Some sources claim that , physical immortality is the ultimate goal and This earth is the real heaven . Definitely , this is a totally contradictory viewpoint from the Vedantic or ACIM philosophies who profess that this earth life is illusion and dream. People like Bruce Moen wants to come back to earth again and again . Whereas some new age thinkers are totally opposing the idea of reincarnation. So what is the real value / status of earth life?  Physical Immortalists view earth / physical life as Divine and Sacred whereas ACIM people say it is meaningless , illusion and without any purpose. So many contradictory viewpoints !!!!!

I can't say I agree with the ACIM/Vendantic viewpoints which are quite similar, despite differing verbiage.

Awareness, mind and the ability to create all have the same source.

This World helps our souls grow and become wiser, so it is more than a meaningless illusion as ACIM and Vedanta state.

Regarding something being real versus not real, this is a distinction the human mind makes when it views things in a limited way. There is simply existence, and it can seem gross as we experience in this "physical" world, and it can seem more subtle as experienced in a high level spirit realm. In each case the same basic beingness is utilized.

Regarding reincarnating repeatedly or becoming one with Source forever, it is a matter of how one believes true fulfillment can be found.  A lot of people search for love in this world through relationships, as if love is the most fulfilling thing they can experience. Are human-based relationships the most fulfilling way to find love, or is there a way that is much more expansive and that doesn't include the limitations that human relationships often include?

Real or illusion depends on your point of view. If you are reading a very absorbing book and are imagining the plot vividly you may still have some awareness of the room around you, but you can be very caught up in the story.

When you put the book down you may forget about it for a time unless you pick it back up, when you can turn to any page and relive it. Later in life you may have less interest in the book, no matter how interesting it was at one time. However, someone else may receive benefit or enjoyment from it.

Now, if you turn the book into a play and act it out, that puts a different spin on it. The creative possibilities are changed. Things can happen, people can go off script on purpose or on accident, the audience can get involved, etc. etc.

Looking out into nature and at our lives one can see how endlessly creative life can be.

From that perspective I can get a small, very tiny glimpse into how "real" and "illusion" are just words. What might be interesting to consider is what endures?

It is clear that the ultimate source of life is very loving, and that love permeates all being. You could say that love is what endures, so love is what is real. 

Our relationships here on earth are just fragments of something much greater, incomprehensively greater. It is helpful to remind oneself of that, so as not to be overwhelmingly disappointed when things don't work out to one's advantage here, which can easily happen.

Try telling your mother that she really is an oversoul and that you were her mother in another lifetime (she was a he, your son), and then try not to get in an argument who's the real mother.

http://theblacksphere.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pearlclutching.jpg

Cute picture. Looks kind of like me *sometimes* when I'm reading this forum... ;D

anondoraja wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

Some sources claim that , physical immortality is the ultimate goal and This earth is the real heaven . Definitely , this is a totally contradictory viewpoint from the Vedantic or ACIM philosophies who profess that this earth life is illusion and dream.

In a sense, they are all true.

It is like one man arguing that a motorcar runs on petrol, while another argues it runs on water, while another argues it runs on oil, while another argues it runs on air, while another argues it runs on electricity. In fact, it runs on all of these. Take any one away, and the car either won't start or won't go far before its stops dead. 

1796- I'm guessing the crucifixion was both symbolic and an actual event?  As was perhaps the resurrection?  And even the Christ?

R

rondele wrote on Dec 11^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:

1796- I'm guessing the crucifixion was both symbolic and an actual event?  As was perhaps the resurrection?  And even the Christ? R

Exactly.

There is nothing that is not both symbolic and actual, because there is more to everything than meets the eye.

Naturally, the more significant, influential and impacting, the item is, the more symbolism there is within and behind it. Of put another way, the more there is of it that is unseen.

I understand everything about the Jesus story as being actually true, as in fundamentally and literally, and also symbolically and esoterically. That is why I am happy in congregation with any sort of Christians, whether Fundamentalist, Anglican, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox. To me they are all real and beautiful.   

Everyone exposed to the Jesus story, whether they like it or not, whether they see it as true or not, whether they accept its message or not, or believe it or not, develops a discernible cross on their soul in their forehead that grows up from out of their heart.

There is no getting away from that. The western world is the Christianised world, is Christendom, and every western soul has this cross within it. Including western atheists, humanitarians, spiritual-but-not-religious anti-Christians who despise Christianity and think they have some better or higher social or spiritual alternative. If they could see their own soul they would not like it. In fact, they can sense it and they do not like it. But too bad for them, like or not, every western soul is Christianised and carries in its heart and on its forehead the cross of Christ. And will be judged by it.

Every western soul has a body of mind, emotion and physicality that is being steadily crucified upon the cross in their soul - a real cross that grows from out the heart up to the head, and that non-westernised/non-Christianised souls do not have.   

<<Every western soul has a body of mind, emotion and physicality that is being steadily crucified upon the cross in their soul - a real cross that grows from out the heart up to the head, and that non-westernised/non-Christianised souls do not have>>

I'm having trouble understanding this.  The original Christians were middle eastern.  What is unique about western souls?  Aren't souls independent of geography?  Or are you saying it's no accident in terms of where they incarnate?

R

1796:

I don't get it. Sometimes you express a strong sense of distaste for people such as those who are atheists. Yet you had an OBE where you said you were forced to experience a negative past life so you would stop being judgemental towards others. What is the deal here?

I really doubt that Jesus feels judgment towards such people. I say that, yet I had an experience that sort of relates to what you said about westerners having a cross within them. The below if from my book "A Night in Heaven."

"As I opened up to finding out what Christ is about, I noticed that some heart chakra blocks cleared for me. One night I was reading Elaine Pagel’s book The Gnostic Gospels. She wrote that the Gospel of Thomas speaks of Jesus as an enlightened man; the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of Jesus as a messenger of God; and the Gospel of John speaks of Jesus as God himself. Before I went to bed that night I prayed and asked for a dream which told me which version is true. In the middle of the night I woke up so I could write notes about a dream I had. I turned on my night lamp, grabbed a pen and my dream journal, and before I could write anything I saw a light flash. Before this event I had seen spirits appear as flashing points of light on numerous occasions; however, the light I saw on this occasion was much bigger than any flash I had seen before, and radiated much more energy. It felt divine. It felt more real than the physical world. I laughed to myself and thought, “And some people don’t believe in the world of spirit. How could it be doubted?” I forgot about my dream notes, put away my pen and dream journal, turned off my night lamp, and lay on my side. I was overcome by the energy of the spirit presence that visited me.

I didn’t see or hear Jesus; nevertheless, I felt that I was experiencing the presence of his spirit partly because this seemed like a likely response to my prayer, and partly because of a deeper understanding that is hard to completely re-experience simply by thinking about it. I felt a lot of love, humility, reverence and gratitude towards Christ as I experienced his presence. I felt so honored that he took the time to visit me. His energy worked on my upper four chakras  for about 10 to 15 minutes in a manner that went beyond how kundalini ever did so. Ever since this event occurred the energetic flow in my upper chakras has been more clear, balanced and alive. It is almost as if there are energetic pathways that serve the purpose of making an energetic connection to Christ.

I still can’t say for certain which gospel is more accurate when it comes to who Christ is. Nevertheless, this experience gave me the impression that the spirit of Christ can visit anybody he wants to visit, and probably as many people as he wants to visit. I don’t believe that Christ’s entire spirit visited me on this occasion. I figure he is a very vast Being who extended a part of himself to where my energy signature was. Since this occasion, his presence has visited me a number of times. There were occasions where my energy with the assistance of his presence pushed towards my crown chakra with such force--I thought my head would come off. Eventually the energetic blocks in my head area cleared, so intense sessions are no longer needed."

Quote:

I'm having trouble understanding this.

Ha, you and me both.  ;)

   Now, I'm not throwing stones at 1796, as I appreciate what he has to say and hope he fleshes it out. I am very willing to listen and learn. I understand things can be actual events, say the Crucifixion, and also symbolize something else. That is what Christianity says much of the Bible does. For example, Moses' serpent on the pole (if actual) represented Christ.
   What I don't get is how a mythical event can be actual and symbolical. Telling me the Creation story is accurate and symbolical is like telling me the statements "the earth is flat" or "the moon is made of cheese" are accurate and symbolical. As far as being accurate, both statements are falsifiable. They may be symbolical of something, but they are not literally accurate.


Quote:

What is unique about western souls?  Aren't souls independent of geography?  Or are you saying it's no accident in terms of where they incarnate?

Agreed. I am partial to Christianity myself as I grew up that way and still consider myself a Christian to some extent. However, it seems to me that a Buddhist view of reality, for example, more accurately represents how things really are than the Christian teaching.

Like I said, I'm open to learn. I just don't understand the riddles yet.  :)

Maybe 1796 is just testing us to see if we're paying attention. Sort of like the wife who complains her husband never listens to her, so she tells him she wrecked the car and he says "that's nice, dear".

Btw I agree that 1796 (cb) has written some of the most thought provoking posts in a long time, and I definitely want him to stick around.

R

I don't know how 1796 came up with the cross within viewpoint. Perhaps he was shown a symbolic representation. Christ Consciousness (love-based consciousness) abides in all of us (including non-Westerners). It is a matter of whether we avail ourselves to it. I believe that there are a lot of beings that exist at Christ Consciousness level. Such level of existence doesn't belong to one religion. Such level of existence includes tolerance for others.

The below is also from my "Night in Heaven" book.  Should the part about Jesus be considered literally, symbollically, or both?

"On another occasion as I lay in bed awake with my eyes closed I was shown a life-size image of a heavy metal rocker dude. I could see kundalini flowing within him (please see the previous chapter for information about kundalini). He said: “I use my kundalini for evil.” Next I was shown a demonic image of myself. Next I was shown the face of Jesus Christ. At the time I believed this meant that if I’m going to go through the kundalini ascension process, I better make certain I do so with Christ consciousness/love in mind, because the creative aspect of being can be used in different ways. After I started to receive messages about Christ, I figured that perhaps this message also served the purpose of letting me know about Christ."

The cross is real and actual. Not figurative.

The cross is as described, within the soul, and arising from the heart to the head. 

I don't blame others for finding it hard to comprehend. I would not be able to comprehend it either if I had not seen it for myself many times, and from different angles too, and also come to understand its causes, function and purpose.

It defies spatial understanding as we know it. My other post on symbolism (on the visualising disks thread) also describes how shapes and numbers take on forms in some dimensions that are almost incomprehensible without seeing them for oneself, and even then they are difficult to grasp. I cannot expect others to fully comprehend such things if they have not seen them, but I might be able to describe some of the main details and provide a rough glimpse of what the structure is about.

The cross-arms of the soul are “lines of reach” and “potential reach” of heart and mind that lie dormant in all souls but are made active in Christianised souls.

These "lines of reach" and "potential reach" are the "energetic reaches" of heart and mind as existent within the individual between the extremes of right and wrong, good and evil, truth and falsity.

All things are parts of spectrums, and naturally there is a spectrum between the completely dormant and the fully open cross. The average reach of left and right of the cross-arms varies from race to race and from nation to nation, is a collective average, and the width and degree of activation of the cross in an individual depends upon the extent of the individual's comprehension of truth, love and goodness, and their opposites.      

One reach is to the left, the other to the right. Bear in mind that as high and low in a three dimensional sense are different to, but reflective of high and low in a spiritual sense, so too, left and right are different to, but reflective of left and right in a spiritual sense. (Through several dozen statements sprinkled through the book, the old and new testaments describe the nature of this left and right spiritual sense very well.)

The cross is caused to activate in the heart by Christ's introduction to the minds and hearts of men of the concept of divine love being possible to be exercised by man. And with conceiving that possibility comes also into the hearts and minds of men its opposite concept - the rejection of it and the pretence of it. These two concepts came into the world together, one with the other, for it is impossible to teach something good without also revealing something bad. John speaks of this twofold effect in 1 & 2 John.    

Every soul has a vertical dimension to it, that is, an up and down reach.

The soul within man runs between the crown and base centre, passing through each of the other centres. Each centre is a segment of the soul's cord. The soul is both spherical and cordlike, as a staff is both round in cross section and long in length, but a staff is three dimensional and the soul is multidimensional, so the soul is spherical in cross section.

The cross is within the vertical structure of the soul, and cross it and stems from it too, arising from heart up to the head. The cross arms are in the heart and in the head, and even at the shoulders and throat, and yet they are all one cross-arm. That sounds illogical I know, but I can't explain it better than that just now, except to say that they are also like plates. I remind readers I am speaking of energetic structures but they do have form. 

The cross replicates itself in the shape of the body with outstretched left and right arms, also in the features of the face, being the facial midline and the eyes, and reflects itself in the relationship between the ethmoid bone and the frontal face of the maxilla. Where is arises from the heart centre it replicates in the physical heart which can be seen in cross section where the walls of the heart's four chambers are cruciform.

Each of these physical structures has an energetic structure connecting it to the cross, and this can be observed by sliding the vision up and down scale of energetic frequencies when we are out of body or if we have developed second sight.

Bear in mind that every structure in the soul with every flow and potential flow of energy and the interactions of those energies is replicated or reflected in the anatomy and physiology of the physical body, also in the mental and emotional bodies, each in accordance with the nature of their substance and their purpose and requirements. Each of these replications, reflections, imprints,...  are living actual symbols of the greater item which is their cause. 

1796:

I haven't seen what you've seen so I can't confirm things that way.

As two of my earlier posts seem to suggest, it does seem as if it is possible to make an energetic connection to Christ. He might be a representative to the highest level of consciousness and by opening ourselves to him we open up to that level of consciousness. We do have the option of choosing differently, and that option can be quite negative.

Below is some more from my book "A Night in Heaven."

"After becoming clear about the above, I started to wonder who Jesus Christ is. What role did he play while in this world and what role does he play today? One day I went for a walk and directed my thoughts toward God. I told him, “Whatever your will is, I’m respectful towards it. However, I can’t believe what some people believe about Christ, simply because the Bible says so. I would be lying to you and myself if I made such an assertion. I’m well aware that the Bible was put together by numerous men and has gone through a number of translations. Therefore, it might be mistaken about Christ.” When I did this I was sincere about receiving the answer, regardless of what the answer would be.
     It didn’t take long before I started to receive answers. One night as I lay in bed I was shown a crucifix; I asked, “Why?” I was then shown a manikin with no legs, no arms and no head placed on a stand that stood on a department store floor. On this manikin was a sleeveless white fur coat with black polka dots. The meaning of this image might not seem obvious, but I understood it quickly: “They killed him (Jesus), they put him on display, they spotted his reputation.” Next I experienced myself press the high C note on my piano (non-physically). This meant that Christ represents the highest consciousness level there is. Regarding the spot his reputation part of the message, I’ll speak about this in a little while.
     Some of the messages I received were simple. One time I was shown the words, “Jesus saves.” On another occasion I saw the words, “Accept Christ.” One time I was shown a golden crucifix. One night I had a dream where a very loving young lady walked around an amusement park and handed people including me a piece of paper which said: “Jesus saves.” (More about this later, I provide an untypical and nonfundamentalist interpretation of what “Jesus saves” means.)
     During the same period of time I remembered a couple of messages I had received before I told God that I was open to finding out what Christ is about. On one occasion while in a non-physical state I tried to help a stuck spirit  move on towards the light. We stood at the edge of a cliff by an ocean. While I was speaking to him (telepathically) he jumped into the water down below. I jumped in after him and there were a lot of large rocks. I spoke to him while under water, and suddenly we were at the top of the cliff again. I got the impression that he had committed suicide by jumping off the cliff, and was repeating the experience. While I spoke to him a second time at the top of the cliff, he started to ignore me because across a bay to my left (the ocean was to my right), the image of Jesus appeared. Gold light radiated from Jesus and filled the scene. When the man I tried to help saw Jesus he forgot all about me and floated to where Jesus was. It took him a short amount of time to traverse the distance even though it didn't seem as if he moved with great speed. (I guess linear 3D reality had little to do with what I experienced.)
     The gold light that radiated from Jesus wasn't made up of beams of light as one might expect. Instead I saw numerous waves of light. Why? Perhaps because the high-level spirit being I worked with understood that if I saw waves of light rather than expected beams of light, I might be more prone to understand that more than the random meanderings of my subconscious mind were involved. Weight is added to this conclusion when I consider how some of my other retrieval experiences manifested.  I must add that this wasn't a dream. It happened while I was meditating, and the experience was quite conscious.
     
.....

     During this same time period I started to remember my Night in Heaven experience more completely. I remembered the part where I had found out about Christ. I also remembered that during the experience there was no doubt about what I had understood. I didn’t receive a lot of details, but I understood that the person of Jesus Christ did in fact exist, and in some way he is a part of higher spiritual truth."

I'd like to add something that I didn't say in my book. I've had experiences with the spirit of Jesus and he radiated a really nice feeling.  A level of divinity that people found very pleasing. Yet, he was very humble and down to Earth. He didn't seem like a being who would want to be treated in a worshipful way.

Recoverer, your insights into Jesus Christ are interesting. I encourage you towards where they prompt you.

***

Relevant to the cross:

These posts one to nine, describe one out-of-body experience researching human conflict. Post six describes the origin of the cross. The preceding and latter posts are sociological effects of it. 

https://lacecurtain.wordpress.com/?s=current+world+conflict

And this.

https://lacecurtain.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/616/

There are more that I intend to put up one day, but for now that is it.

1796:

I read your blog about Jesus etcetera before. I believe I give more credit to people who do compassionate things without believing in Jesus than you do.

I will say that I've always been a compassionate person, but energetically I am significantly more alive and connected to Source than I used to be.  Having an open mind about Jesus played a role in becoming open in such a way.

I can't say with one hundred percent certainty what he is all about.  I can say that I've had not only the experiences I shared but others that involve him. Some people might say that they are just a play of my imagination that is due to my belief systems, but they occurred in a way where prior beliefs didn't seem to be a limitation. It was matter of being informed on how things are.

I'm not into channeled sources, but there are a couple of sort of channeled sources that I like. Not the kind where a spirit speaks through a person's body, the kind where people receive information from a spirit telepathically, as I do.

One such source is Margaret Twedell's book "Witness from Beyond." Another is Geraldine Cummins books "The Road to Immortality" and "Beyond Human Personality." (she received information from Frederick Myers). These books speak as if Jesus was/is the manifestation of God.

Another book with channeled information that seems okay to me is Rosalind McKnight's "Cosmic Journeys." This book speaks as if Jesus brought love to this world. In this case a being did speak through Rosalind's body.

When I had my Night in Heaven experience I was an ex-Catholic who didn't believe in Jesus etc. During this experience, while I was like in an expanse of spirit space, I was quite surprised to find that the story of Jesus was basically true. I say basically, because I didn't receive details that I could compare to Bible verses. Whatever the case, what I experienced felt very positive, not negative as fundamentalist Christianity can sometimes feel.

It could be that some people are resistant to the idea of Jesus because they are resistant to authority. That part of their free will resists. Perhaps there is a way to think of divine authority that isn't repressive and limiting.

recoverer wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

... It could be that some people are resistant to the idea of Jesus because they are resistant to authority. That part of their free will resists. Perhaps there is a way to think of divine authority that isn't repressive and limiting.

How is the Jesus concept repressive and limiting?

It's repressive if presented in a "you better believe or else" way.  There is no way a person/soul can respond in a wholehearted way if fear is one of the motivating ingredients. A decision that is truly worth making is a joyous decision to make.

So perhaps there is a way to be in line with divine will, without fear being a part of the formula.





1796 wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 2:05pm:

recoverer wrote on Dec 14th, 2015 at 4:20pm: ... It could be that some people are resistant to the idea of Jesus because they are resistant to authority. That part of their free will resists. Perhaps there is a way to think of divine authority that isn't repressive and limiting. How is the Jesus concept repressive and limiting?

In an earlier post on this thread 1796 claimed that everyone in the westernized world is somehow Christianized and has a cross on their forehead and will be judged by it. The trouble with these posts is that they are complicated and difficult to understand. As far as I can tell, going by the bible that so many insist is the gold standard of truth, Jesus didn't speak to people this way. His message was simple.

Also, people are so fixated on the idea that Jesus is the only person, the best person, the only one who ever did anything so heroic and sublime, the best teacher and communicator ever, etc. etc. etc. To me it is obsessive. As if there was never another human being who has been at his level of spiritual development.

How do any of you know? Humble people are...humble. They don't show off their good deeds, thoughts or words everywhere they go.

Also, women everywhere are encouraged to make themselves less seen, heard and understood by many religious leaders. This, in itself, is an obstacle to progress in our societies.

Nevertheless, an interesting discussion.

recoverer wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 2:47pm:

It's repressive if presented in a "you better believe or else" way.  There is no way a person/soul can respond in a wholehearted way if fear is one of the motivating ingredients. A decision that is truly worth making is a joyous decision to make. So perhaps there is a way to be in line with divine will, without fear being a part of the formula. 1796 wrote on Dec 15th, 2015 at 2:05pm: recoverer wrote on Dec 14th, 2015 at 4:20pm: ... It could be that some people are resistant to the idea of Jesus because they are resistant to authority. That part of their free will resists. Perhaps there is a way to think of divine authority that isn't repressive and limiting. How is the Jesus concept repressive and limiting?

"you better believe or else" - or else what?

Who says that? and what's the threat you are implying?


"There is no way a person/soul can respond in a wholehearted way if fear is one of the motivating ingredients."

I don't have an aversion to fear. It is a natural realisation of possible detriment, and a natural energiser and motivator.

Many of my times of best decisions and progress were done in fear.

Do you mean the fear that motivates us to go to work and earn money so we don't end up homeless? and doing a good job so we don't get the sack? taking precautions in dangerous situations so we don't get injured or injure others? driving on the right side of the road so we don't have a head on collision? treating our family well so we don't lose their respect?


By the way, you frequently talk in insinuations and inferences, without specifics, you don't cite references or quotes, you imply things without saying them outright, and dispute positions that others don't hold as if they do hold them.

Look at your posts on this thread for several examples. Look across other threads and see more examples. All of which is fine. Its your problem, no one else's.   

1796:

Regarding insinuations, somewhere on this thread I had in mind how you don't seem to be tolerant towards liberals and atheists. My reason for concluding this isn't based on what you said on this thread alone, but also elsewhere. You said things that makes it seem as if you don't think much of such people. I'm not going to search around for such statements. Anybody who has read your posts for a while probably knows about such statements.

Regarding "you better believe or else" some fundamentalists basically say that you better believe as they do or you'll end up in hell for all of eternity. Your statement "But too bad for them, like or not, every western soul is Christianised and carries in its heart and on its forehead the cross of Christ. And will be judged by it" reminded me of such a way of thinking.

It seems to me that you are way off when you when you minimize how much some non-Christians live according to love. I know of lots of people who have demonstrated true kindness towards others without thinking of themselves as Christians. I wouldn't be surprised to find that you think poorly of them in order to feel better about yourself.

If you want some frank talk, I wish that a person who refers to Christ as much as you do would have more of a Christ like attitude towards people who believe differently than you. 

People who speak in a fundamentalist way sometimes do more to turn people away from Christ rather than towards him.

Do you really believe that Jesus views atheists, new agers and liberals in the same way that you seem to do so?

That sort of talk is what I mean. You're being an idiot.

If it is idiotic to take exception to when you speak of atheists, liberals etcetera as you have done on more than one thread, then so be it.

I believe it is quite insulting for you to speak as if there is nothing genuine about their love.


1796 wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 8:07pm:

That sort of talk is what I mean. You're being an idiot.

I don't really like hearing anyone called an idiot on this forum. But, that's just me, I guess. I consider name-calling abusive. It is not harmless fun, even if a person can simply choose to ignore it and walk away. I'm speaking from personal experience.

Also, regarding the appreciation of fear that 1796 expressed. Perhaps it is a good and helpful advantage for us in certain circumstances, but in general it is toxic to the body and can cause people to overreact to situations that could be handled more calmly.

I think it is okay for us to express opinions here without making it a contest about who is right. Sometimes people just comment on posts as a way of clarifying their own thoughts, and it's not personal until people make it that way.

Seagull, you talk like you are scared of having unpleasant emotions.

That's your opinion. Enjoy your opinion if you like it.

Desire for a more peaceful world does is not fear.

I haven't been on the board much of late.  It is a shame that 1796 descends into name calling and the like.  One thing any reader gets from Albert's posts is his sincerity.  If you disagree with him, you can say as much without disparaging him.

I too am not too happy with those who are a fan of JC and then present mandatory hoops to jump through and raise the fear of damnation if he isn't acknowledged in a certain way.  The gospels were about love; love of God (what is good and what is true) and of one's fellow man.  There is no blueprint for how one must worship God.  JC may have been the light and the way, but I believe as Albert stated that good loving people, who act without ego, and show love for others and to God are fulfilling the spirit of the gospels whether they go to church regularly or invoke JC by name.  JC wasn't big on names in the gospels as I recall, calling himself the son of man, etc.  In my opinion anyone who dismisses good hearted non-christians as being damned is completely missing the point of the good book.  But I won't call anyone an idiot for disagreeing with me.

M

Doc, thank you for the positive words about me.


DocM wrote on Dec 29^th, 2015 at 1:03am:

I haven't been on the board much of late.  It is a shame that 1796 descends into name calling and the like.  One thing any reader gets from Albert's posts is his sincerity.  If you disagree with him, you can say as much without disparaging him. I too am not too happy with those who are a fan of JC and then present mandatory hoops to jump through and raise the fear of damnation if he isn't acknowledged in a certain way.  The gospels were about love; love of God (what is good and what is true) and of one's fellow man.  There is no blueprint for how one must worship God.  JC may have been the light and the way, but I believe as Albert stated that good loving people, who act without ego, and show love for others and to God are fulfilling the spirit of the gospels whether they go to church regularly or invoke JC by name.  JC wasn't big on names in the gospels as I recall, calling himself the son of man, etc.  In my opinion anyone who dismisses good hearted non-christians as being damned is completely missing the point of the good book.  But I won't call anyone an idiot for disagreeing with me. M

Seagull:

Thank you for speaking up about the idiot part.


seagull wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

I don't really like hearing anyone called an idiot on this forum. But, that's just me, I guess. I consider name-calling abusive. It is not harmless fun, even if a person can simply choose to ignore it and walk away. I'm speaking from personal experience. Also, regarding the appreciation of fear that 1796 expressed. Perhaps it is a good and helpful advantage for us in certain circumstances, but in general it is toxic to the body and can cause people to overreact to situations that could be handled more calmly. I think it is okay for us to express opinions here without making it a contest about who is right. Sometimes people just comment on posts as a way of clarifying their own thoughts, and it's not personal until people make it that way.

Well said to all. Am not a believer in being judged in the afterlife like I used to be.

The essence of us knows us the best and is our judge.

Happy New year :)

Speaking of Yeshua (aka "Jesus")
Quote:

As if there was never another human being who has been at his level of spiritual development.

    There have been periods in the far, far past, like Monroe saw and Cayce talked about, when incarnate beings here were, collectively speaking, much, much more spiritually intune and much closer the Yeshua like level of full awareness/livingness of PUL. 

   But those were collective cycles.  We're coming up to and in preparation for another one. 

    However, during a period when humanity, in a collective sense, was very stuck, like when he incarnated in Palestine some 2000 years ago... 

   There has not been one like him before or since, even in his own Disk history, though Yosef of the Bible and of his Disk was relatively close in some ways.

   He was perfectly balanced, perfectly attuned to Source and to PUL. He was Emmanuel, the Creative Spirit amongst us, like God in the flesh.  The degree of strength, will, and application of self to achieve that during such a collectively slow vibratory cycle was and is beyond phenomenal.  It's like being born into a physically blind species and somehow developing not just sight, but razor sharp, far range Eagle vision.

  There have been many teachers since him, that have claimed similar for themselves or others claimed about them, but none yet have lived up to that standard.  Buddha came relatively close, but did not attain to the same fullness and perfectness of consciousness and attunement to PUL. 
 
    Expanded guidance would confirm this for you, as it has for me, or as it relayed through other sources like Cayce or McKnight, if you would let it  For example, Mcknight while working with Monroe during their sessions, her guidance said that Yeshua was the highest vibratory being to have incarnated here. 

    Does it mean that other humans cannot follow the path that he tread?  Course not, and he hopes and wishes with every desire in his heart, that other humans will fully follow in his footsteps. He beckons many of us daily and moment by moment to please want to choose to do so.

    Some few may in the nearish future.  Many will in the further future during one of those more collectively intune cycles as mentioned earlier. 

   But his achievement and the conditions he did same in, were in many ways, a singular and unique event in humanity. 

  However, there are entire species or groups out there, that are collectively like him.  (most of these have already "winked out" and are beyond the "aperture" as Monroe perceived and described it).  There are many like him that exist in and consciously operate from the core of Source and likewise are Creator beings whom work completely in harmony with the Source/prime-original Creator. 

  But, how many of these have incarnated here as human?  Not many that i can tell or have ascertained.  Some were human, that later attained to that level, but those like him, who were at that level and then chose to be human? 

    So consider it obsession or the like, but truth is truth, and this self as long been obsessed with truth and only truth.  And truth lived, will eventually lead to ultimate truths, and set one free.

    The closer the individual comes to him in their own consciousness and livingness, via the law of like attracts, begets, and resonates with like, the more clearly they will perceive and be attracted to him in a non limiting, non denominational, but more universal and spiritual sense. 

    

Justin, so what you are saying is basically that you think Jesus is awesome. How does one get to or closer to the level of their teacher?

You have an interesting concept on Jesus, Justin. The way the Bible presents Him, and the way He presents Himself, is different though, at least to me. It pretty much reads the way mainstream Christianity takes it - humanity is lost because of sin and condemned to hell, a Saviour was prophesied to the jews, Jesus was born in a virgin birth and said He was the Messiah and the Son of God, He was crucified to atone for our sin, He resurrected, went back to Heaven and is coming again - someday - and will send those who haven't claimed His blood straight to hell.

So how does the actual Bible narrative fit in with your concept? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just don't get it. Is there such a thing as "sin"? Are we lost - going to hell? Why did Jesus die? Did He resurrect? Is He coming again to judge the world? Why all the talk of His "church" and telling the disciples to go and spread the Gospel?

Seth, of "Seth Speaks" fame, has some pretty interesting stuff, that is until he talks about Jesus. Then he goes all wacko. This kind of thing baffles me.

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/jesus/seth.htm

Thanks for your concern, Justin. Perhaps you will agree that the behavior in the following article is obsessive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3509176/Nailed-cross-Bloodied-Filipino-sign-painter-enacts-crucifixion-Jesus-30th-time-pray-peace-end-Islamic-extremism-better-job.html

I am perfectly okay with the truth I know.

Hi Doodad,

   I figure the best way to understand what Yeshua is all about, is by consistent attuning (deep meditation, prayer, asking for dream guidance, living/choosing PUL type love etc) to that level of guidance that is one with him, with PUL, and is one with only that which is creative-constructive in essence.

     A more limited way would be to look at a wide cross section of sources which contain verification in various areas and which practically and holistically, appear more credible than not.  See where these match on this teacher, use a combo of feeling intuition and holistic logic to discern what is more true or less true.

    I've used both methods in regards to Yeshua. Guidance has confirmed some aspects of info that i've seen from sources i find more credible (i don't find Jane Roberts credible in general, let alone about Yeshua).

  While Cayce's work is not free of error or deflection, it is one of the most holistically accurate about Yeshua that i've come across.  It is also one of the most vast and verified psychic sources in general that i've looked at.

    I've also come to consider some folks connected to Bob Monroe and TMI to be more credible than not.

   But while other people's info can be interesting and at times inspiring, it's always good to check it against going within and/or intuition.

   As far as modern day Christianity as a religion--sadly, since the Romans got a hold of it, it's gone downhill increasingly.  In some ways, religious Christianity could be considered "anti Christ".  It has a lot of distortions, and i don't consider it a particularly credible source of info.
When i've read the NT, i've come to rather different conclusions than many fundamentalist types. 

  Sin?  Just temporary spiritual error and limited/false belief systems/perception imo. Another term for sin might be negative karma, and another for that might be lack of attunement to PUL.



   

    

   I should add that context is everything. Consider that Yeshua was speaking to a simple and in many ways ignorant people.  He had to keep things simple, dramatic, and archetypal to keep their attention and have them understand aspects of what he was saying. 

    If Yeshua came among us today, it's likely he would speak of things and himself in rather different terms.   

    As briefly touched upon, Cayce's guidance and work talks a lot about Yeshua, both in a NT way, and in a very metaphysical and far reaching way (even as to his other lives). 

   Like Albert's guidance confirmed for him, Cayce's guidance communicated that the NT is more or less true in the main about his life.  They did say on occasion that some little detail here or there was off or commonly misinterpreted, but confirmed time and time again that the main events as described by all the gospel writers happened. 

  Consistently though, they put the most focus on Yeshua's love, and his constant attitude of service and seeking to be led by forces greater than himself.  In some ways, you could say that daily, he experienced a crucifixion of self, in that he learned how to live for others and the greater good of the Whole, rather than living for his selfish, animal-body connected, personality self--which he still had some until the resurrection--the influence of the body-physical.  This part of us is very survival and self oriented. 

  Some, including this self, say that the physical is partially the result of a group of Disks using their freewill in limited and erring ways while in another's nonphysical creation, and they eventually changed the patterns enough, and became stuck in their own creations, beliefs, and perceptions to have temporarily manifested what we call and experience as the physical today. 

   But it's important to note that many non stuck, and very PUL attuned consciousnesses have been involved in the process too since day one, including the Co-Creator who created the Soul patterns that are within and behind aspects of the physical (especially as to nature and non man made structures). Btw, guess who that Co-Creator was/is? 

  Many of these helper types have come into this stuck belief system territory, or have sought to modify it in other ways.  It has eventually become a "learning"  and reawakening place where consequence through cause and effect can be experienced. 

  In a limited sense, you could say there was a fall of sorts, but it's all being retrieved on multiple levels.  Considering the gift of freewill, or more specifically, the ability and choice to choose that which is different than our Sourceness, it was possible and maybe even likely that a percentage of individualized consciousnesses would get stuck for a time. 

  In some ways, it's less of a big deal than fundamentalist Christians tend to make it.  In other ways it is a big deal, especially the more connected and consciously one you become with the Whole--because then you start to feel and experience other's suffering, and it's pretty affecting when you're wide open like that.  You naturally want to help the retrieval process in a way that respects freewill at the same time. 

   According to Cayce's guidance, and yes those interested should check this, Yeshua is connected to an individualized Disk or "Spirit" that is none other than the Co-Creator who was responsible for the original, nonphysical patterns of consciousness that the physical eventually became reflected or refracted off of.  They also say that he in some form or another has been involved with the retrieval process since he realized the problems and suffering going on.

   Originally, he would just manifest himself a body form and try to interact with those stuck here.  But, it was not as successful as he hoped.  So he decided to let himself get completely embroiled in the process, and started to become born of a woman and living various lives as fully human. 

  For a consciousness that was previously fully One with Source and PUL, and completely wide open, this was not an easy or light thing to get into. All this would be such a loud, cacophony of noise and pain to such a one, and there was the possibility of self getting overly stuck to from the influence of those around you.

   Interestingly, in Bob Monroe's first biography, he relays that he learned that there was an individualized consciousness which is responsible for creating the patterns behind/within the physical.  A "Creator" being if you will. 

  Also interestingly, it seems that eventually Monroe became quite interested in this Jesus character despite his earlier dislike of religion and religiousness. 
Bob seems to have left clues as to the identity of He/She, the most mature, evolved human living in his space-time reference that he asked about and was led to. 

Justin, I get that you like to talk about your teacher, but have you changed after attuning to him? Practically, what does it mean to attune to Jesus?

There are some who say that there is no "mastermind" behind it all. 

"Instead of a "God" masterminding the whole thing and giving us the straight dope, as it were, we find higher-level beings that themselves do not fully understand the nature of Reality and who are limited in their ability to help us."

One of the major errors and sources of confusion in various spiritual modalities that depend upon spirit communication is the assumption that angels and spirits are universally enlightened simply due to the fact that they are in the spiritual world rather than the physical world.

"And yet, it seems clear enough that the world of spiritual beings contains the whole gamut from very enlightened to very much shrouded in mist and illusion, and even outright falsity and evil. Therefore the messages that come through are also a mixture of enlightenment, illusion, and falsity. Yet those who receive them commonly believe they are true because they come from a spiritual origin. Hence the great confusion of conflicting ideas and beliefs about higher reality, all based on spiritual sources."

from http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2014/11/guest-post-thinking-it-in-the-mansion-of-many-apartments.html#comments

Frank Kepple writes; "Instead of what Monroe and company call Pure Unconditional Love - The Prime Energy of the universe, I think it is more correct to call this energy 'Pure Subjective Energy', the source of which, is Focus 4 of consciousness. I do not subscribe to the 'Unconditional Love' idea as it stems from a more poetic description of the underlying facts of the matter, which are all I am interested in. Pure Unconditional Love is more the effect that Pure Subjective Energy has on us when we encounter it, rather than the cause. The cause is Pure Subjective Energy. I should make very clear at this juncture, that many pieces of the Focus 4 jigsaw have yet to fall into place for me. In order to fill in the blanks, as it were, I agree there is the temptation to begin stretching the narrative. It would be a handy release if I did offer myself a degree of poetic license. But I am resisting this temptation entirely in favour of following a strictly scientific approach. Monroe (unfortunately in my view) did occasionally display a love for poetic metaphor and I am determined not to make that mistake.

However, the energy essences that hold Focus 4 as their Primary Focus are not themselves responsible for the radiation of this Pure Subjective Energy, nor are they the source of this energy. They each are an energetic personality essence and, as such, they are a focus of this energy, just as we all are. The only real difference being between us and them, so to speak, is the Primary Focus we choose to hold.

I have tried to find out where this Pure Subjective Energy comes from but no one appears to know. We obviously all evolved from it. Somehow this subjective energy became focused and developed into a kind of primary energetic personality essence and this is, I believe, what all the old mystical works are objectifying and calling 'god'. Now this primary energetic personality essence somehow began to develop into many, many individual focuses that somehow became us, and all we have created. But as to how it all began, originally - I don’t mean how the physical universe began - but how ALL of it began, I simply do not know. I think it never did begin. I think the subjective side of things have just always been, which is a pretty mind-blowing concept."

from: http://astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

"And yet, it seems clear enough that the world of spiritual beings contains the whole gamut from very enlightened to very much shrouded in mist and illusion, and even outright falsity and evil. Therefore the messages that come through are also a mixture of enlightenment, illusion, and falsity. Yet those who receive them commonly believe they are true because they come from a spiritual origin. Hence the great confusion of conflicting ideas and beliefs about higher reality, all based on spiritual sources."

Yes.  Which is precisely why I caution others not to venture into the afterlife as if it were some kind of parlor game.  Whether its playing around with a ouija board or attempting to accomplish a "retrieval", the danger is there. 

We wouldn't go walking around at midnight in a bad part of town and yet we seem to think it's perfectly ok and safe to project our consciousness into a realm about which we know next to nothing.  I'm afraid "sending pul" to an evil entity  would do about as much good as it would to a radical Islamic  terrorist. PUL is a state of being, not a can of beans. 

R

I agree with you, Rondele...........and yet we all will eventually end up in this place about which we know next to nothing.

What to do, what to do?

:)

Actually we were all born into an unknown world, leaving the warmth and comfort of our mother's womb was no doubt pretty traumatic!

R

wrote on Mar 26^th, 2016 at 12:11pm:

Justin, I get that you like to talk about your teacher, but have you changed after attuning to him? Practically, what does it mean to attune to Jesus?

  More obviously and materially speaking, after dedicating my life to try to live in the manner that he did, virtually everything in my life changed for the positive though i've still gone through testing and stressful periods (which i view as a necessity to strengthen and refine self towards that of pure Christ Consciousness aka full and constant attuenment to PUL). 

   Most noticeably, i went from a fairly long term and consistent deep, suicidal depressive state, to being one of the most consistently at peace and joyous people i know despite having a lack of material abundance by American standards and going through intense testing periods. 

  Not to say that since then i don't ever experience sadness, self pity, loneliness, anger, or imbalance, because i still sometimes do, but it's nothing like the constant deep selfish suffering and darkness i use to experience. The selfishly sourced suffering that i sometimes experience now tends to be much more milder and briefer.   

  I don't think this was the only factor, but it has and does play a major part.  Diet and other health lifestyle changes were a part, as well as attunment to and asking for help from expanded guidance in general.  As far as expanded guidance goes though, i've come to see Yeshua as the prime director or "Guide of guides" in this system of consciousness that centers around the physical Earth.  Sort of akin to Tom Campbell's concept of "Big Cheese" or Bruce Moen's concept of the Planning Intelligence, though the latter would also involve the entire part of his Disk that is connected to this system of consciousness (which is represented by our Solar system).

  Also, much like Albert has said, since becoming involved with Yeshua in a conscious way in this life, i've come to note that my heart has opened up a lot more, and gradually my awareness is opening up more though right now self is in a bit of a denser or down phase cycle (i find that a common pattern among humans, is going through cycles that akin to a sine wave, go up and down, with gradually higher peaks and gradually lower declines as a tendency).   

  But as my awareness has opened up, i've learned that my Disk has long been connected to his Disk in various ways and capacity.  I've learned that his original Disk form, co-created my disk as a retriever type, and that's been my overall pattern though we've strayed a bit here and there. 

  Others, like his Disk itself, were created directly by the Source or original, first Creator if you will.  Some of these went far, far astray, and that's part of why when the Christ Disk remerged with Source, it immediately began to create some Disks in it's likeness, with Love as a strong base, with the hopes that these would help in the retrieval process of these lost ones. 

    Yes, it does sound similar in some ways to some of what Bruce wrote about Curiosity's Father etc, though Bruce doesn't identify that first returned Disk. (Though his partner Denise did somewhat when she saw Christ being related to the Planning Intelligence).

  When things started to get really crazy and imbalanced on Earth way back when, the Christ Disk decided to recruit a bunch of helper type Disks in an effort and in a plan of major retrieval here.  Few of us were fully at "his" level, many of us would be considered, as compared to humans, more free and aware "ET's", as most of our projections and forms till then, were in other systems more expanded than this system.  But most of us were not "Co Creator" beings like him.

  He had other siblings or children more fully like himself help too, but in a more distant and detached way, rather than incarnating directly here, acting as nonphysical guides, etc.  These became more like the Elders on the Councils that over saw the formulation of new Earth life incarnations/plans, assignments of guides, etc. 

   While i'm not originally of or yet in the latter category just talked about, my Disk and this individualized self has long been in service to his Disk and humanity in various capacities. 

   That Disk, which for labeling purposes i call the Christ Disk, has helped my Disk and* many times since we've existed.  While he hasn't ever, nor ever sought to do the work for me, he has provided a guiding light oft, a much needed and helpful light at times that allowed self to reorient self back to the path of direct growth.  He has provided the beaten path through the dense jungle that is easier to follow.

    I will always be eternally grateful to my little parent, our Elder sibling, even when i eventually become fully like him and become involved in the direct creation of new and unique systems and new/unique Disks to grow and mature in them. 

  No truer and more consistent friend have i, or any of us, ever had. 

   But i don't "worship" him, or even necessarily bow down to him, as he doesn't want either, and tells me (and all those that would listen) that what he is and has done, i and everyone else has the potential for also, and ultimately it's our destiny that we can only delay and distract ourselves from. 

  I'm so focused on him and his pattern, because i so desire to become fully like him, and what we focus most on, surely influences our habits, tendencies, and the direction of our path much more than that which we choose to, or unconsciously, ignore. Since i know that a non denominational, non limited focus on him can helps others like i've been helped, is why i recommend and try to bring conscious awareness to him at times.

  I do think that sometimes i probably over do it in communication with others, and may even at times push people away from him, in a much more mild, but still overly zealous fashion as some fundamentalists.  Perfect Yin-Yang balance is hard to achieve in general, and especially when working through a human body (and especially male human body with our stronger average tendencies towards aggressiveness and intellectual focus).  I would rather err slightly on the side of a bit over Yang though, than over Yin and passive.

  Part of the reason why Albert and i "vibe" with each other, is because we have a similar origin, history, and pattern in general and in relation to that Disk we both have come to love as friend/lover/parent/sibling all in one.

And i suspect very strongly that both our Disks had lifetimes/selves there with Yeshua when he was publicly teaching and saw first hand the majesty, beauty, and power of a full and completed graduate in human form. 

  Bob/Bruce's Disk, is a bit of a newer comer to the Christ Disk's party and plan, and perhaps because of that and less incarnations and experience with It, while there has been strong interest and there is strong respect for that one, there is not quite the intense, consistent focus.

We all are so much more influenced by our past, both cosmically/long term and in this shorter focus (especially childhood), than we tend to be consciously aware of. 

 

Doodad, that Frank Kepple has strongly recommended a source i find rather non credible, Jane Roberts, makes me wonder about his discriminative abilities. There is much that could be said about Jane Roberts, and much as been said about her here, and to some extent i would be beating a dead horse.

  To briefly sum it up, a closer look at her life will reveal a New York socialite type whom really wanted to get well known for something (fame of some sort), first it was science fiction writing, but that didn't work out so well.  Then it turned to psychism/mediumship, of which she approached originally through a Ouija board and how she supposedly met Seth. 

   After the Seth gig got a little tired, she focused on channeling famous people. 

   What were her deeper motivations and intentions?  This means almost everything to a spiritual seeker and what they attune to or not. 

  Edgar Cayce on the other hand, had to be dragged, kicking and screaming to what he viewed as a ridiculous profession of psychic, but he was so concerned with service that he was willing to go through quite a bit, and went through quite a bit to be of service in a time and place that was very close minded to all that.  He never really tried to profit off it personally, except for a brief period of oil chasing to raise money for a holistic hospital that he envisioned could treat and help people for free or as cheap as was materially possible.   

  He was not attached to fame, wealth, and all the things that Jane Roberts seemed so concerned with.  His work has numerous verifications in connection with it.  As far as i can tell, Jane Roberts had very little, if any, concrete verifications that could be checked in a material world, hard evidence kind of way.  That doesn't mean that she didn't have a little psychism and very occasionally may have picked up something or other---pretty much everyone does from time to time, even those that don't believe in intuition and psychism. 

 
  As far as Kepple goes, why would i go with his subjective interpretations when i've done my own exploring and attuning to little and big guidance (what he might call F4 level), and for a number of years?   

   I'm sure like most of us, Frank gets some things fairly accurately, and some things not so. 

  For me to put my trust in another human, takes quite a bit of verification and repeated "good fruits" seen.  I can count on my hand the number of outer sources that i see has more accurate, holistically helpful, and credible than not, having looked at and tuned into many.   

  Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, Edgar Cayce, Rosalind McKnight, and Tom Campbell are some of the very few that come to mind, but none of these had or have the whole pie either.  I would also add my friend Albert (Recoverer) to that list, though he is less well known or respected in a worldly way.   We've had some experiences and verification with each other, and because i've received very clear messages from expanded guidance about him, is part of why i trust and listen to him more than most.

   Basically, when it comes to other people as sources of info, i more closely pay attention to the ones that guidance has nudged me in the direction of or given me messages about.  All those on that list mentioned above fall under one or both of those conditions. 

That doesn't mean that there aren't other good and credible sources out there, i don't doubt that there are, but i'm a pragmatist above all else, and as my intuition has sharpened and increased, so hasn't my b.s. detector and it's easier to spot the less PUL attuned sources.

  And ultimately, it's all about attunment to PUL.  The degree of consistent attunement to same, is what dictates our spiritual development and maturity, and since Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like as a fundamental Law and reaction that runs through all dimensions/focuses, that which we call "perception" follows "beingness", which again is all about attunement or lack of same to PUL. 

  Greater and more consistent attunement to PUL will eventually equal greater depth, clarity, accuracy and balance of perception.  This is why i always consider the source more deeply and holistically when looking at outer sources especially psychically and spiritually.

   

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2016 at 1:08am:

Justin, so what you are saying is basically that you think Jesus is awesome. How does one get to or closer to the level of their teacher?

Jesus is not awesome Jesus is divine God personified.

Awesome is an attribute you might use for a great athlete like Usain Bolt, not an Infinite Eternal being?

What is this fabricated idea of Christ consciousness, it is nonsense Jesus is the Supreme Being, sovereign and the way to speak to him is through respectful prayer, not access his perfect mind Holy Mind, with all the filth that our human mortal minds are filled to the brim with.

Our darkness cannot enter into His Light, it is up to him and Him alone to enter our darkness with His light and love.

Speaking of "Jesus", Alan referred to him as, "Infinite Eternal being." 

  Alan, aren't we all infinite, eternal beings?  While i have great love and respect for the one you call "Jesus", at the same time, i know and understand that in some core, fundamental ways he is no different than any of us.

   In some ways, he is just another child of the first and original Creator, like we all are. 

  The temporary difference comes in that he has had a pattern since he was created, of using his freewill in more wise and constructive ways than most, and in a consistent sense. 

  He was the first to consciously re-merge with God, "his Father" as he sometimes called God.  In doing so, he became a full companion and Co-Creator with God.  Many of our Spirits and their creation are the result of his working with the Creator.  You could say his is the Disk, that contains many of our Disks.  In that sense, he is many of our's "Source", but he is not The Source.

  As he has told us, and i will repeat, what he is and has become, we are and will eventually become too. But first, we must live and choose in a similar manner as him.  We have to attune to Love to the degree that he did before this world was created and did when he came into the world. 

    To call Jesus God, is in direct contradiction to what he himself taught and talked about.  He always referred to God as his "Father" (Abba), and spoke as if they were unique, individual, but very connected beings.  "I am One with the Abba" etc. 

  That is our destiny and heritage too.  To become one with the Creator. 

While they don't incarnate into the physical reality as humans born of women, there are others like Jesus out there.  Some of them serve as the Elders that many have perceived, whom we go before during our life reviews when we die. 

   Others, have created other Universes and Spirits/Disks to grow and evolve within those Universes/Multi-verses that are outside the boundaries of this one that we are in. 

   You over put him on a pedestal Alan and he doesn't want that.  To some extent, he has mildly chided me for putting him over much on a pedestal and i don't even go the fundamentalist route that you do.

   This is why the probable future and the development of the so called 2nd coming (he never really left, except briefly for those 2/3 days), it's planned that a few other individuals would attain to a similar degree of attunement to PUL while incarnated and also demonstrate that attunement materially in unmistakable ways to others (what some call "miracles"). 

  Only after these individuals have come forth and exampled similar to how he did 2000 years ago, will he come forth publicly again, and he will do so to tell the world that these individuals are the fruition of the promise he gave to us 2000 years ago, that if we lived and chose in the same manner as him, that we would become like him and do even greater works than he had when he was previously around publicly.

  This was not a promise given lightly Alan, but he was fully aware of the probable future(s) even 2000 years from his time, and knew some of his friends/co-workers would incarnate in our times to help in his and his Father's plan of retrieving humanity. 

wrote on Apr 9^th, 2016 at 10:59am:

Speaking of "Jesus", Alan referred to him as, "Infinite Eternal being."    Alan, aren't we all infinite, eternal beings?  While i have great love and respect for the one you call "Jesus", at the same time, i know and understand that in some core, fundamental ways he is no different than any of us.    In some ways, he is just another child of the first and original Creator, like we all are.    The temporary difference comes in that he has had a pattern since he was created, of using his freewill in more wise and constructive ways than most, and in a consistent sense.    He was the first to consciously re-merge with God, "his Father" as he sometimes called God.  In doing so, he became a full companion and Co-Creator with God.  Many of our Spirits and their creation are the result of his working with the Creator.  You could say his is the Disk, that contains many of our Disks.  In that sense, he is many of our's "Source", but he is not The Source.   As he has told us, and i will repeat, what he is and has become, we are and will eventually become too. But first, we must live and choose in a similar manner as him.  We have to attune to Love to the degree that he did before this world was created and did when he came into the world.      To call Jesus God, is in direct contradiction to what he himself taught and talked about.  He always referred to God as his "Father" (Abba), and spoke as if they were unique, individual, but very connected beings.  "I am One with the Abba" etc.    That is our destiny and heritage too.  To become one with the Creator.  While they don't incarnate into the physical reality as humans born of women, there are others like Jesus out there.  Some of them serve as the Elders that many have perceived, whom we go before during our life reviews when we die.     Others, have created other Universes and Spirits/Disks to grow and evolve within those Universes/Multi-verses that are outside the boundaries of this one that we are in.     You over put him on a pedestal Alan and he doesn't want that.  To some extent, he has mildly chided me for putting him over much on a pedestal and i don't even go the fundamentalist route that you do.    This is why the probable future and the development of the so called 2nd coming (he never really left, except briefly for those 2/3 days), it's planned that a few other individuals would attain to a similar degree of attunement to PUL while incarnated and also demonstrate that attunement materially in unmistakable ways to others (what some call "miracles").    Only after these individuals have come forth and exampled similar to how he did 2000 years ago, will he come forth publicly again, and he will do so to tell the world that these individuals are the fruition of the promise he gave to us 2000 years ago, that if we lived and chose in the same manner as him, that we would become like him and do even greater works than he had when he was previously around publicly.   This was not a promise given lightly Alan, but he was fully aware of the probable future(s) even 2000 years from his time, and knew some of his friends/co-workers would incarnate in our times to help in his and his Father's plan of retrieving humanity.

No! we are not Infinite only Almighty God is Infinite, Sovereign, Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent.

We are not infinite and will never have those attributes that belong to Almighty God and Almighty God alone.

Where do you get that idea, not everyone will be at one with God only those that love and obey him.?

And they will not become Almighty God a statement like that is blaspheme.

They will become dwellers in the Kingdom of under his care and God will teach them knowledge, truth, and all mysteries will be revealed.

God is not some huge ocean of consciousness, God is a separate Being with his own unique identity.

And we are not just little drops of consciousness that finally get absorbed by the great god ocean nonsense.

We remain who we are, for all eternity as children of God.

Almighty God is our heavenly Father get it??

Alan,

Many references in the new testament mention that God is within each of us.  "The kingdom of God is within you."  JC, also in the NT tells his disciples that they may become like him, and do what he can do (miracles, etc.). 

In fact, many, myself included feel that it is man and his/her ego which artificially separates and distances himself from God.  This does not mean that each human being is all powerful; we obviously know this. 

We are not separate from the rest of the universe.  This is our insanity, while in a physical body, and it is the source for most of the suffering and misery we see. 


M

DocM wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 12:00pm:

Alan, Many references in the new testament mention that God is within each of us.  "The kingdom of God is within you."  JC, also in the NT tells his disciples that they may become like him, and do what he can do (miracles, etc.).  In fact, many, myself included feel that it is man and his/her ego which artificially separates and distances himself from God.  This does not mean that each human being is all powerful; we obviously know this.  We are not separate from the rest of the universe.  This is our insanity, while in a physical body, and it is the source for most of the suffering and misery we see.  M

I know this!! but are you trying to convince me that the likes of an evil, depraved, despotic reprobate like Hitler had/has the Kingdom of God within him?


The real meaning of having the Kingdom of God within you is not that you are filled with some all-embracing loving god consciousness, but because of our own love and obedience to Him after which, he imparts, his protection and love within our inner beings

You are not Almighty God, you never were, you are not now and you never will be God, you are a finite being who might receive immortality if you love and obey Almighty God.

It is conditional, not everyone is going to receive that reward especially not the likes of Hitler who will be tormented day and night forever and forever.

Suffering is a part of life and a result of God giving us unworthy humans a free will, which we have abused
over and over again since time began.

God is not some sort of a grey-haired all forgiving Santa, although Gods prime attribute is Love, God said vengeance is mine I will recompense (Punish).

It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

God is a consuming fire.

Make God into any image or attribute you would like him to have, but that will not alter even one bit who Almighty God really is and his own and absolute unique identify in all existence.

Almighty God is the only Infinite Being, and will remain the only Infinite Being for all Eternity.

Unlike Almighty God, are and we will always remain finite beings

I know you are Jewish my late mother was Jewish but she could actually bring herself to say Jesus Christ instead of you irritating JC WHO COULD BE ANYONE

Maybe Julie Cousins?

Are you so frightened being that being Jesus will damn, you in some way of the other if you actually write out the full name of the most influence Jew ever to walk the earth not JC Jesus Christ Please?

If you do not like the Christ bit, just say Jesus!

Below is a poem I wrote the other day, which reveals how I returned to health after many years in the darkness of desolation and despair?

I felt the love of God today,
For the first time since I walked away.
I've felt guilt and shame for so many years,
But the Gods Love freed me of that of my many fears.

I cried to him and confessed my sin,
I opened the door of my inner heart and let him in.
Then God greeted me with a smile,
He held out his arms and said, "It's been awhile."

He said, "My son, it is now at last going to be alright?.
No longer will  your sleep at night at by full of fright
All those times when you were full of fear,
It was I who pulled you through;
Because my son, I have always been very near."

God sweetly said, "I have loved you since the beginning of your dark night,
And my love for you has made you free from your terrible blight
My son, I am always there,
All you have to do is come to me in prayer."

'God is not some sort of a grey-haired all forgiving Santa, although Gods prime attribute is Love, God said vengeance is mine I will recompense (Punish).

It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

God is a consuming fire'.


Alan- can I ask; where did you get your ideas about the true nature of God from? Is this something you read somewhere or something you worked out on your own?

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 1:40am:

'God is not some sort of a grey-haired all forgiving Santa, although Gods prime attribute is Love, God said vengeance is mine I will recompense (Punish). It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. God is a consuming fire'. Alan- can I ask; where did you get your ideas about the true nature of God from? Is this something you read somewhere or something you worked out on your own?

It comes directly from the Bible, which you should read and that is the place you will find the absolute truth.

Jesus said 'I am the Way the Truth and the Life"

Quote:

It is conditional, not everyone is going to receive that reward especially not the likes of Hitler who will be tormented day and night forever and forever.

Alan, is it correct to say that there are strict rules to follow and no sloth (not the animal, or maybe, we will see) is tolerated? Cowards, unbelievers, murderers, the immoral, those who practice withcraft, idolators and all liars - their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. But with all the different translations available, cowards/the cowardly is replaced in some translations by fearful. You can then claim that you were no coward, merely god-fearing, but you are bamboozled by translation and in the sulfur you go.

Where in the bible does it say that the likes of Hitler will be tormented day and night forever and ever?

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 5:49am:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:40am: 'God is not some sort of a grey-haired all forgiving Santa, although Gods prime attribute is Love, God said vengeance is mine I will recompense (Punish). It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. God is a consuming fire'. Alan- can I ask; where did you get your ideas about the true nature of God from? Is this something you read somewhere or something you worked out on your own? It comes directly from the Bible, which you should read and that is the place you will find the absolute truth. Jesus said 'I am the Way the Truth and the Life"

I have read the bible Alan, I read it cover to cover about 20 years ago. Presumably if its absolute truth then  the events in it are historically accurate. For example the world was created in literally 6 days about 6,000 years ago, Adam, the first human, was created from dust, Elisha the prophet caused a group of children mocking him to be torn to shreds by 2 she-bears  (2 Kings 2:23-25),  Lot's wife looked back and was literally turned to a pillar of salt (Genesis 19:26) etc. etc. Do you believe this?

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 11:06am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:49am: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:40am: 'God is not some sort of a grey-haired all forgiving Santa, although Gods prime attribute is Love, God said vengeance is mine I will recompense (Punish). It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. God is a consuming fire'. Alan- can I ask; where did you get your ideas about the true nature of God from? Is this something you read somewhere or something you worked out on your own? It comes directly from the Bible, which you should read and that is the place you will find the absolute truth. Jesus said 'I am the Way the Truth and the Life" I have read the bible Alan, I read it cover to cover about 20 years ago. Presumably if its absolute truth then  the events in it are historically accurate. For example the world was created in literally 6 days about 6,000 years ago, Adam, the first human, was created from dust, Elisha the prophet caused a group of children mocking him to be torn to shreds by 2 she-bears  (2 Kings 2:23-25),  Lot's wife looked back and was literally turned to a pillar of salt (Genesis 19:26) etc. etc. Do you believe this?

I do not believe you in fact I feel positive you are lying because if you had indeed read the Bible "from cover to cover"? you would have known what I wrote comes directly from Biblical Scripture

I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings.

But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact?

Man has been writing about and trying to understand his relationship with God for millenia.  In this context, people write down and understand what they know at the time.  A God of wrath may have made sense at one point in history.  How else to explain natural disasters?  Even in the modern era, a tsunami came a few years ago and killed 230,000 people.  Now rational science can explain how the tidal wave happened, but often man is one ascribe meaning to it.   So it was when the Israelites were forming their own nation.   God would either be described as "pleased" or "angered" depending on the outcome of events.  But was it God acting out of wrath, or man interpreting it that way (incorrectly). 

Some prophets were channeling God, so to speak and chastising Israel for losing their way.  So yes, there were times in biblical lore where people were urged to act righteously under threat of destruction.  The story of the flood is certainly an example of this.  But could the great flood have been a natural disaster without wrath, and could man have interpreted it as wrath (and written it down in the bible).  You see my point.

In the new testament, JC (Yeshua) speaks of another path. But how can this be?  How can the wrathful God of the old testament be reconciled with the Nt?  Perhaps it has to do with man's ability to understand himself.  You can only write down your understanding of events.  So while biblical events may be divinely inspired, they were written, and rewritten by men, who had understanding appropriate to their day and age. 

Sometimes, I think people find what they expect to find.  If the firey wrathful deity is your cup of tea, you may just find what you expect.  Our perceptions are, afterall, limited by our belief systems. 


M 

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 1:41pm:

I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings. But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact?

If I believed every word in the whole Bible was literal truth I would be a stupid idiot.

It was/is not 100% historical fact much of it originate from ancient myths of how God interacted with early true humans, such as the story of the Garden of Eden, which needs deep reflection to understand the true meaning of the "Story"!

Of course not, the universe was not made in just 6 literal days, it is billions of years old, the Earth is not just 6 thousand years old it is over 5 billion years old.

Noah could not have put all the animals even two of each on his ark, that is nonsense.

Numbers Chapter 31 is an appalling story of genocide, that is a fabrication, that was supposed to come from Almighty God to murder all the little boys, men, and woman that were not virgins and keep the virgin for themselves. And then to top it all loot and destroy everything.

This Chapter read exactly like a Nazi-led atrocity of WW2.

Read Numbers Chapter 31 and you will see how appalling it really is, and makes God into an evil psychopath.

I see real truth in the words and life of the Lord Jesus Christ, very little in the Old Testament, except maybe in the writing of Isaiah, who I believe was a real genuine prophet of God.

I hope that answers your question I am not an airheaded fundamentalist God gave me a good mind, to think for myself, and for me to use and reason with and my reasoning mind tells me much of the Old Testament in fabricated nonsense.

What I do like is someone to tell me the Kingdom of God is in all of us, if this were true, the ISIS monsters, Ted Bundy  Jeffrey Dahmer, child molesters paedophiles, serial killers, evil tyrants like Hitler, would have the Kingdom of gGod within them, which is absolute nonsense and outright blasphemy. 

They do, however, have a King and he is Satan and please don't try to tell me Satan does not exist because he does and his greatest weapon against us to make us believe he does not exist

Their King makes the like of Hitler, by comparison into a sweet kindergarten kind-hearted, loving and caring good little teenage girl teacher.

They freely chose to do Satans will now have to live forever under the terrible domination of this  mighty Being that is so evil that it is beyond human comprehension.

Their eternal destiny is everlasting separation from the Great God, in a place that is so cold, so remote, so dark, and so far from his love, where hate and evil dominate forever.

Blessings Alan

DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

Man has been writing about and trying to understand his relationship with God for millenia.  In this context, people write down and understand what they know at the time.  A God of wrath may have made sense at one point in history.  How else to explain natural disasters?  Even in the modern era, a tsunami came a few years ago and killed 230,000 people.  Now rational science can explain how the tidal wave happened, but often man is one ascribe meaning to it.   So it was when the Israelites were forming their own nation.   God would either be described as "pleased" or "angered" depending on the outcome of events.  But was it God acting out of wrath, or man interpreting it that way (incorrectly).  Some prophets were channeling God, so to speak and chastising Israel for losing their way.  So yes, there were times in biblical lore where people were urged to act righteously under threat of destruction.  The story of the flood is certainly an example of this.  But could the great flood have been a natural disaster without wrath, and could man have interpreted it as wrath (and written it down in the bible).  You see my point. In the new testament, JC (Yeshua) speaks of another path. But how can this be?  How can the wrathful God of the old testament be reconciled with the Nt?  Perhaps it has to do with man's ability to understand himself.  You can only write down your understanding of events.  So while biblical events may be divinely inspired, they were written, and rewritten by men, who had understanding appropriate to their day and age.  Sometimes, I think people find what they expect to find.  If the firey wrathful deity is your cup of tea, you may just find what you expect.  Our perceptions are, afterall, limited by our belief systems.  M

The truth about the attributes of Almighty God has nothing to do "With Your cup of Tea"

God is who he is and your concept of him changes nothing about his true reality or attributes, which are inscrutable and perfect.

God is who he is not who you want him to be he is what he is, We are made in his spiritual image or thinking mind, which him and the rest of the universe, are duality of things or events such as, good and evil, love and hate, positive and negative, night and day, life and death, peace and war, black and white, today and tomorrow, etc, etc, etc?

DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

Man has been writing about and trying to understand his relationship with God for millenia.  In this context, people write down and understand what they know at the time.  A God of wrath may have made sense at one point in history.  How else to explain natural disasters?  Even in the modern era, a tsunami came a few years ago and killed 230,000 people.  Now rational science can explain how the tidal wave happened, but often man is one ascribe meaning to it.   So it was when the Israelites were forming their own nation.   God would either be described as "pleased" or "angered" depending on the outcome of events.  But was it God acting out of wrath, or man interpreting it that way (incorrectly).  Some prophets were channeling God, so to speak and chastising Israel for losing their way.  So yes, there were times in biblical lore where people were urged to act righteously under threat of destruction.  The story of the flood is certainly an example of this.  But could the great flood have been a natural disaster without wrath, and could man have interpreted it as wrath (and written it down in the bible).  You see my point. In the new testament, JC (Yeshua) speaks of another path. But how can this be?  How can the wrathful God of the old testament be reconciled with the Nt?  Perhaps it has to do with man's ability to understand himself.  You can only write down your understanding of events.  So while biblical events may be divinely inspired, they were written, and rewritten by men, who had understanding appropriate to their day and age.  Sometimes, I think people find what they expect to find.  If the firey wrathful deity is your cup of tea, you may just find what you expect.  Our perceptions are, afterall, limited by our belief systems.  M

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"Lot's wife looked back and was literally turned to a pillar of salt (Genesis 19:26) etc. etc. Do you believe this?"

   As someone who was there with her and the family in a manner of speaking, it wasn't that she was turned literally into "salt", but rather that such an intense heat wave blew through, that she was instantly vaporized and turned into ash, which appeared as "salt" like--if that's the most accurate translation to begin with (not all of it is ideally accurately translated).

   Others were farther ahead physically (outside of the blast range), and some raised their vibrations enough, temporarily, to not be effected (so call "miraculous" stuff, or rather consciousness superseding matter and it's tendencies/laws). 

  As to the cause, my memories aren't clear by any means, but i think it was a large meteorite/small asteroid type object that struck in the general area.  One that ET's could have prevented, but decided not to because of how debased and spiritually regressed the majority of the people in the area were.  Some, like Lot's family were warned so that they could flee. 

    While not everything in the bible is literally true, there is more that is true than many would imagine.  Some of it's multi layered, where it has historical aspects, but also metaphorical. 

  Some is more purely metaphorical, allegorical or symbolic (especially spiritually), and some is more purely historical.

  Some is a simple, ignorant people trying to describe technology far beyond their conception, or non human beings that while often generally humanoid in appearance, sometimes aren't, or otherwise are very different than the current humans.  And beings that whether through advanced technology, and/or developed consciousness abilities, could have seemingly miraculous effects on matter/physical reality from their perspective, and many of our conceptions now.

   Regarding 7 days of creation, that is symbolic, and more relates to numerologist cycle concepts.  There is a good amount in the bible that is numerlogical and even some that is astrological--the latter even more obviously in the Dead Sea scrolls. 

  Is there error and distortion in the bible, of course, human filters were involved, and most of these humans were not at or even necessarily close to the Yeshua type level of consciousness where completely clear sight and perception is experienced.  Neither are today's people.

   If all of us now wrote long lasting books about our beliefs (scientific, religious, metaphysical, spiritual), psychic/nonphysical and physical experiences, etc, no doubt if the people from a thousand years in the future found and read them, they would get a chuckle or two as well as scratch their heads a bit, from much of what we wrote down. even if we were unusually inspired, psychically sensitive, and/or aware for our times. 

  However, that doesn't mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bath water. There is nothing truly new under the Sun. Everything material, is to some extent, on a repeating cycle with minor variations, and what has come before, comes again, and repeats. Like a large, complicated, moving puzzle, but as complex as it may be, still has finite combinations. 

   

   

Alan, you don't discuss the topic, you ramble on like a bad preacher.

Read my posts.  I am not saying God changes over time.  I am saying that man is constantly trying to understand God.  The bible was written in a certain place and time.  At that time, the simple mind ascribed tragedies to God's wrath.  The New Testament with Jesus, brought in another way of thinking of God as pure love.  Jesus never speaks of punishing.  More to tell you not to judge others less ye be judged.  An ye, Alan are judging, so I hate to see where that line of thought goes (don't worry, I will do a retrieval on you).

But seriously, Alan.  See past you limitations or don't; the choice is yours.  If you don't understand the simple concept of the polarity of opposites, then you will see the world simplistically as black or white; good or evil; pleasure or pain; light or dark.  But what about the grey, Alan?  Ahhh.....there's the rub.  Anyone who gives deep thought to yin and yang understands the continuum between "seeming" opposites.  So if there is a continuum, what do we say about a "good man" who does many good deeds, but has a character flaw and cheats on his wife?  Is he purely evil?  Come now Alan, if he saves puppies, donates to charity, helps old ladies cross the street, but is an adulterer, would you brand him as a purely evil man?  Well most would say he did "sin" but may be an otherwise good man who strayed?

That is what is meant by the polarity of opposites.  There is a continuum.  Just like the tide comes in and goes out.  Just like there is day and night, but what about dusk and dawn?  Is dawn day or night, Alan?  Well it is not quite day, and not quite night.   See, anyone who studies the natural phenomenon of opposites eventually realize that they are forms, and artificially separated in our minds.  If you see past the forms, you see how one opposite has a little of the other in it.  That is why the yin/yang black/white fish sign has a white yin fish with a black dot for an eye, and the black yang fish has a white dot for an eye.  Because it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, and each has the seeds of the other in it. 

But if you prefer a simplistic approach, continue to preach.  Yet you don't sound happy to me.  You sound.......lost.  Scared.  And you try to take others with you.

DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 11:58pm:

Alan, you don't discuss the topic, you ramble on like a bad preacher. Read my posts.  I am not saying God changes over time.  I am saying that man is constantly trying to understand God.  The bible was written in a certain place and time.  At that time, the simple mind ascribed tragedies to God's wrath.  The New Testament with Jesus, brought in another way of thinking of God as pure love.  Jesus never speaks of punishing.  More to tell you not to judge others less ye be judged.  An ye, Alan are judging, so I hate to see where that line of thought goes (don't worry, I will do a retrieval on you). But seriously, Alan.  See past you limitations or don't; the choice is yours.  If you don't understand the simple concept of the polarity of opposites, then you will see the world simplistically as black or white; good or evil; pleasure or pain; light or dark.  But what about the grey, Alan?  Ahhh.....there's the rub.  Anyone who gives deep thought to yin and yang understands the continuum between "seeming" opposites.  So if there is a continuum, what do we say about a "good man" who does many good deeds, but has a character flaw and cheats on his wife?  Is he purely evil?  Come now Alan, if he saves puppies, donates to charity, helps old ladies cross the street, but is an adulterer, would you brand him as a purely evil man?  Well most would say he did "sin" but may be an otherwise good man who strayed? That is what is meant by the polarity of opposites.  There is a continuum.  Just like the tide comes in and goes out.  Just like there is day and night, but what about dusk and dawn?  Is dawn day or night, Alan?  Well it is not quite day, and not quite night.   See, anyone who studies the natural phenomenon of opposites eventually realize that they are forms, and artificially separated in our minds.  If you see past the forms, you see how one opposite has a little of the other in it.  That is why the yin/yang black/white fish sign has a white yin fish with a black dot for an eye, and the black yang fish has a white dot for an eye.  Because it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, and each has the seeds of the other in it.  But if you prefer a simplistic approach, continue to preach.  Yet you don't sound happy to me.  You sound.......lost.  Scared.  And you try to take others with you.

I am not rambling you are with your opinion which you have the gall to present as facts!

If you do not want me on the forum just say the word and I will unsubscribe and go elsewhere.

By the way as far as I know I an the only one on this forum to actaly stick his neck out and prove I have real psychic abities.

Maybe you remember the remaraable resuluts of my remote viewing efforts a few years ago, or have you simly forgotten about it.

I think I might bring back the thread if I can find it, Remember the rug in your surgery office, which I other things  or have you just selectively decided to overlook or not remember a real proved sixth sense ability, that seems to exist only in my in this forum of speculations, not actual real attempts to do the extraordinary like I do and can still do if I put my mind to it!

DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 11:58pm:

Alan, you don't discuss the topic, you ramble on like a bad preacher. Read my posts.  I am not saying God changes over time.  I am saying that man is constantly trying to understand God.  The bible was written in a certain place and time.  At that time, the simple mind ascribed tragedies to God's wrath.  The New Testament with Jesus, brought in another way of thinking of God as pure love.  Jesus never speaks of punishing.  More to tell you not to judge others less ye be judged.  An ye, Alan are judging, so I hate to see where that line of thought goes (don't worry, I will do a retrieval on you). But seriously, Alan.  See past you limitations or don't; the choice is yours.  If you don't understand the simple concept of the polarity of opposites, then you will see the world simplistically as black or white; good or evil; pleasure or pain; light or dark.  But what about the grey, Alan?  Ahhh.....there's the rub.  Anyone who gives deep thought to yin and yang understands the continuum between "seeming" opposites.  So if there is a continuum, what do we say about a "good man" who does many good deeds, but has a character flaw and cheats on his wife?  Is he purely evil?  Come now Alan, if he saves puppies, donates to charity, helps old ladies cross the street, but is an adulterer, would you brand him as a purely evil man?  Well most would say he did "sin" but may be an otherwise good man who strayed? That is what is meant by the polarity of opposites.  There is a continuum.  Just like the tide comes in and goes out.  Just like there is day and night, but what about dusk and dawn?  Is dawn day or night, Alan?  Well it is not quite day, and not quite night.   See, anyone who studies the natural phenomenon of opposites eventually realize that they are forms, and artificially separated in our minds.  If you see past the forms, you see how one opposite has a little of the other in it.  That is why the yin/yang black/white fish sign has a white yin fish with a black dot for an eye, and the black yang fish has a white dot for an eye.  Because it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, and each has the seeds of the other in it.  But if you prefer a simplistic approach, continue to preach.  Yet you don't sound happy to me.  You sound.......lost.  Scared.  And you try to take others with you.

I am not rambling you are with your opinions which you have the gall to present as facts!

For a professional doctor, your Engish is appallingly bad, full of ambiguity, vague and does not make real sense!

Maybe at your medical school they did not teach you to write properly or maybe you are a reflection of America's poor schooling system ?

If you do not want me on the forum just say the word and I will unsubscribe and go elsewhere.

By the way, as far as I know I am the only one on this forum to actually stick his neck out and prove I have real psychic abilities.

Maybe you remember the remarkable results of my remote viewing efforts a few years ago or have you  simply, selectively forgotten about it?.

I think I might bring back the thread if I can find it, Remember the rug in your surgery office, which I other things I got right  or have you just selectively decided to overlook or not remember a real proved sixth sense ability, that seems to exist only for me in this forum of speculations, who are too scared, to not actual try and perform real attempts at the extraordinary, like I do and can still do if I put my mind to it?

Of course, that depends if you want me to leave, which would not bother me even one tiny bit?

Blessings

Alan

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:36pm:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:41pm: I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings. But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact? If I believed every word in the whole Bible was literal truth I would be a stupid idiot. It was/is not 100% historical fact much of it originate from ancient myths of how God interacted with early true humans, such as the story of the Garden of Eden, which needs deep reflection to understand the true meaning of the "Story"! Of course not, the universe was not made in just 6 literal days, it is billions of years old, the Earth is not just 6 thousand years old it is over 5 billion years old. Noah could not have put all the animals even two of each on his ark, that is nonsense. Numbers Chapter 31 is an appalling story of genocide, that is a fabrication, that was supposed to come from Almighty God to murder all the little boys, men, and woman that were not virgins and keep the virgin for themselves. And then to top it all loot and destroy everything. This Chapter read exactly like a Nazi-led atrocity of WW2. Read Numbers Chapter 31 and you will see how appalling it really is, and makes God into an evil psychopath. I see real truth in the words and life of the Lord Jesus Christ, very little in the Old Testament, except maybe in the writing of Isaiah, who I believe was a real genuine prophet of God. I hope that answers your question I am not an airheaded fundamentalist God gave me a good mind, to think for myself, and for me to use and reason with and my reasoning mind tells me much of the Old Testament in fabricated nonsense. What I do like is someone to tell me the Kingdom of God is in all of us, if this were true, the ISIS monsters, Ted Bundy  Jeffrey Dahmer, child molesters paedophiles, serial killers, evil tyrants like Hitler, would have the Kingdom of gGod within them, which is absolute nonsense and outright blasphemy.  They do, however, have a King and he is Satan and please don't try to tell me Satan does not exist because he does and his greatest weapon against us to make us believe he does not exist Their King makes the like of Hitler, by comparison into a sweet kindergarten kind-hearted, loving and caring good little teenage girl teacher. They freely chose to do Satans will now have to live forever under the terrible domination of this  mighty Being that is so evil that it is beyond human comprehension. Their eternal destiny is everlasting separation from the Great God, in a place that is so cold, so remote, so dark, and so far from his love, where hate and evil dominate forever. Blessings Alan

But that's my point Alan, the bible cannot, even in principle be objective truth. Even if it starts out as The Divine Word it comes to us after numerous translations and multiple copyings by scribes.This even applies to the New Testament where Jesus's Aramaic spoken words were translated to Greek then to Latin/English- the meaning of a whole sentence can hinge on how a word is interpreted and that's not taking into account that the gospels were compiled some years after Jesus had died (the first probably being Mark, an unidentified author, some 40 years after Jesus had died). That does'nt mean the bible has no value it just cannot be seen as pure, objective truth. If it were there would be one unambiguous version and meaning only and no need for any interpretation by scholars.

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2016 at 1:48am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:36pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:41pm: I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings. But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact? If I believed every word in the whole Bible was literal truth I would be a stupid idiot. It was/is not 100% historical fact much of it originate from ancient myths of how God interacted with early true humans, such as the story of the Garden of Eden, which needs deep reflection to understand the true meaning of the "Story"! Of course not, the universe was not made in just 6 literal days, it is billions of years old, the Earth is not just 6 thousand years old it is over 5 billion years old. Noah could not have put all the animals even two of each on his ark, that is nonsense. Numbers Chapter 31 is an appalling story of genocide, that is a fabrication, that was supposed to come from Almighty God to murder all the little boys, men, and woman that were not virgins and keep the virgin for themselves. And then to top it all loot and destroy everything. This Chapter read exactly like a Nazi-led atrocity of WW2. Read Numbers Chapter 31 and you will see how appalling it really is, and makes God into an evil psychopath. I see real truth in the words and life of the Lord Jesus Christ, very little in the Old Testament, except maybe in the writing of Isaiah, who I believe was a real genuine prophet of God. I hope that answers your question I am not an airheaded fundamentalist God gave me a good mind, to think for myself, and for me to use and reason with and my reasoning mind tells me much of the Old Testament in fabricated nonsense. What I do like is someone to tell me the Kingdom of God is in all of us, if this were true, the ISIS monsters, Ted Bundy  Jeffrey Dahmer, child molesters paedophiles, serial killers, evil tyrants like Hitler, would have the Kingdom of gGod within them, which is absolute nonsense and outright blasphemy.  They do, however, have a King and he is Satan and please don't try to tell me Satan does not exist because he does and his greatest weapon against us to make us believe he does not exist Their King makes the like of Hitler, by comparison into a sweet kindergarten kind-hearted, loving and caring good little teenage girl teacher. They freely chose to do Satans will now have to live forever under the terrible domination of this  mighty Being that is so evil that it is beyond human comprehension. Their eternal destiny is everlasting separation from the Great God, in a place that is so cold, so remote, so dark, and so far from his love, where hate and evil dominate forever. Blessings Alan But that's my point Alan, the bible cannot, even in principle be objective truth. Even if it starts out as The Divine Word it comes to us after numerous translations and multiple copyings by scribes.This even applies to the New Testament where Jesus's Aramaic spoken words were translated to Greek then to Latin/English- the meaning of a whole sentence can hinge on how a word is interpreted and that's not taking into account that the gospels were compiled some years after Jesus had died (the first probably being Mark, an unidentified author, some 40 years after Jesus had died). That does'nt mean the bible has no value it just cannot be seen as pure, objective truth. If it were there would be one unambiguous version and meaning only and no need for any interpretation by scholars.

Focus on the words and life of Jesus try to emulate him as best you can, and the rest of the bible becomes redundant, does it not?

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 13th, 2016 at 1:48am: Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:36pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:41pm: I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings. But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact? If I believed every word in the whole Bible was literal truth I would be a stupid idiot. It was/is not 100% historical fact much of it originate from ancient myths of how God interacted with early true humans, such as the story of the Garden of Eden, which needs deep reflection to understand the true meaning of the "Story"! Of course not, the universe was not made in just 6 literal days, it is billions of years old, the Earth is not just 6 thousand years old it is over 5 billion years old. Noah could not have put all the animals even two of each on his ark, that is nonsense. Numbers Chapter 31 is an appalling story of genocide, that is a fabrication, that was supposed to come from Almighty God to murder all the little boys, men, and woman that were not virgins and keep the virgin for themselves. And then to top it all loot and destroy everything. This Chapter read exactly like a Nazi-led atrocity of WW2. Read Numbers Chapter 31 and you will see how appalling it really is, and makes God into an evil psychopath. I see real truth in the words and life of the Lord Jesus Christ, very little in the Old Testament, except maybe in the writing of Isaiah, who I believe was a real genuine prophet of God. I hope that answers your question I am not an airheaded fundamentalist God gave me a good mind, to think for myself, and for me to use and reason with and my reasoning mind tells me much of the Old Testament in fabricated nonsense. What I do like is someone to tell me the Kingdom of God is in all of us, if this were true, the ISIS monsters, Ted Bundy  Jeffrey Dahmer, child molesters paedophiles, serial killers, evil tyrants like Hitler, would have the Kingdom of gGod within them, which is absolute nonsense and outright blasphemy.  They do, however, have a King and he is Satan and please don't try to tell me Satan does not exist because he does and his greatest weapon against us to make us believe he does not exist Their King makes the like of Hitler, by comparison into a sweet kindergarten kind-hearted, loving and caring good little teenage girl teacher. They freely chose to do Satans will now have to live forever under the terrible domination of this  mighty Being that is so evil that it is beyond human comprehension. Their eternal destiny is everlasting separation from the Great God, in a place that is so cold, so remote, so dark, and so far from his love, where hate and evil dominate forever. Blessings Alan But that's my point Alan, the bible cannot, even in principle be objective truth. Even if it starts out as The Divine Word it comes to us after numerous translations and multiple copyings by scribes.This even applies to the New Testament where Jesus's Aramaic spoken words were translated to Greek then to Latin/English- the meaning of a whole sentence can hinge on how a word is interpreted and that's not taking into account that the gospels were compiled some years after Jesus had died (the first probably being Mark, an unidentified author, some 40 years after Jesus had died). That does'nt mean the bible has no value it just cannot be seen as pure, objective truth. If it were there would be one unambiguous version and meaning only and no need for any interpretation by scholars. Focus on the words and life of Jesus try to emulate him as best you can, and the rest of the bible becomes redundant, does it not?

I quite agree Alan, but I don't remember Jesus in the gospels talking about the dangers of afterlife exploration. You have described such exploration as dangerous, prohibited even - I still don't understand why you think this is so. It can't be because you are against the use of psychic abilities per se as others have attested to your remote viewing accuracy ....

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 11:28am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:28am: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 13th, 2016 at 1:48am: Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:36pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 1:41pm: I said I have read it from cover to cover 20 years ago, which is true, not that I've memorised it cover to cover- that would take many readings. But you  hav'nt answered my question: do you believe that the bible is categorically, 100% pure historical fact? If I believed every word in the whole Bible was literal truth I would be a stupid idiot. It was/is not 100% historical fact much of it originate from ancient myths of how God interacted with early true humans, such as the story of the Garden of Eden, which needs deep reflection to understand the true meaning of the "Story"! Of course not, the universe was not made in just 6 literal days, it is billions of years old, the Earth is not just 6 thousand years old it is over 5 billion years old. Noah could not have put all the animals even two of each on his ark, that is nonsense. Numbers Chapter 31 is an appalling story of genocide, that is a fabrication, that was supposed to come from Almighty God to murder all the little boys, men, and woman that were not virgins and keep the virgin for themselves. And then to top it all loot and destroy everything. This Chapter read exactly like a Nazi-led atrocity of WW2. Read Numbers Chapter 31 and you will see how appalling it really is, and makes God into an evil psychopath. I see real truth in the words and life of the Lord Jesus Christ, very little in the Old Testament, except maybe in the writing of Isaiah, who I believe was a real genuine prophet of God. I hope that answers your question I am not an airheaded fundamentalist God gave me a good mind, to think for myself, and for me to use and reason with and my reasoning mind tells me much of the Old Testament in fabricated nonsense. What I do like is someone to tell me the Kingdom of God is in all of us, if this were true, the ISIS monsters, Ted Bundy  Jeffrey Dahmer, child molesters paedophiles, serial killers, evil tyrants like Hitler, would have the Kingdom of gGod within them, which is absolute nonsense and outright blasphemy.  They do, however, have a King and he is Satan and please don't try to tell me Satan does not exist because he does and his greatest weapon against us to make us believe he does not exist Their King makes the like of Hitler, by comparison into a sweet kindergarten kind-hearted, loving and caring good little teenage girl teacher. They freely chose to do Satans will now have to live forever under the terrible domination of this  mighty Being that is so evil that it is beyond human comprehension. Their eternal destiny is everlasting separation from the Great God, in a place that is so cold, so remote, so dark, and so far from his love, where hate and evil dominate forever. Blessings Alan But that's my point Alan, the bible cannot, even in principle be objective truth. Even if it starts out as The Divine Word it comes to us after numerous translations and multiple copyings by scribes.This even applies to the New Testament where Jesus's Aramaic spoken words were translated to Greek then to Latin/English- the meaning of a whole sentence can hinge on how a word is interpreted and that's not taking into account that the gospels were compiled some years after Jesus had died (the first probably being Mark, an unidentified author, some 40 years after Jesus had died). That does'nt mean the bible has no value it just cannot be seen as pure, objective truth. If it were there would be one unambiguous version and meaning only and no need for any interpretation by scholars. Focus on the words and life of Jesus try to emulate him as best you can, and the rest of the bible becomes redundant, does it not? I quite agree Alan, but I don't remember Jesus in the gospels talking about the dangers of afterlife exploration. You have described such exploration as dangerous, prohibited even - I still don't understand why you think this is so. It can't be because you are against the use of psychic abilities per se as others have attested to your remote viewing accuracy ....

Most of the Apostles had what one could call psychic abilities, the word they used was discernment or gifts of the spirit, which is really the same thing.

Jesus was a being with infinite supernatural abilities, today you might him the master psychic!

Psychic abilities are not inherently good or bad it is what yu do with them that really counts.

He said the things I do you can also do?

A point in case is that you can curse a person on the other side of the world from your location, and some unexpected disaster might happen to him, or you can bless him and good things might follow.

Quantum non-locality and interconnectedness hs led some scientist of excellent standing to suggest that in reality there is only one single fundamental particle in the entire universe, that exist, everywhere  everywhen'

This particle could be the mind of God, who knows. I will search the web to find citation around this bizarre possibility.

The universe in not stranger than you think, It is stranger than you can think?   

Our minds are not restricted to the confines of the physical body, such scientific discoveries indicate that our mind can expand to the outer limits of the universe

Again, Alan all sounds very plausible and true to me - but what specifically it is that you have against afterlife exploration?, because nothing you have written here seems to contradict afterlife exploration such as obes. The evidence for psychic abilities, in general, is very strong and so you won't get any arguments from me about that. I can understand that one may want to exercise care when one is doing it, as you would travelling in a foreign land (maybe take a guide), but that would'nt put someone off travelling to another country - so why would we be put off investigating another reality?

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 12:24pm:

Again, Alan all sounds very plausible and true to me - but what specifically it is that you have against afterlife exploration?, because nothing you have written here seems to contradict afterlife exploration such as obes. The evidence for psychic abilities, in general, is very strong and so you won't get any arguments from me about that. I can understand that one may want to exercise care when one is doing it, as you would travelling in a foreign land (maybe take a guide), but that would'nt put someone off travelling to another country - so why would we be put off investigating another reality?

We will have an eternity to explore the afterlife, but only after our in inevitable deaths and we should not be wasting our time on earth with things inscrutable and instead, we should  savor each and every precious moment of our mortal lives in the confines of our mortal bodies.

The only way to truly know what comes after death is to die, everything else is just speculation?

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 3:01pm:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:24pm: Again, Alan all sounds very plausible and true to me - but what specifically it is that you have against afterlife exploration?, because nothing you have written here seems to contradict afterlife exploration such as obes. The evidence for psychic abilities, in general, is very strong and so you won't get any arguments from me about that. I can understand that one may want to exercise care when one is doing it, as you would travelling in a foreign land (maybe take a guide), but that would'nt put someone off travelling to another country - so why would we be put off investigating another reality? We will have an eternity to explore the afterlife, but only after our in inevitable deaths and we should not be wasting our time on earth with things inscrutable and instead, we should  savor each and every precious moment of our mortal lives in the confines of our mortal bodies. The only way to truly know what comes after death is to die, everything else is just speculation?

That's a good question, why bother with this afterlife stuff?

Here are some examples I can think of:

- the mother wondering if her child killed in a hit and run is ok
-the man who's just been given the bad cancer diagnosis
-the woman who's fear of death blights her life
-the husband who has just lost his wife of 50 years
-the girl who just lost her best friend in a car crash
- anyone who fears the aging process

...In fact anyone who's mortal! I would say knowing where you are going helps you live fully in the present now without the fear that one strike and your out.

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 3:31pm:

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 3:01pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:24pm: Again, Alan all sounds very plausible and true to me - but what specifically it is that you have against afterlife exploration?, because nothing you have written here seems to contradict afterlife exploration such as obes. The evidence for psychic abilities, in general, is very strong and so you won't get any arguments from me about that. I can understand that one may want to exercise care when one is doing it, as you would travelling in a foreign land (maybe take a guide), but that would'nt put someone off travelling to another country - so why would we be put off investigating another reality? We will have an eternity to explore the afterlife, but only after our in inevitable deaths and we should not be wasting our time on earth with things inscrutable and instead, we should  savor each and every precious moment of our mortal lives in the confines of our mortal bodies. The only way to truly know what comes after death is to die, everything else is just speculation? That's a good question, why bother with this afterlife stuff? Here are some examples I can think of: - the mother wondering if her child killed in a hit and run is ok -the man who's just been given the bad cancer diagnosis -the woman who's fear of death blights her life -the husband who has just lost his wife of 50 years -the girl who just lost her best friend in a car crash - anyone who fears the aging process ...In fact anyone who's mortal! I would say knowing where you are going helps you live fully in the present now without the fear that one strike and your out.

King David ofter losing his beloved little boy, put on sackcloth and ashes wept and mourned his passing for a week.

Then to the amazement of his subjects cleaned up washed  and put back his royal attire.

The asked him  " Mighty King" why have you stopped mourning the tragic death of your baby boy so early"/

His wise reply was "because he cant come to me, one joyful day I will go to him (After Davids own death)

Below are items from your post and my response to each one


- the mother wondering if her child killed in a hit and run is ok "Jesus said blessed are the little children for of such is is the Kingdom of Heaven, she need not ask he is safe n the Arms of God.

If her child were a cannibal serial killer like Jeffry Dharma then it is a moot point he is in hell

-the man who's just been given the bad cancer diagnosis, not only cancer victims die we all die,  Tell him he is still alive and must make the best of his life because only God, will decide when he will actually die not his oncologist

-the woman who's fear of death blights her life She needs faith in God only that will remove her fear of death. Jesus said when I have defeated the final enemy which is death I will hand everything back to the Father and we will become One

-the husband who has just lost his wife of 50 years. That is not the end of his life his wife would want him to continue on without her and find new meaning for his existence Regardless they will meet again the moment right after his own death, it is just a temporary separation,not eternal

-the girl who just lost her best friend in a car crash. Should you conjure up the ghost of her best friend to make her feel better, like all the others they will meet again


- anyone who fears the aging process.I am over 75 years of age and have absolutely no fear of the aging process or of actual death' I feared death when I was much, much younger and am both resigned and peaceful about it now in my old age.

   I believe there are dimensions/levels of consciousness that are quite hellish. I've had dream remembrances of doing retrievals in these very dark places. 

   But, i don't think that people are sent there by an outside authority, but rather they are attracted to these places based on the Universal Law of Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like. 

    These places are not eternal either.  If a consciousness there, gets sick of it, wants to change self for the better, etc, then Beings of Light help move them out of there and start the process of rehabilitation. 

  It is true that some cannot, or rather refuse to change and rehabilitate.  I think some of these experience a true death/loss of self consciousnesses. 

  However, it's a harmful concept to think that God punishes people and sends them to eternal damnation.  God does not wish or want that any Soul to perish, but wants all to come back to It's embrace.  God loves all of us (we are parts of It) but respects freewill so much, that it will ultimately allow a self to destroy itself.  However, every effort is provided to help reorient these back to the Light so that doesn't happen. This effort usually happens through Helpers that are attuned to God and Love in varying degrees. 

   Did not Yeshua himself, go to these hells and retrieve some of them?  Does this not show that no matter how negative a being becomes, there is always the possibility for and hope of redemption? 

    If one understands the true nature of God and Christ, they would know that these Love the most depraved just as much as they love those who err little. 

  But God in It's great wisdom, though it gave freewill to all individualized parts of itself, also put into place some basic, universal Laws that determine how reality runs and reacts. The main one is Like attracts, begets, and resonates with Like.  This is the great reorienting force built into the system. 

    For when we choose that which is anti-Sourceness and Love, we suffer to the varying degrees we are not keeping in-tune with our core, original nature and with the core of (original) Reality itself.   

  Briefly speaking, non reality and our temporary games, distractions, and distorted beliefs/perceptions can be at first exciting, interesting, etc but for many, it eventually loses it's glamour and shine.  Eventually most get sick of suffering and start to miss Home (our inner Source) deeply.

  Eventually, most of us realize where we belong and where our true happiness can be found, and we become artists-- Co-Creators working with the Creator to expand Creation in ever unique ways.   

   In this sense, no negative, hindering, misleading, psychopathic being or groups of beings is any match for the Creator or Reality, these can only delay and distract and keep suffering going only for so long.  Eventually though, Reality will win out because it's part of our essential, original nature. 

   We are as children growing up to eventually assume our God like nature, abilities, and roles because we came from God and we go to God the original, Creative Force/impetus. Truly God is both our Mother/Father, our lover, our friend, and part of us and us a part of God, and It does not wish any to perish for eternity.  That's like hating/disliking your own finger, and God loves Itself completely--it has no room within Itself for self dislike or pettiness of any kind, except temporarily in those parts of Itself that it imbued with freewill/self awareness/unique individuality and which went astray.  Even God Itself, didn't know exactly how this experiment would go, and what it's new, hoped for companions/children would choose.  It's only when we began to exercise our choices, that God could start to see all possibilities of choice/direction for that particular Soul and the Whole.


 

DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 11:58pm:

Alan, you don't discuss the topic, you ramble on like a bad preacher. Read my posts.  I am not saying God changes over time.  I am saying that man is constantly trying to understand God.  The bible was written in a certain place and time.  At that time, the simple mind ascribed tragedies to God's wrath.  The New Testament with Jesus, brought in another way of thinking of God as pure love.  Jesus never speaks of punishing.  More to tell you not to judge others less ye be judged.  An ye, Alan are judging, so I hate to see where that line of thought goes (don't worry, I will do a retrieval on you). But seriously, Alan.  See past you limitations or don't; the choice is yours.  If you don't understand the simple concept of the polarity of opposites, then you will see the world simplistically as black or white; good or evil; pleasure or pain; light or dark.  But what about the grey, Alan?  Ahhh.....there's the rub.  Anyone who gives deep thought to yin and yang understands the continuum between "seeming" opposites.  So if there is a continuum, what do we say about a "good man" who does many good deeds, but has a character flaw and cheats on his wife?  Is he purely evil?  Come now Alan, if he saves puppies, donates to charity, helps old ladies cross the street, but is an adulterer, would you brand him as a purely evil man?  Well most would say he did "sin" but may be an otherwise good man who strayed? That is what is meant by the polarity of opposites.  There is a continuum.  Just like the tide comes in and goes out.  Just like there is day and night, but what about dusk and dawn?  Is dawn day or night, Alan?  Well it is not quite day, and not quite night.   See, anyone who studies the natural phenomenon of opposites eventually realize that they are forms, and artificially separated in our minds.  If you see past the forms, you see how one opposite has a little of the other in it.  That is why the yin/yang black/white fish sign has a white yin fish with a black dot for an eye, and the black yang fish has a white dot for an eye.  Because it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, and each has the seeds of the other in it.  But if you prefer a simplistic approach, continue to preach.  Yet you don't sound happy to me.  You sound.......lost.  Scared.  And you try to take others with you.

Mattew you are Jewish and just believe Jesus was a nice Jewish boy at best or a fool at worst.

Your use of him is just a sort of patronization for those who actually believe he is the Christ or the Messiah.

And Jesus talks about punishment on numerous occasions, get your facts right, please

Alan,

First of all, I'd appreciate your not bringing in anything to do with my personal life to the forum and certainly not speaking for me (how dare you tell me what I think Jesus was or was not! It truly is none of your business, and not relevant to a discussion on the board).  The best conversations will discuss the facts, and the facts alone.  I have read the New Testament several times.  I find it to be beautiful and compelling.  I also love the Tao Te Ching, and several texts from other religions. 

Read my posts, and leave my personal background out of it.  In the gospels Jesus gives countless of instances where he asks his followers not to judge others.  Let he who is without sin among you throw the first stone (they all put down their stones.  Why?)  Judge not, less ye be judged.    In Matthew 5:38 "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

I can cite countless other examples "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…

If you compare the rare instances in the gospels where Jesus speaks of punishment, it is not at all in the tenor of the Old Testament.  Indeed with regard to one of his disciples taking up a sword in his defense and slicing an ear of a Roman soldier, he says "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword." 

Alan, you should debate the issues.  And refrain from speaking of me personally.  If you notice, I am not one of those who speaks of your personal or private issues as others have done on the board.  I will never take it there, and I'd appreciate your doing the same.

Matthew

  Matthew may have been born into a Jewish family with Jewish upbringing, but in many ways, he is more truly Christian in essence than many of those that label themselves as such. 

   And ultimately being a true Christian is not about a name or label, but a way of living. A path of choosing, living, and attuning to what Bruce calls PUL.  And in that sense, it's a Universal path and experience and does not require the name or label of "Christian".

DocM wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 9:25pm:

Alan, First of all, I'd appreciate your not bringing in anything to do with my personal life to the forum.  The best conversations will discuss the facts, and the facts alone.  I have read the New Testament several times.  I find it to be beautiful and compelling.  I also love the Tao Te Ching, and several texts from other religions.  Read my posts, and leave my personal background out of it.  In the gospels Jesus gives countless of instances where he asks his followers not to judge others.  Let he who is without sin among you throw the first stone (they all put down their stones.  Why?)  Judge not, less ye be judged.    In Matthew 5:38 "You have heard it said, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." I can cite countless other examples "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.… If you compare the rare instances in the gospels where Jesus speaks of punishment, it is not at all in the tenor of the Old Testament.  Indeed with regard to one of his disciples taking up a sword in his defense and slicing an ear of a Roman soldier, he says "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword."  Alan, you should debate the issues.  And refrain from speaking of me personally.  If you notice, I am not one of those who speaks of your personal or private issues as others have done on the board.  I will never take it there, and I'd appreciate your doing the same. Matthew

Then that must also apply to me, I despise this constant reference by members about my bipolar disorder but they refuse to stop referring to it. If I show the slightest little bit of irritation , then I am manic or mildly manic .

My other point is you do not believe Jesus was the Messiah or Christ if you did you would have to distance yourself from Judaism.

I have mentioned to you on many occasions, that my late mother was a Jew of Polish origin and while she was no means orthodox her family was especially her mother was I never met her father he died young in a motorcycle accident.

Her mom and Dad met in London I am not sure if it was to escape the Nazi threat or look for a better life. Later they came to South Africa some time before I was born in 1940.

Her maiden name was Zidiraraski, she died at the age of 78 My dad also died at the age of 78, but he was twelve years older than my mother. My Dad was of Scottish decent and they met and fell in love during the 1930's An odd mix I know but it worked bringing with four other siblings.

If the process is the same I at my present age of 75.5 I have less than four years to live, sadly?

Alan,

Though born Jewish, I am not religious, and my beliefs are of a mixture of truths I have gathered from reading, and exploring.  I believe that there is a great deal of truth in the christian bible - but that is my belief.  I believe in the teachings of the gospels.  But again, that should not matter.  We should be able to discuss a topic without your mentioning any personal facts about me.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 3:31pm: Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 3:01pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:24pm: Again, Alan all sounds very plausible and true to me - but what specifically it is that you have against afterlife exploration?, because nothing you have written here seems to contradict afterlife exploration such as obes. The evidence for psychic abilities, in general, is very strong and so you won't get any arguments from me about that. I can understand that one may want to exercise care when one is doing it, as you would travelling in a foreign land (maybe take a guide), but that would'nt put someone off travelling to another country - so why would we be put off investigating another reality? We will have an eternity to explore the afterlife, but only after our in inevitable deaths and we should not be wasting our time on earth with things inscrutable and instead, we should  savor each and every precious moment of our mortal lives in the confines of our mortal bodies. The only way to truly know what comes after death is to die, everything else is just speculation? That's a good question, why bother with this afterlife stuff? Here are some examples I can think of: - the mother wondering if her child killed in a hit and run is ok -the man who's just been given the bad cancer diagnosis -the woman who's fear of death blights her life -the husband who has just lost his wife of 50 years -the girl who just lost her best friend in a car crash - anyone who fears the aging process ...In fact anyone who's mortal! I would say knowing where you are going helps you live fully in the present now without the fear that one strike and your out. King David ofter losing his beloved little boy, put on sackcloth and ashes wept and mourned his passing for a week. Then to the amazement of his subjects cleaned up washed  and put back his royal attire. The asked him  " Mighty King" why have you stopped mourning the tragic death of your baby boy so early"/ His wise reply was "because he cant come to me, one joyful day I will go to him (After Davids own death) Below are items from your post and my response to each one - the mother wondering if her child killed in a hit and run is ok "Jesus said blessed are the little children for of such is is the Kingdom of Heaven, she need not ask he is safe n the Arms of God. If her child were a cannibal serial killer like Jeffry Dharma then it is a moot point he is in hell -the man who's just been given the bad cancer diagnosis, not only cancer victims die we all die,  Tell him he is still alive and must make the best of his life because only God, will decide when he will actually die not his oncologist -the woman who's fear of death blights her life She needs faith in God only that will remove her fear of death. Jesus said when I have defeated the final enemy which is death I will hand everything back to the Father and we will become One -the husband who has just lost his wife of 50 years. That is not the end of his life his wife would want him to continue on without her and find new meaning for his existence Regardless they will meet again the moment right after his own death, it is just a temporary separation,not eternal -the girl who just lost her best friend in a car crash. Should you conjure up the ghost of her best friend to make her feel better, like all the others they will meet again - anyone who fears the aging process.I am over 75 years of age and have absolutely no fear of the aging process or of actual death' I feared death when I was much, much younger and am both resigned and peaceful about it now in my old age.

The above may apply to people of deep religious faith but what of the many people with little or none? People who are not happy to go on what someone from a different time and culture said thousands of years ago to decide what they believe today. People who let their own personal experience lead them.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 15^th, 2016 at 2:50am:

wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:30pm:   Matthew may have been born into a Jewish family with Jewish upbringing, but in many ways, he is more truly Christian in essence than many of those that label themselves as such.     And ultimately being a true Christian is not about a name or label, but a way of living. A path of choosing, living, and attuning to what Bruce calls PUL.  And in that sense, it's a Universal path and experience and does not require the name or label of "Christian". While I respect Matthew as a good person again you do not understand why Jesus came to save us from ourselves. Bruces PUL does not exist in any human person and that untrue acronym makes me want to puke. PUL IS AN ATTRIBUTE FOUND ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY IN THE MIND OF GOD Almighty God is Infinitely Holy he is Light and in Him is no darkness whatsoever. The goodness of man is like filthy rags to God period We humans are full of darkness and we simply cannot invade his light with our relatively dark souls. We can't work ourselves by good works to obtain Gods approval There is an almost infinite abyss separating God from man , which even by our best effort we simply can never jump across. How then do we cross this infinite divide, by truly loving and trusting Jesus to be who he said he is Almighty God incarnated. if you love and obey God, then Jesus sort of will lay down as a bridge (Symbolically) , declare, although guilty innocent and allow up to walk on his hypothetical back which forms the final bridge between man and God finally reach God. The mystery of the Cross and the Resurrection?

Presumeably then if Jeffrey Dahmer or any other unpleasant character for that matter, repents his sins and comes to love and accept Jesus he would be spared eternal torment?

'Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?  And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43'

Alan-

you can go on giving example after example of people who commit heinous acts if you want to. I am a keen amateur historian and can cite you many examples of such acts throughout history.Did you know for example that under Henry VIII boiling people alive was a legal form of punishment i.e. a state sanctioned act. But it really is best not to dwell on the inhumane things people do to each other, whether they think its justified or not. Unfortunately there are all too many examples of them. Even our own so-called 'civilised' governments are not above simulated drowning people when it suits them.

The point I am making is that under the view you are promoting man is essentially evil and it is only through submitting to Jesus that he can be saved; this means that anyone's actions are of negligible effect to their outcome.This means that it matters not a jot what you, Alan, think about whether they are worthy of saving or not; under the scheme you propose its is Jesus's call.If they truly repent and put themselves at His mercy then there are no actions which cannot be forgiven. It is the logical consequence of the view you propose.

'PUL EXISTS ONLY IN THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD PERIOD'

PUL=Pure unconditional love. The key word is unconditional i.e without conditions. Therefore there are no actions 'THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD'  cannot  forgive. It is a necessary consequence of what you are saying.

Love, because it's a state of being and not an emotion, cannot be modified.  If it's impure, it's not love.  If it's conditional, it's not love.

PUL, therefore, is a redundant term.  It may apply to human emotions, but not to God.  Love, in that sense, simply is..

R

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 16^th, 2016 at 10:54pm:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 16th, 2016 at 5:27pm: 'PUL EXISTS ONLY IN THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD PERIOD' PUL=Pure unconditional love. The key word is unconditional i.e without conditions. Therefore there are no actions 'THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD'  cannot  forgive. It is a necessary consequence of what you are saying. Yes Gods LOVE is conditional,l but to those that love and obey his love is unconditional is that so hard to understand?

Put it this way- if I had a friend (or anyone else for that matter) and said I love you unconditionally  on the condition that you love and obey me that is not unconditional love.Unconditional love says even if you hate me and wish me harm I still love you.That is a God level of love, but it is not confined to God, humans can display it too.Supposing a son hates his mother and wishes her harm because he (mistakenly) thinks she drove his father away; his mother can still choose to love her hating son anyway.

Why do you make God so small? Your conception of God reminds me of how the ancient Greeks thought of their gods Zeus, Apollo, Aries etc. They were seen as immortal and had enormous power but they exhibited the all too human emotions of anger and jealousy, ready to strike down any mortal foolish enough not to give them their due. You can conceive of God any way you see fit Alan but I would be asking myself where I got such a view from.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 17^th, 2016 at 7:06am:

heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 17th, 2016 at 2:48am: Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:54pm: heisenberg69 wrote on Apr 16th, 2016 at 5:27pm: 'PUL EXISTS ONLY IN THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD PERIOD' PUL=Pure unconditional love. The key word is unconditional i.e without conditions. Therefore there are no actions 'THE PERSON OF ALMIGHTY GOD'  cannot  forgive. It is a necessary consequence of what you are saying. Yes Gods LOVE is conditional,l but to those that love and obey his love is unconditional is that so hard to understand? Put it this way- if I had a friend (or anyone else for that matter) and said I love you unconditionally  on the condition that you love and obey me that is not unconditional love.Unconditional love says even if you hate me and wish me harm I still love you.That is a God level of love, but it is not confined to God, humans can display it too.Supposing a son hates his mother and wishes her harm because he (mistakenly) thinks she drove his father away; his mother can still choose to love her hating son anyway. Why do you make God so small? Your conception of God reminds me of how the ancient Greeks thought of their gods Zeus, Apollo, Aries etc. They were seen as immortal and had enormous power but they exhibited the all too human emotions of anger and jealousy, ready to strike down any mortal foolish enough not to give them their due. You can conceive of God any way you see fit Alan but I would be asking myself where I got such a view from. God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent, that is what I believe. Only God is Almighty so stop insulting me by telling me I have reduces the Infinite to the imaginary rubbish of Greek Mythology Zeus, Apolo or Aries who you seem to be an authority on. EVIL BEASTS IN HUMAN FORM LIKE TED BUNDY AND HITLER WILL BE PUNISHED FOREVER, THEY DID NOT REPENT AND IF THE DID IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FALSE REPENTANCE

God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent but still won't or can't forgive Ted Bundy. Oh well Alan, have it your way.Whatever, you are loved anyway.