I put this thread here rather than under "Religions and Their Beliefs" because of this issue's profound implications for the manifestation of PUL.  Interested readers might consult my new companions thread "The Right Prayer Partner" under the section "Religions and Their Beliefs."

Jesus issues this command: "Bless those who curse you (Lukr 6:27)." Are you a blessing machine? Is it part of your lifestyle to bless everyone you encounter in a potentially meaningful way? Or do you even know what I'm talking about?

Numbers 6:22-26 offers an elegant model for this blessed practice:

"The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying,
Thus you shall bless the Israelites. You shall say to them:
"May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace."

Unlike standard petitionary prayers, to bless someone does not mean to seek a specific outcome. You don't direct God on how to do His business. Rather, by an act of faith, you simply confer a blessing, which means "divine favor." Part of that divine favor is a request that God keep the targets. But you leave it up to God to determine the form and extent of this divine preservation and protection. Then you ask God to allow your targets to experience the radiance of God's smile on their circumstances with the result that they feel bathed in the brightness of unmerited divine favor. What does it mean for God to "lift up His countenance upon you?" As a result of the blessing, you experience God suddenly shifting His gaze from other matters to focus lovingly on you with all your needs, thus producing a profound sense of peace (shalom), i. e. a profound sense of spiritual wholeness, of integrating all the conflicting aspects of you experience into a state of relaxed contentment.

In this thread, I will share glowing examples of people for whom blessing others is a way of life and I invite you to share your experiences of blessing others or being blessed by loving Christians. To get us started, consider this blessing placed on a struggling young pianist.

At age 16 Andor Foldes was already a skilled pianist, but he was experiencing a troubled year. In the midst of the young Hungarian's personal struggles, one of the most renowned pianists of the day came to Budapest. Emil von Sauer was famous not only for his abilities; he was also the last surviving pupil of the great Franz Liszt. Von Sauer requested that Foldes play for him. Foldes obliged with some of the most difficult works of Bach, Beethoven, and Schumann.

When he finished, von Sauer walked over to him and kissed him on the forehead. "My son," he said, "when I was your age I became a student of Liszt. He kissed me on the forehead after my first lesson, saying, 'Take good care of this kiss--it comes from Beethoven, who gave it to me after hearing me play.' I have waited for years to pass on this sacred heritage, but now I feel you deserve it."

That is a wonderful prayer, I'm going to start using it. Thanks!

Consider these 3 examples of a ministry of blessing.
(1) Some churches embrace a blessing ministry. Volunteers divine up their city into blocks and regularly walk the streets, silently blessing each home as they walk. As curious residents slowly learn about this ministry, the walkers ask them if they have any specific prayer burdens for them to bear. This ministry can be effective for both the walkers and those receiving the blessing.

(2) At a funeral I attended a few days ago, the pastor shared this testimony of his son Duane. Duane suffered from serious knee damage and was in constant pain. Then one Sunday at church, Mary saw him in conversation with another man and felt compelled to lovingly touch him on the shoulder. She did not have a physical healing in mind; she just wanted to bless him. From the moment of that touch, Duane's Dad told me that his son never had any knee pain again!

(3) My friend Lloyd shared this testimony of a friend of his. The friend was a militant atheist with no interest in religion. One day, he shopped at a very crowded mall. As he was negotiating his way through the crowd, he accidentally jostled a lady in his path. She touched him to brace herself. He apologized, she just smiled, and they both went their separate ways--except now his life was completely different! He was suddenly obsessed with the thought that a personal relationship with a loving God was a genuine possibility for him and, by the end of the day, he had committed his life to Christ.

Only years later did he see a photo of Kathryn Kuhlman who attracted thousands of people to her healing meetings. Kathryn loved to bless people with her loving touch and apparently had turned an awkward encounter in that mall into an opportunity to bless this man. Little did she know that her blessing was the most life changing spiritual moment of his life.

Awesome testimonies.

I was trying to understand the meaning of the initial blessing prayer you shared, particularly the line "May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace."
I was wondering what countenance meant in this context. I found that it could mean face, favor, kindness, etc. Then I found the NLT version:

24 ‘May the Lord bless you
    and protect you.
25 May the Lord smile on you
    and be gracious to you.
26 May the Lord show you his favor
    and give you his peace.’

While NIT says:

24 “The Lord bless you
    and keep you;
25 the Lord make his face shine on you
    and be gracious to you;
26 the Lord turn his face toward you
    and give you peace.”’

So are the phrases lifting up one's countenance, turning one's face towards another, and showing another one's favor all synonymous?

Dude: "I was trying to understand the meaning of the initial blessing prayer you shared, particularly the line "May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace."  I was wondering what countenance meant in this context.

God is omnipresent and the ground of all being rather than the greatest being among countless other beings (Acts 17:30).  God's ways and thoughts are "higher" than our ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:7-8).  So it is often hard for us to wrap our mind around the thought that God's essence is also Love and thus God wants a "personal" relationship with us.  So anthropomorphic biblical expressions like "God smiles on us" and "God turns His "face" or "countenance towards us" can serve as images that allow our imagination to bypass our inability to "try" to believe and make contact.

What does this mean in practice?  It is easier to "feel" my way to God than to "think" my way to God, but often life's hardships make me feel empty, God feels profoundly absent, and my prayers seem to "bounce off the ceiling."  Of course, since God is within us, we don't need our prayers to go anywhere.  So when I bless someone by asking God to let them see His "face" and experience His "smile,"  what I want is for God to first make the recipient of my blessing aware that He has turned His loving attention to them and is taking pleasure in their sheer company. The sweetness of this preliminary perception sets the stage for more effective petitionary prayer and creates confidence that God has totally forgiven our confessed sins. 

Good to see you back, Don. 

My question to you would be, what is your feeling about reconciling two opposing views?  one being that we are all sinners and must repent for only through God's grace are we saved, and the other being that we all have the divine essence within us, and that we only need to look within ourselves to find the essence of God (that which is good, and that which is true, according to ES)? 

Followers of New Age thought are often criticized for being haughty or arrogant to think that we each have a divine nature, and are already one with God.  So some people who interpret the bible literally might say that we are all worthless sinners, and only by grace can we find salvation.  These are difficult questions and I know we've discussed them before.  My own interpretation is that God is (as you mentioned) the foundation of our being and that by choice we either turn towards God and let God flow through us into both our thoughts and our actions (that which is good and true) or turn away from God and indulge our ego related desires.  However, there are some who believe that if they proclaim their sin, and ask for forgiveness, they are immediately saved (this is called, as you know, the sola fide argument in Christianity).  Others believe that when we are open to God's love and let it flow through us, our actions in the world reflect our connection to God so that we are in tune with the divine when we turn toward what is good and true, and act accordingly, naturally (because really it is the only way to be).  This is the opposite point of view to sola fide which goes more along the lines of ES's revelations.

An interesting corollary point that ES makes in his writings is that Angels (the deceased humans on a spiritual journey toward God) don't understand people who take credit for their good actions and want acclaim or accolades for it.  To the angels, ES states that whenever they perform a good deed, they see it as allowing God to flow through them, so that really they don't feel that they deserve any "credit" for the good deed, rather than they just did what was natural, and that God deserved any praise or credit.  This idea rings true to me, and is one of the more profound insights that ES puts forward which makes me feel his spiritual journeys were genuine.


Matthew

Matthew, one of the few things in ACIM that rings true to me is that God, being perfect, is by definition incapable of creating anything that is imperfect. So our true nature, as spiritual beings, is also perfect.

However, when we choose to experience life in the physical body, our spiritual being remains in heaven, untouched by our actions on earth.

The problem that scenario presents is that if our spirit being is eternally perfect, to what end would living a God centered life be? How can our spirit being benefit? How can we improve on perfect?

Another key question that I'll reserve for later, is to what extent, and according to what protocol, does God (or angels) intervene in our physical lives?

R

Great to hear from you again, Matthew!

DocM: "My question to you would be, what is your feeling about reconciling two opposing views?  one being that we are all sinners and must repent for only through God's grace are we saved, and the other being that we all have the divine essence within us, and that we only need to look within ourselves to find the essence of God (that which is good, and that which is true, according to ES)?"

In my view, the issues involved are complex and therefore so is any adequate answer.  In my view, a good starting point is a recognition of 3 biblical principles:

(1) We are created in "the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27-28)."  The Hebrew words for "image" and "likeness" refer to statues that ancient kings set up in conquered lands to represent their presence and authority there during the king's absence.  This means that we represent God's presence and authority on earth and in that sense are mini-gods or creators in the making.  So  Paul can ask, "Don't you know that the saints will have jurisdiction over (judge) the cosmos (1 Corinthians 6:2)?"  It is in that sense that our sacred trust to be stewards of creation should be understood (Genesis 1:28-30). 

(2) What this also means is that we are destined to "participate in the divine nature (2 Peter 1.4).'"  The early church Father Origen (225 AD) says that believers will progress from one spiritual state to another in a process that brings to an ever more complete union with God.   Origen is interpreting John 14:2, which is mistranslated in the King James: "In my Father's house are many mansions."  The Greek word "mone" used here does not mean "mansions,"  but "resting places" or "inns," temporary lodgings en route to a higher destination.

(3) God is Love and Love requires a truly free "other," who has a strong inclination or incentive to choose a path of separation from God.  One Hebrew word for "sin" means "that which separates from God."  The value of our choice of the good is a function of our contrary inclinations and our challenge to overcome such inclinations for a higher good.

Practically speaking, it is better to reject the New Age notion of a "divine spark" because this spark is merely an unactualized unmerited potential to choose the path that leads to "participation in the divine nature."  Because a successful journey towards union is unmerited, its path is dependent on repentance, a humility that acknowledges the  essential role of dependence on divine help, guidance, and transformation, and, most importantly, grace.  Our only proper response to grace is a life that constantly expresses gratitude for God's unmerited favor and such chronic gratitude is a necessary condition for the development of true PUL.  The tendency to ignore this fact makes the charge of New Age arrogance and presumption well deserved because it erects a barrier to true progress! 

Don

TheDonald wrote on Apr 29^th, 2017 at 7:31pm:

Because a successful journey towards union is unmerited, its path is dependent on repentance, a humility that acknowledges the  essential role of dependence on divine help, guidance, and transformation, and, most importantly, grace.  Our only proper response to grace is a life that constantly expresses gratitude for God's unmerited favor and such chronic gratitude is a necessary condition for the development of true PUL.  The tendency to ignore this fact makes the charge of New Age arrogance and presumption well deserved because it erects a barrier to true progress!

When I gave myself to Christ, I admitted the fact that I was nothing without Him, accepted my sinful nature, and repented. This caused a lightening of my spirit unlike anything I had experienced before, like finally releasing a heavy burden that I had been carrying around my entire life. The truth of my declaration was so apparent that I felt chills throughout my body and was brought to tears. I then experienced a deep gratitude to God, almost as if this was a natural result of the process rather than something forced or willingly evoked. I thought I'd share this because I believe it parallels what you've said here, and again, the truth in your words moves me deeply and I am extremely grateful for this.

Don said:

" Because a successful journey towards union is unmerited, its path is dependent on repentance, a humility that acknowledges the  essential role of dependence on divine help, guidance, and transformation, and, most importantly, grace. "

It seems to me that there is a difference between an unactualized divine spark within us, and the notion that the divine spark is initially unmerited in all people.    If God is the foundation of our being, then if we choose to allow God's love to flow through us and act in accordance with right thought and action, then we are deserving of our divine birthright.  I can see the point that if we are in the physical world, where man artificially separates himself from God and the divine unity, that we are starting with a situation where we are born into a fallacy to some extent of a separation that should not exist.

However, there are some souls we all encounter, who choose to allow God's love to flow through them, and who appear to be on their way to a spiritual union with the divine because they truly are good people.

I suppose that I agree with the idea of confessing one's sin, the notions of grace and forgiveness, but I am not comfortable with the idea that our journey toward divine unity is unmerited.

M

Dude, thanks for posting that testimony. How long has it been? Has it changed your life even down to everyday things that used to get you upset or angry or stressed? Life is so full of challenges, big and small. Just driving down to the store can try our patience sometimes.

I don't think giving our life to Christ means that our human character will necessarily change. We are weak. We get angry, petty, and are quick to point out the faults of others. In my case I need to understand that episodes of weakness don't mean I'm not worthy of Christ.

It seems like for me it's one step forward and two steps back. Can Christ suppress or even eliminate those things that no doubt must make Him disappointed? Or does free will make such an intervention impossible?  So many questions.

R

rondele wrote on Apr 29^th, 2017 at 10:08pm:

Dude, thanks for posting that testimony. How long has it been? Has it changed your life even down to everyday things that used to get you upset or angry or stressed? Life is so full of challenges, big and small. Just driving down to the store can try our patience sometimes. I don't think giving our life to Christ means that our human character will necessarily change. We are weak. We get angry, petty, and are quick to point out the faults of others. In my case I need to understand that episodes of weakness don't mean I'm not worthy of Christ. It seems like for me it's one step forward and two steps back. Can Christ suppress or even eliminate those things that no doubt must make Him disappointed? Or does free will make such an intervention impossible?  So many questions. R

I accepted Christ back in January.

It's funny because I was just thinking about this today. It has definitely changed me.

I now have urges to go out of my way to do nice things for people that I never even considered before, and I act on them. I've noticed a dramatic reduction in my negative thoughts and feelings during my various daily activities, and thus a reduction of the stress that would result from them. I also treat people with more compassion now, and my tendency to consider people as obstacles and inconveniences is diminishing by the day.

As I mentioned in another post, I now feel a love in my heart that was previously absent. I actually tear up and/or cry from joy almost daily during my study, contemplation and prayer. I've also noticed a great improvement of a minor stress-related health issue which seems to be almost nonexistent now.

All of these things have been increasing and improving gradually since January as I continue my prayer, study and relationship with Christ.

When we learn to function as a blessing machine, we are also projecting pure love.  But I don't consider this claim helpful because, practically speaking, people typically make one of 2 mistakes about the highest love:

(1) On this site, some have claimed to have immersed themselves in PUL in a way that sounds like some kind of cosmic soup or atmosphere that is more reminiscent of ecstasy or bliss than agape love.  True agape love is instead a way of being or in some sense a permanent mood.

(2) In my experience, sermons on love usually have little impact because the audience has locked "a loving person" into their self-image in a way that prevents them from taking a hard look at how they actually live from hour to hour and from digesting fresh insights into love's true nature.  In other words, they don't think they have overlooked vital aspects about what agape love really is. 

To illustrate this consider these 3 neglected texts in Paul's epistles:
(a) "Let love be genuine...Outdo one another in showing respect (or honor--Romans 12:9-10)."

Our self-image is protected by unconscious comparisons with how we imagine our character to stack up against that of others.  Paul counters this by advising us to restrict this competition to how well our way of being displays concrete acts of respect for others.  We can all lie to ourselves about the "warm fuzzies" we confuse and mislabel as love, but chronic acts of respect are more concrete.  There is no agape love without the recipient of that love feeling profound respect from us.

(b) "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things (1 Corinthians 13:7)."
Among other things, this poetic verse urges us to cultivate "holy perception."  In other words, we must not be naïve about other people's weaknesses and faults, but we discipline ourselves to perceive these people in terms of their as yet undeveloped potential to become God's masterpiece of spirituality.

(c) "In humility esteem others as better than yourselves (Philippians 2:3)."

This "holy perception" of others mutes our judgmental spirit, but through our life of chronic confession of our sins, we remain acutely aware of our own limitations. But how can we tell if this contrast in perceptions is real?  The chief symptom that it is real is our tendency to esteem others as "better than ourselves."  Thus, we love our neighbor as ourselves, but emotionally esteem through the lens of ways they may well be superior to us. 

Where does sinful nature come from? If somebody can explain this in a way that makes sense and covers all of the bases, I'll accept the notion of repenting.

I consider the matter this way. Everything that exists, even that which is referred to as "sin" comes from God's being, for there is nothing that exists other than God's being.

The crucial factor is that God's being has free will. It isn't limited by somebody's notion of what is right or wrong. When I say this I don't mean to say that some ways of being aren't more preferable than others (e.g.; treating others with respect is more preferable than treating others with disrespect). Rather, in order for God to have freedom of expression and to know what his being is all about, in some way he needs to consider all of the possibilities. I believe that we help with this process as we find out what is possible.

Is a soul who incarnates into this world more likely to become something such as gang banger if it incarnates into a place where a lot of gang banging activity takes place, or if it incarnates into a place where no such activity takes place? I believe the answer is obvious.

I don't mean to suggest that we don't have free will, but in order to use it in a wise way that leads to preferable results, we need to have the required wisdom. Sometimes it takes time to develop wisdom. Consider ourselves. We each have free will, yet we have differing viewpoints and they represent what is actually true to varying degrees. Why do we have differing viewpoints when we have free will? Because we have yet to develop the wisdom to use our free will in a way that leads to what might be considered perfect results.

I believe a key to finding the required wisdom is understanding that we can be wrong about things. The more we are able to understand this the more we can consider the accuracy of our viewpoints and determine if there is a more accurate way of viewing things. As we do this we are likely to find how faulty logic can be at times and choose to find a way to listen to the wisdom that is contained within our hearts.

Back to the point I was initially getting at. When a soul incarnates into a lifetime that includes negative influences it isn't a matter of that soul becoming a horrible sinner that others should condemn. Rather, it is a matter of a soul being brave enough to take on an incarnation that is quite challenging and might lead to negative consequences.

It is important to remember that when souls incarnate into this world and other places, little pieces of God's being do so, not something that is completely foreign to God. I believe that God understands about the difficulty of incarnating into challenging life situations thoroughly enough so that he doesn't view people who go astray as detestable beings that need to repent. It is more of a matter of a person becoming wiser and finding out what leads to true fulfillment.

When it comes to having gratitude, one of the things I consider is how fortunate I am to live the life I have. I figure that there are many pieces of God within this world that have it much rougher than I, and that haven't been fortunate to experience things such as divine love and peace.

If it isn't a matter of souls getting involved with circumstances that cause them to be influenced in a negative way, then where does the ability to sin come from? If God created souls so they are perfect, then what is referred to as sin wouldn't take place. If God provided a soul with more negative traits than positive traits, then you can hardly blame that soul for manifesting in a negative way. If God provided a soul with more positive traits than negative traits, and a soul had the ability to compare these traits in an accurate and thorough way, then there is no way a soul would choose the negative traits. Therefore, I believe another explanation is required.

The explanation was partly provided above. In order for us and the creative process of this universe to have free will and be more than programmed beings, we need to go through a learning process that enables us to develop the ability to use our free will in a way that represents both wisdom and freedom.

One night I was meditating and I felt concerned about the negativity that takes place in this world. I experienced myself floating in what seemed like the center of this universe and heard the words, "it's a school."

Don:

When I read the below I didn't get the impression that you actually knew what you were talking about. I got the impression that you are so into getting people to believe in your Biblical ways, that you felt the need to discredit the experiences that other people have.

--Don said.
"(1) On this site, some have claimed to have immersed themselves in PUL in a way that sounds like some kind of cosmic soup or atmosphere that is more reminiscent of ecstasy or bliss than agape love.  True agape love is instead a way of being or in some sense a permanent mood."

A number of years ago while meditating one night, I prayed to God and Christ and asked if ACIM comes from Jesus. I experienced myself standing in front of a small closet (non-physically). There were three books located on a shelf. One was the Bible, one was the Koran, and I couldn't figure out what the third book was. It floated off of the shelf so I could see the cover, and it said "A Course in Miracles." Four pages came out of the book. I looked at these pages and it looked like red pen was used to make a bunch of corrections. Numerous words were crossed out, and words that represented corrections were written. I believe I was being told that the book has a lot of errors. I believe that I was also being told that the Bible, Koran and ACIM can all lead to a dogmatic approach if one isn't careful.

On another occasion I meditated and asked the same question (I can be stubborn at times) and from the darkness a book appeared. It seemed to be a copy of ACIM, however the words were smudged so they didn't say "A Course in Miracles." I believe I was being told that the book isn't a course in miracles.

Next, a copy of the Holy Bible appeared. In this case I could read the words "Holy Bible." The sense I got is that a person can get a better idea of what Jesus had to say by reading the Bible, than he (or she) can by reading ACIM.

Nevertheless, I don't believe that Jesus appeared on this Earth with the intent of creating a form of dogmatism that would lead many people astray for many years. Rather he hoped that people would use their God given intelligence, which can be connected to at heart level, to use words within the Bible as an aid, and not as a device that limits what we allow ourselves to consider and understand.

Quote:

Where does sinful nature come from? If somebody can explain this in a way that makes sense and covers all of the bases, I'll accept the notion of repenting.

Hi Albert,

This is simplistic but in my view.  Sin is separation from God.  We are born sinners because we are born into a world in which we perceive ourselves separated from God, nature, others, as well as ourselves.  To repent is to be in harmony with God, nature, others and ourselves.

K

Kathy, I've been longing for your reemergence on this site.  While I was waiting for you, I needed a nervous substitute for chain-smoking; so I instead created a blizzard of new threadsl  :)

Albert: "Where does sinful nature come from? If somebody can explain this in a way that makes sense and covers all of the bases, I'll accept the notion of repenting."

One must first recognize that the story of Adam and Eve is more than the story of a Fall; it is the story of the birth of conscience.  In other words, it is the foundation story of the evolution of conscience and the spiritual growth that comes from this development.  Consider Genesis 3:22:

"The Lord God said: See, now the man has become like one of us, knowing the difference between good and evil." 

To grasp this, one needs to recognize 2 positive outcomes of Adam and Eve's disobedience.  First, their disobedience establishes their godlike character and thus actualizes their creation in God's image.  Second, their disobedience enables them to become truly moral creatures because its consequences make them aware of the distinction between good and evil.  The inevitable implication is that it was always God's plan and therefore His will that they would disobey--and that is precisely Paul's point in Romans 11:32: 

"God imprisoned all in disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

We ultimately have no choice about disobedience of God's will.  God "imprisons" us in this earth system "school."   Why?  For 2 reasons:

(1) We need to be weak because we need to have powerful inclinations to choose evil.  Why?  Because, as I have said, the moral worth of our free choice for the good is a function of our difficulty in making godly choices.  Without these negative inclinations and their incentives, the quality of our moral freedom would be undermined.  God does not want robots whose love results from a programed nature.

That is where the concepts of sin and repentance come in.  "Sin" means "to miss the mark" and refers to the state of separation from God.  "Repentance" means both "remorse" and "a change of mind or direction."  As such, repentance is an essential tool for our progress towards PUL and the resulting progress towards union with God. 

Romans 11:32 also implies a grounds for the atoning death of Jesus, God incarnate, on the cross.  God takes responsibility for our inevitable sin and failure and in this sense Jesus can be understood as bearing all our sins on the cross.  Paul teaches that God set up this school and its resulting journey, so that He could "have mercy on all " on all on the basis of grace, not merit.  Repentance and its resulting virtue of gratitude for divine pardon are signposts of our progress toward PUL and an ever more intimate oneness with God.  In the process, God fulfills the typology of the OT system of blood sacrifice and brings it to an end.  I remind you that God claims in the OT that this was a system He never wanted, but chose to use for an adaptation of spiritual truth to the cultural demands of the Israelites, until He could use Jesus' death and the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD to get rid of atoning sacrifices altogether.
[Please consult the relevant post in the "Religions and their Beliefs" section of this site.]

Don, your explanation of the fall and the reason for Jesus' sacrifice make more sense than any other explanation I've heard and I'm very grateful for this. 

Kathy:

Thank you for your response, what you said makes sense.


Lights of Love wrote on Apr 30^th, 2017 at 11:00pm:

Quote: Where does sinful nature come from? If somebody can explain this in a way that makes sense and covers all of the bases, I'll accept the notion of repenting. Hi Albert, This is simplistic but in my view.  Sin is separation from God.  We are born sinners because we are born into a world in which we perceive ourselves separated from God, nature, others, as well as ourselves.  To repent is to be in harmony with God, nature, others and ourselves. K

Don, thank you for your response.

Some of what you said is similar to what I said. In order for us to have free will, God had to allow for us to find out for ourselves how true fulfillment can be found. This is a challenging process, and one of the reasons Jesus came here is to help us find the way. Because I believe his assistance is still available, when I meditate, I pray to him.

Regarding his being crucified, perhaps this was partly a matter of his showing that he dedicated his entire life to helping us and divine will.

I once saw a movie about Jesus' life, sorry, I can't remember its name. At the beginning of this movie it showed some of Jesus' early life that isn't found in the Bible. I don't know how accurate this representation was, but I liked the spirit of it. There was a lady he knew that wanted to be in a relationship with him. Jesus told her that he couldn't have this relationship with her because his life wasn't his own (he was here to serve). I like the spirit of this and consider it an example to follow. I don't mean to say that it is never okay for people to have relationships.

Don,you are indeed a blessing to the forum!

I have some questions/comments about your post inserted below.

Kathy, I've been longing for your reemergence on this site.  While I was waiting for you, I needed a nervous substitute for chain-smoking; so I instead created a blizzard of new threadsl 

Albert: "Where does sinful nature come from? If somebody can explain this in a way that makes sense and covers all of the bases, I'll accept the notion of repenting."

One must first recognize that the story of Adam and Eve is more than the story of a Fall; it is the story of the birth of conscience.  In other words, it is the foundation story of the evolution of conscience and the spiritual growth that comes from this development.  Consider Genesis 3:22:

"The Lord God said: See, now the man has become like one of us, knowing the difference between good and evil".

This implies that man existed in some way before the transformation? What is the meaning of "us."?

To grasp this, one needs to recognize 2 positive outcomes of Adam and Eve's disobedience.  First, their disobedience establishes their godlike character and thus actualizes their creation in God's image. I'm having trouble understanding this. Why does their disobedience equate to godlike character? Second, their disobedience enables them to become truly moral creatures because its consequences make them aware of the distinction between good and evil.  The inevitable implication is that it was always God's plan and therefore His will that they would disobey--and that is precisely Paul's point in Romans 11:32:

"God imprisoned all in disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." Isn't that like the sheriff putting someone in prison so that he could subsequently free him?

We ultimately have no choice about disobedience of God's will.  God "imprisons" us in this earth system "school."   Why?  For 2 reasons:

(1) We need to be weak because we need to have powerful inclinations to choose evil.  Why?  Because, as I have said, the moral worth of our free choice for the good is a function of our difficulty in making godly choices.  Without these negative inclinations and their incentives, the quality of our moral freedom would be undermined.  God does not want robots whose love results from a programed nature. This truly strikes home. I can relate this to everyday experience. Before I retired I was an Office Director in a large DC federal agency. Three Division Directors with employees totaling about 130 reporting to them and the DDs in turn reporting to me. The most valuable Director was the one who challenged my policies. Not for the sake of being disruptive but by making me rethink. And he always presented his reasoning and offered options. In contrast, the other two agreed with almost everything. No question as to which one I valued the most.

That is where the concepts of sin and repentance come in.  "Sin" means "to miss the mark" and refers to the state of separation from God. So this means that we didn't consciously choose to separate, we were separated by God upon our creation? But if so, our sinning is essentially the result of God having separated us? "Repentance" means both "remorse" and "a change of mind or direction."  As such, repentance is an essential tool for our progress towards PUL and the resulting progress towards union with God.

Romans 11:32 also implies a grounds for the atoning death of Jesus, God incarnate, on the cross.  God takes responsibility for our inevitable sin and failure yes, since it was God who separated us in the first place? and in this sense Jesus can be understood as bearing all our sins on the cross.  Paul teaches that God set up this school and its resulting journey, so that He could "have mercy on all " on all on the basis of grace, not merit. So God set up the system of separation so that He could, via grace and having Jesus bear our sins on the cross, none of which would have occurred had God not separated us in the first place? Repentance and its resulting virtue of gratitude for divine pardon again, we wouldn't need divine pardon if God didn't separate us. Isn't that a bit like stacking the deck? are signposts of our progress toward PUL and an ever more intimate oneness with God.  In the process, God fulfills the typology of the OT system of blood sacrifice and brings it to an end.  I remind you that God claims in the OT that this was a system He never wanted, but chose to use for an adaptation of spiritual truth to the cultural demands of the Israelites, until He could use Jesus' death and the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD to get rid of atoning sacrifices altogether.
[Please consult the relevant post in the "Religions and their Beliefs" section of this site.]

Don, I hope you'll understand I'm not trying to debate or challenge, I truly am having problems understanding some of this.

R

Quote:

Kathy, I've been longing for your reemergence on this site.  While I was waiting for you, I needed a nervous substitute for chain-smoking; so I instead created a blizzard of new threadsl

Hi Don!  Haha, that is funny, but yes, I see you have been like a busy little beaver.   Nice to have you back!

As Roger mentions, this can be a bit of a stumbling block.  It seems one way to look at this would be to see God as providing opportunities in various realities such as ELS, for a soul's learning and growth.  So in that respect it is the soul that chooses and not that God "puts" us here.  Yet, God knowing the possibilities for us to get lost, separated from him, he provides a way for us to be reconciled with him.  Find our way back home.

  One of the more fascinating Readings found in the Cayce work, which addresses these and other issues:

"TEXT OF READING 5749-14

This Psychic Reading given by Edgar Cayce at the office of the Association, Arctic Crescent, Virginia Beach, Va., this 14th day of May, 1941, in accordance with request made by the self - Mr. Thomas Sugrue, Active Member of the Ass''n for Research & Enlightenment, Inc.

P R E S E N T

Edgar Cayce; Hugh Lynn Cayce, Conductor; Gladys Davis, Steno. Thomas Sugrue and Gertrude Cayce.

R E A D I N G

Time of Reading 4:10 to 4:35 P. M. Eastern Standard Time.

1. HLC: You will have before you the enquiring mind of the entity, Thomas Sugrue, present in this room, and certain of the problems which confront him in composing the manuscript of THERE IS A RIVER. The entity is now ready to describe the philosophical concepts which have been given through this source, and wishes to parallel and align them with known religious tenets, especially those of Christian theology. The entity does not wish to set forth a system of thought, nor imply that all questions of a philosophical nature can be answered through this source - the limitations of the finite mind prevent this. But the entity wishes to answer those questions which will naturally arise in the mind of the reader, and many of the questions which are being asked by all people in the world today. Therefore the entity presents certain problems and questions, which you will answer as befits the entity's understanding and the task of interpretation before him.

2. EC: Yes, we have the enquiring mind, Thomas Sugrue, and those problems, those questions that arise in the mind of the entity at this period. Ready for questions.

3. (Q) The first problem concerns the reason for creation. Should this be given as God's desire to experience Himself, God's desire for companionship, God's desire for expression, or in some other way? (A) God's desire for companionship and expression.

4. (Q) The second problem concerns that which is variously called evil, darkness, negation, sin. Should it be said that this condition existed as a necessary element of creation, and the soul, given free will, found itself with the power to indulge in it, or lose itself in it? Or should it be said that this is a condition created by the activity of the soul itself? Should it be described, in either case, as a state of consciousness, a gradual lack of awareness of self and self's relation to God? (A) It is the free will and its losing itself in its relationship to God.

5. (Q) The third problem has to do with the fall of man. Should this be described as something which was inevitable in the destiny of souls, or something which God did not desire, but which He did not prevent once He had given free will? The problem here is to reconcile the omniscience of God and His knowledge of all things with the free will of the soul and the soul's fall from grace. (A) He did not prevent, once having given free will. For, He made the individual entities or souls in the beginning. For, the beginnings of sin, of course, were in seeking expression of themselves outside of the plan or the way in which God had expressed same. Thus it was the individual, see? Having given free will, then - though having the foreknowledge, though being omnipotent and omnipresent - it is only when the soul that is a portion of God CHOOSES that God knows the end thereof.

6. (Q) The fourth problem concerns man's tenancy on earth. Was it originally intended that souls remain out of earthly forms, and were the races originated as a necessity resulting from error? (A) The earth and its manifestations were only the expression of God and not necessarily as a place of tenancy for the souls of men, until man was created - to meet the needs of existing conditions.

7. (Q) The fifth problem concerns an explanation of the Life Readings. From a study of these it seems that there is a trend downward, from early incarnations, toward greater earthliness and less mentality. Then there is a swing upward, accompanied by suffering, patience, and understanding. Is this the normal pattern, which results in virtue and oneness with God obtained by free will and mind? (A) This is correct. It is the pattern as it is set in Him [Yeshua].

8. (Q) The sixth problem concerns interplanetary and inter-system dwelling, between earthly lives. It was given through this source that the entity Edgar Cayce, after the experience as Uhjltd, went to the system of Arcturus, and then returned to earth*. Does this indicate a usual or an unusual step in soul evolution? (A) As indicated, or as has been indicated in other sources besides this as respecting this very problem - Arcturus is that which may be called the center of this universe, through which individuals pass and at which period there comes the choice of the individual as to whether it is to return to complete there - that is, in this planetary system, our sun, the earth sun and its planetary system - or to pass on to others. This was an unusual step, and yet a usual one.

9. (Q) The seventh problem concerns implications from the sixth problem. Is it necessary to finish the solar system cycle before going to other systems? (A) Necessary to finish the solar cycle.

10. (Q) Can oneness be attained - or the finish of evolution reached - on any system, or must it be in a particular one? (A) Depending upon what system the entity has entered, to be sure. It may be completed in any of the many systems.

11. (Q) Must the solar cycle be finished on earth, or can it be completed on another planet, or does each planet have a cycle of its own which must be finished? (A) If it is begun on the earth it must be finished on the earth. The solar system of which the earth is a part is only a portion of the whole. For, as indicated in the number of planets about the earth, they are of one and the same - and they are relative one to another. It is the cycle of the whole system that is finished, see?

12. (Q) The eighth problem concerns the pattern made by parents at conception. Should it be said that this pattern attracts a certain soul because it approximates conditions which that soul wishes to work with? (A) It approximates conditions. It does not set. For, the individual entity or soul, given the opportunity, has its own free will to work in or out of those problems as presented by that very union. Yet the very union, of course, attracts or brings a channel or an opportunity for the expression of an individual entity.

13. (Q) Does the incoming soul take on of necessity some of the parents' karma? (A) Because of its relative relationship to same, yes. Otherwise, no.

14. (Q) Does the soul itself have an earthly pattern which fits back into the one created by the parents? (A) Just as indicated, it is relative - as one related to another; and because of the union of activities they are brought in the pattern. For in such there is the explanation of universal or divine laws, which are ever one and the same; as indicated in the expression that God moved within Himself and then He didn't change, though did bring to Himself that of His own being made crucified even in the flesh.

15. (Q) Are there several patterns which a soul might take on, depending on what phase of development it wished to work upon - i.e., could a soul choose to be one of several personalities, any of which would fit its individuality? (A) Correct.

16. (Q) Is the average fulfillment of the soul's expectation more or less than fifty percent? (A) It's a continuous advancement, so it is more than fifty percent.

17. (Q) Are hereditary, environment and will equal factors in aiding or retarding the entity's development? (A) Will is the greater factor, for it may overcome any or all of the others; provided that will is made one with the pattern, see? For, no influence of heredity, environment or what not, surpasses the will; else why would there have been that pattern shown in which the individual soul, no matter how far astray it may have gone, may enter with Him into the holy of holies?

18. (Q) The ninth problem concerns the proper symbols, or similes, for the Master, the Christ. Should Jesus be described as the soul who first went through the cycle of earthly lives to attain perfection, including perfection in the planetary lives also? (A) He should be. This is as the man, see?

19. (Q) Should this be described as a voluntary mission [of] One Who was already perfected and returned to God, having accomplished His Oneness in other planes and systems? (A) Correct.

20. (Q) Should the Christ-Consciousness be described as the awareness within each soul, imprinted in pattern on the mind and waiting to be awakened by the will, of the soul's oneness with God? (A) Correct. That's the idea exactly!

21. (Q) Please list the names of the incarnations of the Christ, and of Jesus, indicating where the development of the man Jesus began. (A) First, in the beginning, of course; and then as Enoch, Melchizedek, in the perfection. Then in the earth of Joseph, Joshua, Jeshua, Jesus [it was hinted that there were other expressions of the Christ Disk/Spirit, and even once implied that total there was some 30 lifetimes/expressions from this one].

22. (Q) The tenth problem concerns the factors of soul evolution. Should mind, the builder, be described as the last development because it should not unfold until it has a firm foundation of emotional virtues? (A) This might be answered Yes and No, both. But if it is presented in that there is kept, willfully, see, that desire to be in the at-onement, then it is necessary for that attainment before it recognizes mind as the way.

23. (Q) The eleventh problem concerns a parallel with Christianity. Is Gnosticism the closest type of Christianity to that which is given through this source? (A) This is a parallel, and was the commonly accepted one until there began to be set rules in which there were the attempts to take short cuts. And there are none in Christianity!

24. (Q) What action of the early church, or council, can be mentioned as that which ruled reincarnation from Christian theology? (A) Just as indicated - the attempts of individuals to accept or take advantage of, because of this knowledge, see?

25. (Q) Do souls become entangled in other systems as they did in this system? (A) In other systems that represent the same as the earth does in this system, yes.

26. (Q) Is there any other advice which may be given to this entity at this time in the preparation of these chapters? (A) Hold fast to that ideal, and using Him ever as the Ideal. And hold up that NECESSITY for each to meet the same problems. And DO NOT attempt to shed or to surpass or go around the Cross. THIS is that upon which each and every soul MUST look and know it is to be borne in self WITH Him."

* Hugh Lynn and/or Tom Sugrue got this part a bit off. It wasn't that Uhjltd went to Arcturus after his life, but after Ra Ta lived his human life, he went to Arcturus. Uhjltd, a later incarnation (after Ra Ta), came into this human experience from the Arcturian, or rather, Arcturus, the golden level of Love dimension/consciousness was the strongest within his Soul when he was born. But, Uhjltd ended up dying in anger/wrath towards some humans who had betrayed and murdered him and his beloved wife.