["TheDonald" reflects my real name and replaces "Berserk2."  This is an old post from 2008 that I want to take in new directions with the new posters present.]

One can label a given spiritual plane as a heavenly or hellish realm in an arbitrary way.  Bruce Moen once describes a "City of Angels" in a way that seems distinct from Focus 27.  My impression from Bruce's description is that he was unable to explore this realm in depth.  Robert Bruce reports OBE glimpses of a similar glorious realm through a kind of keyhole, but is unable to enter it.  On the basis of all my reading about OBE and NDE exploration, here are my 5-fold criteria for "a true heaven."  These criteria fit the biblical model as well. 

(1) The environment is brighter than the sun, but does not hurt one's
      non-physical eyes.
(2) The percipient sees hundreds of brilliant new colors that are
     unknown on earth.
(3) Heavenly matter such as flowers and water droplets from ponds or
     lakes are literally "alive."
(4) The sounds of heavenly realms are transformed into unearthly
      music and interactive harmonies when prolonged attention is
      focused on them.  For example, NDEers may focus on the roaring
      of a heavenly waterfall.  As they maintain this focus, the roaring
      is transformed into spectacular music.  The NDEer then beocmes
      aware of different melodies emanating from the plants and
      flowers around him.  These different melodies blend together into
      one awesome harmony.  Some NDEers report that the joy of
      experiencing this harmony is even greater than the joy of their
      reunion with their deceased loved ones in the heavenly greeting
      party!
(5) Those entering this realm are overwhelmed by an awareness of
      PUL emanating from Christ.  This claim seems bolstered by the
      best verfications, most notably Swedenborg's many years of
      touring the heavens.  I am open to the possibility of non-
     Christocentric heavens, but so far the verifiable evidence
      known to me does not support this.  In any case, such inferences
       need to be based on oft replicated exploration rather than New
      Age political correctness or Christian bias.

I have now learned from both Ethiopian and Ugandan missionaries that thousands of Muslims are converting to Christianity as a result of experiencing Christ's presence in visions.  What is striking is that these converts do not interpret their visions in terms of the lofty portrait of Christ in the Koran.  Intrinsic to their visions is an awareness that this apparition is the Christian Jesus!  I discovered just how widespread this phonomenon is from  the Ugandan Children's Choir that recently performed in our church.  I am particularly impressed by verifications produced by paranormal experiences that defy preconceptions.  So I am also impressed by the widespread phonomenon of atheists being converted to Christianity through their NDEs.  Conversely, past discussion here has not produced even a single case of a Muslim who experienced the Being of Light as Muhammad.  Atwater does report a case where one of the non-luminous beings encountered by a Muslim is Muhammad.  But only the widespread patterns matter because the line between lucid dreams, hallucinations, and genuine NDEs is elusive.  Obviously, these patterns need to be researched in greater detail.

Don      

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I would add to 4 this...the absolute conviction of most NDEs that death is nothing to fear. All previous fear of death is gone.

R

Your post reminds me of the difficulty of identifying the affective states that attest contact with "the true Heaven." 
I will use the analogy of my own experience of speaking in tongues at age 16 during a period of total disillusionment with Christianity.  I'll spare you the details, but focus on 4 aspects of my experience:

(1) I was resistant to the possibility of the experience, but was "ambushed" by God in an experience so powerful I thought that my ego would vanish into divine mind and that the ongoing experience might kill me with its intensity!

(2) PUL talk can be trivialized as mere jargon.  What I experienced was 100 times sweeter and more powerful than any experience of love I have experienced before or since.  Unlike my other mystical experiences, I was utterly incapable of doubting its reality, and hence God's reality, in mundane later reflection.

(3) The aftereffect was an ongoing sense of intimacy with God and a sense of divine guidance that has seldom deserted me.   My academic abilities were so dramatically enhanced that I got financial aid for Masters and Doctoral programs at Princeton and Harvard, whereas previously academics had been a real struggle for me.  And I now began to have many psychic experiences for several decades.  My upcoming premonitions thread will document some of these. 

(4) Yet I don't fit well into any Pentecostal or charismatic traditions.  Why not? (a)  Because I consider 95% of their speaking in tongues as delusional experiences of mild ecstasy.  I know few Pentecostals whose experiences SEEM even remotely as powerful or life-transforming as mine.  Of course, I'm saying this presumptuously on the basis of what they do and don't say about their experience!
(b) Because most Pentecostals construe their experience as a confirmation of their theological belief system.  But in my experience, God delivered a very different message to me: "Don, you crave answers to all your questions.  But right now, answers aren't good for you because they would cause you to live too much in your head rather than from your heart.  I want you to detach from answers and just passionately live the big questions until they lead you to the center of my heart."  That was heavy stuff a 16 year old!

How does all of this relate to my criteria for "the true Heaven?"  Well, I'm confident that there is a level of PUL that one experiences in "the true Heaven(s)" that is dramatically different from the presumed PUL experienced in lower planes such as "hollow heavens."  The problem is that this "vibrational" difference in quality of experience is hard to articulate in ordinary jargon.  I would claim to have had only fleeting glimpses of this "higher heavenly vibration," so my readers are surely entitled to be skeptical of my beliefs on this matter.   

Hi Don!!

Be Blessed by God!

Alan

" Conversely, past discussion here has not produced even a single case of a Muslim who experienced the Being of Light as Muhammad.  Atwater does report a case where one of the non-luminous beings encountered by a Muslim is Muhammad.  But only the widespread patterns matter because the line between lucid dreams, hallucinations, and genuine NDEs is elusive.  Obviously, these patterns need to be researched in greater detail."

While there is a dearth of reporting of Muslim NDEs, I have found a website with many videos of Muslim NDEs.  These are first person video accounts where Muslims describe their NDEs, interactions with Allah, angels, Etc.  Definitely worth a look. 

http://ndevideos.com/category/muslim/

Love does appear to be the key factor of the afterlife, and as ES noted, love of others (the neighbor) and love of God (the foundation of what is good and what is true).  Somehow, I think that heaven is related more to love and less to an earthly religious affiliation.



Matthew

rondele wrote on Jan 27^th, 2017 at 6:56pm:

I would add to 4 this...the absolute conviction of most NDEs that death is nothing to fear. All previous fear of death is gone. R

I agree but one thing about the afterlife, excluding reincarnation, is to exist in a blissful state for all eternity. Eternity is a very long time indeed and a mere mortal in the temporary clothing of my soul, namely my physical body makes me look at an eternal existence with more than a little trepidation.

Do you guys feel the same way??

I am delighted with the new life and discussions over the past few days. A breath of life into a dying forum, great efforts guys

A

Roger, I also find it interesting that while most people who have had a NDE no longer fear death, they also report having a continuation of their survival instinct upon returning to the physical plain, even when they fervently did not want to return. 

For a while now, I've considered the various early stages of death as a shedding of one's fearful human consciousness and ego.  It seems difficult to imagine going from a world of external objects that most of us have based our identity on, to a world that is non-physical or internal.  And for this reason people seem to project a human perspective to information they receive in the non-physical, and therefore believe that what they see, is what is objectively there, when the experience is internal, and subjective. 

There are no actual objects in the non-physical.  What people see is a subjective interpretation of information received, or a form of communication.  So perhaps in trying to identify the various realms/heavens it might be more prudent to try to identify various states of being.  The highest heaven is a state of being, not an objective place in my understanding.

Hi Kathy-

Nothing especially new here, but thought I'd post it anyway in case there's any newby lurkers.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/01/31/your-life-may-indeed-flash-before-your-eyes-at-death.html

R

Lights of Love wrote on Jan 31^st, 2017 at 4:16pm:

Roger, I also find it interesting that while most people who have had a NDE no longer fear death, they also report having a continuation of their survival instinct upon returning to the physical plain, even when they fervently did not want to return.  For a while now, I've considered the various early stages of death as a shedding of one's fearful human consciousness and ego.  It seems difficult to imagine going from a world of external objects that most of us have based our identity on, to a world that is non-physical or internal.  And for this reason people seem to project a human perspective to information they receive in the non-physical, and therefore believe that what they see, is what is objectively there, when the experience is internal, and subjective.  There are no actual objects in the non-physical.  What people see is a subjective interpretation of information received, or a form of communication.  So perhaps in trying to identify the various realms/heavens it might be more prudent to try to identify various states of being.  The highest heaven is a state of being, not an objective place in my understanding.

In 2011 I had a near death episode in which I flat lined due to total AV heart block. I did not find the experience of almost dying frightening in anyway, it was like moving into a blanket of dark love. I now live with a heart pacemaker.

A

TheDonald wrote on Jan 27^th, 2017 at 4:19pm:

But only the widespread patterns matter because the line between lucid dreams, hallucinations, and genuine NDEs is elusive.  Obviously, these patterns need to be researched in greater detail. Don

Hi Don,

I'm curious to know what you find elusive about the types of experiences you listed?  Do you mean that you're not sure how to distinguish between them? 

I've personally had hundreds of OBEs, an NDE, and many lucid dreams.  I know how I distinguish between them all. 

You also said:  "I'm confident that there is a level of PUL that one experiences in "the true Heaven(s)" that is dramatically different from the presumed PUL experienced in lower planes such as "hollow heavens."  The problem is that this "vibrational" difference in quality of experience is hard to articulate in ordinary jargon." 

So I'm curious how you distinguish "The true Heaven(s) from hollow heavens.  Your statement sounds like you're saying that there are false heavens and true heavens, and that ones experience falls into one of these categories. 

I personally don't connect with any religion or religious beliefs whatsoever.  I have no preconceived ideas or beliefs about what the afterlife will be or should be like, for me or anyone else.  I don't personally label anything in my experiences as being of or from Christ, Christian, or non-Christian.  To me there's no need for such demarcations.  And ultimately we each only ever perceive within our own conscious awareness.  I guess the point I'm getting at is, are you searching for evidence of a "real afterlife" set apart from the limitations of belief and religion?  If so, I don't think that's even possible.  I think any of us is only ever going to be discovering more about the true nature of our own being.  For example, for me to personally want to distinguish between a Christian heaven and any place else, I'd have to first have some preconceived beliefs about a Christian heaven, not to mention some experience going there.  Then I'd need to compare that experience to other "heavens".  As it stands for me at the moment, I have no desire or interest in going to these specific places. 

All I know for certain, beyond any doubt, was that where I went in my NDE was my "Home".  It was where I had come from and where I had been many times.  And it's where I'll go again.  Being there gave me no sense of "Yeah there's this, but I wonder what else there is." 

Hi Roger,

Interesting that studies are being conducted on the life reviews people report.  The only problem I see is that they're coming from the perspective of the brain producing consciousness.  I disagree.  I think more than enough evidence exists that shows consciousness as non-physical, however I do believe it is likely that the brain, as well as the body stores memory in a relationship between the spiritual and physical levels of being.



Alan, yes I'm familiar with a velvety black realm that has the feeling of warmth and love from a NDE I had as a child.  I've had numerous spiritual experiences and all have incorporated incredible unconditional love.  I have never had an experience that could be classified as dark or evil.  Like Vicky mentions, whenever I've interacted with non-physical realms, I've felt "at home" and even more comfortable and at ease.

Kathy, I agree. Even living things without a brain (there's a joke in there somewhere  ;D) such as plants or trees, have a form of consciousness. Maybe even rocks or so I've heard.

R

rondele wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2017 at 11:58am:

Kathy, I agree. Even living things without a brain (there's a joke in there somewhere  ;D) such as plants or trees, have a form of consciousness. Maybe even rocks or so I've heard. R

I agree all things have a sort of consciousness, less like those of human and more like memory bank such as CDs Hard-Drives etc.

The other day I saw a smallish rock that looked almost identical to mount Matterhorn in Switzerland and took it home. It weighed only 10 pounds or so. I just touch it now and again and can feel some of the 5 billion year history of our planet flowing into my consciousness

A

Here is some views about the heavenly realms I have picked up from my own experiences and research of many years.

The physical universe is not infinite or eternal; it is a creation of God the work of the sublime intellect beyond human comprehension. It had a beginning and it will have and end in the very distant future.

Our physical earthly realm is a bleak shadow when compared even to the least beautiful heavens. It is, however, one of the most beautiful blue water worlds in our universe.

Our physical earthly reality is unimaginably more beautiful compared to some other cold dark planes.

There are evil entities residing in these lower realms that have their free will restricted to a greater and greater degree as they are forced to descend further and further into the abysmal dark of the lowest realms of the many hells.

There are more than one dark realm, just as there are many heavenly realms.

In heaven we continue to be challenged and, you continue to learn create, discuss. You have to graduate up and up to greater higher heavens or you can go down to lower darker realms if you want or go anywhere any when anytime and visit wonders so beautiful that they are unimaginable to our mortal mind

You become a co-creator, with God, your loved ones are there, you can sleep for a thousand years you want and wake up were you want when you want. You can close you soul eyes and take a leap and surprise yourself where you land up. You can continually move or you can rest

There is no such thing as sitting on a cloud playing a harp with a host of angels forever. God is wise enough not to bring you into a place that never ever changes or a place you can not change yourself. You can be male female and know how love works from both sides

Here is another but also true perspective of heaven.

One of countless dimensions, it is the door way to countless challenges, ceaseless learning

It is the first realm of the afterlife The reason so many who have had NDE come back with different descriptions of heaven is that one is eased into heaven with "familiar surroundings" than that of physical life.

That is why we hear of people in cloths or clothes and little cottages beside a river.

But the soul must move on to higher reality into harmonious vibrations of great intensity and joy. We become able to comprehend much of the Divine Mind as we progress through great realms of pure thought and love. We interact with all other sentient life, both physical and spiritual.

Souls interact when their vibratory intensities harmonize and merge into immense beautiful mandala of colours unknown in the physical realities it is really birds of a feather flock together in the afterlife. So the bleak and dark will congregate with those of their own kind.

Graduations from these heavens is necessary just as graduations from the highest heavens continue forever,

God never ceased to create he is the ceaseless creator reaching out with us toward infinity

There is no end to this great journey, we interact with all existence, merge, and submerge in infinite love and joy.

We approach the infinite light that pervades all of existence this great mind that sustains everything. We become co creators with god all souls first in our universe and then in billions of others.

Heaven is not a place of rest because no one there gets tired. It is a new lease on life. Nevertheless, you can rest if you like, nothing is forbidden in heaven, if it were heaven would not be heaven.

All thought and minds are open when permitted by the other person and communication is mind to mind or telepathy. Thus dark minds must keep to their own until new light enters their souls and they are able to merge with higher souls in the everlasting progress of life.

There is a never ceasing experience for evolved souls of merging with the light God. It is like having your body explode in a pleasant way and becoming a million different atoms.

Each atom can think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. You feel all at once what it feels like to be everything and everybody. This can be seen in quantum physics.

The mind of the soul expands outward to encompass the universe until it embraces all of existence becoming all in all with God. All knowledge is known.

Things in heaven do not age, don't get dirty, don't wear out, and do not get tired. Everything is kept pure by God.

Our deceased pets appear in heaven the way we remember them, only younger and more vital. We can communicate with them telepathically. They also have dwelling places of their own

I use the term heaven in the singular as well as the infinite plural. Heaven embraces everything, because heaven is GOD

The End

Regarding lucid dreams, it is mistake to conclude that they aren't a good source of information because one has received information from such a dream that couldn't be verified, because some people receive information from lucid dreams that can be verified. It is a matter of the circumstances that are in play and what a person needs.

I've found that most of my dreams, whether lucid or regular, serve the purpose of helping me learn from them.  There are clues within the dreams that let me know that they are created by some form of love-based guidance.

Once a person understands that he (or she) can receive information this way, he is more likely to receive it.

Some say deceptive beings can create dream experiences for people. I don't know to what extent this is true. If one closely considers what takes place within one's dreams, one can determine if they have a friendly source.

Regarding why some NDEs seem more dogmatic than others, I believe it is partly a matter of what a person is open to, and partly a matter of what his (or her) audience is open to. Consider Howard Storm. When he speaks to a Christian group he sounds quite Christian. But listen to how he speaks to a non-Christian group.

On youtube check out the three part video called, "Rare Near Death Experience Interview with Howard Storm" . There are three parts.
Albert

I do not think one can say there is a criteria for a single true heaven, when in fact in both the afterlife and in the physical dimension, there are countless realms and alternate realms of existence?