears are necessarily wrong but it is sad that they don't ask you what you think, given your experiences.

It is probably a fallacy to say we are in Iraq for some certain reason or another in terms of human behavior and history and philosophy and metaphysics, but we did get there by a rather stupid path (part of which was George W. wanting to avenge his father...how smart could that be?). I am just beginning to philosophically understand how spirit can use these puke-y situations for growth. If we did manage to eliminate war, would we lose a major growth path? The stories that come out of war are often incredible. I can only sit back and watch in wonder. I recall Joseph Campbell's telling that someone had told him the experience of the firebombing of Dresden was sublime. That gave me comfort as one of my own (obviously non-war) experiences was so terrible to me that it felt sublime, or the reaction it caused in me did, something no one around me could comprehend. Some things are so horrible they open to the transcendent. I bet that happens alot more than we know in combat. But nobody wants to hear about it.

Why are the Iraqi citizens so vulnerable to what is happening to them and what does that mean? I had a friend who used to express the thought of not understanding how the people in the death camps in WW II could outnumber the guards so much yet could not plan their escape. His claim was that if they had been Marines they would have found a way to escape! The idea being that Americans are less complacent (or used to be). Could the kind of thing happening in Iraq with the civilians happen in the US? We have a different mind set here. It is easy to remember the flight on 9/11 where the passengers took action...how very American of them!..just a thought...about cultural differences. Rob Roy, when people challenge you, what happens when you ask them what they would do in some particular situation? (sort of an extension of that old saying my father loved to quote about no atheists in a fox hole, based on his personal experiences).

I like something Alysia just quoted from herself on the book club thread:


Quote:

I try to console myself with the fact that everyone chooses their life plan. And that the love and compassion that we feel for the victims, no matter which side they are on, is what we are learning. I could go and on, but I won't. I just want to say that I hope that when all the men and women come home, that it won't be like after the View Nam war where Americans turned their backs on the returning troops.

With Love,
Mairlyn

Hi Rob,

  I really like the spirit behind your post. I don't know many things you know.

  You say that you understand that everything happens for the highest good. I don't have that understanding. I don't even have that as a belief. I don't disbelieve it either. I just don't know.

  It doesn't seem that things are pre-ordained down here on this mud-ball, that things are written in stone, that everything that happens here is following a prior plan. I may learn differently someday.

  I don't disagree with what you're saying about responding to suffering. If you have a heart and a conscience, how can you not respond to suffering? For myself, I do disagree with the idea that responding  to suffering and political engagement are inherently two different things. I'm not talking about someone imposing their views on another, blind to the presence of the other person. I'm talking about engagement, not argument.

 I believe an active interest in the political process is important. It doesn't have to be separate from spiritual work.

         With respect to All,

                                    Tim F.

 

O. K. Hands Up!!

I'm hijacking the thread!

....because one of you may be able to offer me understanding.

Here's a story. I know all the folks involved, the 'spiritual teacher', the 'sister' and the 'brother'.

She was at a talk by a famous teacher of non-duality named 'primordial peace'. Her bald head was wrapped in a scarf to sorta of hide the effects of the chemo treatments she'd been undergoing. At the end of the talk (which her brother wanted her to attend) there was space for questions. She raised her hand and was called on..

 "I'm afraid'', she said through tears. "My brother has been talking to me about committing suicide and I think he's going to do it"

 "Your brother is fine", the teacher said.

"No, I really think he's going to kill himself" she said.
"He's suffering".

"Bring me your brother's suffering" the teacher said, smiling beautifically (the dude DOES have a wonderful smile) "Bring me your suffering" he said.

'Don't give me that zen crap' she thought through her tears. She said no more to him. ("Tim", she later said to me. "There i am, obviously a cancer patient, and he's giving me that zen crap while I ask for help about my brother?" I am listening to this story through my own tears. Because we're talking about her brother, my friend Steve, who committed suicide a week after the talk with the teacher, primordial peace.

Now if that fellow is enlightened (and I have no reason not to think he isn't) he was just responding from his viewpoint. The big view that there is nothing wrong, no matter what. But let me say... it did not help that suffering person one f*cking bit. It seemed to make things worse.

My lesson from this is: f*ck enlightenment. Let me be there for others in the way that they need, not the way that I feel.

(Here's how you can help me)

What would you do? Everything is perfect as-it-is and.... there is suffering in this world.

(btw, I saw Steve in spirit, after his suicide... He WAS fine)

 Does any of this make sense?

          Love, Tim F.


(holy @*#$!!  What is a bird doing flying in my house right now? The windows are shut! Where did it come from?)

i'm back, after chasing a bird and finally getting it in a big paper bag and then freeing it before my cats got it, that's what got my attention was seeing the cats racing in front of my altar, but where the laptop is, where i'm typing, is right next to the cat door, all the windows have screens, the cats were sleeping when i came in a while ago and fed them, that bird came from nowhere, thank Spirit i finally got it in the bag and out the window, i need a break, gonna sit in front of the altar, lordy, i couldn't make this stuff up if i tried, i am sweating, i live across from a pub, maybe one cold beer... friends, i think i just got the feedback i was asking for. bless you all, i am so happy to save that bird, seeing it fly away into open air is a great gift, THANK YOU...