https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOF7SFDf1u47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOF7SFDf1u47

fyi, your links are duplicated (e.g., they are the same video) ...

Alan ... I think that you continue to come from a place of fear about the afterlife. I mention it this way as the last time you posted, I asked you a question about your experience (e.g., you had a fearful response in it and became blocked) but you did not respond my query.

I have never experienced "hell" in my own non-physical travels. I have had some odd experiences, which I sometimes have had a fearful responses to. I have shared some of those experiences in my Subtle Travel thread. Overall though, I have found nothing to fear in exploring the afterlife, except maybe holding (fearfully) onto my own misunderstandings of it.

I mention it this way as Bruce Moen talks at length in his books about how we interpret our experiences as we perceive them. And using Moen's practices of perception and interpretation, heaven and hell are simply labels from some 3D human's interpretations of perceived locales experienced in the afterlife. And maybe even more importantly, those two labels were used by the person in the video to interpret their own perceptions of their NDE experience to locales of the afterlife.

Additionally, NDE's are "one time" experiences, and often involve some form of trauma to promulgate the experience (e.g., a car crash, violence, an explosion, emergency surgery in a hospital). I mention this limitation specifically, as I have found that there is often a benefit (in both perception and interpretation) in being able to go back or return to a non-physical locale (e.g., many experiences) without the over-arching condition of trauma, extra drama, etc.

One of the most experienced travelers that I know (who has broadly documented his experiences about what people might label as "heaven and hell") is Jurgen Ziewe. However, he does not use those labels and he does not use a lot of drama when he presents his experiences with the non-physical. His web site is here:

http://www.multidimensionalman.com/

He has been traveling for 40 years now. He has hundreds (maybe even thousands) of experiences, and he has seen / experienced some of the lower levels of the afterlife. I do not know of anyone who has documented more on this topic. Ziewe however mostly talks about the higher energy levels of the afterlife. So, I thought that I would mention him here (for everyone). His web site and books and YouTube videos are filled with these types of experiences.

I hope this is helpful.

Personally, I have found nothing "fearful" about the vibrational state. I experience that phenomena quite frequently. I can pretty much induce that state when I want. And, it is certainly a clue that a separation from the physical body is "in progress". I actually enjoy it.

Yes, I understand a bit already about what is blocking or impeding you. That is why I spoke up about the fear presented in your experiences. It seems to be "the common thread" in them.

Can you see how you are continuing to prove my observation about your fears by your continuing to present your fearful perceptions of your initial encounters to me? Your fear seems to be producing more fear. And it may be "a tell" that you just posted your NDE in great detail on another thread. That seemed like a very fearful experience for you. It is like you are "attracted to fear". Do you see?

Again, fear is not good or bad. Scaring others with stories of doom does not assist them. Fear is an emotional response, and a sign of blockage. However, an important characteristic of fear is that ... fear only breeds more fear. And sometimes fear is only dissolved by seeing things differently (e.g., the hag becomes a real person that you know, the death that you fear is not death at all but a transition, the vibrations are simply a step to freedom from the physical apparatus and its limitations).

Have you read any of Bruce Moen's books? Are you familiar with what Moen suggests about the roles and differences of the Perceiver and the Interpreter in our experiences?

First ... as I already suggested to you, I have shared some of my own experiences on the 'Subtle Travel' thread. So, you can "enlighten yourself" there, if you sincerely want to know some of my experiences. I had my first experience with a non-physical being over 44 years ago.

Second, I did not presume about your fears. You continue to misunderstand the elements of Bruce Moen's work which I highlighted. To make this clearer, I responded to "your interpretations of your experiences" (e.g., which you generally present as fearful and evil and traumatic). So, it is your interpretations which are showing me your fear of your experiences. This is why I asked you specifically if you understood the difference between perception and interpretation - especially as Bruce Moen used those terms. I know now that you do not know that difference. However, this is one of the gems and great insights in Bruce Moen's work.

Third, I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt when you shared that you had 16 years of experience, but I now see that you have not read any of Bruce's books. And therefore, you really cannot recognize or understand his work, because you do not really know what he shared. Furthermore, it is clearly NOT true what you stated about Bruce Moen only sharing his work with people who buy his books. Actually, he FREELY shared many of his own experiences, techniques and book excerpts here on the forum over the years. Actually, there are whole sections of this forum dedicated to that. So, you are full of BS on that point. Here's one example of how Bruce shared from his books freely here.

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/articles.html

Finally, I am wondering if you are on some type of mental health medication (e.g., maybe manic-depressive). Those psychotropic medications can alter brain chemistry severely (e.g., like turning certain switches on and off). Is that part of what's going on here? It would explain some of your comments and candor.

If you just make mention even once again about my bipolar illness and make assumptions that you are some sort of a medical expert about it and are qualified to give advice about it, I will leave this forum forever!!!

------------------

Alan ...

First, you do not know who I am. Please consider that for a moment.

I will disclose to you that I have published community studies in the area of mental illness. My career involved working with organizations to expand mental health services in several communities here in California. For example, I designed and helped implement the first substance abuse treatment program (with mental health services) for our county's jails over 15 years ago. I also was responsible for independently evaluating its clients (as a group). Our county jail population was riddled with inmates who presented a dual diagnosis (a mental health challenge and a substance abuse problem). So, my work also involved designing protocols for the distribution of psycho-tropic medications in the program. And, my curriculum vitae in this particular program area (mental health services) is about 5 pages long. I am more than qualified to discuss the topic of mental health in a public forum.

And, please do not confuse my question with any form of malevolence on my part. I had a strong sense that 'your mental health challenge' might be an influence in our conversation. I perceived that, so I asked you for clarification or confirmation. Furthermore, I did not want to add my own interpretation to my initial perception of your health challenges ... especially prematurely before knowing whether you had a mental health challenge. So, I respectfully asked you. The reason (my intention) that I asked you about this challenge was to bring clarity to what is happening in our conversation. By doing that, I did not "out" you or judge you inappropriately. I asked you (e.g., letting you choose disclosure). And while I can see that you have feelings and defensiveness about this, I additionally did not diagnose you. Again, I asked you if that was a part of your experience.

Can you see that because of my vocational experience in developing mental health programs, that I might naturally sense what your mental health challenge is, define it, and mention its potential influences upon our conversation?

If you want to leave, then that is your choice. However, understand that I cannot be "guilted" into thinking that I somehow am responsible for that, OK? I simply asked you a clarifying question relevant to our rather difficult conversation, as you began to criticize Bruce Moen without merit. My actions ended up shedding some light upon what is going on here. Can you see that without trying to painting another dark canvas of being a hopeless victim here?

Second, I have never suggested that "there is not evil". I have suggested that you tend to overly emphasize and interpret things as evil, traumatic, dark, etc.

Alan,

As Moderator I’m going to suggest that you calm down.  You’re already treading on thin ice that will result in you getting banned again if you're not careful.  I’d like to remind you that you yourself have mentioned your bipolar illness on this forum, so please don’t act like it’s not out in the open.  I don't feel in any way that ST's question in that regard was inappropriate considering your disposition and affect on this forum. 

Because you made comments about Bruce that I and I'm sure others disagree with, I feel I must use it as an opportunity to educate.  After all, this is Bruce's forum.  Why do you continue to participate here if you have never and will never familiarize yourself with Bruce's work?? 

One glaring difference between you and Bruce is that Bruce was a teacher.  He didn’t just publish his experiences.  He never boasted either.  When he discovered his passion for wanting to teach others what he’d learned, he found a way to teach it so that anyone who was willing to learn, could. 

And what’s wrong with Bruce having made a living from his books and workshops?  If it weren’t for him doing that, I wouldn’t have met him!  If I hadn’t met him who knows what my life would be like today.  Certainly not the same.  Lots of people wouldn’t have learned from him nor had many experiences.  I feel grateful every day for having known Bruce personally.  I can personally say that he was the real deal.  He was never out trying to fool anyone.  The first thing he always said in his workshops was “Don’t believe a word I say.”  He wanted people to do their own work in finding their own knowledge and forming their own beliefs.  And he never said that his way was the only way.  Alan, I feel like you dismissing Bruce’s life’s work and personal experience and knowledge simply because your path has been different, is like criticizing a man who decides to open a pizza shop for not being a doctor.  Bruce wasn’t trying to be everything to everyone; he just taught what he knew in the simplest way he could.  We’re definitely not all teachers.  But Bruce was a great one. 


Quote:

Bruce Moen never experienced a real Out of Body episodes like I have. His way of doing things was to imagine something until it became real. (Which in my opinion  were not real but imaginary)

This is incorrect, Alan.  Bruce did have a few OBEs in his life, but it was not his goal and is not what he taught.  He didn’t want that “holy grail” to be the goal of his work.  He simply wanted a way for any ordinary person who may or may not have any prior experience or ability in OBE to be able to learn to contact and communicate with the Afterlife.  His imagination method of doing it was a way for anyone to do that.  But I can personally attest to the fact that his methods can actually lead to an OBE. 

Bruce never wanted me to tout that his techniques will lead to an OBE, and I never did do that, it’s just that I couldn’t help but notice – and be extremely excited about! – the fact that the out-of-body state was an occasional byproduct of using his methods. 

If you had had the interest and open-mindedness to have read his books or taken one of his workshops you would have learned so much.  There is so much more.  As well, each person has their own capacity and capability for bringing more to the table, for we are all creative beings with so much to learn and so much to share.  Using myself as an example, early on I discovered that Bruce’s tools and techniques for exploring the Afterlife were apropos in explaining how my psychic ability works and why, which has helped me in further developing my skills.  One of my greatest honors was Bruce telling me how much it meant to him what I was learning, doing, and teaching because of what I’d learned from him.  He hadn’t been aware of other applications but because of me he realized how much further his techniques could be utilized. 

There’s so much about perception that you’re blocking yourself from knowing because of your lack of open-mindedness.  My advice is try looking at it from another perspective.  Instead of looking at the imagination method as a way to work your way toward what’s real, you should understand that by distracting the conscious mind you are allowing the subconscious to take center stage.  Perception comes through at a subconscious level, and awareness is what we are able to allow into our consciousness.  It’s a gentle balancing act.  Bruce’s methods are a simple, easy way to learn that balancing act with just plain old patience, practice, and persistence.  If you haven’t tried his methods and learned the finer points of what he taught with them, then you really have no leg to stand on in making yourself sound superior.

Bruce was a very laid back, easy-going, humble man who could talk to and relate to anyone, and he was an amazing teacher.  You are boasting about all your experience and writings, Alan, but I find it hard to believe that you’re teaching anyone anything through your writings and posts.  Bruce was a man who lived his life being driven by his curiosity, and then realized how badly he wanted to teach people what he’d learned.  Not teaching them what to think or believe, but just simply giving them the basic tools and techniques that would allow them to satisfy their own curiosity in their search of knowledge. 

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12^th, 2018 at 6:28am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOF7SFDf1u47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOF7SFDf1u47

Vicky ...

I was glad that you spoke up about your own experiences with Bruce. I never had the opportunity to chat or dialogue with Bruce, so I was feeling a bit out of sorts in my dialogue with Alan. As a result I was giving Alan the benefit of the doubt, as he held forth some very extreme ideas ... and also boasting a long (16 years) familiarity and even relationship with Bruce. However, I did not know that he had been banned from the forum in the past. If I knew that, I would have simply ignored his aggressive comments and quietly reported his criticism of Bruce.

As he became more extreme and critical of Bruce, I felt the need to continue to speak up. However, I noticed that I was becoming exhausted emotionally. Eventually, I perceived why that might be happening so I asked Alan about the possibility of a mental health challenge. My radar kind of turned on. And while he did indirectly acknowledge his bi-polar disorder, it appears that he did not want others to know about that and has since deleted all his comments.

Thanks for your intervention.

Hi Subtle Traveler,

Uh oh, I see what you mean.  Thanks for pointing out that Alan has deleted his posts within this thread. For people who browse the site, it gets confusing if they are not aware that posts were deleted, and of course it makes the other posts seem weird.   

Despite the deleted posts from Alan, I’m going to leave this thread here, as is, because I think it’s a shame to delete valuable posts within a now defunct thread.  We can just allow this thread to die, unless anyone wants to continue talking about the things you and I spoke about that naturally came along in the conversation.  I value both your contributions as well as my own!

And thanks too for appreciating my speaking about Bruce and on behalf of his work.  I will always take any opportunity I can to stand up for not only my own beliefs but for those of Bruce as well.  After all, this is his site and people come here with questions and searching for the very thing that Bruce spent his life searching for and teaching.

When Bruce was moderating the site he typically made a post letting everyone know when he had to ban someone and the reason why.  As moderator, I’d like to do things a bit differently in that regard.  If there was a big uproar in the forums with people’s complaints, then yes I think an announcement is appropriate to help the peace.  But when it’s behind-the-scenes stuff that’s going on I just keep it private.  I had given Alan appropriate warnings about the forum rules that he was breaking, the same repeated things he’s been banned for in the past, and so that’s why I had to ban him again.  It wouldn’t be fair if I allowed him to sneak around the rules just because he’s a long-time member. 

Alan, you’re more than welcome to be here and I for one appreciate the long-timers who are still here, those who post and those who just read, but as Bruce always said, "Everyone just needs to play nicely!"

;)