I'd like to start a thread discussing the findings of Emanuel Swedenborg. I remember there being at least one thread centered on him about ten years ago but I am unable to located it. Being a newfound believer in the Bible, I'm looking to relate Swedenborg's out of body revelations with scripture and also with what modern explorers have discovered since then.

I know that Don is particularly knowledgeable on the subject, so hopefully he can contribute.

Here is a link to one of his more fascinating books if anyone cares to do some research for the discussion: http://www.swedenborg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swedenborg_foundation_heaven_and_hell.pdf

One interesting aspect of Swedenborg's experiences is that he claims to have had elaborate conversations with angels, some which apparently lasted for long spans of time, during his normal waking life. This is something I'd like to learn more about.

One question that comes to mind in this regard is how he was able to discern whether these beings were Godly angels rather than deceptive spirits.

I plan on reading all of his works on his spiritual revelations, but I'd also be interested in hearing what others know about it.

Alan, I'd appreciate if you did not contribute any further to this thread. Doesn't seem like you'd take it in the direction I intend for it to go.

I remember reading once where he said that a being like Michael is a collection of souls that do that type of work, rather than a particular angel.

I read Heaven and Hell, and found it to be impressive, but also much of what he wrote felt "true" to me.  The stages of man/woman after death, initially where the ego is still attached, then the fading of the memory of the physical world and the "second stage" where the person pursued their true loves, without the need to pretend or wear a mask as people do in the real world.   It is often said that spirits of a similar mindset gravitate toward a similar afterlife plane, without being condemned there.  Yet who would willingly choose a hellish plane?  Well, according to ES, those who turn away from God (that which is true, and which is good) do so again in the second stage of death, when they don't have to pretend to be something else.  So if they enjoyed hurting others, or getting their ego stroked, etc., they sought out others who felt the same way.  From ES's point of view, these spirits turned away from God/heaven and willingly flung themselves into a hell, not out of atonement or a punishment, but it is where they truly wanted to be. 

On reading and rereading some text, I found that ES wanted to take the bible so literally, that he had to make up a spiritual meaning or equivalent for literally every word in the NT and old T.  Some of his spiritual meanings were beautiful, and others appeared forced.  He reasoned that if the text were divinely inspired, than every word must have a spiritual meaning. 

Keep in mind, ES had a brilliant mind, as a scientist, and scholar.  In some ways, he was on par with Davinci, and other geniuses in terms of his intelligence. 

His paranormal documented experiences (knowing that a fire was burning on the other side of Europe, and his relating conversations from the deceased back with accuracy) was  fascinating to say the least. 

Also, keep in mind that much of ES's experiences in heaven went against church doctrine at the time.  So much so that many considered his expositions to be heretical. 

I believe that much of what he wrote about was a cosmology which made sense/rang true.  But some of the writings strike me as an attempt to perfectly match scripture to spirit and so I am forced to wonder how much of his writings is his genuine experience, and how much was his amazing intellect extrapolating the way he thought things should be?

M

Not such an active thread, but then I have been commanded not to contribute, by our member that is never in his body!  ::)  :'(

DocM wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:

I am forced to wonder how much of his writings is his genuine experience, and how much was his amazing intellect extrapolating the way he thought things should be? M

Ten years ago I doubted everything he wrote because of my aversion to religion. Now I see things quite differently.

What strikes me is the frequency of his mystical experiences. Even when he wasn't "out of body," a good amount of the time a portion of his consciousness was exploring spiritual reality, like an OBE while still in the body, or aware of angels conversing with him. I think he received so much experience and information through these experiences, there was probably little room for him to invent things. I do think that his religious belief system had some influence on his experience, possibly limiting it in some areas and expanding it in others, as well as influencing his interpretation to an extent. Regarding his language, I feel he used the language he knew but in a more expanded way, going beyond the common meanings of otherwise strictly religious words and bridging the gap between fundamental interpretations and the more expanded spiritual understanding that he attained.

I believe it is important to remember that the beings of love and light that exist aren't a bunch of dummies, so they need to present information to people in ways that people will be able to accept and comprehend. In Emanuel's time both he and the beings he worked with would have to be really careful with what he said. It could be that he played a role in getting some people to forget about an eternal fire filled hell that people supposedly get punished with.


Dude, why are you viewing things differently now? Sorry to say this, sometimes it seems as if you go to extremes with the approaches you take. For a while you were interested in Buddhism. Perhaps somewhat of a middle way is needed. ;)

Hi Vince,

I read Heaven and Hell several years ago when Don was discussing Swedenborg, as well as a book recommended by Don, "The Presence of Other Worlds" by psychologist, Wilson Van Dusen, which I also recommend along with Van Dusen's "The Natural Depth in Man" and "Beauty, Wonder, and the Mystical Mind" if anyone's interested.  Van Dusen wrote extensively on ES and presents his work from both a mystical and psychological perspective that I found fascinating. 


Quote:

"One interesting aspect of Swedenborg's experiences is that he claims to have had elaborate conversations with angels, some which apparently lasted for long spans of time, during his normal waking life. This is something I'd like to learn more about."

Quote:

"I remember reading once where he said that a being like Michael is a collection of souls that do that type of work, rather than a particular angel."

Considering that we are never not connected to our source, and that we are a part of the whole of consciousness, I think it is neither surprising, nor unusual for us to have the ability to communicate with the non-physical realms on a regular basis while remaining in a normal waking state of consciousness.  What we do is essentially split our awareness while in a very relaxed state where our brain frequencies range from Alpha to Theta.  I also think we are all a collection of souls (or soul consciousness) performing individualized work as collective groups where the group consciousness appears as a singularity, such as ES's perception of Michael.

We all have individualized beliefs and bias that dictates the ways in which we think, feel and act.  I'm sure ES was no exception.  It's good to be skeptical, yet open minded enough to learn new things, but if we simply adopt someone else's experience as ultimate truth, we are only creating yet another belief system rather than discerning our own truth from our own experience.

Kathy

Recoverer 2 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2017 at 1:25pm:

Dude, why are you viewing things differently now? Sorry to say this, sometimes it seems as if you go to extremes with the approaches you take. For a while you were interested in Buddhism. Perhaps somewhat of a middle way is needed. ;)

Ironically, Buddhism teaches the middle way.

I feel your view that I have extreme approaches may come from a lack of a comprehensive understanding, but we can let it go. I don't want to divert this thread to being about me, but I'll entertain your initial question anyway.

I came to realize that I had been conditioned to reject religion and the Bible in particular. This was especially true when I got into the new age philosophy and lifestyle. But recently I began to see that almost everything I have been researching for my entire adult life, particularly spiritual philosophy, spiritual experiences, religions, conspiracies (many different realms within conspiracy culture which interconnected and pointed to the same conclusion) and alternative/paranormal experiences and perspectives all supported the teachings of the Bible in some unique and intriguing way. Personal contemplation and meditation from a more open perspective led to some pretty powerful experiences.

Back on topic, it seems the religious doctrine of hell is not actually what is taught in the Bible, but is a distortion of original scripture. Thus Swedenborg did a great service by detracting people from that fear-based belief.

Dude, thank you for the explanation.

I found Don's old thread on Swedenborg if anyone is interested. http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1124309116/0

Hey dude,

I'd be interested to know if your interest in the bible is with both the old and new testaments.  See, ES felt that both were divine works, and that every line had spiritual meaning.  I could definitely relate to that from the gospels, but the OT has long passages of stories which, however useful seem more informational.  This person begat that person and lived 130 years, etc.   ES meticulously went through scripture, often in hebrew or aramaic, and assigned a spiritual meaning to each sentence.  An incredible tour de force for sure. 

The gospels of the NT are very much in line with most New Age thought.  The two greatest laws are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  Much of the lessons in the NT are based in love, acceptance, acting selflessly, moving mountains by deep belief, etc.

M

DocM wrote on Mar 15^th, 2017 at 7:16pm:

Hey dude, I'd be interested to know if your interest in the bible is with both the old and new testaments.  See, ES felt that both were divine works, and that every line had spiritual meaning.  I could definitely relate to that from the gospels, but the OT has long passages of stories which, however useful seem more informational.  This person begat that person and lived 130 years, etc.   ES meticulously went through scripture, often in hebrew or aramaic, and assigned a spiritual meaning to each sentence.  An incredible tour de force for sure.  The gospels of the NT are very much in line with most New Age thought.  The two greatest laws are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  Much of the lessons in the NT are based in love, acceptance, acting selflessly, moving mountains by deep belief, etc. M

I am currently studying both the OT and the NT, as I believe both are equally the word of YHWH. I find a lot of the history in the OT very fascinating. I am aware of one of ES's works where he interprets the book of Genesis, and I will get around to reading it eventually, although I am currently working on a literal analysis of scripture without adding anything to it.

The aspects of New Age belief you mentioned definitely sync with Yeshua's message, although there is also a lot in NA that goes against Biblical teachings and in general I see it as more of a deceptive force than anything else.

Dude:

Yes deceptive beings exist, remember though, it is possible to find out about God's truth without fear interfering with the inquiry.

There are some new-age like sources that go overboard with their anti-bible business.  This is one extreme. Another extreme is being afraid to question some of the things the Bible says.

A while back you mentioned that you found some negative things with channeled source. Would you be interested in sharing some of what you learned?



I Am Dude wrote on Mar 16^th, 2017 at 9:35pm:

DocM wrote on Mar 15th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Hey dude, I'd be interested to know if your interest in the bible is with both the old and new testaments.  See, ES felt that both were divine works, and that every line had spiritual meaning.  I could definitely relate to that from the gospels, but the OT has long passages of stories which, however useful seem more informational.  This person begat that person and lived 130 years, etc.   ES meticulously went through scripture, often in hebrew or aramaic, and assigned a spiritual meaning to each sentence.  An incredible tour de force for sure.  The gospels of the NT are very much in line with most New Age thought.  The two greatest laws are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  Much of the lessons in the NT are based in love, acceptance, acting selflessly, moving mountains by deep belief, etc. M I am currently studying both the OT and the NT, as I believe both are equally the word of YHWH. I find a lot of the history in the OT very fascinating. I am aware of one of ES's works where he interprets the book of Genesis, and I will get around to reading it eventually, although I am currently working on a literal analysis of scripture without adding anything to it. The aspects of New Age belief you mentioned definitely sync with Yeshua's message, although there is also a lot in NA that goes against Biblical teachings and in general I see it as more of a deceptive force than anything else.

Recoverer 2 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2017 at 12:29pm:

Dude: Yes deceptive beings exist, remember though, it is possible to find out about God's truth without fear interfering with the inquiry.

I'm not approaching it with fear, but rather discernment in being aware of potential deception.


Quote:

There are some new-age like sources that go overboard with their anti-bible business.  This is one extreme. Another extreme is being afraid to question some of the things the Bible says.

Right. I realized Christ was truth before I believed the Bible was, and this was mainly because I had doubts about the Bible regarding certain alleged contradictions and other negative things written in it which I had not completely understood or which had been taken out of context. I'm currently doing in depth research into these issues I had with the Bible and pleasantly finding that my preconceived notions were largely false.


Quote:

A while back you mentioned that you found some negative things with channeled source. Would you be interested in sharing some of what you learned?

I can't say I remember exactly what you're referring to, but in general, I believe it is a real possibility that many channeled works come from demonic entities masquerading as beings of love and light. Although a few particular channels come to mind now.

One is Seth. I now believe that you were right in your assessment that he was deceptive in his degradation of Yeshua in his work. Drawing people in with complex theories of reality and throwing in a grand deception.

Another is Bashar. He claims to be an extraterrestrial who has made several prophecies regarding ET contact which have not come to pass.

Another is Paul Selig. In general his message is great but he has people constantly chant "I am Word." I know that Yeshua is considered to be the word of YHWH in the Bible, so I'm thinking that perhaps this is a way to get people to commit blasphemy. 

Dude, thank you for the response.

Regarding Paul Selig, I looked into him only a little. I read some of his books at Amazon. Some of the things he said sound okay, but I found it questionable that early on the being Paul channeled asked people to open up their crown chakras so they could enter them. I wonder how many people have opened up to such beings without knowing who they are. What I read sounds cultish.  Sounded like you have to commit to working with Paul and the beings Paul channels.

That I am word business didn't seem right to me. I've put a lot of effort into trying to grow spiritually and it never included repeating things such as "I am word."

Several years ago at some forum Paul was speaking as if his source is comparable to Seth and ACIM, I shared some of my thoughts about such sources and questioned what he is channeling, and he became quite defensive.

The double-speak thing he does while channeling seems questionable.  First he speaks with a voice that sounds demonic, and then he speaks in a regular voice. Perhaps it would be good to take this as a clue.

I can't say with complete certainty what Paul is about, but perhaps people can grow spiritually without getting involved with a channeler who channels  a being that hasn't been clearly identified.

Regarding the things Paul says that sound correct, going by what I felt when I experienced the presence of demon-like beings, some of them are quite intelligent. Apparently, intelligent enough to understand what they have to say in order to gain followers. Not much different than what deceitful people do.

Oh by the way, the beings Paul channels are so giving, they allow him to charge $400.00 for a one hour reading and $250.00 for a half hour reading. I don't like to be a flip wiseguy, but give me a break.

Recoverer 2 wrote on Mar 18^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

Oh by the way, the beings Paul channels are so giving, they allow him to charge $400.00 for a one hour reading and $250.00 for a half hour reading. I don't like to be a flip wiseguy, but give me a break.

   Yeshua used to say you could know a source by their fruits.  I think his teaching/saying could be updated for our modern, ultra materialistic/capitalistic times--you can know a source by a combo of their fruits and how much material compensation they ask in return of their spiritual service--the more they ask for less the time/work on their part, the higher the chance they are not particularly genuine or truly working with Source attuned levels. 

  Personally, I don't want and certainly don't need a red Porsche or the like. When I get my basic material needs met, shelter, food, medical, etc, I feel pretty content and blessed for the most part, most of the time. Our only consistent luxury is travel--and that's more my spouse than myself (she is quite literally addicted to traveling).   

   I think Swedenborg would probably agree?  Another one of those truths which are uncomfortable to many humans. 

   Hi Alan,

   Don't know if you remember or not, but awhile back, I gave a lengthy explanation of why I prefer to use "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus".  To sum it up very briefly/narrowly, it's my little rebellion to the Romanization of his teachings and movement.  I very much dislike why and how Rome became involved in using and manipulating his teachings/movement. 

   Also, if I had a friend, whom say was from Puerto Rico and was born with and used the name of Jose--I wouldn't call him "Joe" because I'm an English speaker.  I believe it would be more respectful to call such friends by their given birth names. 

  I don't think this Yeshua/Jesus individual particularly cares what we call him or not--he got a chuckle out of Bob Monroe labeling him as "He/She", "What I heard was a warm chuckle", then He/She says "I've never had that name before.". It's just MY preference and for a few reasons.  Besides the above points/issues, my Spirit/Disk had a life then (actually, a couple simultaneously), and both selves knew Yeshua in person.  These lifetimes are a bit of an influence in my present life.

  Again, it's a personal preference. This is not really an important issue, especially not one worth arguing about.  If you like Vanilla flavors and I prefer Chocolate flavors, I'm not going to tell you that your preference is wrong and that you should change it. It's completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Would be a waste of my breath/time as well as yours.

  There is no need to tell me my preference is wrong and that I should change it.  If it comes to an important and/or more universal issue, please feel free to try convince me about it.  I really don't mind people preaching at me; tend to find it amusing more than anything and if I sense sincerity on their part, then I try to listen to their argument/logic. 


  In any case, peace brother Alan.  I hope we can become friends in the afterlife--I get the sense that you have a pretty amazing and awesome Soul.    

wrote on Mar 21^st, 2017 at 5:39pm:

Hi Alan,    Don't know if you remember or not, but awhile back, I gave a lengthy explanation of why I prefer to use "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus".  To sum it up very briefly/narrowly, it's my little rebellion to the Romanization of his teachings and movement.  I very much dislike why and how Rome became involved in using and manipulating his teachings/movement.     Also, if I had a friend, whom say was from Puerto Rico and was born with and used the name of Jose--I wouldn't call him "Joe" because I'm an English speaker.  I believe it would be more respectful to call such friends by their given birth names.    I don't think this Yeshua/Jesus individual particularly cares what we call him or not--he got a chuckle out of Bob Monroe labeling him as "He/She", "What I heard was a warm chuckle", then He/She says "I've never had that name before.". It's just MY preference and for a few reasons.  Besides the above points/issues, my Spirit/Disk had a life then (actually, a couple simultaneously), and both selves knew Yeshua in person.  These lifetimes are a bit of an influence in my present life.   Again, it's a personal preference. This is not really an important issue, especially not one worth arguing about.  If you like Vanilla flavors and I prefer Chocolate flavors, I'm not going to tell you that your preference is wrong and that you should change it. It's completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Would be a waste of my breath/time as well as yours.   There is no need to tell me my preference is wrong and that I should change it.  If it comes to an important and/or more universal issue, please feel free to try convince me about it.  I really don't mind people preaching at me; tend to find it amusing more than anything and if I sense sincerity on their part, then I try to listen to their argument/logic.    In any case, peace brother Alan.  I hope we can become friends in the afterlife--I get the sense that you have a pretty amazing and awesome Soul.

Hi Justin,

I accept without any reservations your well thought out explanation as to why you prefer to call Jesus Yashua, and from now on promise, not to again, make an unnecessary issue about it.

By the way Justin did you know both you and I are freckle face redheads, although due to my advanced age my hair has turned totally-white? (I also wear eyeglasses)

Hi Alan, thank you for understanding.  Yes, I remember that we both have strong Celtic (which is actually originally Atlantean--the Atlanteans were the "red" ethnicity) heritage.

(Edit to add in reply to Recoverer's reply after mine. This body has plenty of same on arms etc, but not so much on face anymore. )

I've seen Justin in person twice and didn't notice the freckles. I guess he doesn't have a lot. Sorry to go off topic, I don't know what Justin's freckles have to do with Swedenborg.  :)

Recoverer 2 wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2017 at 11:21am:

I've seen Justin in person twice and didn't notice the freckles. I guess he doesn't have a lot. Sorry to go off topic, I don't know what Justin's freckles have to do with Swedenborg.  :)

Nothing really, it is just long ago Justin mentioned in a post of his that he had red hair and freckles.

Maybe his freckles sort of merged like mine did in later life and our hair color became brownish instead, like mine did as a teenager. Sadly I am now snow white!  :) ;)

A

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2017 at 8:23am:

Hi Alan, thank you for understanding.  Yes, I remember that we both have strong Celtic (which is actually originally Atlantean--the Atlanteans were the "red" ethnicity) heritage. (Edit to add in reply to Recoverer's reply after mine. This body has plenty of same on arms etc, but not so much on face anymore. )

Same with me!

Lately I've been contemplating the nature of the holy trinity of YHWH and researching the various viewpoints regarding same, trying to get an accurate sense of the concept as written in scripture. Swedenborg says the following in the very beginning of his book Heaven and Hell:


Quote:

I have often talked with angels about this, and their consistent testimony has been that in heaven they cannot divide the Divine into three because they both know and perceive that the Divine is one and that this “one” is in the Lord. They have also told me that when people arrive from earth with the idea of three divine beings they cannot be admitted to heaven. This is because their thinking vacillates between one opinion and the other, and in heaven they are not allowed to think “three” and say “one.”

This statement may seem to indicate a unitarian position rather than trinitarian, although I am aware that Swedenborg discusses the trinity in more detail in other works which I've yet to read, so my understanding of his position is still incomplete.

Swedenborg sometime brilliant writing became befuddled with ridiculous nonsense, such as little entities on the hot as hell planet mercury controlling the universe.

In my study of the Bible, I've come to learn that God actually forbids contacting and communicating with spirits and deceased humans. So coming from the perspective that the Bible is truly God's word, it makes sense that any spirit communicating with a living human will not be a spirit of God, at least not when the contact is initiated by the human, as God's angels would clearly follow God's word, and thus it seems we are dealing almost entirely with deceptive spirits and fallen angels whether it be through channeling, out of body travel, etc. This raises some major questions as to the validity of Swedenborg's writings, especially those which come from dialogues with "angels."

Vincent,

There are many instances in the bible where angels come to give messages to the people of Israel via spiritual communication.  There are also several passages dissuading the people of Israel from communicating with mediums or spirits.  Mostly this seemed to relate to straying from the worship of God, to worship other deities.

I suppose it depends on your belief system.  If you choose to believe that the Old and New Testaments are to be taken literally, then your belief system will limit you.  Thus orthodox and religious Jews will not shave their facial hair or eat pork.  Yet various reforms have been made over the centuries.  Christians at some point decided that they need not follow the biblical commands of the old testament to keep Kosher, etc. as they were given a new testament.  Yet these laws were never specifically lifted or dismissed.

I would never get in the way of a person and their belief system, except to say this.  A quote I rather like from Marianne Williamson: "Nothing binds you, except your thoughts;  Nothing limits you, except your fear; and nothing controls you, except your beliefs."

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 13^th, 2017 at 9:29pm:

In my study of the Bible, I've come to learn that God actually forbids contacting and communicating with spirits and deceased humans. So coming from the perspective that the Bible is truly God's word, it makes sense that any spirit communicating with a living human will not be a spirit of God, at least not when the contact is initiated by the human, as God's angels would clearly follow God's word, and thus it seems we are dealing almost entirely with deceptive spirits and fallen angels whether it be through channeling, out of body travel, etc. This raises some major questions as to the validity of Swedenborg's writings, especially those which come from dialogues with "angels."

Exactly and you wanted to ban me from commenting or contributing in this thread?

I agree with Alan and Dude. Trying  to communicate with the afterlife, including those who we think are helpful guides, is a fool's errand. I also think ES at some level understood that. Some of his outlandish "findings" like life on Venus or the moon should be a huge red flag. Strange that ES knew about the deception and yet put that stuff in his books.

Remember also that RAM wrote that he met a miniature version of W. C. Fields from another planet, who told Bob his mission was to collect jokes to cheer up his unhappy planet. Not to mention the infamous sexual pile.

R

How did Jesus know about the things he knew about? It could be that he wasn't afraid to communicate with the spirit realm of being.

Yes, there are unfriendly beings out there, and apparently a number of people (e.g.; some channelers) get fooled by such beings, but that doesn't mean that nobody should make contact with the world of spirit.

Say a person wants to open up to divine love. In order to do so such a person will have to open up to the level of being where love-based spirit beings abide.  Even if a person doesn't have some sort of communication with such beings, this doesn't mean that such beings aren't there.

Is it okay to pray? Is it okay to receive help? Is it okay if somebody feels love and peace when he or she prays? If so, where does such love and peace come from?

Sure unfriendly beings can fool people, but so can books that supposedly have words that come from love-based beings. So a person always needs to use his (or her) discrimination, regardless of whether or not he makes conscious contact with spirit beings.

Plus, unfriendly beings are able to influence people even if people don't make conscious contact with them.  If you make conscious contact with them, you are more likely to see where unfriendly suggestions come from and refute them.  On the other hand, if a person is committed to being a good person, he or she can do well without making conscious contact.

I used to be afraid of unfriendly beings. This hurt me spiritually and made it difficult for me to open up to my spirit self, its connection to God and divine love. Nevertheless, I ventured "up" the route of communicating with spirit beings, and through a mixture of actual experiences with unfriendly beings and simulated experiences that my guidance created, I overcame most of my fear. I  say "most" as opposed to all, because the negativity unfriendly beings represent is unpleasant.

Because I did the above I am able to help with retrievals in a way that includes helping people that are  troubled by unfriendly beings. 

If we allow unfriendly beings to determine what we open up to spiritually, then we allow them to determine how much we grow spiritually. A part of opening up to God and the Oneness we are all a part of, is not being afraid of anything. Because we have free will and grace is always present, we'll always be okay as long as we choose wisely.

There is a difference between us humans and Jesus, who was God incarnate. Christ had direct communion with the heavenly Father in a way that no human can, as he was essentially one with the Father, and according to the Bible, we are separated in our sin. There is good reason why God does not want us contacting the spirit world through occult means.

There is also a difference between God and God's angels making contact with humans as part of God's divine plan, and humans attempting to make contact with disincarnate spirits through occult means as part of their sinful ego's plan.

It's not a matter of being fearful of deceptive spirits. It's a matter of loving God enough to follow his word.

Deuteronomy 18:9-14

When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-sorcery.html

Dude:

Do you actually believe that God finds people detestable simply because they try to contact spirits with good intentions? Surely God can see into our hearts and know our intentions. Would he prefer us to act in a way that is courageous, or in a way that is fear based?

The Bible wasn't written by God himself. It was written by numerous men, men decided which chapters will be included, and men did the translating. There is more than one version of the Bible and numerous Christian denominations.

I believe I was correct the other day when I said that it seems as if you tend to be an extremist. I don't believe you are doing yourself a favor by following a path that seems so literal and fear based.

Moses was the author of Deuteronomy. Elsewhere within the Bible it says that Moses was told by God that when a lady gives birth to a son she is impure for four weeks and should stay away from others and sacrifice several animals (I don't remember which animals were named). If a lady gives birth to a girl, she is impure for 8 weeks and should sacrifice other types of animals. Do you believe that Moses actually received instructions from God, or perhaps he claimed to do so, and provided his own rules, or rules from whatever?

I love God to an extent where I will not allow myself to conclude that he gave instructions to people that don't make sense. Since my reasons for thinking in such a way are pure, I doubt that God finds me detestable.

Seriously, read everything Moses wrote with a mind that is free to discriminate, and see if everything he said seems acceptable.



I Am Dude wrote on Apr 14^th, 2017 at 12:15pm:

There is a difference between us humans and Jesus, who was God incarnate. Christ had direct communion with the heavenly Father in a way that no human can, as he was essentially one with the Father, and according to the Bible, we are separated in our sin. There is good reason why God does not want us contacting the spirit world through occult means. There is also a difference between God and God's angels making contact with humans as part of God's divine plan, and humans attempting to make contact with disincarnate spirits through occult means as part of their sinful ego's plan. It's not a matter of being fearful of deceptive spirits. It's a matter of loving God enough to follow his word. Deuteronomy 18:9-14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-sorcery.html

Albert,

Yes, I agree with you.  During the council of Nicea, the main chapters for the NT were chosen and many gospels and texts which HAD been thought of the word of God were dismissed as not being worthy or essential - by men.  Constantine and others needed to consolidate the dozens of gospels, testaments, etc. into an essential text. 

My alarms and red flags go up when I try to have a discussion and I get scripture quoted to me, which does not acknowledge any discussion.  JC's parables and teachings were about love, love of God (what is good and what is true) and love of the neighbor.  The passages given as warnings against false prophets, mediums, etc. were for a purpose, not doubt.  But they were few and far between. 

I believe the warnings are for people to put their faith in God, and not in a substitute (medium, channeled spirit).  The thing that concerns me about this thread is that some Christians see themselves as separate from the divine.  For that reason, they need scripture to tell them what is divine - but in doing so, they separate themselves even more from the divine.  Jesus told his disciples that they can do what he did, and that following his path (of love) they can become what he became (one with the Father, love and heaven).  The idea then that one should feel unworthy of this is sad to me.  The notion of man being born in sin, and hellfire without following dictates written in the Bible is a fear based approach to God's love.  It doesn't work.  Well it works, but for the wrong reasons.

If a person follows the laws not because he incorporates the spirit of the gospels into his heart, but because he feels he is a damned sinner and has no other hope of redemption, then he/she is acting in the right way for the wrong reasons.

I would rather find the insight of the gospels that love is our nature.  That we are all one, and that God's love is our foundation.  That we are not sinners, but but part of a greater whole of consciousness.  In doing so, i feel that I will follow right action from my heart, not out of fear.

M

I think there are very good reasons for God's laws, some of which it seems you have yet to consider. I also think that a person following his own way would consider what you've said to be courageous, while one following God's word may consider it foolish or shortsighted.

You can make this a personal thing and call me extremist, although from my perspective, I'm simply a guy who likes to do things the right way and give his all. You are mistaken to think that what I've said has anything to do with fear, although I've already explained that and you seem to have ignored it.

Anyone familiar with the many cases of negative, if not downright horrendous, life-ruining consequences of messing around in the spirit world understands the reason why our Heavenly Father forbids such a thing. Most cases may not even be realized for what they truly are due to the extremely deceptive nature of Satan and his crew and how blind a person can be when their ego is being gratified by such mystical experiences and one's attachments to such things is so strong.

By the way, the Counsel of Nicea myth has long been debunked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLtcREw5TJ8

Oh, come on Dude. Tell me about the life threatening experiences you have had while phasing. There is no such thing. It is all one's own fear in one's own face.

Do a little research into demonic attacks and possession. It's quite real. As for me, I've had my share of experiences which would deter any sane individual from continuing astral projection.

Vincent,

The events of Nicea have not been written down precisely.  However over time, biblical texts were chosen for the NT.  Biblical scholars argue over the time of the writing of some of the gospels.  You can research this as you see fit (i.e. - the consensus as to when each of the gospels was, in fact written).  My point isn't to question faith, but rather the acknowledgement that there was an agreement as to what was and wasn't going to be included in the canon at different points in time.

Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110 (a pre-70 date remains a minority view). 

The gospel of Mark "was probably written c.AD 66–70, during Nero's persecution of the Christians in Rome or the Jewish revolt, as suggested by internal references to war in Judea and to persecution."

As to the choosing of scripture to include in the NT:  In the Synod of 397 (a good source to research),

"The primary source of information about the third council of Carthage comes from the Codex Canonum Ecclesiæ Africanæ, which presents a compilation of ordinances enacted by various church councils in Carthage during the fourth and fifth centuries. In one section of this code the following paragraph concerning the canon of Scripture appears

"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. Because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept."

I can understand the concept that the teachings of Jesus, the gospels, demonstrate God's love and  for all to see and follow.  Since the NT was written and arranged by man, I'm not sure that quoting scripture as if each line were written by an anthropomorphic God for us to obey or not at our own peril makes any sense (to me).  Again, I see that as a fear based approach (not your own personal approach, but the approach of "do as it says here or be damned.")

I do respect your own experience with astral travel and negative entities.  I don't doubt that negative entities exist.  However, a blanket statement that due to your reading of scripture, all spiritual contact should be avoided and is likely demonic is unsubstantiated, although interesting.  I don't think one can dismiss the likes of Swedenborg, Monroe, and other explorers so easily.

M

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 14^th, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Do a little research into demonic attacks and possession. It's quite real. As for me, I've had my share of experiences which would deter any sane individual from continuing astral projection.

http://reasonsforjesus.com/astral-projection-exposed/


I have long told of the very real dangers of astral projection, in my case my consciousness twice ended up in the body of another person which was very very frighting

There is a form of OOBE and that is in death, in which we leave our bodies for the final time and take on glorious eternal spirit bodies fabricated by the Almighy to last forever.

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 14^th, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Do a little research into demonic attacks and possession. It's quite real. As for me, I've had my share of experiences which would deter any sane individual from continuing astral projection.

Hi I am not joking when I suggest you change your avatar name to Vincent and not OutofBody Dude. May God bless you as the knowledge of the Truth takes over ever facet of your being

Jesus was/is exactly who he said he was, which was not an adept but totally unique as part of the Godhead made manifest as a human being.

Alan

Alan

Well, I am sorry if people have had such experiences and I really don't know what it has to do with a book written by numerous sources throughout history. I have never once seen anything of the sort. I have had so many interesting experiences over the years and not once have I been threatened or harmed by anything. In fact, I have always been free to leave any situation which was not of my choosing. There were times, however, that I did not realize that.

Vince,

There are many reasons why the Bible cannot be taken literally, but I think one very good reason is that it has been translated numerous times and much could have been lost in these translations.  For example the first English version was done by William Tyndale who was accused of willfully perverting the meaning of the scriptures, yet his work became the foundation of subsequent English versions.  For the Old Testament only later versions of manuscripts have survived, with the exception of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the texts of Isaiah and Habakkuk as well as a few fragments of other books, so the established versions were derived from text that were many centuries after the books were written. 

For the New Testament there are a large number of Greek manuscripts, some of which were only two or three centuries old and the revisions were based on Hebrew and Aramaic text from the early Christian era and revised by Jewish scholars from the sixth to ninth centuries.  Throughout the centuries there were likely copy errors, language errors such as vowel sounds were an issue, along with the meaning and understanding of the original languages.  In addition, much of the Old Testament was written in prophetic symbols and apocalyptic language.

While I do believe the Bible is more than classic literature or a historical document, I do not believe that it can be taken line for line in a literal manner, but must be seen as a whole; as a record of God revealing himself among men.  The one thread or theme that I believe ties the entire scripture together is God's promise to Abraham that he has been blessed to be a blessing, as we all are going forward. 

Kathy

PS Don, in several of his posts indicated that in the New Testament retrievals are discussed.  He also fully acknowledged the existence of evil spirits, yet never discouraged anyone from astral projection.

Alan that's a great website, I already had it saved in my bookmarks! Interesting idea about changing my name, I'll think it over. Thanks!

Doc, I had the idea that you were Jewish.

Of course it can't be proven that all spirit contact is demonic, but there is evidence that suggests a lot of it is, especially from a Christian perspective. Some get the idea that contact with demonic entities will result in becoming possessed like the exorcist movies, but it seems most demons have a more subtle and deceptive approach. Had this just been something written in the Bible with nothing in reality to back it up, I may have considered it to be a false teaching, but rather the evidence is overwhelming that there is a deceptive agenda unfolding. There was a time when I would have shunned this idea, but it's clear to me now.

Regarding the Bible, many doubts regarding its legitimacy seem to come from the false assumption that the Heavenly Father doesn't have the power to create a body of text that is in accord with his will and that He is unable or unwilling to exert influence in the minds and hearts of man. However, as this is a thread about Swedenborg, this part of the conversation may be verging off-topic, although being that Swedenborg himself was Christian, it was interesting to note that a lot of what he was doing was actually against his religion. But even he said that one should not trust what he had said regarding his communications with spirits and that great caution should be headed for one dabbling in such things, so I believe he may have understood the dangers.

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 15^th, 2017 at 9:03am:

Alan that's a great website, I already had it saved in my bookmarks! Interesting idea about changing my name, I'll think it over. Thanks! Doc, I had the idea that you were Jewish. Of course it can't be proven that all spirit contact is demonic, but there is evidence that suggests a lot of it is, especially from a Christian perspective. Some get the idea that contact with demonic entities will result in becoming possessed like the exorcist movies, but it seems most demons have a more subtle and deceptive approach. Had this just been something written in the Bible with nothing in reality to back it up, I may have considered it to be a false teaching, but rather the evidence is overwhelming that there is a deceptive agenda unfolding. There was a time when I would have shunned this idea, but it's clear to me now. Regarding the Bible, many doubts regarding its legitimacy seem to come from the false assumption that the Heavenly Father doesn't have the power to create a body of text that is in accord with his will and that He is unable or unwilling to exert influence in the minds and hearts of man. However, as this is a thread about Swedenborg, this part of the conversation may be verging off-topic, although being that Swedenborg himself was Christian, it was interesting to note that a lot of what he was doing was actually against his religion. But even he said that one should not trust what he had said regarding his communications with spirits and that great caution should be headed for one dabbling in such things, so I believe he may have understood the dangers.

What puts some people off the bible is that it depicts the world and its people "warts and all" and not as they should be in an ideal world.

If you find the Old Testament hard to accept, remember this, Jesus came and in him was a new contact or agreement set up between man and God made, making the most of the Old Testament null and void.

Jesus once said to his disciples, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your mind and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Jesus elaborated even further by stating if you do just that you have fulfilled both the law and the prophets (Meaning you have fulfilled all the conditions set out in the bible, by no less than Almighy God himself)

Also people get it wrong as far as the attributes of God are concerned. It is wrong to think that Gods has only one attribute, namely benevolence, because God allows evil to exist, so that we can freely choose to reject him or freely follow and love him. God wants companions not robots that will be forced into loving and accepting him. 

Lights of Love wrote on Apr 15^th, 2017 at 9:01am:

Vince, There are many reasons why the Bible cannot be taken literally, but I think one very good reason is that it has been translated numerous times and much could have been lost in these translations.  For example the first English version was done by William Tyndale who was accused of willfully perverting the meaning of the scriptures, yet his work became the foundation of subsequent English versions.  For the Old Testament only later versions of manuscripts have survived, with the exception of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the texts of Isaiah and Habakkuk as well as a few fragments of other books, so the established versions were derived from text that were many centuries after the books were written.  For the New Testament there are a large number of Greek manuscripts, some of which were only two or three centuries old and the revisions were based on Hebrew and Aramaic text from the early Christian era and revised by Jewish scholars from the sixth to ninth centuries.  Throughout the centuries there were likely copy errors, language errors such as vowel sounds were an issue, along with the meaning and understanding of the original languages.  In addition, much of the Old Testament was written in prophetic symbols and apocalyptic language. While I do believe the Bible is more than classic literature or a historical document, I do not believe that it can be taken line for line in a literal manner, but must be seen as a whole; as a record of God revealing himself among men.  The one thread or theme that I believe ties the entire scripture together is God's promise to Abraham that he has been blessed to be a blessing, as we all are going forward.  Kathy PS Don, in several of his posts indicated that in the New Testament retrievals are discussed.  He also fully acknowledged the existence of evil spirits, yet never discouraged anyone from astral projection.

If you wish to debate the Bible, please make another thread. Thanks.

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 15^th, 2017 at 10:28am:

Lights of Love wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 9:01am: Vince, There are many reasons why the Bible cannot be taken literally, but I think one very good reason is that it has been translated numerous times and much could have been lost in these translations.  For example the first English version was done by William Tyndale who was accused of willfully perverting the meaning of the scriptures, yet his work became the foundation of subsequent English versions.  For the Old Testament only later versions of manuscripts have survived, with the exception of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the texts of Isaiah and Habakkuk as well as a few fragments of other books, so the established versions were derived from text that were many centuries after the books were written.  For the New Testament there are a large number of Greek manuscripts, some of which were only two or three centuries old and the revisions were based on Hebrew and Aramaic text from the early Christian era and revised by Jewish scholars from the sixth to ninth centuries.  Throughout the centuries there were likely copy errors, language errors such as vowel sounds were an issue, along with the meaning and understanding of the original languages.  In addition, much of the Old Testament was written in prophetic symbols and apocalyptic language. While I do believe the Bible is more than classic literature or a historical document, I do not believe that it can be taken line for line in a literal manner, but must be seen as a whole; as a record of God revealing himself among men.  The one thread or theme that I believe ties the entire scripture together is God's promise to Abraham that he has been blessed to be a blessing, as we all are going forward.  Kathy PS Don, in several of his posts indicated that in the New Testament retrievals are discussed.  He also fully acknowledged the existence of evil spirits, yet never discouraged anyone from astral projection. If you wish to debate the Bible, please make another thread. Thanks.

That's a ridiculous statement considering the majority of posts on this thread have been debating the Bible, yours included.

If you want to discuss Swedenborg why don't you get more specific posing some actual text he wrote or be more specific by quoting something he said.

I've only brought up the Bible in the way it relates to Swedenborg, his work and the practices he was involved with. I'd like to stay on topic, so again, if you care to discuss the Bible with me, I'll engage in another thread.

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 15^th, 2017 at 11:19am:

I've only brought up the Bible in the way it relates to Swedenborg, his work and the practices he was involved with. I'd like to stay on topic, so again, if you care to discuss the Bible with me, I'll engage in another thread.

I also do not get it, rather than discuss the bible and maybe the most perfect life and works of in the person of Jesus, you now want us to debate at length, one of the most egotistical fakes and proven fake at that in Swedenborg.

He had nothing to offer the world other than the most ridiculous fabricated stories ever written outside of fantasy, science fiction.

Nonsense is nonsense even if the most intelligent sprouts it.

You were right I do not belong in this thread!

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 15^th, 2017 at 11:19am:

I've only brought up the Bible in the way it relates to Swedenborg, his work and the practices he was involved with. I'd like to stay on topic, so again, if you care to discuss the Bible with me, I'll engage in another thread.

That is an oxymoron Swedenborg did nothing or wrote nothing that could be connected in truth to the bible, He was  a delusional liar of cosmic proportions

Vincent,

Yes, I see that you are having trouble leading your own thread. 

Your assumption is incorrect.  I have no interest in debating the Bible though I have formally studied both the Old and New Testaments, as well as taught them at one point in my life.  My post was in response to what you and other posters had previously posed, nevertheless, let's do get your thread back to the subject of Emanuel Swedenborg.

ES indicates that spirits or what he refers to as "angels" (he calls discarnate humans angels), are affections or feelings, the inner or essential aspects of mind that underlie mere thought or memory.  "Teaching in the heavens differs from teaching on earth in that (there) knowledges are not consigned to memory but to life, since spirits' memory is in their life.  They actually accept and absorb whatever agrees with their life and do not accept, much less absorb, what does not agree.  This is because spirits are affections, and therefore have a human form that resembles their affections." Heaven and Hell 517

In other words, what we are is consciousness or an individualized system of information called a human or "natural man" by ES. 

According to ES, what the spirit experiences is a reflection of inner experiences.  "What is seen and experienced is representative of the inner states.  Spiritually rich inner states reflect in a surrounding that is gorgeous and rich.  Barren inner states reflect in wretched surroundings.  The spirit experiences what it is… Yet it is already our real tendency to notice and experience in the world what reflects us inwardly.  The thief experiences a world in which everyone takes what he can get.  In the same setting, the artist experiences the beauty of the things around him.  What we encounter in the world reflects our nature." Heaven and Hell 517

The experience of this is also true in astral projection.  All that fundamentally exists are other beings, or rather the individualized consciousness of other beings.  What we "see" in the non-physical is representative of our inner state of consciousness.  If, inwardly we are in a loving, compassionate state this is communicated to us by beautiful surroundings.  If, inwardly we are in an angry, fearful state this is communicated to us by surroundings in which that state is reflected back to us.  All is dependent on what exists in our personal consciousness, so a fearful state may reflect back to us hideous evil beings, hell fire, monsters, thunderous, roaring sounds, etc., where a loving state may reflect back to us beautiful fields of greenery, flowers, beings of love and light, beautiful music, etc.  All that is depicted in the non-physical is symbolic and representative of our inner state of being.

ES states that what corresponds to time is a change of state, and that the "time" of heaven is the "always now" time of the inner state.  He said, "I was raised into the sphere of heaven and therefore into the perception of eternity shared by angels.  This shed light for me on the fact that we ought not to think about eternity in temporal terms but in terms of state, and that when we do, we can grasp what 'from eternity' entails, which was actually done for me." Heaven and Hell 167

ES also said there is no space in heaven.  What corresponds to distance is the feelings people have for each other.  "People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states.  It is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones…  This is why in the spiritual world one individual is present to another if only that presence is intensely desired.  This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance."  Heaven and Hell 193 - 196

In my own experience over many years with the non-physical, as well as the experiences others have described, including ES, it appears that there are at least two possibilities of who or what we interact with.  One is the possibility of interacting with an "illusion" or "vision" dictated by our inner state.  For example if we are in a state of fear we may see a monstrous being in surroundings that represent our own fearful state of being.  Or two, we could be interacting with an actual entity whose bodily appearance is representative of its own inner state, which was drawn to us, or, us to it, because of our own state of being.

Hi Kathy-

Thanks for the post on ES. I was especially struck by the following:

"ES states that what corresponds to time is a change of state, and that the "time" of heaven is the "always now" time of the inner state.  He said, "I was raised into the sphere of heaven and therefore into the perception of eternity shared by angels.  This shed light for me on the fact that we ought not to think about eternity in temporal terms but in terms of state, and that when we do, we can grasp what 'from eternity' entails, which was actually done for me."

In one of Michael Newton's books, his client(s) while under deep hypnosis, described time in much the same way. Also the definition of progress was based on how our own inner state becomes more enlightened.

The experience of Howard Storm corroborates what ES said. We see or experience the kind of entities/environment that correspond to our own inner state. Ayk, Storm understood the meaning and lesson of his horrific experience to the point that he turned his life around, becoming a minister.

Without question ES did more exploration of the afterlife than anyone else. He deserves to be studied. I would never describe him as having malevolent motives. As to the things he wrote about beings on Venus and Mars, at least IMO, represents the deception about which he warned. I admit, however, that he did not qualify those reports and represented them as genuine. I don't understand his putting forth those things as true.

R

I created this thread to discuss Swedenborg's ideas, especially as they relate to Christianity, as I've been (slowly) reading his book Heaven and Hell, so I've been posting questions and comments as they've naturally arisen. I'm not worried about being a leader of the thread, I simply want to stay on topic. Although, your admitted strongest point about the bible being unreliable due to it being translated "numerous times" and the assumption that content must have been lost directly relates to ES and is rather ironic, as ES's work has been translated just as many times as the Bible has- ONCE- from the language of the earliest manuscripts available directly into English and every other modern day language. Thus this line of argumentation is completely deceptive.

Sure, there are thousands of translations, but not because you need to translate the original texts thousands of times before we get the English translation, but because there are thousands of languages in the world. Again, only one translation is needed to go from the original to the modern day language. Also, so many early manuscripts from various authors exist that it is quite easy to compare them to see what corresponds and matches and what doesn't, thus clearly fleshing out the mistakes, modifications, deletions and additions.

So in making this relevant to ES, the same line of argument would likewise render ES's work unreliable, as it too has been translated.

      Swedenborg is not an area or subject I know much about, which is why I haven't commented too much on this thread.  I am fairly versed regarding the Bible though.  I've found that the Bible has different layers to it.  Some of it literal history with moral lesson.  Some of it is metaphorical and allegorical. Some of it is a mix. 

  Without attuning to the various different minds whom were involved in writing same, or being very attuned to expanded guidance and being very intuitive, it's hard to know which is which at times.  Some things though, do seem pretty obvious. For example, the Universe/creation being created on the 6th day, should not be taken literal.  Day could mean period or cycle, and the whole 7 concept might relate to numerology and the archetypal structure or cyclic nature underlying creation.  Or, it could just being the writer trying to impress the reader with the awesomeness of the Creator.  Or, it could be both at the same time.   

  Also, context. The OT part of the Bible was written at periods of human history that were particularly brutal and slow vibratory in nature.  The various commandments and truths uttered then may have had some practical applicability then, but not necessarily now or some much earlier, more fast vibratory cycle. Often times, people barely acted beyond animals, and there was all kinds of issues and imbalances going on.  These people literally needed to whacked up side the head with a 2X4 as far as guidance went.  If guidance had taken the form of some kind of soft, feminine, non visible figure--one, it wouldn't have been perceived very well, and two--the huge majority of people would have ignored it anyways.  No, it had to be more loud and in people's faces then. 

  As Cayce's guidance often said, "truth is a growing thing". 

  It seems that Swedenborg didn't fully get the relativity of this, and was too attached to the Bible as a source of TRUTH in some kind of final, or ultimate sense.  Well, this is somewhat true in the sense that TRUTH in the final and ultimate sense came in the personhood and lifetime of Yeshua.  And what did he teach over and over and over again?  Love for all, universally and unconditionally. 

  In this teaching is all truth contained, for if one can attune to that precept, that ideal, then all else, all other wisdom, will be given to a person. 

  As regards Swedenborg's words and teachings about life and people on other planets, in some ways, it sounds like what Cayce's guidance talked about in relation to astrology and other life in this system.  The difference being is that Cayce's guidance didn't say that this other life in our solar system was physical, but that it was nonphysical or in different other levels of consciousness. 

  This IS true, and Swedenborg was sensing/perceiving this truth, but garbling it some with overly physical metaphors and overlaying.   Each Planet in our Solar system represents a particular dimension in a system of consciousness that the Earth is just one part of.  The Earth obviously is the physical level, which has other meanings beyond what we perceive as physicality.  It's hard for humans to get beyond physical thinking, even when we are open minded to other dimensions and the nonphysical.  For example, earlier, Matthew referred to the physical as "the real world" in contrast with the nonphysical. 

  That's interesting, because individuals in very expanded dimensions, consider this dimension in many ways to be the least "real" in a consciousness sense.  Yet, it's fairly typical of the huge majority of human's thinking. 

  Anyways, in this system of consciousness, that the physical Solar system represents, the Earth represents one of the slowest vibratory levels.  Saturn is even more slow vibratory and represents the temporal "hells" that Bruce and others have talked about.  Such states of such lack of Love can eventually lead to dissolution of the Soul's identity, which is why Cayce's guidance connected Saturn to the destruction of an individual. 

   On the other hand, Jupiter and the Sun represent very, very expanded and spiritualized states of consciousness within THIS system of consciousness.  The individuals focused within these levels, are much, much more consciously in touch with their Disk/Expanded selves.  They are also very service and more universally love oriented. 

  In between these extremes or polar opposites are various other levels, of which other Planets such as Venus, Mars, Mercury, Moon, Uranus, etc represent and correspond to in a physical sense. 

  Interestingly, I've found in my study of astrology as it relates to the larger consciousness system, that the different Planets (aka the different consciousness levels of our system or the "afterlife focuses") also have a correlation with different colors and the different endocrine glands.  This is something that Cayce's guidance also touched upon, but didn't go into a lot of depth about. 

  But since it's part of a whole or One system, these kind of interrelationships and reflections can and do happen.   What we experience as the physical, is a mix of all the above.  From Saturn (slowest vibratory) to Sun (fastest vibratory).  These and all that is in between can be experienced and attuned to here in the physical, and humans themselves are a conglomerate mix of various different levels and influences. 

Here, we have linear cause and effect (karma), to help us try to grow more.  So that eventually, we get to the Solar level (which is very Love attuned), and then can graduate OUT of this system to more expanded systems.  Cayce's guidance called the Star Arcturus the "door" or "center" out of this system into more expanded systems. (Cayce's guidance indicated that sometimes a Soul or Spirit does this and then comes back for service reasons rather than for the lessons of this system).

  Not the literal, physical Star we see in the night sky, but the nonphysical or consciousness counterpart.  For everything natural that we perceive in the physical, has it's original reflection or source in the nonphysical/consciousness. 

   So yes, in a manner of allegorical speaking, Swedenborg was correct about other life in the Solar system, he just overly physicalized and somewhat misinterpreted it. People are still doing this some with Cayce's guidance about other life in this Solar system.  When asked if there was any current physical life on the other Planets in our solar system (as in originating from there), this source said "no", but they did talk about the consciousness or nonphysical aspect of this system. 

  As to communicating with Spirits etc, the Bible is not black and white on this issue.  I agree with Matthew that it was/is a bit more relative.  Mainly, the Bible wanted people to focus on God and the bigger picture and not get too hung up on one's dead granny or the like.  The reason is, is because people don't necessarily become all wise and all loving just because they've died. And yes, there is potential deception that can occur in communicating with the nonphysical. 

  No, the Bible seems to emphasize getting guidance from God and those fully attuned to God as a preferable method.  Which is something that Cayce's guidance outlined time and time again as well.  Cayce's guidance said when praying and meditating, we should always seek the highest and most expanded there is, aka the Creator and those individuals fully one with God. 

  In this, is much pragmatism.  They did say that IF God and these God beings send a messenger or guide of some sort, that was ok because it was divinely orchestrated, but they said do not seek communication and communion with any regular guide in and of themselves.

    Neither Cayce's guidance nor the Bible said flat out that you shouldn't be seeking guidance at all, but rather, they both put the emphasis on getting guidance from God and those individuals most intune with God--aka the beings I tend to refer to as the "Co-Creators". 

  As regards Yeshua Vince, do not put him over much on a pedestal--he does not want that. What he achieved, other humans can as well.  Yes, it's true that his Spirit/Disk is the Co-Creator of the original patterns within this Universe, yes it's true that he came to Earth direct from the core of Source, but what he is, we are too and can become, and that's what he wants. 

   I had a dream awhile back, towards the end of a 7 day fast, where the female self from Bob Monroe's Disk referred to me as Immanuel or Emmanuel.  This was guidance saying that I have the potential to become like Yeshua in the flesh, for that is what he was referred to as well by Isaiah.  That name means/translates to "God among us" or "God is with us".  Isaiah referred to Yeshua as Immanuel because he was saying that this messiah, this person whom was literally named Yeshua, was God in the flesh.  Not that Yeshua is The God, but of same vibration and likeness.  Yeshua himself referred to The God as a separate being, and most often referred to him as his or the Abba (which means Father).   

We ALL have that potential because we all are of and parts of God. For many, it's not even close to being probable to express that within this particular, current human life, but that's not particularly important in and of itself.  Yeshua and those like him (the completed, Co-Creator beings) are our elder siblings.  They are us, but us fully grown up to be like their Parent(s).  It's important to respect and listen to these elder siblings, but also to realize that this is all of our's destiny and heritage. 

  If we overly put Yeshua on an unreachable pedestal, then it will be mighty hard to become fully like him, which is what he, God, and those fully attuned to these want for us. 

  I have to agree with Albert--you have a definite tendency to the extremes. I would be willing to bet that the Planet Uranus is very strong in your astrological chart.  This is not meant as a personal criticism, but just as describing a trait, a tendency and something to be more consciously aware of so that you can grow beyond same. 

Roger,

Good points and insights.  ES described many concepts that were completely foreign to both people of his time and church doctrine.  He decided to reinterpret church doctrine in light of his spiritual experiences. So he took the NT and line by line, deciphered what he saw as the obvious or hidden spiritual meaning behind it. 

With regard to life on other planets, etc., certainly he may have misinterpreted what he was seeing...or he may have seen things about which we are not yet aware (remember the earth was once known to be flat....until it wasn't).  I think when a person is phasing or traveling in a mental plane, they are still interpreting their experience through their own mind and belief system.  Swedenborg was unusual in that he had such a sharp mind and was so discerning, that he could bring back with him a lot of information and interpretations of this bigger reality.  Yet if he faltered or misinterpreted things, one can certainly understand it. 

Having read Heaven and Hell and a number of his texts, I am awed by how many varied conversations he had in depth with angels.  Indeed, several times, he says "I have conversed with angels in depth on this matter..." and one could only imagine that he was in a catatonic stupor for weeks to have all these conversations.  More likely, if real, then the conversations in the mental/spiritual plane occurred over a much shorter period as time there has no meaning.  Or, something I have considered is that Swedenborg took poetic license and got the gist of how things worked, and then logically deduced much of what he wrote as if all were first hand experience.  His mind was so scientific and logical that like a grand chess master, he could extrapolate spiritual truths one from another and then see the whole joyous cosmology with clarity. 

For me, the most important thing that I feel when I read Swedenborg is the sense of truth when he describes his experiences.  What he describes feels true to me and what I've known in life so far.

As to dictates from the words of the OT or NT, as you can tell, that is less of an interest to me. Of all the people I know who have had life transforming experiences, (including Don on this board), none have had them simply from scripture itself, but from their own exploration and personal experience with the divine.

Quote:

Yet if he faltered or misinterpreted things, one can certainly understand it.

   The thing is, every Soul connected to a human body misinterprets, falters, distorts to some extent when it comes to perception. 

  This is for two main reasons:  One, because of our connection to and expression through a dense, animal body that is very limited and distorted in various ways, and two, because of our Souls are not fully attuned to Source and PUL. 

    If we can change those two aspects, then can an individual come to perfect or near perfect perception.  We can change those two aspects.  That is a big part of the message and meaning of Yeshua's life and resurrection. 

  He changed those two aspects. And now, he is in the world, but no longer of it.  His perception is so, so, so, so, so more expanded and accurate than ours, until we too change those two aspects. 

  Hence, every source that does not fulfill or align to those two conditions, should be taken with some grains of salt, for they can make easily make mistakes or have distortions in there perceptions. As I've mentioned some here before, the source that I've found that has come closest to purity of perception from a non pure/fully aligned to those two above conditions, is Edgar Cayce's readings (but again, with the caveat that even this source contains some distortion). 

  I challenge folks to read Sidney Kirkpatrick's biography of him and not be blown away by his life and the service he was involved in.  It is the most comprehensive, most accurate, and balanced biography on Cayce and his work (and there are many biographies out there on Cayce).

      

http://www.swedenborg.org/Beliefs.aspx

God is infinitely loving and at the center of every life.
Truth is love in action. Actions performed out of love are genuine expressions in a physical form of what love means.

There is one God whose essence is Divine Love and Wisdom. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all aspects of God just as body, mind, and soul are all aspects of one person.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God that provides inspiration and help to lead better and more fulfilling lives. The literal sense of Scripture tells the story of the people of God, and contains a deeper meaning that illumines the journey of the human soul.

People are essentially spirits clothed with material bodies. At death, the material body is laid aside and the person continues to live on in the world of spirit choosing a heavenly life or a hellish one, based on the quality of life choices made here.

God gives everyone the freedom to choose their beliefs and live their lives accordingly. Salvation is available for people of all religions.


The Second Coming has taken place—and in fact still is taking place. It is not an actual physical appearance of the Lord, but rather his return in spirit and truth that is being effected as a present reality. (I disagree Jesus second coming will be visible and in the form of a human being)

God is infinitely loving and at the center of every life (I disagree God is not the center of life of a mass murderer)

(My comments in brackets Alan McDougall)

https://www.gotquestions.org/Swedenborgianism.html

Swedenborgianism, and its churches by whatever name they might be called, are as far outside historical, biblical Christianity as a group can get. Although they might claim to base their teachings on the Bible, every teaching is tainted by heresy, confusion, and sometimes lunacy

Swedenborgianism bases its teachings on the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg, who was born in Stockholm, Sweden, in 1688. His training was in science, but sometime around 1750 he had a vision in which he believed God came to him and declared him to be God's personal messenger of new revelation. Further encounters with God and other beings in the spiritual realm he traveled to were the basis for his many writings.

These writings include teachings such as: God has many names, depending on the beliefs/religion of the individual; the Holy Spirit is not God; the Trinity does not exist; Jesus Christ's death did not atone for our sin; salvation comes by practicing what you believe, whatever religion it might be; the afterlife is spiritual, but dependent on how well you lived in your physical body.

None of these teachings are compatible with biblical Christianity. The God of the Bible is the only true God (Exodus 3:13-14; Isaiah 43:10). All other gods are idols; creations of man (Exodus 20:4-5). The Holy Spirit is definitely declared to be God in the Bible (Acts 5:3-4), as is Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14) and God the Father (Philippians 1:2); the Trinity is a valid, biblical reality. The Bible is also very clear on Jesus' vicarious atonement of our sin (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2), and that it is only through belief in Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection that salvation is possible (John 14:6; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The after-life will be experienced in one of two places—heaven or hell—and that in a physical body (Revelation 22).

Hi Roger,

Yes, it is interesting that one of Newton's clients described time as well as progression in a similar way to ES.  ES believed that the spiritual is the actual inner state of a person, along with the psychological aspects of a person, to be life itself or who we really are. 

Also along that line, ES indicated that fundamentally, a person's life in the spiritual is based on what he or she really is.  For example, in this world we are quite capable of deceiving ourselves and others, however in the spiritual world people are essentially sorted out according to what they really are and move toward the essential reality of their existence.  Who we really are is essentially the quality of our being.  The innermost heaven is the innermost quality of mind as he discusses the nature of Heaven.  He states: "Our being spirits inwardly has reference to our capacities for thinking and intending because these are our actual inner natures.  They are what make us human, and the quality of our humanity depends on their quality."  Heaven and Hell 444  When our intent, our motivations and actions stem from love the quality of our being progresses in positive ways.

I agree ES does deserve to be studied.  In my opinion he tried to meticulously describe what he experienced as honestly as possible.

K

Vincent,

Interesting that your post is relevant to the point I was trying to make and provides one more reason, and that is interpretation.  You apparently interpreted that I said the bible is "unreliable" meaning that it cannot be trusted, or at least that's what unreliable means according to Webster.  I did not say that.  I said it cannot be taken "line for line in a literal manner" meaning that by doing so there exists a risk of inaccuracy.  There's a big difference in implication between your interpretation of what I said and what I actually said.  Taking a single statement out of context can distort the original meaning.  With the bible one can make it say anything they want it to say by doing that.  Don, or any biblical scholar or theologian would likely say the same thing I said for all of the reasons I mentioned, and perhaps for even more reasons.  I didn't just make it up.  It's factual according to those that do the difficult work of translation.  This is true no matter what textual content is being translated, including ES, though his writings were translated from Latin, and only a couple hundred years ago, not thousands as in the original biblical texts, most of which are missing for the Old Testament.

Getting back to your topic:
Throughout ES's writings I've found that he continually deals with inner states of consciousness, which include both the emotional and intellect as companions, rather than opposites, and how these states only become true or real when they are experienced through actions that reflect them.  What he describes are the inner and outer states of the human being.  He believed the spiritual is the inner as well as the ultimate aspect of the psychological.  To enter the spiritual world, or to be in spirit, ES indicates that one needs to go inward to the roots of human experience because the innermost being is the spiritual realm.  He also felt that it is possible to enter the spiritual realm through inner exploration.  This inner psychological/spiritual to ES is life itself.

To even begin to understand the spiritual realms the first concept ES realized was that the whole feeling side of him had to be awakened and take a position that was superior to his intellect.  As a scientist he operated primarily on his intellect and initially thought his non-physical contacts were to help him in his scientific work.  Eventually he recognized that feeling becomes more rational when intellect becomes more capable of feeling.  This is where consciousness combines these seemingly opposites.  There's more, a whole story actually, of ES's initial journey into the spiritual realms that I won't go into.  Most of the accounts of his story can be found in the "Dream Diary" which covers his personal analysis fairly well.  Suffice it to say he was humbled realizing his own ignorance and unworthiness in relationship to the forces he encountered, and as his sense of this, along with a childlike understanding, deepened as he went further and further within.  It was this attitude that enabled him to move faster and farther in the non-physical realm.

Of course his own beliefs and understanding and that of his culture during that time period clearly comes through his writings.  I could outline some of those and the variances in translation, but I suspect you wouldn't be interested and I'd be wasting my time.   However, I will say that ES's theological writings are not all that apparent because he was continually speaking of the inner states of man, so if you are looking for comparisons between the writings of ES and Christianity you may miss a lot of the richness ES offers his readers.  Personally, I did not find them to be non-biblical taken as a whole.  If there is one main theme to his writings, it is that one's most inner love is the force that conditions all aspects of mind and actions, and thus determines one's state of consciousness for better or worse.

Hi Kathy-

You said "Also along that line, ES indicated that fundamentally, a person's life in the spiritual is based on what he or she really is." And "Throughout ES's writings I've found that he continually deals with inner states of consciousness, which include both the emotional and intellect as companions, rather than opposites, and how these states only become true or real when they are experienced through actions that reflect them".

The trouble I'm having, maybe based on a misunderstanding, is the correlation between the actions one does and his inner state. For example, the brutal actions of ISIS, forcing parents to watch as their children are beheaded and vice versa. Beheading young children and crucifying their bodies.

Or a serial killer who derives pleasure by administration of torture before killing.

Is it possible that people who commit these unspeakable acts have an inner state that corresponds to their actions, or could their actions be attributed to external influences (dictates of a "religion" or brain abnormalities) and thus their inner or spiritual states are pure.?

This is a real conundrum to me.

R
ps- if you or Matthew would like to correspond with Don, pm me.

Swedenborg is more famous for his "fabrications" that he is for his "imaginary" potentially truthful revelations.

rondele wrote on Apr 17^th, 2017 at 7:39pm:

Hi Kathy- You said "Also along that line, ES indicated that fundamentally, a person's life in the spiritual is based on what he or she really is." And "Throughout ES's writings I've found that he continually deals with inner states of consciousness, which include both the emotional and intellect as companions, rather than opposites, and how these states only become true or real when they are experienced through actions that reflect them". The trouble I'm having, maybe based on a misunderstanding, is the correlation between the actions one does and his inner state. For example, the brutal actions of ISIS, forcing parents to watch as their children are beheaded and vice versa. Beheading young children and crucifying their bodies. Or a serial killer who derives pleasure by administration of torture before killing. Is it possible that people who commit these unspeakable acts have an inner state that corresponds to their actions, or could their actions be attributed to external influences (dictates of a "religion" or brain abnormalities) and thus their inner or spiritual states are pure.? This is a real conundrum to me. R ps- if you or Matthew would like to correspond with Don, pm me.

Some people are intrinsically evil and do not need an outside influence to become evil.

Lights of Love wrote on Apr 17^th, 2017 at 3:06pm:

Hi Roger, Yes, it is interesting that one of Newton's clients described time as well as progression in a similar way to ES.  ES believed that the spiritual is the actual inner state of a person, along with the psychological aspects of a person, to be life itself or who we really are.  Also along that line, ES indicated that fundamentally, a person's life in the spiritual is based on what he or she really is.  For example, in this world we are quite capable of deceiving ourselves and others, however in the spiritual world people are essentially sorted out according to what they really are and move toward the essential reality of their existence.  Who we really are is essentially the quality of our being.  The innermost heaven is the innermost quality of mind as he discusses the nature of Heaven.  He states: "Our being spirits inwardly has reference to our capacities for thinking and intending because these are our actual inner natures.  They are what make us human, and the quality of our humanity depends on their quality."  Heaven and Hell 444  When our intent, our motivations and actions stem from love the quality of our being progresses in positive ways. I agree ES does deserve to be studied.  In my opinion he tried to meticulously describe what he experienced as honestly as possible. K

Why study the life and works of a pathological liar, beats me? You cannot drink from a glass of the purest water, that has one time drop of cyanide in it, much less than from a glass of water that is half filled up to the brim of the purest deadly cyanide poison.

His "stupid stories" would not make it only the pages of the most nonsensical pulp magazine of outrageous science fiction, rubbish of our contemporary age.

That is my opinion about this person.

Nonsense is nonsense no matter who states it, nonsense remains nonsense.

If Albert Einstein had said on the blazing hot planet Mercury there were little gnome like beings controlling the universe, he might have been locked up into an institution for the crazy by the big men in white clothing.

I do not doubt that ES was smart and yes smart enough to think about such outlandish foolish nonsensical rubbish way back then.

I will now finally leave the thread in its desperate effort of making sense out of nonsense?

  Alan, did you read my outline about how Swedenborg might have been perceiving other dimensions that the physical Earth dimension (the 3rd) is connected to, and connected these other dimensions with the physical planets? 

  He is not the first source to talk about such connections. Many centuries before him, Plato talked about similar theories. Plato was another brilliant mind.

Then after Swedenborg, both Rudolph Steiner and Edgar Cayce also talked about similar connections. Steiner said some questionable things here and there, but it's clear he had some real abilities. 

Think about it this way--everything natural that we perceive in the physical, has it's nonphysical/consciousness counterpart in other dimensions. For humans, we have our Souls.  For trees, plants, etc there are the fairies, gnomes, and woodchuck Souls that imbue these living things.  Well, Planets might seem dead to us on the physical level, but they have their own "Soul" to in a sense. 

  Each Planet in our Solar system, is like a specific major dimension in a system that the physical Earth is only one level of.  Edgar Cayce's guidance said that in our system, there are 8 dimensions, with the 8th being a doorway/gateway into other, more expanded systems (the Star Arcturus).  Hence, in a sense, there are 7 main dimensions directly connect to our system. 

   It's very possible that Swedenborg was perceiving these truths of other dimensions with a connection to our physical planets, but overly materializing them.  The point is, there is a "afterlife" dimensional equivalent of "Mercury" where a collection of Souls are focused in, and that dimension has certain traits, properties, attributes.  Mercury for this instance is the dimension of the mind and of information. Its connected to the "all or no time" that people connected to Bob Monroe and his Institute call "Focus 15".  Here, you can view anything that has every happened in human history, as well as probable futures.  Among other things. 

   Swedenborg wasn't so much outright lying, as somewhat misinterpreting and garbling a bit.  He was a pioneer at a time when there was very, very, very little direct knowledge about the nonphysical.  He was one of the original "Bob Monroe's", well before Bob Monroe, but more attached to religion than was Bob.

  Among other things, I started looking into and researching astrology at age 13, and now I'm almost 40.  I can definitely say there is something to astrology over the many years of my experience/research/practice. For some years, I did free charts for people, and most of the time, people were amazed by the insights into their character and life.  The reason why, is because we live in a reality of fundamental Oneness, where one level can reflect or mirror another level.

Particularly with the physical Planets, they directly represent these other afterlife dimensions that we move and phase through as we spiritually grow in or degrade through our physical lives as we use our Creator given Will.  I've come to view astrology NOT as a CAUSE, but an effect--more specifically a symbolic consciousness language of effects and indications.  Sort of like hands on a giant cosmic clock.  Neither the physical Planets nor the "signs" directly cause anything, but as the Bible states, "The Sun, Moon, and Stars were given [by the Creator] as SIGNS".

  The consistently friendly, kind, more regularly loving of us, phase to the 4 dimension after their physical body dies, which is represented by Venus primarily. But, the interesting thing is, each of the 7 major dimensions, also each have 7 sub dimensions within them.  These all have their symbolic correspondence to a different Planet in our Solar system. 

  If a person wants to know what dimension they came into the Earth from--it's easy to find out--most often, it's either the Planet in their astrological chart, which is closest to their what astrologers call the Ascendant or Rising degree, or to the Mid Heaven degree, or otherwise the most strong and highlighted Planet.  The great thing though, is that we have freewill and can grow beyond that.  We may have come here from the dimension that say Venus symbolizes, BUT, if we live our life right and make positive choices in a consistent sense, when we leave the Earth, we may phase into the dimension that say Jupiter or the Sun represents (both of these are much more expanded and more Universally Love attuned than the dimension that Venus represents). 

  Note that even Paul in the NT talked about the different levels of heaven.  He stated that he had an OBE type experience and was brought to the 3rd heaven (I suspect that he was experiencing the 3rd sub dimension of the 4th dimension).  These ARE the different nonphysical dimensions, and the physical Earth is very much part of and connected to this whole system.

   I realize this is kind of a different and odd way for most to look at our reality, but astrology is as old as humans, and many, many, many different cultures had their version of same.  The Bible actually supports proper astrological use, but at the same time denounces improper astrological use. Such an improper astrological use, would be to try to predict someone's future based on astrology.  One runs into a lot of potential problems and issues with such a use, and often people will be inaccurate.  It's not good form, and potentially harmful, to give people inaccurate information which can overly affect their lives in a negative way.  This is why the Bible was/is against the "divination" aspect of astrology.  Yet, the 3 Wise men that came to visit and give gifts to the baby Yeshua, were most definitely astrologers and philosophers from places like Persia where these beliefs were central to their overall philosophy ("We saw his Star").  Then there are the the different quotes about the different Stars, or that the Sun, Moon, and Stars were given by the Creator as signs in the Bible. 

  The problem that astrology and astrologers run into, is that people have freewill.  A person's chart might outline their strongest tendencies and character traits, but people can and do change by using their Creator given will.  Edgar Cayce's guidance talked a fair amount about and supported astrology, BUT they ever, ever cautioned that the will of humans was the most important aspect, and could override any astrological indications of tendency. 

   A much more accurate and up to date way to read people and their Souls, is that of Aura. Unlike an astrological chart, which a fixed snap shot in space/time of their Soul in a symbolic form, the Aura of a person changes constantly according to how a person uses or abuses their Will. The frequency of the colors indicate either growth or stagnation.  The closer to the violet, golden, and especially the White Light a person's aura becomes, the more they are growing.  The closer to the red and severe lack of Light (perceived as black or darkness), the more they are retarding spiritually. 

  Most of us though, are a curious admixture of both slow, mid, and high vibratory influences/traits, and our aura's show this correspondingly with various different colors and tones. There are very, very, very few people walking around with completely pure, brilliant, White Light auras in a consistent sense.  Such a person, would be like Yeshua, completely a pure channel of what Bruce calls PUL (Pure, Unconditional Love). 

   

  I should add as far as auras go, some of us do occasionally attune to and radiate the Golden and White Light, but it's usually temporary, and if we are meditating, praying, doing service work, a moment of unusual selfless kindness to another, in a spiritually focused group, laughing our butts off in a healthy, non mean to others way, etc

  I've yet to meet a person in this particular life, that only ever has a pure, radiant, brilliant, White Light aura all the time. Yet, that pure, constant attunement to the consciousness of PUL, which the pure White Light symbolizes/reflects, is the goal of most of our Souls, whether unconsciously or consciously.  Most of us come here to this difficult dimension (physical Earth) to try to grow more towards that. 

While human Robert Monroe made contact with his spirit friends, Bruce Moen did so, I have done so, and so have others. I understand being careful and using discrimination, but is it really wrong for people to make contact with spirit friends--beings they knew before then incarnated in this world?

Albert, it would only be wrong and possibly dangerous if the friend is not who you think it is. Personally I would err on the side of caution.

R

I'm curious. How do you know anyone is who they are?

rondele wrote on Apr 17^th, 2017 at 7:39pm:

Hi Kathy- You said "Also along that line, ES indicated that fundamentally, a person's life in the spiritual is based on what he or she really is." And "Throughout ES's writings I've found that he continually deals with inner states of consciousness, which include both the emotional and intellect as companions, rather than opposites, and how these states only become true or real when they are experienced through actions that reflect them". The trouble I'm having, maybe based on a misunderstanding, is the correlation between the actions one does and his inner state. For example, the brutal actions of ISIS, forcing parents to watch as their children are beheaded and vice versa. Beheading young children and crucifying their bodies. Or a serial killer who derives pleasure by administration of torture before killing. Is it possible that people who commit these unspeakable acts have an inner state that corresponds to their actions, or could their actions be attributed to external influences (dictates of a "religion" or brain abnormalities) and thus their inner or spiritual states are pure.? This is a real conundrum to me. R ps- if you or Matthew would like to correspond with Don, pm me.

Kathy, I forgot to ask you if ES ever indicated directly or indirectly a belief in reincarnation based on his explorations.

R

rondele wrote on Apr 18^th, 2017 at 8:05pm:

Albert, it would only be wrong and possibly dangerous if the friend is not who you think it is. Personally I would err on the side of caution. R

Recently I said this to Goldyflocks, "Also, when you open up self in meditation, it's important to pray/set an intention to only open up yourself to and communicate and commune with helpful, loving, constructive sources that have your best interests in mind."

  Such prayers are powerful. Reality works on two main principles, Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like, and the Biblical injunction of "ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened etc"

   When we just meditate or make the intention of communicating with "guidance" in an open ended way, most often, what we attract to us as far as "guidance" or in general, works on a Like attracts and begets Like basis.  That's great if you're really attuned to Love, very positive, and very balanced. 

  Since most of us don't fall under that and rarely all the time, we need to use the Biblically talked about method of specific asking for. 

  If you specifically pray/intend/ask to communicate and commune with only the most helpful, loving, aware, creative-constructive sources and those these may send, then you cover your bases.  It helps to set up a powerful, automatic shielding from potentially hindering sources. Especially if you ask the above with help in that.

Having faith in this process, and knowing your prayers will be answered, is also an important part of the process as well.   

Most of the outer sources that I've come across that have struck me as rather off in some ways, didn't go into communication with "guidance" in similar kind of way.  For example, one approached it via Ouija board. The person who did so, was a sensationalist, whom just wanted contact and experience with something unusual and non material. Also was overly attached to fame/notoriety. All the above conspired to attract a clever, but deceptive and hindering source. 

  Otherwise, if one is taking the necessary, pragmatic precautions as talked about above, no need for fear.  And this coming from someone who use to meditate and open self up in an unwise manner and had major difficulties partially from it (strong, constant, and hard to shake suicidal thoughts and feelings).  Lo and behold, when I asked the most expanded, loving, helpful, etc sources for protection and help, it was like a major weight was lifted. 

  Instead of advocating fear and caution, why not instead stress proper and helpful methods?  You seem to be open minded to the Bible at the least, well some of the above is Biblically based.  You seem to respect Albert.  Do you think Albert is in touch with negative/hindering nonphysicals and/or can't tell the difference between Love based individuals and those that seek to bring us down?  Part of what helps Albert besides being who and how he is, is that often he seeks specifically/consciously to communicate with God, Christ, his higher self, and individuals one with these. 

  That is similar to what I advocate when praying/intending to communicate and commune with only the most loving, helpful, spiritual, expanded, etc sources. 

I believe that in the afterlife it is strictly "birds of a feather flock together"

The means of communication in the afterlife is mind to mind in pictures, or in words also by means of telepathy.

Imagine having the filthy hideous minds of the most depraved filling your minds with its unimaginable horror.

Thus our afterlife companions are/will be people just like or very close to us. with the filth of the depraved filtered out by some method instituted by God to avoid pollution between souls.

That is my two-cent peace/ 

Hi Roger,

That's a really good question.  I don't know as though there is a simple answer, especially from our human perspective.   

I think it is the intent or motivation beneath the action that counts in whether or not our consciousness evolves in beneficial ways.  Universal intent or purpose has no adversary, meaning that the creative principal in the universe evolves and functions unhindered towards what I'll call love.  That is its intent, function and purpose and nothing can be in opposition.  This is what I believe to be pure potential that exists beneath a system of consciousness of which we as an individualized consciousness are a part of.  We are like worker bees helping this system to evolve.  We do this by evolving our own consciousness, which in turns helps the greater system to further evolve toward love.  Since the ELS has been around for quite awhile, what we do here (learning by experiencing separation and duality) must be working otherwise it would be in opposition to universal intent and would die out, or be eliminated one way or another. 

We can recognize changes in our state of consciousness easier when we are "in" a physical body because of the body's natural reactionary feedback mechanisms that produce hormones that we experience as pain or pleasure, which is probably one of the main reasons we are here in the ELS.  Not always, but sometimes this can be confusing to us because even when our intent or motivation is harmful and the resulting action taken causes harm to another person, pleasure can be felt.  The reason is because it is the movement of energy through the body that feels good.  This is true for both positive and negative emotions.  It is the expression of them that can produce pleasure.

Another example is the words we speak and how we say them.  A set of words has a normally accepted meaning, but the way in which we convey them can change their meaning considerably depending on the energy of our feelings.  How we deliver those words conveys exactly what we intend.  For example, one can say "I love you" with love, or with repugnance, or with pleading, or with a false tone that actually means "I hate you."  We can have any number of different intentions beneath the words we speak as well as the actions we take. 

Some of our higher wants and desires come from good intent, but may also serve the purpose of assuaging fear.  When our intent is also to assuage fear we have cross-purposes that interfere with our creativity and we find it difficult to create what we want.  However, when what we truly want is aligned with universal purpose, no adversary exists and the creative principal in the universe can function unhindered and I think this may have been what ES was getting at when he said, " these states only become true or real when they are experienced through actions that reflect them" or in other words whenever we have good/loving intent, and it is experienced by taking appropriate action that reflects that intent, do we align with universal intent/purpose of evolving towards love, does the quality of our consciousness evolve.  Clearly it is a slow process, but apparently incarnating as a human speeds things along in ways that are beneficial.

It makes sense to me that everyone at the very core of their being is pure potential, or God stuff, a mystical essence or substance where there's an underlying intent to evolve according to universal purpose.  Our core consists of more intrinsic qualities of course, but this is getting long.  As that potential, the beginning state of a soul, interacts within various systems, realities, etc., it's state changes to where it becomes individualized consciousness according to its experiences and the entity learns, progresses, evolves. 

I'm not aware of ES discussing reincarnation, but that doesn't mean he didn't.  I know there's been a lot of discussion both for and against on this board.  Personally, it's never been a big issue for me.  I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible.

K

Quote:

I believe that in the afterlife it is strictly "birds of a feather flock together"

  Yes, mostly agree on that. Much of it is about natural Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like. 

  But picture the Earth-Solar Consciousness system of interconnected dimensions like a color wheel of sorts. Each specific color is like a specific, major dimension.  Yet, the colors all blend into one another and are part of a Whole system.  And what makes the difference between red and yellow perception wise? 

The rate of vibration. The 7 main dimensions of the Earth-Solar Consciousness system are much like this as well.  The lower, hellish areas of the Afterlife are like the red part of the color wheel spectrum, and the expanded dimensions where you find the helpers/guides/retriever types are like the blue and faster vibratory colors beyond blue, part of the color wheel spectrum. 

  It is indeed a very apt analogy because there are actual consciousness correspondences between these different consciousnesses/dimensional states and the physical colors we perceive. 

  And each one of these major dimensions/consciousness states that Souls get attracted to post Earth life, also have a correspondence not only with a specific color range, but also with a specific Planet.

  If for example, you ever meet a person that consistently radiates a lot of Golden Light frequency in their aura, then chances are, they came into the physical 3rd Earth dimension from the nonphysical dimension that corresponds to the Sun aka the most expanded, fastest vibratory dimension connected to this particular consciousness system that the physical earth is the hub of. 

  Chances are also that this individual has the symbol of the Sun also very strong in their astrological chart.  A real life example of this is the Dali Lama.  The Dali Lama radiates a lot of Golden, and golden yellow frequencies in his aura.   Interestingly, in his astrological chart, he also has the Sun very strong--it's his single most highlighted symbol. Another real life example is a friend of mine here.

    It's well to remember that as wise as we become, or think we are, there are always more expanded views to be had.  I've been studying and researching all these interrelating correspondences for some two decades now.

  I'm not basing this on idle beliefs and cavalier hypotheses.  Swedenborg was picking up on some of these truths, but again, overlaying too much physical metaphor onto them.  For example, "Jupitarians" aka Souls focused in a certain, expanded nonphysical dimension (of which we can connect the color of purple/violet to) don't literally stoop over or ride small but powerful horses.  That's call interpreter interference and material mind overlay. 

  Jupiterian Souls are in actuality long time, more advanced helper/retreiver types. They've been around the block, and are getting close to graduation out of this system.  Their next stop is the Solar dimension and then out of this system to phase to more expanded systems.  When Souls from this dimension incarnate into the Earth, often they have purple or violet colors strong and primary in their aura. Other things also commonly go along with such Souls, such as an unusual degree of sincerity and honesty, a innate broad mindedness and tolerance, a sense of inner power, often a lot of vitality, often deal with groups, even large groups or amounts of people, often very service oriented, often have strong spiritual and/or philosophical leanings, often psychic beyond the norm, etc. 

   And if they come into the Earth direct from this dimension, then the Planet Jupiter as a symbol, will be the strongest/most highlighted in their astrological chart. 

  Again, I know very few people and sources talk about these things and it seems quite foreign to people's thinking, but if you're curious about whether or not these interconnections are true, then one can pray and meditate about it. 

  For a real life example of a human whose Soul came here from the dimension that Jupiter corresponds to, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is one such "Jupitarian".  In his chart, Jupiter is the planet closest to his Ascendant/Rising degree. He indeed led a very combo Jupitarian, Venusian, Capricorn, Taurean, and Piscean lifetime (his strongest symbols).

    I think he probably phased into the Solar and/or Arcturian dimensions after he left here. Perhaps he is one of those whom had already left this system for more expanded ones and then came back for service reasons. 

  I haven't looked at the special kind of Star charts that would show that, via mainly Arcturus's condition/position in his chart.

   This knowledge is actually very ancient knowledge.  The earlier Egyptians knew of these Planet and Stellar to dimensional connections. It was a central part of their belief systems, which later got corrupted. According to Cayce's guidance, a past life influence of his in Egypt, Ra Ta, intuitively figured out all the holistic connections between these different levels and came up with a coherent system, which later became central to the Egyptian religious/spiritual beliefs. .

  I should add that the Sun was very strong in Dr. King's chart as well.  Perhaps even stronger than Jupiter, so he actually may have phased into this dimension from the nonphysical dimension that the Sun represents. 

The Sun is very close to his MC (also referred to as the Mid-Heaven, which in most systems is also the start of the 10th House).  His Sun is also in the active, Cardinal Sign of Capricorn which lends it some strength as well, since there is a loose connection between the archetypes of the Angular Houses (most sensitive areas of a chart) and the concept of Cardinal Signs. 

   In astrology the Ascendant degree, and the MC degree are usually the two most sensitive areas of a chart, and any Planets near these areas, especially if "conjunct" (within a certain distance degree wise), are often quite prominent and highlighted.  It's interesting that Dr. King had the two fastest vibratory/most expanded symbols and Planets strongest in his chart. 

  While he had his lacks and things to work on, he was a true (and rarely so) Christian in many deep respects.  Certainly his Soul was unusually fast vibratory/expanded, just as a deeper look into his astrological chart and it's connection to the nonphysical dimensions, indicates plainly. 

wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 12:09am:

For a real life example of a human whose Soul came here from the dimension that Jupiter corresponds to, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is one such "Jupitarian".  In his chart, Jupiter is the planet closest to his Ascendant/Rising degree. He indeed led a very combo Jupitarian, Venusian, Capricorn, Taurean, and Piscean lifetime (his strongest symbols).   I think he probably phased into the Solar and/or Arcturian dimensions after he left here. Perhaps he is one of those whom had already left this system for more expanded ones and then came back for service reasons.    I haven't looked at the special kind of Star charts that would show that, via mainly Arcturus's condition/position in his chart.    This knowledge is actually very ancient knowledge.  The earlier Egyptians knew of these Planet and Stellar to dimensional connections. It was a central part of their belief systems, which later got corrupted. According to Cayce's guidance, a past life influence of his in Egypt, Ra Ta, intuitively figured out all the holistic connections between these different levels and came up with a coherent system, which later became central to the Egyptian religious/spiritual beliefs. .

WOO-WOO-WOO NONSENSE GET REAL

   Alan, would you care to elaborate about exactly is woo woo nonsense in what I said?  I don't mean that Dr. King's Soul literally came from the physical planet Jupiter to the physical Earth.  Rather that the Afterlife set of nonphysical dimensions that the Earth is connected to--one of these dimensions--one of the more expanded, service, and love oriented ones, has a correspondence to Jupiter in a symbolic manner. 

   Or in another sense, each of the Planets that we physically perceive in our Solar system has an inner, nonphysical consciousness counterpart, or "Soul" if you will (different than our Souls), and the Earth connected afterlife system of nonphysical dimensions is directly related to the nonphysical, consciousness counterparts of the Planets in our little system.

   I'm just trying to put Swedenborg's explorations/info into a more accurate and helpful framework.

  I first came upon this idea in the Edgar Cayce readings.  I've looked at a lot of different outer sources over the years.  I haven't found any other source like the Cayce readings with the amount of verification, the depth, broadness, and sheer vastness of info. Some say Monroe's explorer tapes rival some of those aspects of the Cayce readings, but there is only a fraction of these that's available to the public.

  Cayce's work is in a league of it's own. Because of how much verification is found in this work, chances are, there is something to what they are talking about.  That's just speaking in a general, impersonal sense and not including the two decades of my personal research into the interconnections between astrology, the afterlife, the colors (particularly in relation to auras), the endocrine glands, and consciousness growth or retrogression.

   After doing X amount of astrological charts for people, and correctly "guessing" the majority of people's favorite colors based primarily on their charts--especially their strongest planetary symbols, you kind of start to build trust in the reality of these connections.  How and why could I guess people's favorite colors?  Because not only does Like attract, beget, and resonate with Like, but also Like tends to like Like on the deeper levels.  In other words, a person's primary aura colors tends to be also their favorite colors too. 

  If for example, blue is the most consistently primary color in your aura, on the more slowly changing "mental" level of same, then chances are very high that you are going to like blue a lot. We do have freewill to change and some of us exercise that will and do change some though. Or in other words, a person such as myself using this method could never have 100% accuracy rate because of freewill.   

  Perhaps it's not woo woo nonsense, but just something that you don't yet perceive or understand? 

Also, while I don't mind people disagreeing with or debating what I say, perceive, and believe--on a personal note, there are more intelligent and kinder ways of doing that.  To say in all caps what you said, was neither intelligent (didn't address any logic or lack of logic), nor kind in any sense.

Dude said: "Regarding the Bible, many doubts regarding its legitimacy seem to come from the false assumption that the Heavenly Father doesn't have the power to create a body of text that is in accord with his will and that He is unable or unwilling to exert influence in the minds and hearts of man."

Recoverer responds: "It is the above way of thinking that causes many people to be turned off by literal Christianity. They understand that God provided us with intelligence so that we could use it. If one reads the Bible with true discernment, one will see that it includes imperfections and inconsistencies that come from "men" not God.

Consider this, earlier on this thread Dude wrote that Jesus is God. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke don't say this. The Gospel of John says so a few times, but many times within it Jesus speaks as if God is someone other than himself.

I doubt this inconsistency comes from God because one way or the other, he knows the truth. I figure the inconsistencies come from men.

I wonder how many people decided to believe that Jesus is God not because they actually knew this, but for reasons such as: "Somebody told them they better accept this viewpoint or they will go to hell for all of eternity." Whether or not this viewpoint is true, I figure God and Jesus or God/Jesus, is/are able to understand when this viewpoint is or isn't accepted because a person actually knows which viewpoint is true; or because a person is afraid of the consequences if he (or she) doesn't accept it. I doubt that God and Jesus or God/Jesus, is/are ANGRY with people who don't view Jesus as God because they considered all of the parts of the Bible where Jesus spoke as if God is someone other than himself.

The more we connect to God within our heart, the more we'll understand that God doesn't mind when we question everything, including the Bible.

I once had this dream. Take it as you well. I was in a meeting room with about 20-30 people. We were trying to determine how to make this world a better place. I said "Perhaps we should invite some fundamentalist Christian leaders to this meeting." An annoyed Jesus said, "Impossible!"  With the meaning that fundamentalist Christians aren't going to help out.

I find it troubling when people view Jesus as a dictator like being who desires to be worshiped. I figure he is way too wise and loving to think in such terms. It seems to me that Doc is on track with he spoke on how to consider Jesus' teachings as found in the gospels.

It is important to remember than even while incarnated in bodies, we are spirit beings, not body-based people. If a person can be fooled while in the body, why not afterwards after he or she dies? Eventually a person will have to use his or her discrimination.

Below is what Doc said:

"The thing that concerns me about this thread is that some Christians see themselves as separate from the divine.  For that reason, they need scripture to tell them what is divine - but in doing so, they separate themselves even more from the divine.  Jesus told his disciples that they can do what he did, and that following his path (of love) they can become what he became (one with the Father, love and heaven).  The idea then that one should feel unworthy of this is sad to me.  The notion of man being born in sin, and hellfire without following dictates written in the Bible is a fear based approach to God's love.  It doesn't work.  Well it works, but for the wrong reasons.

If a person follows the laws not because he incorporates the spirit of the gospels into his heart, but because he feels he is a damned sinner and has no other hope of redemption, then he/she is acting in the right way for the wrong reasons.

I would rather find the insight of the gospels that love is our nature.  That we are all one, and that God's love is our foundation.  That we are not sinners, but but part of a greater whole of consciousness.  In doing so, i feel that I will follow right action from my heart, not out of fear."

  Regarding the NT and John more specifically--translation issues might be why there are some common misunderstandings. 

There is no literal word "God" in either the OT or the NT, but there are various different names and titles for the Creator.  Interestingly, some of the older Hebrew words for same, are innately plural--such as Elohim (translates as "Mighty Ones" among other things). 

  See the following link to all the various different names and titles that over simplistically get translated only to God singular in most English translations:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-definition-god-titles.htm

  When I read John, I get the sense that John or whomever penned same, was talking about how Yeshua's Spirit was a Co-Creator with The original Creator in the very beginning, before this Universe was created.

    I think this is true for various reasons, both inner and outer sources and reasons.  Which is why Yeshua himself, almost always made a distinction between himself and the Abba ("Father" aka the active, masculine side of the Creator).  The closest he ever comes to idenitfying himself with The God, is when he talks about his disciples having seen him and his works, they were seeing the Creator.  But, that could be understood in a more metaphysical and metaphorical sense of Yeshua was so attuned to the Creative Force within, that he was like the expression of the personality of God within the material world.  Something very hard to achieve, and humans have had a hard time achieving historically except for a few cycles here and there over many hundreds of thousands of years.   

   I think Yeshua indicated pretty plainly that all Souls, all children of God have this same potential.  In a debate with the Pharisees, he uses their own scripture against them when they accuse him of blasphemy for associating himself with God overmuch.  John 10:34 says, "Yeshua said to them, 'Is it not written in your law, 'I have said, “You are gods”'?”

  He also says that if we live and choose like him, we can become like him and do similar works and even greater. 

    We are not currently active, true Co-Creators and full companions with Source because we have put barriers (mainly selfishness, fear, and distorted beliefs) between ourselves and our Source.  Choosing and attuning to Love, breaks down those barriers, and this is exactly the entire message of Yeshua's life, example, teachings, death and resurrection.  That pure Love is the way back to Source. 

  People can say all day, "but we never left", which is a nice sounding and technically true platitude, but until they are like Yeshua and over come death, over come physics, over come aging, live completely selflessly for others and the Whole, radiate only the White Light, etc then it remains naught but an over simplified, lop sided/imbalanced platitude that certainly strokes the ego part of us, but in and of itself doesn't get us very far without the all important livingness part of it. 

  We have the extremes in the earth.  On one hand, you have many fundamentalist Christians that overly put Yeshua on an unreachable pedestal and make him too special and untouchable.  Then at the other end of the extreme, you have more New Agey folks that are too cavalier about how we never left, and make it all sound so easy and automatic when not a single one of them is at Yeshua's state of consciousness of being a full, fully conscious Co-Creator and companion with Source. 

  Somewhere near the middle of the extremes, somewhere in the blend of opposites, is that elusive thing called truth.   

   

 

If God told man not to seek out communication with spirits because of the high risk of being deceived and harmed by demonic entities, do you think his "angels" (as Swedenborg uses the term for human spirits in heaven) would engage in this communication that was initiated in violation of God's law? I think not, especially if Swedenborg is correct in his description of the nature of "angels," but also simply because any spirit in communion with God will necessarily act in accord with his will. Something to think about when considering the nature of Swedenborg's conversations with spirits.

Regarding previous comments regarding the Bible, I once had similar reservations about the validity of the Word. I found that this was due to a strong ego, preconceived bias, and a lack of honest research, study and understanding. Once I took a more open minded and honest approach, I found that I had been very wrong. So just realize that I once entertained the exact objections and arguments that are being shared here, and being that everything in myself and my life is pointing to the fact that I am evolving, growing and improving, in many ways which would take too long to describe, I think its safe to rule out the idea that this is a devolution from my previous mindset. Although I recommend everyone contemplate the title of the thread and at least try to keep the conversation relevant to the purpose.

Also, when someone who claims to be in contact with spirits in some way is saying things that deceptive channeled spirits (demons) have been saying for over a century, the source and validity of the information shared becomes clear.

Dude:

I do not believe that God would want Demons to predicate what we do or do not do.  I believe God is wise enough to understand that if we use our discrimination and have good intentions,  we can communicate with spirits without being fooled. It is important to remember that unfriendly spirits can try to mess with us even when we don't seek to communicate with spirits; therefore, discrimination and the wise utilization of our free will is always required.

Just as I won't allow words that supposedly come from Moses lead me to doing animal sacrifices, I won't let such words determine whether or not I communicate with spirits.

It seems as if you glossed over what I said about the Bible being inconsistent about who Jesus is.

Everything that exists does so within God's being. Therefore, if we want to open ourselves up to his love and presence as much as we can, we need to be willing to become aware of everything that exists within it, including the negative manifestations. I say this with the understanding that since God is the source of everything (there is no other source), even negativity comes from his being. (After some of his creations use their small portion to creative in a negative way.)

This morning as I meditated and experienced divine love and peace,  some negativity was presented to me. It didn't matter, because I was too in touch with the love and peace that comes from God to be troubled by such negativity. One of the reasons I am able to have such an experience, is because rather than avoid demons and other forms of negativity, I found a way to be transcendent. This ability exists within all of us. I do not believe Jesus would be opposed to us finding it. If faith can move mountains, will then perhaps our faith in God's grace and our own divinity can make it so we aren't misled by demons and such as long as we use our freewill wisely.

I would not trouble myself with saying the above at a fundamentalist Christian forum, because I figure the way of thinking of such forum members would be too circular and limited to consider what I say.  Anything I said that didn't go along with "their" rigid interpretation of the Bible would be considered demonic.

One of the consistent, many year long messages of Albert and I here has been that when contacting and communicating with the nonphysical, or coming upon sources that claim same, it’s important and necessary that a person uses their deeper discrimination and discernment, which is a combo of intuition, holistic logic, and wisdom from experience. This is because, as we have found out, there are indeed deceptive and hindering beings out there.  We have consistently over many years, despite much social pushback here, called out sources which either distort or malign Yeshua’s life or message.

   As far as interest in and openness to the Bible, speaking for self, this self first became interested in and curious about Yeshua in a non religious, non dogmatic way in the early teens due solely to inner intuition, then not long after started researching Christianity and reading the Bible with an open, but discerning mind.  I will fully admit that all in all, I have and do prefer the NT, because I’ve found in the Teacher Yeshua a fulfillment of all the wisdom of the OT, and as Yeshua stressed time and time again, if you live the greatest commandments to love the Creator with all your heart, and love others as yourself, then will all wisdom be given to you. He stressed, time and time again, this “greatest” commandment in combination with going within one’s own closet to pray and listen to the Creator within.  These are not just words or intellectual concepts to me, they are precepts and ideals that I have tried to live for many years. These are living truths to this self.

Over the years, both Albert and I have both had a number of message having to do with Yeshua, and experiences involving Yeshua. Neither of us have spoken about all of them here though. 

   Despite all this, both of the above people, including others, have debated with you some recently.  Some of these others also have more than passing familiarity with and openness to the Bible as well--people like Kathy and Matthew.  Kathy is someone who has studied the Bible, and Matthew is Jewish, and whom long has been open to the life, example, and messages of Yeshua.  All of us, have had this openness and interest, long before yourself.   

    Your views and perspectives have seem to become a little over black and white.  I say “become”, but it’s less that, and more you’ve just switched beliefs, but your approach is still a little over fixed and a little black and white.  Years ago, you questioned in a critical way, some of Albert’s and my beliefs and perceptions, because we didn’t just accept any old source coming out of the New Age scene. We openly questioned various sources from Seth, ACIM, Robert Bruce, etc and you at times hopped on the social bandwagon of “calling us out” for same.  Can you begin to see the irony in all of this?  And yet, both of these people and others are trying to caution you that you are going too far with your current approach. 

    Are you aware Vincent that for awhile now, and currently, the slow moving Planet Uranus (currently in Aries), that which Cayce’s guidance called the Planet of the extremes and of the psychic, has been squaring (at a 90* angle to) your natal Sun position, which is towards the end of Capricorn, near the beginning of Aquarius?   Squares indicate difficult, tense, stressful, and/or challenging connections and cycles.  The Sun is a sensitive point in most people’s chart (and represents our inner character composite), and Uranus square same indicates those Uranian tendencies to extremes are becoming highlighted in your psyche in a difficult, challenging way during this cycle.  And Uranus is already a somewhat difficult energy/consciousness without the square also being a factor.

  I bring this up not as judgement in the spirit of condemnation, but in the hopes of sparking some self awareness and reflection on your part. Right now, you are rather attuned to the consciousness that Uranus represents--particularly to it’s more fixed and extremist side.  I will put some quotes about Uranus from Cayce’s work on the thread that I started.

    Before I leave, I will ask, what did Yeshua say about exploring or communicating with the nonphysical?   Did he constantly speak about how we shouldn’t communicate with any “spirits”?  If not, then why not?  Wasn’t he far more consciously One with the Creator than any of the OT authors? Wasn’t he the Adon in the flesh?  See, you’re building up a belief system, based on others interpretations and distortions.  A more balanced, even approach would be more helpful both to self and to others. 

An addition to my last post, if a person with good intentions prays to God and Jesus and receives a response, such a person shouldn't have a knee jerk reaction and assume that a demon responded. It would be better if he (or she) used his discrimination and tried to find out if God or Jesus responded to his prayer with a message.

What a shame it would be if God, Jesus and other beings of love and light weren't allowed to communicate with us, because Satan and his demons make it so "NO PERSON WHAT SO EVER" is allowed to communicate with any spirit being at all.

What if a person was having difficulty discriminating whether or not ACIM is a valid source of information? I had     some trouble doing so, on more than one occasion I prayed to God and Christ and asked them if ACIM comes from Jesus, and on each occasion was in some way told "No." Afterwards, after obtaining some freedom of mind, I discriminated ACIM with a clearer eye, and saw how it is misleading in more than one way.

Regarding OBEs, all of my OBEs and lucid dreams have served a positive purpose.

The following links should clear up some misunderstandings that have been expressed in recent posts. All of these links give direct references to scripture, which illustrate the various misconceptions stated in this thread and correct them according to the actual Word of God. It's good to know what is actually written before making arguments based on same.

On Jesus being God and consistency issues:

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/is-jesus-god/

https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

About communication with God:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-communication.html

About communication with spirits:

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/what-wrong-ouija-boards-or-contacting-spirits

Regarding the credibility of scripture according to Jesus:

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/on-the-infallibility-of-scripture/

Regarding literal interpretation of God's Word:

http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_BibleTrue.htm

Regarding animal sacrifices:

https://www.gotquestions.org/animal-sacrifices.html

If believing that the Bible is the Word of God is an extreme or fundamentalist position, then I guess I am an extreme fundamentalist, although with all things considered, it is a far more logical position than being a Cafeteria Christian. But I feel that some here have a distorted view of what I actually believe.

Oh my, I opened the link as to why animal sacrifices are done, and stopped opening links after that.

Dude, sorry, but if things have gotten to the point where you believe that animal sacrifice business, I do not believe it is possible to have a reasonable conversation with you at this time, so I will stop trying to have one.

Sorry for being so blunt, I just don't know if there is anything I can say that will make a difference. Belief systems can be such a horrendous thing. Logic needs the assistance of heart-based wisdom in order to be functional and accurate.

     Hey Albert, what you did you order today at Cafe De Christian?  Me, I had a hummus/mixed greens/brown rice wrap, with a side of meditating and communing directly with Source, Yeshua, and the collective of Co-Creators. 

   Vince, it seems pretty clear that no matter what we say or don't say, you're not interested in hearing our views and perspectives.  Perhaps to some extent that is well, because both of us are fallible humans whom sometimes mis perceive things or have distorted perception.

   But I ask you to consider the following instead: Set some time aside for meditating and prayer, make a prayer/set an intention of asking to communicate and commune with only the original/first Creator and Yeshua.  Ask these to completely shield you from any hindering forces and beings. 

    Focus on remembering feelings of Love and/or gratitude, when you get deep and still within, ask the above if what Albert and Justin of the Afterlife Forum have been recently saying to you is more correct than not?  Ask them if Yeshua is the original Creator, or if he is a child of the original Creator whom became a full companion and Co-Creator with same through use of the Creator given Will?

    Since you won't listen to Albert and I about these issues, perhaps you'll listen to the Creator and Yeshua?

   Scripture is one thing, but direct communing with Source and Yeshua is something else entirely.  There are almost hundreds of different Christian groups/sects, and many of them interpret scripture differently in various different areas. Scripture is like anything related to perception--we interpret, translate, and perceive based on how we are at a being level.  If we are not very expanded and attuned to PUL and Source within, the more distortion is found in our perception and translation.  The more we attune to and choose these, the more clear, expanded, accurate, and helpful our perception and translating tends to become. 

  For awhile I read and pondered scripture (both the OT and NT, but with more emphasis on the NT), but then I decided that directly attuning to and communing with Source and Yeshua was a more helpful and direct way of realizing truths.  That has been my primary method for many years now.  When I talk about this method to others, I keep it open ended and say it's important to set an intention to communicate and commune with only the most expanded, most loving, helpful, creative-constructive (I don't tell them who or what that is).   

  I keep it open ended because I don't want to overly force my beliefs on others, but my little "secret" is, I don't say it exactly like that when I do the above, I often ask and pray to attune to and communicate/commune with only Source, Yeshua, and those fully One in a conscious sense, with these. 

  Though you and I have been doing this for many years now, our friend Vincent here whom has recently come to certain realizations, is the master of this method and knows far more than us cafeteria Christians whom don't know what we're talking about, even though we were correct about Seth, ACIM, etc.  :D  ;)  ;D

Recoverer 2 wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 5:34pm:

Oh my, I opened the link as to why animal sacrifices are done, and stopped opening links after that. Dude, sorry, but if things have gotten to the point where you believe that animal sacrifice business, I do not believe it is possible to have a reasonable conversation with you at this time, so I will stop trying to have one....

   While the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ is not true scripture, and does contain some errors, it still is a very interesting work.  In this book, it covers some of the missing years of Yeshua. There is a part in there when a young, 12 or 13 year old Yeshua is brought to Jerusalem for the first time and comes upon the outer part of the Temple where they were selling animals to be killed in sacrifice. 

   When Yeshua hears the tortured cries of the animals being killed and burned for sacrifice, he becomes very, very upset and asks why this is happening to these innocent animals, and he says that his Father God does not like, want, nor condone this kind of sacrifice. He becomes quite adamant about this point, and one of the Rabbi's that's with him and has seen the wisdom of young Yeshua, has his heart opened up and weeps with him. 

   Course, a fundamentalist will automatically disregard this account and this book because it's not "Holy Scripture" and yet in this account, I think it speaks far more to truth than does some official scripture.  Yeshua was clearly a person whom was very attuned to empathy and conscious Oneness.  He knew on a deep, knowing level, that this suffering that humans were putting animals through was needless and even worse, since it was being done in the name of "God".  Yes, surely God enjoys the extreme suffering of animals. Especially when doves were burned alive, and bulls, lambs, etc had their throats cut to bleed out.

  Yeah, maybe it was being done in the name of Reptilian "gods", but not the original Creator. The NT, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Edgar Cayce readings all indicate that very lacking in Light forces focused on Moses and tried to influence him.  Perhaps at times they did, though Michael fought same? 

Justin:

If you look at old Hindu texts and what some Native Americans did, they also sacrificed animals. I wouldn't be surprised if some fake Reptilian God got people to do animal sacrifices. Such practice has nothing to do with spiritual growth and the health of our souls. It is possible that Moses was misled at times. A person who isn't able to question the Bible won't see this.


wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 6:18pm:

Recoverer 2 wrote on Apr 26th, 2017 at 5:34pm: Oh my, I opened the link as to why animal sacrifices are done, and stopped opening links after that. Dude, sorry, but if things have gotten to the point where you believe that animal sacrifice business, I do not believe it is possible to have a reasonable conversation with you at this time, so I will stop trying to have one....    While the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ is not true scripture, and does contain some errors, it still is a very interesting work.  In this book, it covers some of the missing years of Yeshua. There is a part in there when a young, 12 or 13 year old Yeshua is brought to Jerusalem for the first time and comes upon the outer part of the Temple where they were selling animals to be killed in sacrifice.     When Yeshua hears the tortured cries of the animals being killed and burned for sacrifice, he becomes very, very upset and asks why this is happening to these innocent animals, and he says that his Father God does not like, want, nor condone this kind of sacrifice. He becomes quite adamant about this point, and one of the Rabbi's that's with him and has seen the wisdom of young Yeshua, has his heart opened up and weeps with him.     Course, a fundamentalist will automatically disregard this account and this book because it's not "Holy Scripture" and yet in this account, I think it speaks far more to truth than does some official scripture.  Yeshua was clearly a person whom was very attuned to empathy and conscious Oneness.  He knew on a deep, knowing level, that this suffering that humans were putting animals through was needless and even worse, since it was being done in the name of "God".  Yes, surely God enjoys the extreme suffering of animals. Especially when doves were burned alive, and bulls, lambs, etc had their throats cut to bleed out.   Yeah, maybe it was being done in the name of Reptilian "gods", but not the original Creator. The NT, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Edgar Cayce readings all indicate that very lacking in Light forces focused on Moses and tried to influence him.  Perhaps at times they did, though Michael fought same?

I have to say, I looked at some of the links, Dude. I got to the animal sacrifice links while clicking on your suggestions randomly. I was so repulsed by the content that I thought, oh, that's why I don't read the Bible. Then, I saw all the content regarding Jesus being the sacrifice for our sins and I realized that it was equally repulsive to me for the simple reason that any God that required or approved of such a thing follows no logic I can comprehend. But, that's just me.

I think that spiritual exploration brought and continues to bring seekers to this forum.  Part of this exploration involves reading and learning concepts or ideas, but another part involves a quest for direct spiritual experience.  People have presented their experiences with meditation, paranormal experiences, astral travel, etc., and have discussed near death experiences.  What unites most people here is the ability to share experiences and be open minded.

While I respect a person's decision to base their spiritual journey on the literal written interpretation of the bible, it makes it difficult to engage in discussions simply because a quote here or another there will, for the fundamentalist believer end the discussion (since to them, the quote of the written word is the highest authority).  That is why some fundamentalists eventually leave this forum, since they are there more to share the literal word of the bible, than to engage in an open discussion.


E. Swedenborg was a devout believer in Christ.  He also made thorough descriptions of the nature of the soul, heaven, hell, etc.  Some of what he described went against church doctrine - but not the teachings of the gospels.  In the NT, the nature of the soul, the stages after death that ES describes, none of this is described in any detail in the OT or NT.  For ES, his cosmology was congruous with the written word - just not the interpretation of man. 

To me, all this talk of angels vs. demons is a sign of a lack of understanding of the true nature of our consciousness.  In the physical world, we break everything down into polar opposites; good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, black vs. white, not realizing while incarnate that polar opposites are actually on a spectrum.  The yin yang sign bests describes this with a white fish and black fish in a circle.  The white fish has a black eye, and usually the black fish has a white eye, so that each of the opposites merge and the end of one is the beginning of the other. 

The idea that all spiritual communication or astral travel is to be avoided and done by the devil to deceive us is fear based nonsense (IMHO).  I see my consciousness as being part of the greater whole.  I don't see myself as being "up for grabs" by the dark side or the light, rather, we are all part of a greater consciousness. 

It is with this understanding that makes me find the fear based approach way off the mark.


M

Well I appreciate your comments and advice, although again, there was a time when I was saying the same exact things to Christians. I had many debates with Christian friends and family in which I was on your side of the argument. I haven't lost anything since then, I've gained something. I think it's a mistake to assume I am coming from a place of lacking reason, as I have not even begun to express my beliefs and the evidence which supports my reasoning. Of course, I'm not here for that, and I need to work on controlling my ego's desire to justify and prove myself, so thank you guys for helping me in that regard. I'm here to discuss ideas that come to mind as I'm reading ES's book, so I'll check in for the next one when it comes up. Peace!

  Yeah, difference being is that some of the folks you are talking to are in some very real and deep senses followers of Yeshua, have been that way for years, and when you were younger, you were more anti-Christian than at least I have ever been. You keep glossing over a lot of details and specifics, like how I started reading the Bible while a teen, not because of any outside reason or influence (no friends, no family members, no group, no churches, etc), but because of being intuitively led by guidance.

  Big differences between your comparisons. Neither do you seem to be aware that one can be a follower of and guided by Yeshua, and not be a dogma loving, religious self labeled Christian.

  And transit Uranus is in fact of course not currently closely squaring your natal Sun.  And everything Cayce's work said about Uranus, the Planets, and astrology in general is just a bunch of baloney, or if not, just doesn't apply to self at all.

  The interesting thing about Yeshua and his times, and here is a lesson if one has eyes to see: The Pharisees, Sadducee's, and Scribes were predominantly "religious" types who loved debating and thinking about scripture and all the various rules and commandments, and they especially were attached to their limited interpretation of scripture. 

  When Yeshua came, he pointed out to them that they had become way overly focused on dogma and scripture--the letter of the Law, and had lost the spirit of the scripture--that they cared far more about the rules and their interpreations of scripture than they did about the living truth, which is essentially Love and about a way of livingness in relation to others. And he PLAINLY stated that some scripture and commandments were higher or greater than others. 

  Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” *my use of bold, italics, and underline.

  Many religious Christians in our times, have become like the Pharisees, Sadducee's, etc of his times.  They argue and quibble over this or that verse, this or that interpretation, all the while missing the core spirit and essence of the NT, which is summed up in the above by Yeshua himself. They are stuck in religion and dogma. If they LIVED truth (that which is creative and expanding in essence) as he outlined, all would be opened up to and revealed to them, for perception ever follows beingness. 

  Like the Pharisees et al., they twist and interpret scripture to suit their own means and ends.

Some of Yeshua's important messages on one of the Monroe Explorer tapes
https://www.monroeinstitute.org/explorer-series   see explorer series#19

  During Howard Storm's NDE, he met and communicated with Yeshua and other Co-Creaotrs (he called them "Angels").  He asked them what was the best religion, expecting them to say Christianity. 

  He was surprised when they told him, the one that brings a person closest to God.

  My intuitive sense from having communicated with Yeshua during meditation and dreams, is that he is not particularly happy with how Christianity and many Christians has become. 

Justin

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think you that guys think I've become some hardcore Christian fundamentalist, when in reality this is simply not the case. As an example, I do not follow a majority of the old testament law, particularly the ceremonial and scribal laws. I stick to the basic moral and ethical laws, understanding that one's faith in God is genuine to the extent that one is able to show love to God and one's neighbor.

I particularly agree that there is an overemphasis on rules and an underemphasis on living the Word in love and spirit among many Christians, especially those I see participating in various Christian and Bible Discussion facebook groups. One issue is that some believe that following old testament laws IS living the truth of God, as they don't understand that Jesus came to fulfill the OT law and that we are saved by his grace rather than our own acts. Of course, one's faith in Jesus is genuine to the extent that one is able to live out what he taught, so one's actions will be a reflection of one's faith.

I'm not ignoring details and specifics as you said. I myself had faith in Jesus until my late teenage years and prayed daily.  As to the things you claimed I am not aware of (following Yeshua without the dogma), this is not necessarily the case. But if one has no faith that the Bible is the Word of God, then issues arise as to who exactly one is following. If one has no faith in the Word, then where does one's ideas regarding Yeshua come from? In this situation, a person is picking and choosing what they like and don't like from the Bible, and may be misguidedly following their own ego's preferences more than they are following God.

One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus not once objected to the Old Testament being the Word of God, but on the contrary, he constantly quoted it as being truth.  Perhaps our main difference is in our faith in the Bible being the Word of God, and on the purpose for some of the OT laws that have already been discussed. If you come to learn more about my actual beliefs and how I live, you'll see that my approach is far from the extremity that has been claimed in this thread.

Dude:

I read what you just said and take your word for it.

Both Justin and I are very interested in what Jesus had/has to say. So much so that we reach out to him and ask him for his guidance.

Before I meditate I always say "To God, Christ and the other beings of love and light that help me and that are close to me." I say the later words because I believe that there are a lot beings that live according to God's love and will. I want to make certain that I show love, respect and gratitude to any being that is assigned to help me. If a being other than God and Christ help me, I figure they do so with divine approval.

The only being that has identified himself to me by name has been Christ. On some occasions he has referred to himself as Christ, and sometimes as Jesus. Most of the time he doesn't identify himself. Perhaps it is enough for me to have faith in what I reach out to, and the divine presence I feel.  I don't mean to say that unfriendly beings never try to contact me. There have been occasions when they tried, so I always have to use my discrimination.

Regarding the Bible, I believe it can be a source of inspiration and a way to obtain some historical knowledge. But because I am committed to living according to God's will, and don't like to see either he or Jesus misrepresented, I take care when I read a book that was written, selected and translated by men. If I can be wrong at times despite God's will, then perhaps the men who put the Bible together can also be wrong at times. It seems to me that the NT Gospels are more reflective of what is true than the Old Testament.

Regarding the issue of whether or not Jesus is God, I don't know the answer to this question. I asked this question, and even though I have received other answers for other questions, I never received a definite answer to this question. It could be that I didn't receive a definite answer because Jesus isn't concerned about this. Going by my experiences with him, even though he feels quite holy, he is also very humble, sensible, and down to earth. I doubt that he is concerned about whether or not people view him as God. He understands quite clearly why people believe in different ways, and loves all people dearly regardless of their interpretations of what is true.

Consider the below from Howard Storm's "My Descent Into Death." During his NDE Jesus took Howard on a tour and showed him the below (from page 42).

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards referred to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up, Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys,  I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."

The above way of viewing things is in stark contrast to what some born again Christians contend, when they state that you better accept Jesus as your savior or you will go to hell for all of eternity. I believe they insult God and Jesus when they associate them with such beliefs. Certainly God and Jesus understand why people believe as they do, and don't judge them for not believing in a supposed "correct" way. I wonder how many people are turned off by the name "Jesus" because they don't like the "you better believe or else" talk. I believe it is a shame that some people associate Jesus' name with something that turns them off.

I Am Dude wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:34am:

Justin I agree with a lot of what you said. I think you that guys think I've become some hardcore Christian fundamentalist, when in reality this is simply not the case.

  First, thank you for the response with more details and specifics--it can be hard to know what a person does and doesn't believe when they keep everything very generalized. 

It does seem that you are going towards the fundamentalist side when you defend animal sacrifice in the OT,  imply that the entire Bible is completely the word of God and thus completely true and accurate, no questions asked or allowed, and say that Yeshua IS the original, first Creator (especially when he constantly refers to the Creator as “Abba” [Father]. A very curious way of referring to self since he supposedly was “The Creator”).  And yes, such beliefs and approaches do seem Uranian extremist to me, and speaking as a follower of Yeshua.


Quote:

One thing to keep in mind is that Jesus not once objected to the Old Testament being the Word of God, but on the contrary, he constantly quoted it as being truth.  Perhaps our main difference is in our faith in the Bible being the Word of God, and on the purpose for some of the OT laws that have already been discussed.

This is not quite fully true. It’s true that Yeshua did support some of the OT teachings verbally, BUT in action, he also contradicted certain OT scripture and the Pharisees et al. were quick to jump on him for this.

  Some examples--in the Torah you are not suppose to work or do anything other than contemplate scripture on the Sabbath--it’s a “day of rest” to follow the 7 “days” of creation and then rest in Genesis. Yeshua did various things, such as teaching, healing, and/or helping others on Sabbath day. 

   In the Torah, it says a woman accused and found guilty of adultery should be stoned to death.  Yet, Yeshua comes upon a woman in this situation, about to be stoned, and he defends her and saves her life.  He never says that she didn’t commit adultery, but by his actions and words, he indicates quite plainly that this scriptural “law” was off.  In truth, after he helps her, he tells her, “Go and sin no more”, indicating that she had been partaking in slow vibratory/unethical/limiting behavior and actions.

   Notice how sometimes when he quoted scripture, how he would say things like, “your scripture” like in the example I gave earlier, in schooling the Pharisee’s for condemning him for associating himself too much with the Creator and he says, does not your scripture say, “I have said, you are gods”.  That’s a curious use, why didn’t he say “our” instead of “your”?  By using “your”, he was indicating separation between himself and the scripture and them to some extent.  If he was so gung ho about the entire OT and everything in same, he most likely would have said “our” instead, indicating that he was just as connected to it as they were.

  These are the kind of things you begin to see when your eyes are opened up by direct, long time communion with him and what he called his/our Abba. One doesn’t need a book if one gets and lives the two greatest commandments and practices going within one’s closest to pray and listen to the Creator within. This combo of these two commandments, and his personal recommendation of the above practice to others, was his most consistent and repeated message on various levels, both in word, deed, and living example. He did not go on and on about various minor OT laws and rules, like the Pharisees et al. did with the people. He was the higher fulfillment or crowing of the history, genealogy, and teachings of the OT.  He became fully One with the Creator through constant right use of his freewill and attunement to PUL.  It also says "that the Son learned obedience through the things he suffered.” meaning, he was subject to the same laws of karma and consequence, until he became pure Love and transcended same.

  I think part of why Yeshua came when he did was to try to correct the Hebrew people and their beliefs, to try to reorient them back to the Creator and the Creator’s true ways, for they had wandered far afield from same by this point. If you read the OT, it indicates quite plainly that this happened a number of times in their history, and most of those times they ended up going through major tribulation and testing to try to reorient them back. With Yeshua, it was a more gentle and obvious reminder in some ways. 

    Note that while Yeshua spoke against and criticized the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes a number of times (the most popular, most in control, and with the most numerous adherents of the Judaic sects then), he never once uttered a word of criticism or rebuke to or about the Essenes, whom was a sect of more mystical oriented Judaism whom “lived in the wilderness” primarily to be away from what they viewed as the increasingly corrupt mainstream Judaic beliefs and peoples.  Kind of like how some folks in the US have formed small communes and intentional communities to do their own thing. 


Quote:

If you come to learn more about my actual beliefs and how I live, you'll see that my approach is far from the extremity that has been claimed in this thread.

  I'm sure in many ways you are a fine man and a more true follower of Yeshua, but it would be a mistake to think you're the only one of these here at this site.

  I want to amend or make plain some of what I said before about connection to extremes etc. I've come to view you not so much as extremist in the innate, born sense, but my intuition/guidance clued me in that you are currently under some powerful Uranus transits, and Uranus more than any other Planet or symbol represents tendencies and patterns towards the extreme and the extremist. 

  It's not that the physical Planet Uranus is somehow "causing" this.  That's ridiculous and very superstitious of a notion (which I've met astrologers that actually believe this).  Rather what's going on is that because we live in a Reality of fundamental Oneness/interconnection, different levels of our little reality can mirror others. Our inner consciousness can be reflected in the Planets in a symbolic way.  It's more akin to Jung's concept of synchronicity than anything else. 

  More specifically with astrology, these kinds of on going present and future Planetary transits and cyclic patterns, represent our going through life and our change within of attuning to different other life/self patterns within our Spirit/Disk.  In this case, I suspect you have a Christian fundamentalist pattern within your Spirit/Disk that has been coming to the fore under this current strong transit Uranus square to your natal (birth/fixed) Solar position.  I suspect that you are meant to work on this other life/karmic pattern and bring balance to him or her, and thus bring greater balance to your entire Spirit/Disk, which will lead to greater growth for you and your larger Spirit self.

   In some ways, a close transit Uranus square to one's Sun is a difficult, challenging cycle, but one filled with definite highs, and definite lows, on various levels. Try to remain temperate, moderate, and balanced while in this unusual, up down up down cycle. Because of some of those highs that you have experienced so far, you think you've found the ultimate way.  Consider that this is but a stepping stone to greater growth and more expanded truths. 

  I think you have a lot of potential, but if you get overly attached to a specific, codified belief system too much, this will end up limiting you. Direct communion with Yeshua and the Creator combined with living truth is worth so much more than any countless hours of reading and pondering scripture, especially other people's interpretations of same. And the truth is, all in all, the NT IS much faster vibratory than the OT, so focus given to the former over the latter is more innately helpful.

  Best of luck on your journey. I'm going to take a step back and not try to nudge you anymore.  It's your life and your path. I felt nudged by a combo of your guidance and my guidance in cahoots to interact, but I've been hearing/feeling recently that having some tendencies towards fixity (especially during this current cycle), if a person pushes too much, it may make you dig your heels in more.   

 

ES provides some of the most astounding verifications of postmortem survival ever; and yet, when he is deluded, that delusion can be serious.  I'm trying to understand the disconnect.  What strikes me about my life of paranormal experiences are the phases I go through.  At times, I feel "in the groove" and not only have one experience after another, but also synchronistically encounter others who have had powerful experiences which have prompted a burning quest.  Apparently, there are subtle changes in my mindset that shift me in and out of "the groove," and I need to get a better handle on this.

As for Christian/ mystical experiences, I have learned one crucial lesson over the years: the most powerful, life-transforming experiences are usually counterfeited in a deceptive way (e. g. authentic speaking in tongues).  Various explanations suggest themselves for this problem.  Dark forces may seek to undermine life-changing experiences that help us make decisive progress towards PUL and a more intimate connection with God.  But often, there is an easier, lazier path to such experiences fueled by wishful thinking that leads to a counterfeit.  In my experience, the truly magical experiences tend to be more rare and result from a long, often frustrating quest mined with roadblocks and failures.  I now recognize that learning how to "pray in the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:18) has been a key element to my best and most helpful paranormal experiences.  But I drift in and out of my willingness to pay the price to pray in this way because it takes a lot of time and self-discipline.   

Dude, I'd be interested in the key factors of your spiritual evolution.  Why don't you start threads under the section "Religions and Their Beliefs" on your spiritual journey and on your burning questions about the Bible, Christianity, and spiritual experiences.  I in turn will start threads there that respond to issues that I think might enhance your journey.   

Don, I've found for self, that it's a combo of going through major testing, challenge, and the like, in combo with how disciplined I am or not with a combo of prayer and deep meditation. 

  I haven't always been very good with the latter, and I can look back at periods of life and see clearly the connection between greater or lesser attunement depending how how much or little I'm consistently doing the above. 

  An ironic situation happened not that long ago (about a year and a half ago).  I gave meditation and prayer advice/suggestions to a new found friend, somewhat hypocritically in the sense that I was in a phase of lack of consistent application of same in my own life. 

  A few days or so later via email, he reported back that he tried my suggestions and ended up having a very long, detailed, and vivid guidance type dream (unusual for him).  Towards the end of the dream, he seemed to receive a message for this somewhat, at the time, hypocritical self. 


Quote:

I look directly into his eyes [talking about a friend that he is viewing]. He has three of them. His third eye is located in the middle of the regular two, right above the bridge of the nose smack dab on the lower forehead. His eyes are large, a bit mismatched and asymmetrical, and they look very catlike and Egyptian. They look sort of alien. I think to myself something along the lines of “wow, his third eye is open, but it’s sort of blind or something. How could this be?” He looks like he sees with great depth, but not with much clarity, and it also looks like his particular eyes aren't really capable of too much intimacy. They are sort of opaque, sort of glazed over and yet somehow very keen and definitely very, very strong. His are the eyes of a warrior. I feel love for him. He is my friend. He is my ally, and I like being around him, but it looks like he might be a little distant. The dream continues, but these were the most important parts.

  When I read the above, for various reasons, I knew it was speaking of me (Egyptian past life, Leo Risinng/Ascendant, I came here from a different system aka was an "ET" before I took on human form, tend to be a bit detached in friendships, general intuition, etc), and the criticism parts of having eyes that don't see too clearly etc, was because I wasn't praying and meditating consistently like I knew I should be. At the time, I was working a full time and part time job concurrently, plus having my spouse demand a certain amount of my time/focus, and having a penchant for being a night owl and staying up later than I should, combined to make it hard to meditate and pray in a consistent way. 

   I've been correcting this error/lack of application (imperfectly), and it definitely makes a difference. That part of his dream was part of the impetus to try to get my butt into gear.  Also a good illustration of how we are all both teachers and students to each other at different times.  I tried to be a teacher to him, by giving him some advice and suggestions and he got a guidance message for me, and thus became in a sense, a teacher to me in that moment. 

Albert

The idea that belief in Yeshua is the only ticket to eternal salvation may indeed be a difficult pill to swallow. The Catholic church believes there may be salvation for those who do not come to know Him through no fault of their own, although I'm not totally convinced in their authority or interpretations. But I think our logic is probably on a lower level than that of God's and thus such things may be impossible to truly comprehend.

Justin

I don't recall defending animal sacrifice. In fact, it was one of the most difficult aspects of the Bible to accept. I came to see it in a way that could make sense, however, with the help of those wiser and more knowledgeable than myself.

I don't recall saying questions aren't allowed. I've had numerous questions, and still have many. If one believes in God's power to affect this world in any way He sees fit, then the idea that he inspired the writing of scripture in a such a way as to reflect his will and to not allow major distortions that would alter his original Word isn't so far fetched.

Regarding your ideas about Jesus and the old testament, please read this for a better understanding: http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusignorelaw.php You'll see he was speaking out against tradition of men rather than the Word of God. Read this to see more of how Jesus supported the OT: https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/on-the-infallibility-of-scripture/

Some things in the OT are pretty brutal, but I believe that they may have been appropriate given the context of their society and God's plan for mankind. I imagine that the entire world would have been entirely corrupted in a relatively short period of time without such strict laws.

I'm currently reading both the OT and the NT, almost finished 2Chronicles and Romans. I'm also listening to lectures and debates regarding various topics discussed in the Bible to improve my understanding. I'm sure my views will evolve over time as I learn and pray more, so I think we can all just relax a bit.

Don

I'm very interested to hear more about praying in the Spirit.

I will indeed make a thread about how I came to realize Christianity is true and others with specific questions and doubts.

Do you think ES was deluded or deceived in his conversations with Angels? Or with his interpretation of the Bible? Or with his insights regarding his out of body explorations and findings?

Earlier in this thread I said I was working on a literal analysis of the Bible without adding anything to it. I misspoke when I used the word literal. I should have instead said "literary." There are various literary styles throughout the Bible, some being intended to be taken literally, others metaphorically, etc. For example, I don't think Jesus was saying that he was actually bread in John 6:35, but I do take it literally that he said that.

I was actually comparing my approach to the Bible with ES's, who essentially assigned a deeper spiritual meaning to even the most mundane verses, probably based on his insights from his mystical experiences. My point was that I was trying not to add my own ideas into the mix but rather take it for what it is, keeping in mind the various literary styles of course.

Don, what is your view of ES's interpretations of the Bible?

Dude: "Don, what is your view of ES's interpretations of the Bible?"

In general, ES's astral insights and discoveries are profound and ground-breaking, but his rigid preconceptions make him vulnerable to deception in 2 ways: 


(1) ES discourages others from following his lead in astral exploration because he rightly warns that regular "trips" to spirit planes can put one in contact with deceptive, even dangerous discarnate spirits.  But in my view, his own encounters with deceptive spirits sometimes fool him into confirmation of his false preconceptions, most notably his prior belief that other planets in our solar system are occupied by intelligent life.  Can we cut ES some slack by suggesting that discarnate spirits thrive in the energy fields of planets without actually occupying them "physically?"  I doubt that because the belief in intelligent life on other planets in our solar system is widely held by intellectuals (e. g. the renowned philosopher Immanuel Kant)  in ES's day.

(2) The degree of allegorical symbolism that he reads into many biblical texts is often too arbitrary and has little grounding in the original spiritual intention of the biblical authors.   On the other hand, ES often reads profound insights gleaned from his astral exploration into texts in a way that can be read with profit, especially in ES's use of Scripture to ground his insights into the transitional stages from death to postmortem destiny.  But this topic can best be assessed by considering ES's interpretations of specific biblical texts.

How can he so often obtain outstanding verifications of his afterlife contacts, when he is also so vulnerable to deception?  Ah, that is a very important question for assessing the claims of other alleged astral adepts.  I can only suggest 2 possible explanations:

(1) When ES is traveling in higher astral planes, his insights are generally valid and ground-breaking and his spirit contacts honest.  But when he unknowingly drifts down to lower planes, his spirit contacts are no longer as reliable and he is not always aware of the lower quality of the spirits that he engages there.

(2) ES's brilliant scientific mind makes him well aware of the tensions between lliteral interpretations of biblical texts and the best of scientific insights of his day.  As a result, wishful thinking makes him vulnerable to allegorical interpretations that evade this problem, but in the process loss their grounding in authorial intention.