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Message started by TheDonald on Apr 28th, 2017 at 6:57pm

Title: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by TheDonald on Apr 28th, 2017 at 6:57pm
I always assumed that the Shroud of Turin was one of many fake Medieval relics. New evidence has persuaded me that the Shroud's authenticity (though unproven) is now a genuine possibility. I begin this thread with two YouTube videos that blow my mind and fire my imagination. I hope some of you will watch them both and express your opinion.

(1) This excellent BBC program effectively lays out the evidence for the Shroud of Turin's authenticity, apart from the problematic Carbon-14 Medieval dating that was thought to refute this. The scientists who performed the dating techniques recognize that more tests must be done that take all the evidence into account:

(2) The next video takes this one step further: Ray Rogers was a chemist who, along with others, performed the C--14 tests on the shroud and thought they proved the Shroud to be a Medieval fake. He initially ridicules the "religions loons" who dispute the rigorous scientific methods applied to the Shroud. But 2 challengers later persuade him that the sections cut for testing were the result of a very late reweaving of cotton strands into the original linen. Roger eats humble pie and confesses his inclination to now believe that the Shroud is the genuine burial cloth of Jesus. His reasons are compelling:

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by TheDonald on Apr 30th, 2017 at 2:20am

Carbon-14 dating from an unrepaired part of the Shroud remains necessary, but meanwhile the most recent, if less precise, dating methods date the shroud to a time range that overlaps with the time of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection:

The whole article needs to be read, but the exciting part about the results of the application of new dating techniques is quoted below:


"New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength. The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known.

FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components.

Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals.

The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates: FTIR = 300 BC + 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC + 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD + 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty. The average of all three dates is 33 BC + 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus' death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test. The scientists note that "future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test."

They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating.

These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua's engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, "Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy" by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled "A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud" by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book "Il Mistero della Sindone" (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian."

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by I Am Dude on Apr 30th, 2017 at 9:00am
Don, the video links don't work!

This may be the first video you mentioned:

I also found this video which mentions Ray Rogers admitting he was originally wrong:

"In this video we see Dr. Nitowski scientific research which reveals the original blood stains of Jesus magnified, soil and dirt test, fibres and blood cells, damaged knee of the Shroud, magnified human hair, human muscle, calcium and limestone, myrrh and aloes, pollen from flowers in Judea, Pontius Pilate coins on the eyelids, and much more relating to everything you would expect from the true burial cloth of Jesus known as, The Shroud of Turin.
Every mark, soil, image and stain on the Shroud is in perfect agreement with all the 4 gospels." (they cut this video into seven short segments, this is the first of seven)

This video mentions how the shroud was rewoven:

Regarding carbon dating, I've already done research into it and the proof of its unreliability is undeniable.

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by TheDonald on Apr 30th, 2017 at 5:18pm
My apologies for the error.  The true BBC documentary video in posted below.  I find it compelling evidence for the very real possibility that the Shroud of Turn is authentic:

Here is the correct URL for the 2nd Shroud video.  It establishes that the 1988 dating overlooked the fact that the cloth used for testing was from a medieval repair job:

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by SourceLover2 on May 7th, 2017 at 8:17pm
  Some years ago, I did a fair amount of reading about the Shroud, and both my intuition and logical side told me that it was authentic. 

    In any case, it's a fascinating historical artifact. Last I heard, the closest that scientific researchers have come to replicating a similar image with similar properties on linen fibers involved a very brief but very intense burst of UV.  But that was in vacuum conditions, so who knows?

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by TheDonald on May 9th, 2017 at 12:01am
There are so many phony relics in cathedrals and churches  the possibility of just one relic from the time of Christ is mind-boggling.  What makes the Shroud even more compelling than its authenticity is the theory that the only way the image could have been made was by the radiation energy of Jesus' resurrection.  As readers know, modern science can't replicate the image by any known means.  Any normal burn would create a deeper image in the linen.
J can't wait for a fresh C-14 dating on an unrepaired part of the cloth. 

Title: Re: New Evidence: Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
Post by SourceLover2 on May 9th, 2017 at 3:47am
  Regarding what I mentioned earlier, this was the basis of my reference, "Di Lazzaro and his colleagues at Italy’s National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (ENEA) conducted five years of experiments, using state-of-the-art excimer lasers to train short bursts of ultraviolet light on raw linen, in an effort to simulate the image’s coloration. The ENEA team, which published its findings in 2011, came tantalizingly close to approximating the image’s distinctive hue on a few square centimeters of fabric. But they were unable to match all the physical and chemical characteristics of the shroud image. Nor could they reproduce a whole human figure.

The ultraviolet light necessary to do so “exceeds the maximum power released by all ultraviolet light sources available today,” says Di Lazzaro. It would require “pulses having durations shorter than one forty-billionth of a second, and intensities on the order of several billion watts.”

  The above quote was excerpted from this article:

  (Should also be mentioned that the above experiments were done in vacuum conditions also)

Yes, I believe that the image was formed by the energetic process of Yeshua converting the physical matter of his former physical body, into a pure Light form that is much, much, much faster vibratory in nature. In a sense, you could say that his consciousness focused on the body, excited the atoms and molecules of same so much, so fast, that the matter disappeared into a flash of light.  Or in another sense, what first appeared as particles became waves of probability potential. 

   I would almost compare it to a fusion type process in a loose sense, in relation to Einstein's E=MC2 equation.  Matter being light energy condensed to a very slow vibration. Energy released from matter then being Light energy in free form, which no doubt would have a radiative aspect or process.

   Even if a new and better sample was taken, subjected to C14 dating process, and it was found that it came from the time of Yeshua--people who don't want to believe, still won't believe.  Maybe a relative few here and there might stop and actually consider the information with an open mind, but the data is already pretty powerful as is...

  I've been involved in some debates revolving around the Shroud with some atheistic materialist types and no matter how much evidence, care, and holistic logic (and in an impersonal way) I put into the debate, these folks found some way to disregard what I was saying and to continue to believe what they wanted to and already did believe. 

  I've found that most humans don't really want truth in a raw, undiluted form, but rather they want their preconceived, or more self comfortable, version of truth.  And this goes for both people open minded to spiritual reality and those closed minded to same.  The latter folks are particularly stubborn and fixed, but I've met many of the former whom also prefer to believe what they want or preconceive to believe, rather than evidence, holistic logic, and more raw truth. 

   In short, humans are hard to retrieve from stuck, false, distorted, and/or limiting belief systems. If we weren't, then this world would have grown up and humanity would have graduated collectively a long time ago. 

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