Here's some interesting logic paradox/contradiction in relation to Don's assertion that there were no Jewish sects of Yeshua's time that believed in either literal, direct reincarnation, nor a Disk type incarnation.   

     Quote from the Berean Study Bible on Biblehub regarding the mission of John the Baptist:

   "19 And this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He did not refuse to confess, but openly declared, “I am not the Christ.” 21“Who are you then?” they inquired. “Are you Elijah?”* He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” He answered simply, “No.”

*My use of bold

  In every different Bible translation and version that I've so far looked at as regards verse 21 in the above, they all say the same thing:  They are all asking if John was literally Elijah in the flesh, or in other words, Elijah reborn. In all versions, he simply says "no".

  The very fact that they are asking him this direct question to begin with, more than implies, that some of these Jewish Rabbi's and religious men, had a belief in some form of reincarnation of the Soul aka the eternal essence within a person.   
    Some of the people around there then, knew that John had been born to Zachariah and Elizabeth, and hence, that he had been born and had grown up. No doubt that these Rabbi's had heard some about his history and background from these people, because John was making BIG waves with his dramatic acts of intense preaching, then disappearing, then coming out and preaching, and then disappearing. (Meaning, John was getting a certain amount of attention and focus at the time, which is why these Rabbi's were even sent up there the "backwards" part of their nation).

    If Don was correct in his strident, confident assertions that none of the Jews of that time had such beliefs, then why the heck would they be asking John these pointed, direct questions if they had no conception nor belief in such possibilities to begin with?   

  Thing is, I didn't do any in depth research on this issue, but simply on an intuition/nudge, and some remembrance, I remembered that some of the Rabbi's had directly asked John if he was Elijah. And so I looked it up, and sure enough, plain as day, they ask him if he is literally Elijah. 

   But then Yeshua does say this (from Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Matthew 11, "11 From the days of Yohannan The Baptizer until this hour the Kingdom of Heaven is led by force and the violent are seizing it." 13 "All The Prophets and The Written Law have prophesied until Yohannan. 14 And if you will, he is Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear."

  So what's really going on here?  It seems clear that John is not the literal, direct reincarnation of Elijah, but that he and Elijah are powerfully connected, but individual, self aware, freewill Souls that are part of the same larger, Spirit/collective Disk self. 

   This fulfills in a holistically logical way, the seeming contradiction between John's answers and Yeshua's.  Sure, one can invent some theory that holds little water and doesn't conform to holistic logic, but to this self, it's as plain as day.  John and Elijah are fellow Disk members, whom came for similar reasons. 

  And so Don's elaborate, but fragile House of cards, comes tumbling down when exposed to a little holistic, internally consistent logic, free of preconceived, religious institutional beliefs that stem from some 1900 years of many people's changing interpretations and human made doctrine built up around the basic scripture itself. 

  Oh, and if you believe in Karma, then John getting murdered/beheaded, makes a lot of sense, if he and Elijah were part of the same Spirit/Disk.  Why do I say that, because Elijah was involved in killing MANY priests.  "40 Then Elijah said, “Capture the prophets of Baal! Don’t let any of them run away!” The people captured all the prophets. Then Elijah led them down to the Kishon Valley, where he killed them." 

    Did Elijah need to murder these people? Did God ask or tell him to?   No, he did it out of his own ego, his own self righteous anger, and his own misperceptions.  In other words, he failed to live up to the Christ pattern big time here. If Yeshua had been in Elijah's place, would he have murdered these priests?  NO!

  And so, karmically speaking, it was fitting indeed, that Yohannan/John agreed, before he came in, to pay the karmic debt of one of his Disk members, so that he and his Disk could grow more towards the Creator. 

Justin: "They are all asking if John was literally Elijah in the flesh, or in other words, Elijah reborn. In all versions, he simply says "no".  The very fact that they are asking him this direct question to begin with, more than implies, that some of these Jewish Rabbi's and religious men, had a belief in some form of reincarnation of the Soul aka the eternal essence within a person."
   
"If Don was correct in his strident, confident assertions that none of the Jews of that time had such beliefs, then why the heck would they be asking John these pointed, direct questions if they had no conception nor belief in such possibilities to begin with?"

No academic commentary outside the New Age Ghetto makes that claim!  I have already answered your question, but you have not bothered to read my reply carefully enough to grasp its force.  Reincarnation implies a second incarnation after a  death of the prior personality.  Elijah never died; rather he was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kings 2).  So his return was not expected through a reincarnation any more than Jesus' Second Coming is expected as a reincarnation.  At Jewish Passover feasts, a chair is left empty in case Elijah should return to join the celebrants; and Elijah appears (unreincarnated) with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:4-5). 

Some Jews speculated the Jesus was Elijah revived, but "revived" not through reincarnation, but through bodily resurrection (Mark 6:14-16).  John's mission was to activate Elijah's prophetic role (Luke 1:16-17) just as Elisha did before him, not to serve as Elijah's reincarnation.  That is why John denies that he is literally Elijah returned. 

 

 

 

 

  You think those Rabbi's that were directed to go to where John was, hadn't talked to the people around that area, some of whom, probably knew his birth name and some of his family connections? 
     It's more than probable, that even before they directly talked to him, they tried to investigate what people know about this person making big waves.
    Again, you are trying to dance around what is plain, holistic logic.  By those Rabbis' asking him, are you Elijah, they weren't thinking that he came out of the sky and all that.
    Geez, you don't even allow for ET intervention being part of human history and the Bible, despite that Elijah clearly, had some powerful ET oriented experiences. 
      You really think, that someone who murdered multiple people, experienced the glorified, eternal body that Yeshua earned?   Seriously, you actually believe this? Elijah was prophetic, but he was a flawed human being, whom didn't always live according to God's will.  In fact, he is one of the few Prophets besides Habakkuk, whom got a little mouthy, rebellious, and petulant with "the Lord". 
    In short, Elijah was no Yeshua--whom was completely attuned to God and Love.  Therefore, how the heck, could he have reached the point of complete transcendence of the body and death?
      Isn't it a lot more logical that this Whirlwind that took up Elijah was more related to a UFO and ET's taking up Elijah? The "whirlwind" was a combination of the forces of the spaceship they travel in, and the tractor beam that was pulling Elijah up to the ship.
    Here is what Howard Storm says about other life in the Universe, and note, he says, some of these ET's are more in accord with God's ways and will.  Is it really a stretch to consider, that if Howard Storm is correct about what the Angels and Yeshua told him, that some of these positive, Love based ET's interact with humans, and maybe even were considered "gods" by different civilizations at different times?
     Howard Storm on other Life in the Universe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKmPrlgIPU
Don, I know you like and very much respect Howard Storm and his testimony.  Is Howard Storm lying about these positive, loving, more intune with God ET's? Do you think that these are not mindful of humanity? 
   I tell you truly, MUCH of the Bible, has to do with ET's.  Here's another deep truth. Though Elijah did not experience the bodily resurrection process that Yeshua experienced (aka the glorified, eternal, uncorruptible, unlimited body form), it is true that Yeshua was taken up by the same ET group that earlier took up Elijah (whom was still very human and physical). 
      Don, I suggest reading Rosalind McKnight's book Cosmic Journeys, if you haven't already. The ET group that she met up with and had various experiences with, is the same group, that took up Elijah and later took up Yeshua.  This is the same group that I have much experience with as well, and whom have been psychically leading me since birth and whom worked on my body when my Mom was pregnant with me, and helped her to successfully have a baby when she previously could not. 
     They work for Yeshua, and when Yeshua goes public again, he will come in the same manner he left. Meaning, he will come with this ET group and come out of their spaceship. 
     The Creator, Yeshua, and the positive, Love based ET's want your eyes opened more, and though the redeemer of the accursed is speaking plainly to you of all the truths that Yeshua puts in his heart to speak, the very secrets of the Universe, you refuse to listen with your heart, but instead react with intellect and body promptings desperately shutting out the potent truth.   
    You are missing the mark on a very important opportunity here. One can only lead a kicking mule to water, but cannot make said mule drink same. Will you not sup with us and drink from the fountain of everlasting spiritual truth?  If you ever come to VA again, let's meet up. You will know by looking into my eyes, that I speak with authority given to me from the Most High.

Justin. Please get help. You speak with authority given to you by the most High? Give me a break.

Your claims are growing by the minute. Before long you will be accusing everyone of blasphemy if they don't agree with you. Geez.

  To quote that great and well known Prophet of T.V. cartoons, the Great and Strong Popeye:
"I yams, what I yams, and that's all that I yams.  Harggarrgarrh." 

   :D  ;D  :-*

Justin: "You think those Rabbi's that were directed to go to where John was, hadn't talked to the people around that area, some of whom, probably knew his birth name and some of his family connections?" 

You are again revealing your ignorance.  First, John's parents were almost certainly dead by the time he began his ministry because they were elderly at his birth (Luke 1:7, 18).  Second, John lived the isolated life of a hermit prior to the beginning of his ministry (1L80).  In any case, your point here is irrelevant to their belief about Elijah's return.

Justin: "Again, you are trying to dance around what is plain, holistic logic.  By those Rabbis' asking him, are you Elijah, they weren't thinking that he came out of the sky and all that."

You again pontificate from ignorance and impose your modern New Age midset on ancient Jews.   Jesus was expected to "come out of the sky" at His Second Coming and Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  And Elijah simply materialized on Transfiguration mount.
 
Justin: "Geez, you don't even allow for ET intervention being part of human history and the Bible, despite that Elijah clearly, had some powerful ET oriented experiences." 

You can site no academic commentary on 2 Kings outside the New Age Ghetto to support your absurd speculation.  And even if you were right, you can't infer from this that Elijah died in the company of gray aliens. 

In your carefully insulated Ghetto, you haven't read the thousands of pages of intertestamental Jewish texts that thoroughly establish the doctrine of the soul's preexistence and yet display no awareness of even the possibility of reincarnation.  You need to understand that the historian must learn how to identify the questions that ancient cultures could and could not ask. 

   Sigh, well I give up Don, you got me completely beat with your vastly superior knowledge and wisdom.  Uncle, uncle, I give!  I guess absolutely no one would have known his given birth name Yohannan, or that his father, Zachariah had been one of the priests at the temple.

   In any case, I still think it would be interesting if we met up some time in person.  Perhaps we could pray and meditate together in the Loving Creator's name?  And then go for a beer after (but only one for self, I don't much like to drink beyond a little amount anymore). 

:)

Don:

Perhaps you should stop pontificating about people pontificating. If you can't speak to people while feeling love for them, why should they listen to you?

In a way you are like the other "The Donald." He lies so much, that people figure they can't believe anything he says. So in a way, he is his own worst enemy.

I am not saying you lie, but when some people see your disrespectful attitude, they might lose interest in hearing what you have to say. Therefore, you are you own worst enemy.

But why should you listen to me or anybody else?

Justin and Albert,

It seems to me that if the two of you didn't post on Don's threads and he didn't post on yours (also mentioned by Don) that there would be no problems.

I hope that can happen because I know Roger, Vince, Matthew and I are interested in what Don has to say without the threads digressing into a war of words/beliefs between the three of you.

Thank you,
Kathy

Kathy:

I believe it is okay for people to discuss differing viewpoints, we do so within ourselves at times.

I don't believe it is okay to speak to others in a disrespectful way, so when I see somebody such as Don do so, I say something.

Albert,

Certainly it's well and good to discuss differing viewpoints but without the personal attacks would be preferable for many reasons.

I agree, personal attacks don't serve a purpose.  Therefore, it would be good if Don stopped his new age ghetto-like talk. A lot of people don't want to hear from a person if that person speaks as if he despises the people he speaks to.






Lights of Love wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 3:56pm:

Albert, Certainly it's well and good to discuss differing viewpoints but without the personal attacks would be preferable for many reasons.

  Well, seeing as I started this thread, hopefully I'm allowed to speak on same?  This seems to be me to be one of the issues of the modern day spiritual scene and many spiritual oriented forums. Either people themselves, or others outside of them, make them feel like they cannot be a real and honest human being, with real emotions and real interactions with others.
    We are taught to suppress our real feelings, thoughts, etc either because of attachment to self image, or because of enforced authority, or limited belief systems. We have this conception that a "spiritual" person, never challenges or engages in friction or conflict with others. We are taught to put a fake smile on us, and to "pretend" love, when we're not truly attuned to it. This, unfortunately, is a distorted belief and not objective truth.
    The truth is that sometimes friction, challenge, and conflict, is not only necessary for greater growth, but also helpful at times, just as the element Fire, is necessary in nature, and within ourselves.  Fire is the most Yang polarized element, and note, that the Fire Sign of Leo, is the Sign that corresponds to the Heart in the human Temple.  I happen to have a rather strong dose of Leo, and
    All truth can be found in Yeshua and his life and example. Yeshua was the Master of Love Divine, and fitted himself to become a pure channel of what some of us here call "PUL". This is what this Teacher of Love said about himself and his role:
     Matthew 10  "34 Think not that I have come to bring peace in the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 I have come to divide a man against his father and a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 And a man's enemies will be the members of his household.
   37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And everyone who does not take his cross and come after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever will find his life will lose it and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it."

   Yeshua knew his pure attunement to Love, would polarize the fear and selfishness in not just the individuals immediately around him, but in the larger world itself over a period of time, and that this was a necessary cycle of purification towards that of true Love, which does not come like false peace at a price of lack of real Love. 
    Or, in others, he knew, he would powerfully stir up the individual and collective shadow complexes of humanity. This is necessary, so that people can become more conscious to not only the suppressed/repressed shadow aspects within themselves, but within humanity and the larger reality as well.   
    If another like Yeshua, came among, do we really think that we have grown so much since he left the scene, that people wouldn't react to this other individual like many did to Yeshua when he was public?   Ah, the comfort, convenience  seeking illusions of humans.  Humanity has not grown THAT much since he left the public scene. 
     In any case, no doubt, some will be happy to hear, that I'm planning not posting much in the future.  I have shared the messages that I was nudged to share, and there's not much else left to say at this point. 
      I view this forum as one big dysfunctional family, that I love all the members of.  I ask you, to seek real peace--not false peace, but the peace that surpasses understanding and [b]is gained by carrying the cross and willingly going through challenge, suffering, friction, and conflict.
    We all, are tried tried as by Fire so that we can become fit companions with our Source.  The Daughters and Sons of humankind, have not yet even begun to experience Fire, but, it is coming.  See 2 peter 3:10.   Know that this is not only necessary, but helpful, and will help to usher in the future that Bob Monroe was brought to.
 

  Well, seeing as I started this thread, hopefully I'm allowed to speak on same?  This seems to be me to be one of the issues of the modern day spiritual scene and many spiritual oriented forums. Either people themselves, or others outside of them, make them feel like they cannot be a real and honest human being, with real emotions and real interactions with others.
    We are taught to suppress our real feelings, thoughts, etc either because of attachment to self image, or because of enforced authority, or limited belief systems. We have this conception that a "spiritual" person, never challenges or engages in friction or conflict with others. We are taught to put a fake smile on us, and to "pretend" love, when we're not truly attuned to it. This, unfortunately, is a distorted belief and not objective truth.
    The truth is that sometimes friction, challenge, and conflict, is not only necessary for greater growth, but also helpful at times, just as the element Fire, is necessary in nature, and within ourselves.  Fire is the most Yang polarized element, and note, that the Fire Sign of Leo, is the Sign that corresponds to the Heart in the human Temple.  I happen to have a rather strong dose of Leo, and have come to accept this Fire and the power of same.
    All truth can be found in Yeshua and his life and example. Yeshua was the Master of Love Divine, and fitted himself to become a pure channel of what some of us here call "PUL". This is what this Teacher of Love said about himself and his role:
     Matthew 10  "34 Think not that I have come to bring peace in the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 I have come to divide a man against his father and a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 And a man's enemies will be the members of his household.
   37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And everyone who does not take his cross and come after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever will find his life will lose it and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it."

   Yeshua knew his pure attunement to Love, would polarize the fear and selfishness in not just the individuals immediately around him, but in the larger world itself over a period of time, and that this was a necessary cycle of purification towards that of true Love, which does not come like false peace at a price of lack of real Love. 
    Or, in others, he knew, he would powerfully stir up the individual and collective shadow complexes of humanity. This is necessary, so that people can become more conscious to not only the suppressed/repressed shadow aspects within themselves, but within humanity and the larger reality as well.   
    If another like Yeshua, came among, do we really think that we have grown so much since he left the scene, that people wouldn't react to this other individual like many did to Yeshua when he was public?   Ah, the comfort, convenience  seeking illusions of humans.  Humanity has not grown THAT much since he left the public scene. 
     In any case, no doubt, some will be happy to hear, that I'm planning not posting much in the future.  I have shared the messages that I was nudged to share, and there's not much else left to say at this point. 
      I view this forum as one big dysfunctional family, that I love all the members of.  I ask you, to seek real peace--not false peace, but the peace that surpasses understanding and [b]is gained by carrying the cross and willingly going through challenge, suffering, friction, and conflict.
    We all, are tried tried as by Fire so that we can become fit companions with our Source.  The Daughters and Sons of humankind, have not yet even begun to experience Fire, but, it is coming.  See 2 peter 3:10.   Know that this is not only necessary, but helpful, and will help to usher in the future that Bob Monroe was brought to.
 

  Accidental double post. I can't seem to edit or erase anything for some reason. 

  To sum up my last reply in a much more brief manner  ;) :
Only when humanity and individuals come to the point of perfect, full attunement to PUL, will conflict, challenge, friction,  and the difficult aspect of Fire become unnecessary.

  It's VERY clear to me, that neither humanity, this forum nor most in it, are anywhere close to that fulfillment. Interestingly, those whom are closest, are ok with a little friction, challenge, conflict, and Fire if it's not too extreme or constant.  Yes, a hard truth, but truth nonetheless. 

Lights of Love wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 3:02pm:

Justin and Albert, It seems to me that if the two of you didn't post on Don's threads and he didn't post on yours (also mentioned by Don) that there would be no problems. I hope that can happen because I know Roger, Vince, Matthew and I are interested in what Don has to say without the threads digressing into a war of words/beliefs between the three of you. Thank you, Kathy

So I'm not the only one who has noticed that the good majority of threads that these two post in quickly (almost immediately in many cases) become derailed and turn to ad hominems under the guise of wisdom and love. It's sad that some can't simply talk about the topics brought up without always making things personal. It has really drained the fun from the forum, so much so that I've lost almost all interest in posting publicly. It's a real shame. :(

Oh give me a break. Some people try to turn this forum into a literal Bible forum, and anybody who challenges what such people say are a problem?

Do you expect people to just play dumb and not say things about the viewpoints they don't agree with?

Perhaps this forum would be funner if people such as Dude and Don didn't refer to viewpoints Bruce refers to in his book as demonic.

Remember, this forum isn't a fundamentalist church.

I wish that somebody other than Justin and I, who have a respect for Bruce and his work, would speak up when people say things that suggest that some of the viewpoints Bruce shared come from Demons. Sometimes when you love and appreciate a person, you'll stand up for such a person, rather than allow people to state things such as the higher self/Disk viewpoint comes from Demons.




I Am Dude wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:11pm:

Lights of Love wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:02pm: Justin and Albert, It seems to me that if the two of you didn't post on Don's threads and he didn't post on yours (also mentioned by Don) that there would be no problems. I hope that can happen because I know Roger, Vince, Matthew and I are interested in what Don has to say without the threads digressing into a war of words/beliefs between the three of you. Thank you, Kathy So I'm not the only one who has noticed that the good majority of threads that these two post in quickly (almost immediately in many cases) become derailed and turn to ad hominems under the guise of wisdom and love. It's sad that some can't simply talk about the topics brought up without always making things personal. It has really drained the fun from the forum, so much so that I've lost almost all interest in posting publicly. It's a real shame. :(

   I remember some 8 or so years back, when a lot of active forum members who are not here anymore, said similar about Don, and a number of people left because they supposedly couldn't deal with his frequent ad hominems, negative label calling, etc. as well as constant debate and challenge.

   While I was friendly with most of those folks, I thought it a bit immature and melodramatic, and thought that real PUL was tolerant of a wide spectrum of behavior and interaction. At the time, Don was a little annoying, but I considered him mostly harmless.  At those times, I was one of the few people whom stuck up for Don and said, well, it's a good opportunity to practice what we preach about PUL. 

  The cycle has come around full circle, and now the Christians here are being extremely persecuted and horribly mistreated and just can't take it anymore.  ::)

   Oy Vey, I really, really can't wait to hang out with my ET buddies again.  They are so much more mature, centered, and truly loving.  From humans to my ET friends, it's like going from trying to have conversations with a hormonal, over dramatic 13 year old, to conversing with a wise, logical, balanced professor or the like. 

  Here's the thing, if everything that we in this New Age ghetto believe is false, demonically inspired, etc, then you, Don, and Roger go to a fundamentalist Christian forum, where everyone will pat each other on the back, congratulate each other on how great of Christians y'll are, commiserate in how persecuted Christians are, and you don't have to worry about the likes of us debating you better than you can intellectually or emotionally handle it.   

  It really is that simple.  No one's putting a gun to your head and saying, you must stay in this apparently demon infested place. 

   Neither you nor Don will honestly answer the direct, simple question of, is Bruce Moen completely demonically influenced with all his talks of Disks, guides/helpers, etc, etc.  It wouldn't matter if he was sick or not, because you both know it would oust your real agendas.   

  One of the reasons why I say humans have a lot to learn about Love, is because so many want to surround themselves with only like minded, similar thinking and believing people. That's not love. That's the like attracts like affection that Yeshua addressed and said that even thief's and criminals do that.  ::)

 

There has been one complaint from the Peer Moderator System on this thread.  I was hoping this thread wouldn't continue in this manner but since it has I finally moved it to Off Topic by Bruce's suggestion.  I've notified the "offending" person to make them aware. 

This is beyond off topic, so if it continues I will delete the thread entirely.  Maybe that will cool things down.

My suggestion is that all of you involved in this particular topic of discussion who continue to perpetuate it time and time again please give it a rest.  It's the same arguments, disagreements, and hot-headedness and always leads and resorts to name-calling and people getting offended.  This is just my suggestion, that's not from Bruce.

If any one of you wants to post about religion and religious beliefs we have that forum for you to do so but it is not meant to be a soap-box nor for arguing who's right and who's wrong.

I agree with Kathy that respect needs to be demonstrated by avoiding each other's posts if you can't avoid the inevitable arguing because clearly this is going to continue unless something changes.  I am often told that someone is going to stop posting or leave if things don't change, and I don't want anyone to stop feeling welcome or comfortable posting.  So please do something to change this pattern, find a way to respect each other, and allow each other to share their thoughts. 

As long as meaningful discussions are had, there isn't a problem and those who are enjoying reading and replying can continue to do so. 

Vicky

    Albert, it seems that a number of folks just cannot view us objectively at all. I just got an angry, judgmental p.m. from someone supposedly friendly to us, and they mentioned Seagull leaving as proof of how inconsiderate and negative we are here. 
    What this person failed to perceive or remember is that right before she left, Seagull called me mentally ill, said I needed help, etc.  Had I personally attacked her or provoked her to receive this kind of treatment?   No. I just spoke well and honestly about self.   
     Did I attack her in turn? No, instead I made an impersonal, light hearted joke that had nothing to do with her. These folks' lack of objectivity towards us, is truly bizarre, extreme, and strange. 
      I don't blame them though.  I think my spouse's dream below holds a clue to what's really going on.  Because you and I can't be influenced by this negative, collectively psychopathic ET group anymore (we have become too conscious of them and their meddling, and we're too attuned to PUL), they focus on people around us whom can still be influenced. 
   http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1296328836/0#0
       I don't expect this severe lack of objectivity to change. Now I understand Yeshua's words better, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."  I will continue to love, if disagree at times, with our dysfunctional family.

    Meanwhile, I will ignore Don, Vince, and Roger. 

Justin:

Perhaps rather than responding to posts that say things that oppose something such as the disk viewpoint, we can start a thread that speaks about such things, without referring to what opposing threads say.

That way if there is a person who reads one of Bruce's books,  finds something such as the Disk viewpoint interesting, he or she can find not only threads that don't favor such a viewpoint, but also threads that favor the viewpoint.