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Message started by Matt1 on Dec 27th, 2004 at 2:17pm

Title: Nagging Concern
Post by Matt1 on Dec 27th, 2004 at 2:17pm
Hi, it must have been a good few years when i first found this site. I always come back to it as it I found it so interesting and it seems to answer many of my questions.

My latest is something that has always bothered me. My biggest fear has always been that the only thing that awaits us in death is oblivion. Reading this site and listening to my heart often negates this fear pretty quickly!

The question i want answering is when we are asleep and wake we sometimes (if we dont recall our dreams) have no memory of the time we are asleep, in essence do we experience oblivion or not?? If so, does that mean that oblivion is possible in death  :-/

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Shirley2 on Dec 27th, 2004 at 4:28pm
My personal opinion:

When we sleep and don't remember..we simply don't remember.. ;D

There are many waking moments I don't remember.  Today, for example.  I was driving along the freeway, and realized I didn't remember the last several, that's a bit scary..but, I was not nonexistant..I just don't remember..

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Simon on Dec 27th, 2004 at 7:47pm

Your message rang large bells with me, I too found this site sometime ago, and I too still have thoughts of oblivion in relation to sleep and being dead.

Personally for me after my first exploration into the afterlife left me distant from it. Now sometime later it may be right to explore again for me, maybe that is what you need to do? :)

Peace love empathy

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by freebird on Dec 27th, 2004 at 8:00pm
I have also wondered why people can be totally unconscious during portions of sleep or when they faint or are knocked out, if there really is consciousness separate from the nerve impulses in the brain.

For example, when I was a child, I once fell off some gymnastic equipment head first and hit my head on the floor, and was out cold for a minute or so.  I did not have any spiritual experience, but only had total unconsciousness.

One theory that makes sense to me is that if the soul is still attached to the body, then one will experience unconsciousness if there is little or no brain activity.  But it is only when the soul actually detaches that the influence of the brain no longer matters.  For analogy, imagine you are in a house with all the shades and shutters pulled over the windows so that no light can come in.  If you're in the house in that situation, it is dark, but when you go outside, then you can see the light.  Maybe it's the same way with the brain: if the brain is turned off but your soul is still in the brain (or attached to it) then you are unconscious, but if the soul leaves the brain then you are conscious again even though the brain might not be doing anything.

What do other people think of this idea?


Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Matt1 on Jan 2nd, 2005 at 1:25pm
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by hiorta on Jan 2nd, 2005 at 1:50pm
I don't think oblivion is possible.
I've had a 'near death' experience and by comparison, current conscious awareness is much nearer to oblivion.
We experience consciousness via the brain, through which our experiences must filter.
We then get variations to these experiences due to illness, tiredness, ageing, drugs - medically prescribed or not, emotion, our desires and our fears, and so on.
Individual ability to recall events in normal daytime' consciousness varies within the individual as well as between people.
The ability to recall dream experiences, whether in total or partially is a hit or miss affair, again affected by all the things mentioned above.
The worry factor seems to preclude the very thing we wish to clarify.
What we might call unconsciousness seems to be a stage where recall is beyond reach.
Consciousness would appear to be seated in the Soul and not the brain, therefore is also eternal in essence.

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Azreal on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 12:09pm

I am curious about your NDE would you care to explain what it was like or what you experience - if not then I fully understand - I am trying to do my own research and some sources I have found have been really hyped up and unsattisfying.


Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by alysia on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 3:27pm
Hiorta, very good description of consciousness you have given, please continue sharing. you have probably read Bruce and Monroe? what you say about our waking consciousness as closer to oblivion than not, is right on, only it has been described as "limited" for the reason of zeroing in on a particular experience or probability in place for the life. Being single pointed in life I suppose has been under my microscope more than not. :) yes, please post about NDE should you desire, as each one is colored by the experiencer and if you put them all together you can see a common thread. love, alysia
ps. I think you are from Japan, am I right?

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by hiorta on Jan 4th, 2005 at 2:40pm
I had previously tried to put this into words, so this is a 'paste' of that attempt.

This experience began with hospital admission to have the gall – bladder removed and an umbilical hernia repaired.
The gall – bladder job was expected to be regular keyhole surgery, but it was pointed out that it was sometimes necessary to
 ‘revert to the old method’ but that this could not be determined beforehand.
I was not apprehensive of the pending elective surgery - I usually quite enjoy a short break of this kind.
I mention this only to eliminate any possible connection between fear and the event itself.  

At some stage during surgery, I suddenly found myself looking down on proceedings from ceiling height or a wee bit
higher- (the ceiling wasn’t there). I was watching what I quickly realised was myself lying motionless on the table with green clad
figures around it – but it wasn’t really me – I was here.
I was instantly aware of my last memory of going off for the op. and was trying to make sense of this new development.

It soon dawned on me that I had an unusual clarity of mind and was completely fascinated by what was happening. I
was ‘ here’ not ‘there’. What I was looking upon was like an old shell that somehow was familiar – like an earlier edition.

Then, to get a better view, moving to the right a little was necessary….it immediately happened! It is possible to move just
by thinking. I wasn’t aware of any sound or voices.
I then remembered that I had read something of this kind of thing. (‘Life after Life’ Raymond Moody)  I realised that it IS

It would be around this point that what I was looking at just changed.
Suddenly I was in a muted pale green sort of environment.
This was the main light colour and I had never seen anything like this before. The light had a quality rather than intensity
although it was very bright, but not in the slightest overpowering or unpleasant. It was natural light.
The really strange thing about it was that this light provided sustenance.
Whatever nourishment was required simply came from within this light.
The feeling of indescribable well – being and comfort was completely overwhelming. This is central to it all.

I was standing now, rather than sort of floating, as before.
This was a place of healing and restoration and at some level it seemed I already knew this.
I was not aware of anyone else in this place.

Next, came the awareness that many folk were gathering just behind, out of view, all of them having been connected to me in some capacity at some time.  I didn’t see or hear anyone. Just ‘knew’ it.
A very strong sense of not to turn round was present.
Also, realising I could absorb a vast amount of simultaneous information through points located all over my body (I had a body) - the ankles in particular. It was possible to know what the folk behind were collectively thinking! The realisation came that I had a choice of sorts to return or remain, but at the same time, it wasn’t really an option. This seemed to be connected to the sense of not to turn round!

The next recollection was the recovery unit and the indescribably overpowering sense of loss and disappointment that accompanied this return to the everyday mind. The greatest loss was the absence of this miraculous light, which illumined not just the place, but the very soul, it seemed. The subdued lighting in that ward was, in contrast, like the despairing darkness of deepest winter.

This is a very sketchy account of the whole thing and I cannot capture the essence of it at all. There was the feeling of exhilaration, of freedom and a complete absence of fear (of anything). I have no idea of how long this lasted, although it seemed for ever, but the effects of it are timeless. This was a completely natural experience and one I wish I could repeat.
If this is ‘death’, then I’m for it!

Some conclusions:

I was ‘conscious’ throughout, although deeply anaesthetized. I knew what was happening, knew I was having surgery.
I knew who I was, with full memory of all immediate matters. There was no physical sensation at all, but mental awareness of everything -  but with a different - a greater, enlarged consciousness now operating – with no effort on my part.

Post surgery, I asked and was told that the gall bladder was detached using keyhole methods, but was unable to be removed this way. As the umbilical repair was to be done anyway, it was decided to remove the now separated gall bladder through this opening. Somehow, it slipped into the abdomen and had to be retrieved manually.
I have no awareness of any of this at this juncture, but things must have begun about this point.
The surgeon was fairly open, though guarded, about events – the ward staff all tight lipped.
Hospital policy, perhaps, but I wondered if this was to prevent or minimise possible litigation.

The whole experience has been of immense benefit to me and I would be happy to return there any day of the week.
I know I have ‘seen’ what lies ahead of this chapter of life.
I have no wish to convince anyone of anything, nothing to prove.

I have deepened as a person as a result, with some great sense of the eternal aspects of our continuing consciousness, unbroken, even for a split second.
There was no sense of ‘time’ – it just didn’t exist – nor were any ‘doorways’ or walls of any kind to pass through. You just ‘were’ where you had to be.
The folk behind were ‘real’ people, although I didn’t look round. Relatives, family, colleagues, like minded folk, etc.

A great feeling of elation, of well being, an overwhelming feeling of a ‘Love’, a place I didn’t want to leave, and a residual feeling of a certainty of being, are the main features, but I’m trying – and failing - to  describe something that is beyond words.

What of religion? Forget it, I’d say. Those who trade in it, who advocate it, have no idea! It is man - made, but if it should produce well rounded more tolerant people, willing to help each other (all life really, there is no difference in essence between life forms, all have a common source and are therefore related), then it will serve a very useful purpose.
We just don’t need the doctrinal approach at all.
A hindrance to understanding – an abomination!

Alysia, I'm not in Japan, but have been there.
I was born and live in a country with a similar landscape

I hope this might be of interest.

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Lights of Love on Jan 4th, 2005 at 3:30pm
Dear Hiorta,

What a beautiful and lovely experience you had.  Thank you so very much for sharing it with us.

Love and Peace,
Kathy :-)

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by alysia on Jan 4th, 2005 at 3:58pm
;D Hiorta, you express yourself very well even though you say you have no words to capture the experience there are some here who understand exactly what you mean by the light you experienced around you which sustained you. this is one of the common threads about NDE that lends believability to those who wish to believe but cannot as yet. your post speaks to my heart also and gave me great joy ;D  isn't death an adventure after all? ;)
thanks for writing so well too. :D

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Marilyn Traver on Jan 4th, 2005 at 6:31pm

Thank you for writing about your NDE. If only more people knew what NDE experiencers see and feel, there would be fear of death at all. Bless you.  :)

Mairlyn :D

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by freebird on Jan 4th, 2005 at 8:19pm

Thanks for sharing your NDE testimony.  Very interesting!

I would like to ask one question if I may, which I always wonder about whenever I read an account of an NDE by anybody.  My question is, how does the level of consciousness/awareness/alertness compare to being normally awake or being asleep and dreaming?  During your NDE did you feel equally conscious/aware/alert as you do when you're awake?  Or was it a lower, foggier level of consciousness more like dreaming?  Or was it actually a greater expansion of consciousness beyond what it feels like to be normally awake in the physical body?


Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by hiorta on Jan 5th, 2005 at 2:51am
First, may I apologise to Matt1 for moving off his thread. Sorry, Matt, it wasn't intentional.

Freebird, the  clarity, sharpness and 'vision' of mind was 'way beyond anything I had ever experienced.
Complete recall - instantly - of what you wanted was the reality. Nothing could be forgotten.
I wish that this could be my day to day state of mind. lol.
Which suggests that memory is total and complete, it's the recall that's the problem.

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by Linn  Conyers on Jan 5th, 2005 at 9:04pm

     Dear Hiorta,

                        Thank you so much for sharing this information.  You write>
                      This was a place of healing and restoration and at some level it seemed I already knew this.
               I sensed when I read this portion, that is exactly what spirit  world was doing , healing you to be able to return to the physical world. The color green is for healing.

          You write>Also, realising I could absorb a vast amount of simultaneous information through points located all over my body (I had a body) - the ankles in particular.

               There are chakras present at every joint., again thank you very much for posting your experience, excellent  description.   love linn

Title: Re: Nagging Concern
Post by freebird on Jan 5th, 2005 at 10:04pm

wrote on Jan 5th, 2005 at 2:51am:
Freebird, the  clarity, sharpness and 'vision' of mind was 'way beyond anything I had ever experienced.
Complete recall - instantly - of what you wanted was the reality. Nothing could be forgotten.

Hiorta, thanks for answering my question.  That sounds wonderful!  I am always glad to hear this from people describing their NDEs, because it confirms that they are not just dreams or hallucinations, and it gives me more hope that the afterlife is a glorious expansion of consciousness and the attainment of true freedom.


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