Hi.
Bruce, what kind of focus will the terrorists find out after having killed so many innocent people? Will they soon realize their crimes or will they -for a while- enjoy the 17 virgins? :-/

Claudio Pisani  ,

I am also curious to know . Hopefully Bruce will answer . But my guess is , with so much hatred , most likely  they will land in some hell of hatred and extreme violence. In order to get virgins , they have to move into some belief system heavens. My guess , they will not be able to land in a BST Heaven.

I can only hope that these blood-soaked evil Islamic terrorists meet up with 72 flea infested virginal camels for the rest of eternity.

I'm far more concerned about the fact that we have yet to take all-out military actions to destroy them before they kill even more innocent people.  What happens to these murderers after they are killed is the least of my concerns.

R

Regarding what Rondelle wrote, my guess is that many of the people who were killed by terrorists now forgive them.  They couldn't move onto a realm of perfect unconditional love if they didn't understand about having forgiveness for others and being non-judgmental.

The way I am, I wouldn't do what terrorists do. I certainly don't agree with what they do. But it could be that if I had their Soul history and grew up in the same circumstances they grew up in, I might've ended up the same way.

I feel fortunate to be a person who has never harmed another (as far as I know). I don't feel conceited about this. My Disk might've had incarnations that did harm others. It wasn't until my Soul progressed to the point where it understood about the importance of loving and respecting others that its incarnations stopped harming others.

I feel grateful that I have been graced with the gift of being able to live the life of a love-based positive person. I feel gratitude towards the earlier members of my disk that weren't as fortunate and ended up manifesting in a negative way for a while and had to experience the repercussions.

If it was so easy to avoid manifesting as a negative person, so many people wouldn't end up doing so. When I help retrieve people/beings who are in lower realms I feel no judgment towards them.

Regarding what happens to deceased terrorists, before they return to a higher level of being they will have to become honest of what they became while in this World. The longer it takes them to do so, the more they will suffer in a lower realm. They might imagine some virgins, but they certainly won't be rewarded with actual virgins. Since they are in a negative state of mind, they might experience some negative projections. Some of them might become earthbound, and attach to people who are currently terrorists, or are leaning in that direction.

Recoverer ,

Thanks a lot for Your valuable opinion ,
" They couldn't move onto a realm of perfect unconditional love if they didn't understand about having forgiveness for others and being non-judgmental. "

I fully agree with You on Your views on forgiveness. Without forgiveness  PUL is impossible .

Well I'm certainly relieved, knowing that the dead terrorists can minimize their suffering in the afterlife.  I'll bet the relatives of the innocent murder victims will also find comfort from this knowledge.  In the meantime, however, these savages are actively planning their next carnage.

What is needed is to destroy this deranged cult before they inflict more bloodshed.

R

How is a deranged cult destroyed without bloodshed?

I believe that we have free will, but before we can fully use it in a wise and loving way, we have to get to the point where we have the wisdom and the state of mind that enables us to use it.

Going by my experiences during just this lifetime, I've found that it can be challenging to get to the point where I live completely according to love. I can't say that I do so at this point. There are differing thought patterns and drives within my mind. The more I find that a love-based way is preferable the more I choose it, because the other alternative isn't preferable.

It could be that people who do negative things have a lot of work to do before they sufficiently realize that a love-based approach is the best way to go. I do not believe that they would choose negative options if they fully understood all of the factors that are involved. For example, why would anybody who is firmly in contact with worthwhile wisdom want to allow himself to be brainwashed by the people who get others to become terrorists?

<<How is a deranged cult destroyed without bloodshed?>>

Maybe we all gather at Bruce's house and send them PUL.

R

I'm leaning more towards giving them all puppies...

<<It could be that people who do negative things have a lot of work to do before they sufficiently realize that a love-based approach is the best way to go. I do not believe that they would choose negative options if they fully understood all of the factors that are involved.>>

Here's the problem- ISIS and other Islamic terrorists don't view what they do as negative. We've all got to comprehend this essential fact. They view it as carrying out the will of Allah.  Killing is done for the glory of their god. What's a negative option to us is a positive mandate to them.  Not even an option, it's a command.

R

So, if it's a command, they are just obeying orders...

I suppose they are like anybody who has false beliefs. They'll let go of them after they find out that they aren't beneficial to have.

I figure that somewhere inside each of us yearns for the love and peace that comes from God. Until we find it we won't feel fully content. Perhaps the extreme discomfort of the realm ex-terrorists find themselves in after death, will provide them with the incentive to find something more fulfilling.

I've read and listened to a number of NDE accounts where a person started out in a lower realm. They found this very unpleasant, called out for help and received it.

Of course, some deceased people might be more locked into negativity than others. Going by what I've experienced, such spirits can be cleansed of negative thoughts and energy to an extent that will enable them to become open to the love and light that less stubborn spirits open up to sooner.


rondele wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 7:49pm:

<<It could be that people who do negative things have a lot of work to do before they sufficiently realize that a love-based approach is the best way to go. I do not believe that they would choose negative options if they fully understood all of the factors that are involved.>> Here's the problem- ISIS and other Islamic terrorists don't view what they do as negative. We've all got to comprehend this essential fact. They view it as carrying out the will of Allah.  Killing is done for the glory of their god. What's a negative option to us is a positive mandate to them.  Not even an option, it's a command. R

 
<<So, if it's a command, they are just obeying orders>>

As were the Nazi storm troopers.........and your point is?

R

Just exploring...no offense

<<I suppose they are like anybody who has false beliefs. They'll let go of them after they find out that they aren't beneficial to have.>>

Oh.  And what, pray tell, do you suggest we do in the meantime, before they see the error of their ways and continue on their killing rampage? How exactly will they find out their beliefs are false and not beneficial?  Platitudes are comforting but reality has a way of intervening in rather unhappy ways.

R

I'd suggest a peaceful approach, except that the overall World probably isn't ready for such an approach. Too many people would rather go kill other people.




rondele wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 9:55pm:

<<I suppose they are like anybody who has false beliefs. They'll let go of them after they find out that they aren't beneficial to have.>> Oh.  And what, pray tell, do you suggest we do in the meantime, before they see the error of their ways and continue on their killing rampage? How exactly will they find out their beliefs are false and not beneficial?  Platitudes are comforting but reality has a way of intervening in rather unhappy ways. R

Here is what Jurgen Ziewe experienced on the subject. If accurate, its a far cry from voluptuous virgins.

http://www.unariuswisdom.com/what-happens-to-a-suicide-bomber-on-the-other-side/

So if the description of what terrorists face after they die is true, a case could be made that the sooner we stop them from committing even more atrocities, the better it will be for them and us. Kind of a win/win scenario.

R

I once watched an episode of 60 minutes where two boys were indoctrinated by their father to someday become suicide bombers. These boys spent a lot of time fantasizing about and talking about how beautiful the virgins they will be rewarded with will be. This talk troubled their mother, but their father had the upper hand.

It is a shame that boys who naively trust their ignorant father, might someday experience a fate as Jurgen describes.

Also consider how Souls who incarnate into ignorant racist families often end up being racists.

Sure, some people overcome such brainwashing, but why do some do so while others don't? Perhaps some people have a more advanced Soul history and therefore are more equipped to overcome such adversity. There are probably a combination of factors that tilt a person in one direction rather than the other.



doodad wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 2:11pm:

Here is what Jurgen Ziewe experienced on the subject. If accurate, its a far cry from voluptuous virgins. http://www.unariuswisdom.com/what-happens-to-a-suicide-bomber-on-the-other-side/

That description doesn't seem to be very different from descriptions of hell over history. And, if it is so hard to get helpers into the areas in which people are suffering the most in the afterlife, I wonder about the whole setup.

This planet seems based on certain predators taking advantage of others, from the smallest to the largest. If so, why would a soul be penalized for behaving as a predator does?

I find it really hard to justify, from a personal point of view.

I figure that before a Soul incarnates into this World, it has some idea of how things work out. I mean, if a Soul is deciding whether it should incarnate into a racist lifetime, and it finds that many such people end up being racists, why would it get involved with such difficulty just so it ends up in a lower realm some day?

I speak of the racist possibility because one time I had a nonphysical experience where I was in the country (as where farms can be found). This land was occupied by people who were racists while in this World. Black people walked through their farms, the farmers looked at these black people in an angry hateful way, but they couldn't do anything to harm the black people. These racist farmers lost the ability to harm the people they used to harm, and this made them angry.

Going by my experience with retrievals, there seems to be a lot of work that needs to be done. It seems as if lost Souls can be helped easier than Jurgen indicated with his article.

Regarding "it seems" I don't have enough information to say what the details are in a precise way.

On the other hand, what about this experience I shared a while back?

I was out of body and accompanied by a guide. I was flying north above the San Francisco bay and was located East of SF.

I was located a little North of the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge, and I heard that shrieking music that you hear during some horror movies. I went through like a barrier that was within the sky, and it seemed as if I was going to enter lower realms. The only thing I witnessed was this problematic World. I heard a voice say, "There are a lot of rumors." This voice was referring to the afterlife and lower realms.

To be continued, I have to leave now.






seagull wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 7:38pm:

That description doesn't seem to be very different from descriptions of hell over history. And, if it is so hard to get helpers into the areas in which people are suffering the most in the afterlife, I wonder about the whole setup. This planet seems based on certain predators taking advantage of others, from the smallest to the largest. If so, why would a soul be penalized for behaving as a predator does? I find it really hard to justify, from a personal point of view.

There is a lot of supposition going on.

I suppose a person could say something such as "I experienced this during an OBE, so this is truth." But consideringn that different experiencers, whether NDE or OBE don't always find out the same thing, perhaps it is okay to do some supposing.

When I try to figure out how things work after death, I consider what different sources and my differing experiences say. This requires me to consider the possibilities. I do not believe this is a negative thing.



1796 wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 9:53pm:

There is a lot of supposition going on.

There is nothing wrong with supposition, as long as you know it is supposition.

Hi, all.
According to Bruce's teachings, I think that the hellish outlook described by the linked article, is only a second stage of terrorists' experience. In a first stage, theyr beliefs should be accomplished and only after a life's review they should  find themselves cast into the hell they deserve to.
What's your thoughts? :-/

Claudio Pisani wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:22am:

Hi, all. According to Bruce's teachings, I think that the hellish outlook described by the linked article, is only a second stage of terrorists' experience. In a first stage, theyr beliefs should be accomplished and only after a life's review they should  find themselves cast into the hell they deserve to. What's your thoughts? :-/

I looked at the Jurgen Ziewe webpage linked to above.

Islamic heavens naturally interest the out of body explorer.

I have seen Jihadi Heavens like that - charred smoking deserts and ruined landscapes.

In paradise, Jihadists get what they expect and want. Just like everyone else does. That is how the system works.

What a person wants and what they are is what they get – all at once.

Whatever delusions and projections a person carries, after death, those delusions and projections become their unhindered reality.

One’s afterlife is the culmination of one’s Earth life.

If a person wants destruction, if they want the western world destroyed, whatever they believe about themselves, and if they want power or pleasure for themselves, whatever a person is and wants, whatever drives them, they get it, because that is how the surrounding mental-emotional plane (astral plane) adapts to suit and accommodate the condition of one’s own mental-emotional makeup (personality).

At first it is satisfying. The Islamic Jihadist first enjoys seeing the desolation around him and dismembered twitching bodies of murdered infidels at his feet, just like he did or wished for in physical life. It’s not real of course, just an unhindered delusion and projection together, but it has to run its course. After a little while of being satisfied and proud of himself he gets tired of it, bored with it, then frustrated with it, then tries to escape it but he can’t because it is him, it is his own aura. He becomes desperate, calls out to Allah for help, but no help comes because the condition must run its course however long it takes, and that can take a long time. 
    

1796- what sort of afterlife awaits the hard core athiest?  The person who is convinced that after physical death there is extinction....a state of nothingness.

R

Quote:

... should find themselves cast into the hell they deserve ...

Deserve has nothing to do with it. Not in this life or the next.

There is freewill and the law of consequence, that is all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpDkYZWeeVg

rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

1796- what sort of afterlife awaits the hard core athiest?  The person who is convinced that after physical death there is extinction....a state of nothingness. R

It depends on the individual's personality, being his priorities/values, beliefs and mental-emotional-behavioural habits. For many, life goes on as usual. Here is an example. It was my first venture into the afterlife worlds.

https://lacecurtain.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/life-after-death/

Wouldn't the man at some point wonder what happened to his family/friends who are still physically alive? 

R

Quote:

What a person wants and what they are is what they get – all at once. Whatever delusions and projections a person carries, after death, those delusions and projections become their unhindered reality. One’s afterlife is the culmination of one’s Earth life.

Being of a fundamentalist Christian background, I have to ask: what kind of reality awaits one who has a very narrow and very strong belief system in their denomination and its rules in order to be "saved' coupled with the subconscious belief that most everybody else is going to hellfire?

There is much good in those I have fellowshipped with, devotion to Christ's teachings, etc. But at the core it is much as I've described above.

rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:44am:

Wouldn't the man at some point wonder what happened to his family/friends who are still physically alive?  R

Yes, in many cases they do, and in others they don't. In different cases there are grades of consciousness and realisation ranging from dreamlike habitual living through all sorts of grades and types of awareness.

Family, friends, enemies, crowds, can be manufactured just like the surrounding environment can be manufactured. It can all be a product of the individual's personality. Just like in dreams. Ask someone you dreamed about if they remember the dream. Mostly they don't remember because the dream was your own dream or your own manufacture.

Some people cannot wait to argue with their wife or husband, or to go to work to boss someone around. They itch for the occasion because they have the scene already in them. People's personalities get entangled with other's, so that for every urge and inclination there is a receptive one in the other person. Whether they are together or not the dynamic is often circulating in their mental-emotional body, and the mental-emotional construction draws them together so it can be fully expressed, reciprocated and re-energised. People do much of their loving and arguing as much within themselves in their own imagination as they do with others. All this carries on in the afterlife but seems much more real because the physical world is no longer accessible and all that exists is the mental-emotional world.   

Everyone is different though. As I mentioned elsewhere, some people are more tuned to truth and how things are, and others are enmeshed in fantasy, delusion and projection, and only minimally engaged with reality.

There are stages in the afterlife process. The physical and a vital body are dropped off. The person then lives in a plane or environment corresponding to their mental-emotional body with all its mental-emotional inclinations. Later the mental-emotional body is exhausted and dropped off too, leaving the individual in their body of priorities/values. Each stage of shedding disengages one from that corresponding environment, and tunes one into the environment associated with one's next underlying layer. Each stage carries with it experiences and realisations, although the amount learnt along the way varies between individuals, just like it does in physical life.   

Thanks for an excellent response.  One of the most informative and descriptive explanations of the afterlife I think I've ever read.

R

doodad wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 10:29am:

Quote: What a person wants and what they are is what they get – all at once. Whatever delusions and projections a person carries, after death, those delusions and projections become their unhindered reality. One’s afterlife is the culmination of one’s Earth life. Being of a fundamentalist Christian background, I have to ask: what kind of reality awaits one who has a very narrow and very strong belief system in their denomination and its rules in order to be "saved' coupled with the subconscious belief that most everybody else is going to hellfire? There is much good in those I have fellowshipped with, devotion to Christ's teachings, etc. But at the core it is much as I've described above.

Ultimately it is what's in the heart that dictates their afterlife state. The heart is where the foundation body is anchored and where the perceived values/priorities are stored. We can feel our values/priorities/importances in the heart when they are offended and hurt or when they are being re-ordered by circumstance against our resistance.

The condition of the heart underpins the mental-emotional bodies, that is, all habits and inclinations of thought follow one's values and priorities as stored in the heart, and emotions and habitual behaviours follow the patterns of habitual thought.

If someone is a fundamental Christian or any other sort of Christian and is loving from the heart and helpful to others, as Christians generally are, then they go to a pleasant place in the heavens just as Christianity promises.

But if someone is a hypocrite and says they are a Christian but they are cruel and vindictive in the heart and actively or passively inflict harm to others, or wish for harm to come to others, then they will experience an environment corresponding to the hateful wishes in their heart.



But Christianity has a fascinating clause in it, and that is repentance and forgiveness.

Repentance is the presenting of one’s sins/transgressions to God, for forgiveness and dissolution.

Repentance is honesty before God.

Repentance is presenting oneself as one is before God. It makes us transparent before God and enables God’s light to penetrate our entire being, even into the darkest corners.

Repentance is like bringing a cleaner into our house and showing him every dirty room and cupboard, then asking him to forgive us and clean our house, and he does so.  


All prayer begins with repentance.

rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 11:10am:

Thanks for an excellent response.  One of the most informative and descriptive explanations of the afterlife I think I've ever read. R

You're welcome.

Thoughts are indeed things. Jesus warned us that if we have lust in our heart, it's equivalent to having committed actual adultery.  Same thing goes for any other thought, positive or negative.  The more intense and repetitive the thought, the more it frames the contours of what we'll experience in the afterlife. We really need to keep guard over our mental house.

R

Perhaps this is an example from a retrieval I did.

I experienced the state of being of a lady who had a nihilistic viewpoint before she died. She didn't think she would continue after death. Then I saw her, and the feeling I got was quite dark. I merged with her and tuned into love, peace and my connection to source as best as I could. Gradually the combined energy I felt changed from a feeling of negativity to a feeling of love and peace. This helped her move on.

On the other hand there was a period of time when I was basically atheistic and I had what I refer to as my night in heaven experience. There are atheists who have NDEs that are very positive.

So there is no one answer as to what happens to people after they die. P.M.H. Atwater who has investigated many NDERs including people who have hellish experiences states that people experience what they need to experience in order to grow. I've had experiences that made the same point. Each person experiences what he or  she needs to experience in order to move on.

Therefore, one can't simply conclude that things work out precisely to how someone such as Emanuel Swedenborg describes them.

I believe this is what the "a lot of rumors" experience I shared below was pointing to. People have differing viewpoints of what definitely happens to people after they die, but there isn't just one answer.

Regarding making suppositions, perhaps this better than saying, "I know."




rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

1796- what sort of afterlife awaits the hard core athiest?  The person who is convinced that after physical death there is extinction....a state of nothingness. R

I would like to add to my last post.

Some sources say that souls take part in a consensus lower realm, while some say souls experience there own personal hell.

Bruce Moen wrote of a partnered exploration he did with a lady for which I can't remember her name. Bruce experienced a consensus hell like realm. His exploration experienced souls locked up in their own personal hells.

Which viewpoint is true? Possibly both. You can't draw a conclusion by considering just one way of experiencing.

Consider people who are addicted to alcohol or drugs before they die. Bruce wrote that they end up in respective hells. Some sources that seem trustworthy, such  as George Ritchie's NDE, say that such spirits can end up Earthbound and attach to still alive people who are currently alcoholics or drug addicts. So which version is true? Perhaps both. Perhaps it is a mistake for a person to conclude simply on what he experienced. In order to consolidate what differing sources say, perhaps some supposition is in order.

Regarding souls getting stuck in a hell until they got tired of it, I once did a retrieval of a man who was a Nazi who harmed a lot of people during the holocaust. He was locked into his own personal hell. He merged with me, felt negative at first, I tuned into love, peace and my connection to source as best as I could, and the negative feeling gradually changed to love and peace.

Later on I found out that this man was too locked into his negativity to see things clearly. He wasn't going to admit that he was wrong anytime soon. During the retrieval some of his negative thoughts and energy were cleansed away. This enabled him to become honest about how he lived his life and he moved on.

I've done many retrievals in this way. The question is, what percentage of stuck souls receive such help.

Albert- have you attempted retrievals of any of the 139 people killed in Paris?

R

Roger:

I don't determine who I try to retrieve. The friendly beings I work with direct the traffic flow. This seems like a sensible way to do things, because I don't have the ability to see who needs help. It could be that many of the victims of terrorists didn't need help from a human retriever.

This sort of relates, consider what Howard Storm wrote in his book. He was shown one of the places where Nazis killed Jewish people by burning them. This concerned Howard until he saw that these people were greeted by angels after they left the smoke stacks.  I don't believe Howard is a liar. He shared what he experienced.

An interesting side point, on one of his videos Howard said that he doesn't know if he experienced the actual death of the above mentioned Jewish people. It could be that he experienced a simulation that was created so he could understand what took place. There may be other occasions when an out of body experiencer experiences just a simulation, rather than an actual lower realm.

******I noticed that this forum continues to have some difficulties. It seems as if not all of the posts that were written on this thread are still available. [Correction on this point, the pages work in the reverse order of what they used to work.]


rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 2:56pm:

Albert- have you attempted retrievals of any of the 139 people killed in Paris? R

When you logon, the most recent post is at the top.  When you logoff it reverses the order.

R

Okay, I'm usually logged in when I pay a visit here. Whatever the case, I do believe the order has changed from what it used to be.


rondele wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

When you logon, the most recent post is at the top.  When you logoff it reverses the order. R

Regarding the people who were killed, isn't it assumed that many of their loved ones who are already in the afterlife know in advance that this will happen and will be there to meet them? I don't see how it differs from other disasters or ways of death. This was a small number of people compared to larger scenarios which happen frequently on this earth.

Regarding the attackers, I see them as victims as well, victims of ignorance who believe wrongly that taking things into their own hands in this way benefits anyone.

Seagull:

Regarding seeing the attackers as victims, I believe that we are all extensions of one larger Self, call that Self God if you like.

We're all in this together. We're all parts of a very large creative process that results in some parts manifesting in a negative way. If things worked out differently, I might've been one of the parts that manifested in a negative way.

As I said earlier I believe we have free will, but going by how many people manifest in a negative way, avoiding such a way isn't always easy. It comes with the territory. Therefore, a lot of the souls that take on the incarnations that include negative influences, might not succeed in overcoming them. If we consider where we came from and who we are in an expanded sense, when they mess up, so do we.

I think this is one of the reasons I can help with retrievals as I do. When I merge with another soul I don't feel judgment towards that soul. In fact, I feel gratitude towards it because it took on a bigger challenge than I took on.


seagull wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:40pm:

Regarding the people who were killed, isn't it assumed that many of their loved ones who are already in the afterlife know in advance that this will happen and will be there to meet them? I don't see how it differs from other disasters or ways of death. This was a small number of people compared to larger scenarios which happen frequently on this earth. Regarding the attackers, I see them as victims as well, victims of ignorance who believe wrongly that taking things into their own hands in this way benefits anyone.

In what way are you grateful? Just to clarify.

It is reassuring to know that some people are willing to do this kind of work.

Also, I don't believe that people always harm others willingly. They are coerced. They are poor and isolated. There are many reasons.

If you look at every major religion in the world it is clear that some practitioners use them to oppress others. Any idea can be made into a religion and can be used to shame and coerce and oppress others. It is only a different shade of the exact same thing -- a love of power over others.

How am I grateful? If existence is going to have the ability to manifest with freedom, then it has to be allowed that negative manifestations will take place.

If I had the choice of incarnating as a person who is raped or the rapist, I'd chose being the person who is raped, because I would hate to have the mindset that allows a person to rape another.

If a rapist viewed things as I view them, there is no way he could rape another. So there must be some wisdom and connection to love that he is missing. I wouldn't like to miss this connection. In order for the creative process to have freedom, I figure that some wisdom lacking soul had to take on the burden of being a rapist. In a way, souls who take on negative incarnations make sacrifices that some souls had to take on.

Consider a soul who incarnates into a lifetime where it knows that it will be abused by its parents to an extreme extent. It understands that in all likelihood it would become traumatized and develop multiple personality disorder. Some soul had to take on this responsibility because the abusive parents decided to have a child.

Free will has limited value if a soul hasn't reached the  point where it has the wisdom to use it in a wise, loving and productive manner.

If I consider my own shortcomings, I can see that they aren't always easy to overcome. Conflicting patterns of mind compete with each other.



seagull wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

In what way are you grateful? Just to clarify. It is reassuring to know that some people are willing to do this kind of work. Also, I don't believe that people always harm others willingly. They are coerced. They are poor and isolated. There are many reasons. If you look at every major religion in the world it is clear that some practitioners use them to oppress others. Any idea can be made into a religion and can be used to shame and coerce and oppress others. It is only a different shade of the exact same thing -- a love of power over others.

Interesting replies, but no one has ever visited a terrorists' F25 ? I'm scared of doing it! :-/

Claudio Pisani wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 4:11am:

Interesting replies, but no one has ever visited a terrorists' F25 ? I'm scared of doing it! :-/

What is an F25?

Edit: I presume this is it: https://monroeinstituteuk.org/focus-levels/

<<Regarding the attackers, I see them as victims as well, victims of ignorance who believe wrongly that taking things into their own hands in this way benefits anyone.>>

So if the perpetrators of these despicable acts really are victims, what does that mean in terms of consequences for what they did?  I suppose the terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC, killing over 3,000 people, were also victims?

Following your thinking on this, what do you suppose they are facing in the afterlife?  If they are really victims, I wonder if they escaped any negative consequences for their actions?

R

Quote:

So if the perpetrators of these despicable acts really are victims, what does that mean in terms of consequences for what they did?  I suppose the terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC, killing over 3,000 people, were also victims? Following your thinking on this, what do you suppose they are facing in the afterlife?  If they are really victims, I wonder if they escaped any negative consequences for their actions?

Exactly. This ties in with what I was asking on the reincarnation thread. If one "decides" they want to experience being a terrorist or a serial killer, "decide" where they want to be born and who to so they can "gain experience and learn lessons" then by logical extension no one is a victim. All our "afterlife friends" came down to help us and we probably murdered them too. We'll all laugh about it later. And further, no one should end up stuck in a BST or a hell zone either. We knew what we were doing ahead of time and what we wanted to get out of life. Kind of turns that theory on its head for me. Makes no sense.

There's lots of sheer lunacy about these kinds of things. Many years ago a former member of this board proclaimed that before Hitler and those he had murdered were incarnated, they all got together and formulated their plan for the Holocaust.  Hitler, accommodating fellow that he was, agreed to play the role of the bad guy and thousands of other souls happily agreed to be burned in ovens in order to teach the world a needed lesson about, I guess, the horrors of evil.

And then, after they all died, they had a happy reunion in the afterlife, congratulating each other for pulling off their successful drama.  No consequences for Hitler, his storm troopers, Dr. Mengela,  etc etc. because, of course, it was all agreed to by all parties.  Victims?  Perish (bad pun) the thought!

R

You're free to look at it however you like. It is understandable that people get frustrated and angry in this world.

However, there are a lot of nde accounts which show that there is enough love to go around for everyone, even those who commit acts here on earth that people find abhorrent. Many people do come back with a greater appreciation of what love actually is and how important it is because of their experiences.

Regarding the planning of our lives here, how would I know? I don't claim to be an expert on the afterlife.

Seagull,
   
Just for the record, my comments weren't directed at you. I can see these types of people - Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, et al - as victims in the sense that they are victims of themselves. And because they let their twisted ego or whatever rule over them, they will likely suffer more acutely and longer than their victims until they are willing to examine themselves. Who knows how long that might take? But we all have choices here in this life. We can choose to value and cherish human life or fill our soul with hate and snuff it out. There are many people who have grown up in deplorable circumstances and have become a shining light. Many have grown up with everything and nurtured hatred and evil. The people who do these types of evil acts have, by their own choice, fed the wrong dog.

doodad- very well said.

R

On the other hand, if it was so easy to choose good over bad, so many people wouldn't choose bad. I believe it is more than a coincidence that people who are exposed to bad influences are much more likely to manifest in a negative way than people who aren't exposed to such influences. So what if a person didn't end up becoming something such as a gang banger if he didn't grow up in a neighborhood where gang activity is prevalent. To deny the effect of negative influences is the same as denying the positive effect of good influences, such as people who set good examples.

If people who do bad things actually had complete access to the wisdom that would enable them choose love based actions, then why do they end up doing bad things? When I feel the inspiration of divine love, this is no small thing. Such inspiration is quite convincing. It helps that I'm not overburdened with negative influences. If I was like some people and found it difficult to tune into divine inspiration and was overburdened by negative influences, chances are that I also would end up manifesting in a negative way.

Every soul needs some time to reach the point where it has the wisdom to know that a love-based approach is the way to go. If they were simply downloaded with such wisdom when they are created, they wouldn't have free will. They would be like a robots. Perhaps God is so wise and loving that rather than creating all of us like a bunch of mindless machines, he provided us with the opportunity to find out for ourselves what approach to existence works best. Certainly this approach has some short comings such as terrorists, but as least way we aren't will lacking robots.

For people who like to think of what Jesus said, if the prodigal son story came from him, what does it mean? If he saw deceased terrorists arriving in a lower realm, would he throw stones at them, or would he see the big picture and out of love find a way to help them find a better way?

Consider what Bruce Moen wrote about light being helpers crying when spirits slipped back into lower realms. Perhaps such helping spirits are in touch with a level of love and wisdom that is really worthwhile.


doodad wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:26am:

Seagull,     Just for the record, my comments weren't directed at you. I can see these types of people - Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, et al - as victims in the sense that they are victims of themselves. And because they let their twisted ego or whatever rule over them, they will likely suffer more acutely and longer than their victims until they are willing to examine themselves. Who knows how long that might take? But we all have choices here in this life. We can choose to value and cherish human life or fill our soul with hate and snuff it out. There are many people who have grown up in deplorable circumstances and have become a shining light. Many have grown up with everything and nurtured hatred and evil. The people who do these types of evil acts have, by their own choice, fed the wrong dog.

<<To deny the effect of negative influences is the same as denying the positive effect of good influences, such as people who set good examples.>>

Albert- that's a strawman argument.  Nobody has denied the effect of negative influences.  Of course it has an effect.  The point is, we all have free will to choose.  If no one had free will, it would be a different matter.

R

Quote:

Albert- that's a strawman argument.  Nobody has denied the effect of negative influences.  Of course it has an effect.  The point is, we all have free will to choose.  If no one had free will, it would be a different matter.

Agreed. And isn't it a sign of personal growth that we can take responsibility for our actions even with negative influences? I think we're all saying ultimately the same thing.

What precisely happens when a person chooses bad rather than good? One could say that such a person chose in a selfish manner, but what precisely makes it so some people tilt towards a selfish decision while others don't?

It seems to me that there are cause and effect reasons as to why some people are much better as choosing a positive way than others.

If you could closely compare the psychological conditioning and wisdom of a person who chooses poorly with the conditioning and wisdom of somebody who chooses in a positive way, you would probably see noticeable differences.

Wherever we are in our spiritual growth, we have to start from where we are.








rondele wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

<<To deny the effect of negative influences is the same as denying the positive effect of good influences, such as people who set good examples.>> Albert- that's a strawman argument.  Nobody has denied the effect of negative influences.  Of course it has an effect.  The point is, we all have free will to choose.  If no one had free will, it would be a different matter. R

doodad wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

Quote: Albert- that's a strawman argument.  Nobody has denied the effect of negative influences.  Of course it has an effect.  The point is, we all have free will to choose.  If no one had free will, it would be a different matter. Agreed. And isn't it a sign of personal growth that we can take responsibility for our actions even with negative influences? I think we're all saying ultimately the same thing.

Yes, personal growth does require, among other things, that we own up to the things we do, regardless of "root causes."  I would, however, draw the line when it comes to characterizing terrorists as victims.  To give the impression that there's an equivalency between those who commit acts of atrocities and those who die agonizing deaths at their hands is simply wrong.

R

I guess I would wonder also, if a terrorist went through a life review and experienced what his victims did, or found himself in a situation like Jurgen Ziewe describes, would he consider himself a victim? I don't see how.

I do applaud recoverer for his example of the prodigal son. I can't say how I would feel were I to witness a terrorist suffering in the afterlife. I hope it would be compassion. Maybe thats why he is a "recoverer" and I am not.  :)

I guess one could consider that lacking sufficient love/wisdom/experience can create mental instability, and the opposite is also true.

I think that someone with such deficiencies, which would be everyone, at one point or another, could be considered a victim. However, I can also understand why a person would object to the word.

The depths of the pain of mental illness is something that is difficult to describe. If there is a plan to this life, perhaps these kinds of difficult experiences are meant to be a part of it, and who am I to say.

I chose the name Recoverer without thinking of retrievals. I used to have lower back pain, got rid of it through clearing energetic blocks, and as a result, on a spur of the moment chose the name "Recoverer." Perhaps it also applies to retrievals. :) On a limited number of occasions my spirit friends have referred to me as Recoverer. They usually call me Albert.

If I remember correctly, Jurgen Ziewe found that his mother ended up in a lower realm for a while because of the after effects of having a controlling husband  (from her second marriage). It doesn't seem to me that she did anything to deserve ending up in a lower realm for a while. One could say that she should've let go of her hurt and connected to her higher self right away, but life isn't always that simple and easy. As I said earlier, quite often people have to start from where they are. 







doodad wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

I guess I would wonder also, if a terrorist went through a life review and experienced what his victims did, or found himself in a situation like Jurgen Ziewe describes, would he consider himself a victim? I don't see how. I do applaud recoverer for his example of the prodigal son. I can't say how I would feel were I to witness a terrorist suffering in the afterlife. I hope it would be compassion. Maybe thats why he is a "recoverer" and I am not.  :)

Albert, you're a good guy. We haven't always agreed over the many years, but I admire your spiritual quest and wish you only the best.

R

Thank you Roger, same to you.


rondele wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 5:15pm:

Albert, you're a good guy. We haven't always agreed over the many years, but I admire your spiritual quest and wish you only the best. R

rondele wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Well I'm certainly relieved, knowing that the dead terrorists can minimize their suffering in the afterlife.  I'll bet the relatives of the innocent murder victims will also find comfort from this knowledge.  In the meantime, however, these savages are actively planning their next carnage. What is needed is to destroy this deranged cult before they inflict more bloodshed. R

  During just the terms of Bush Jr and Obama, there has been more destruction, suffering, and blood shed caused from US meddling than any caused by a combination of all terrorist activities.  Many innocent lives ruined.

  But when western men in a nice suits makes decisions that so negatively affect so many lives, it's not called "terrorism" for some reason. It's just as terrorist oriented as any Islamic extremists willing to kill in the name of their beliefs. 

  I'm of the firm opinion that if there had been less Western meddling and destructive activities in so many parts of the world, especially in the Middle East, there would be less terrorists.  When you bomb other countries to kingdom come, because you want to control their resources or their leader starts to use non US currency to sell oil, etc, then yeah people might start to think of your government as the great oppressor that needs to be brought down. 

   The US in particular as a long list of atrocities towards other nations. The majority of which had no justification other than greed and power grabbing.  And that's only addressing the more well known things and doesn't cover covert operations where the CIA or CIA hired goons go into 3rd and 2nd world countries to destabilize the government or assassinate the popular leader. Activities less known about publicly.

  I suppose just as on an individual level we should first look at self before denouncing others, on a national level it would be wise to do this as well.

    But sometimes those most vocal in denouncing have a definite axe to grind and aren't just speaking out of unconscious ignorance. 

Justin:

If a person wanted to rehabilitate a terrorist and get him to see things more clearly, such a person would have to be honest and admit when the United States government has done some unethical things. Other wise, the terrorist would be replacing one set of lies with another set. A rehabilitator would need to be honest if he hoped to appeal to a terrorist's inner honesty.

Recently the Republicans passed a bill that limits Syrian refugees. That sends the message that the United States is selfish and fear motivated, rather than motivated by love.

A country shouldn't expect people from other countries to view it as a night in shining armor, when it doesn't act like one.

Selfish, selfish, selfish. Afraid, afraid, afraid. "We are more important that the rest of the World." "The ends justifies the means." "Blah, blah, blah."




wrote on Nov 20^th, 2015 at 6:58pm:

rondele wrote on Nov 16th, 2015 at 4:25pm: Well I'm certainly relieved, knowing that the dead terrorists can minimize their suffering in the afterlife.  I'll bet the relatives of the innocent murder victims will also find comfort from this knowledge.  In the meantime, however, these savages are actively planning their next carnage. What is needed is to destroy this deranged cult before they inflict more bloodshed. R   During just the terms of Bush Jr and Obama, there has been more destruction, suffering, and blood shed caused from US meddling than any caused by a combination of all terrorist activities.  Many innocent lives ruined.   But when western men in a nice suits makes decisions that so negatively affect so many lives, it's not called "terrorism" for some reason. It's just as terrorist oriented as any Islamic extremists willing to kill in the name of their beliefs.    I'm of the firm opinion that if there had been less Western meddling and destructive activities in so many parts of the world, especially in the Middle East, there would be less terrorists.  When you bomb other countries to kingdom come, because you want to control their resources or their leader starts to use non US currency to sell oil, etc, then yeah people might start to think of your government as the great oppressor that needs to be brought down.     The US in particular as a long list of atrocities towards other nations. The majority of which had no justification other than greed and power grabbing.  And that's only addressing the more well known things and doesn't cover covert operations where the CIA or CIA hired goons go into 3rd and 2nd world countries to destabilize the government or assassinate the popular leader. Activities less known about publicly.   I suppose just as on an individual level we should first look at self before denouncing others, on a national level it would be wise to do this as well.     But sometimes those most vocal in denouncing have a definite axe to grind and aren't just speaking out of unconscious ignorance.

The number of deaths, military and/or civilian, on either side in a conflict has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the conflict.

Neither does increased deaths on either side following the entering into the conflict by any nation have anything to do with the rights and wrongs of the conflict.

To claim death rates and the timing of them indicate right and wrong in conflict is just usual leftist nonsense, taken on by the emotional and used by the cunning to manipulate the emotional.

By that emotional logic the Nazis would be the good guys in WWII and the allies would be the bad guys.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/WwIIDeathsByCountry.png

Just as nonsensical is to claim Islamic violence is caused by oil or western economic interests.

Islamic violence and terrorism has existed since Islam was born.

When no one in the west had the least interest in Arabia the Islamic Arabs were raiding, murdering, pirating, invading and enslaving western peoples. And doing so right through history, through every century.

Study your history. 

For those of you who do not know your history on Islamic aggression against the west and have no intention of studying it, as most lefties don't, here is a boiled down visual for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ENPy0mqOE

You might also read up on the operation of Barbary Piracy and the Razzia.

Here's a place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

The cause of Islamic terrorism is not the Western Nations. If the Western Nations did not exist or were sunk below the sea and all western powers and influence was removed from the Earth, the Islamic nations of the Middle East and Africa would still be terrorising each other as much as they are today. If all the non-Islamic non-western nations of the Earth were likewise removed or had never existed so that only Islamic African and Middle Eastern nations existed, then Islamic nations would still be ravaged by terror, beheadings, burnings, slaughter, stonings, and other murderous mayhem. Terrorisers would still be paddling in blood and gleefully yelling Allah hu Akbar. Because that is Islam. It is what Islam commands and incites, and it happens all over Arabic Islam.

If you doubt that bloodshed, slaughter and oppression is innate within Islam then read your Koran. Page after page of ongoing commandments for Muslims to kill, wage war on, ambush, terrorise, cut and slaughter infidels, who are the enemies of Allah and the firewood of hell.

I could quote hundreds of such incitements and commandments to violence, or list their verse references, but why bother when anyone can browse the Koran and read them for themselves.

Such open ended commandments and incitements to war and murder of Infidels is peppered through the book. There is nothing about being charitable, loving, forgiving, helpful to others except to other Muslims. Non-Muslims are to be waged war on and killed in the ways prescribed, and at best not to be befriended except by pretence in self defence in the effort of Jihad which is obligatory to every Muslim according to his means. Read it for yourself. Why remain ignorant?

That is why Jihadists kill in the way they do, killing infidels and other Muslims whose views differ slightly from their own - because the Koran tells them to do it. Jihadists are just being good Muslims.   

Beliefs are the drivers of individuals and nations. Islam itself is its own driver.

We often hear lefties and Muslims calling for the destruction of western capitalism and for the deaths of the wealthy or wealthiest people.

For example:

wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:11pm:

... since more and more are waking up and starting to care more about each other and the Earth in a more universal and unconditional way, except that our larger society is in a strangle hold by a .1 percent of population who REALLY LIKES the way things are now, and who greatly fear any change to their lifestyles of unbelievable greed, power lust, material control, and domination of the Earth and earthly forces.  These are the truly insane ones, and yet they are in the positions of most material power and influence in this world. It is THESE which need to be taken out in order for this healing process to fully complete in reasonable time.  This is why there will be extreme outer catalysts--in order to break their strangle hold on our global society.  As technology advances and grows, so does their ability to influence and control the masses, for they have the majority money and influence the politics, laws, etc more than any common person or even group can. ...

wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 2:19pm:

... this has become less about the average person, and more about the .1 percent of the population which has a strangle hold on the larger society.     It is these that need to be, and will be taken out by these outer catalysts.  In many of their cases their hearts are so hardened, so inured to the suffering of others, and they are so influenced by dark forces ... that they cannot be reached or changed any other way. other than being taken out of the equation.    So, this is what it boils down to.  The Planning Intelligence/Co-Creator has given them plenty of time and energy to change their ways, and they have spat in His face time and time again, and now He becomes the Taskmaster and no nonsense though He loves them as much as He loves us.       Their time is up and their sick party is being broken up by the police.   These willful, bratty little ones are simply being given a needed time out in a corner for a time. And humanity will be allowed to reach it's full potential without their oppressive weight on our backs.

But after the wealthiest have been killed - or "taken out" as Justin likes to put it - there will still be the wealthiest of those who are left. There will still be a top 1% of wealthiest people left for jealous hateful people to want dead. So the killing will keep on going. Killing off the most wealthy in the name of "caring" is what "caring socialists" always do when they obtain unbridled power, until those left alive live in oppressed poverty except for those who orchestrated the killing. Look at history. 

The left's hatreds and Islam's hatreds are the same - hatred of the West. It is their shared hatred of the west and their desire to see the west in ruins that unites their sympathies.

It is that shared hatred that makes Muslims leftists, and makes leftists apologists for Islamic hatred and violence. They share the same hatred and the same intent.

They are allies for their cause.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that we as human beings continually focus on our differences. The divisiveness is toxic.

Instead, what if people focused on thoughts such as a vision of a world in which each human being was cared for, and was able to live a creative and productive life without the constant threat of violence. What would that outcome look like?

It is an undeniable fact that the countries of the world are predominantly run by men. Could I be divisive and wonder why we see the problems we do in our societies, and if it can be attributed to longstanding patterns in our cultures?

But, the patterns are changing. I notice that today, in my city, young men can now walk safely in the street holding hands. What a thought, that young lovers can be safe enough to display affection in public.

That is progress. We can only make progress when people stand up for each other and not against each other.

ISIS continues its atrocities and the left wing socialist/communist wannabes say nothing.  Burning men alive in cages, beheading young children and crucifying their headless bodies, raping and then killing young girls, raping wives while forcing their husbands to watch...the list goes on but the leftist loonies say nothing, content to criticize their own country instead.  In short, they never met a dictator they didn't like.  Che Guervero is one of their heroes, not knowing or caring of the killings he had done.

Our colleges are brainwashing the kids to hate our country.  1796 is correct, the islam terrorists were doing their dirty deeds before the USA existed, but of course they know none of this.  These are disaffected people, they wallow in ignorance, content to shout meaningless slogans while keeping their heads wedged in dark and remote places.

If they were in charge during WWII, we'd all be speaking German by now.  They need to educate themselves. Researching Neville Chamberlain would be a start along with the killing fields of Chairman Mao and Stalin. 

Anyone can hate but it takes effort to learn the history of conflict.  Which is why they choose to remain ignorant.  They would rather take money and goods from others than to expend effort to gain things from their own effort. They are stupid enough to believe, as their leader Bernie Sanders says, that the growth of terrorism is due to global warming.

R

If a person really loves himself, he will allow himself to see his faults, so he can do what he can to correct them.

If a person really loves his country, he will allow himself to see its faults, so he can be a part of correcting such faults.

Consider this situation. You live in a country (let's say Iraq) and another country attacks it supposedly to help you (I'll leave the oil possibility aside), your daughter gets badly burned in a bombing run, because of the war your country's hospitals aren't working, you walk a long distance carrying your daughter to a U.S. military hospital in order to get her help. They help her for one day but that's it, because it is the military's policy to not help the locals beyond one day.

As a result, there is no extensive follow up assistance available to your daughter. If this happened to you, would you conclude that the country that invaded your country was genuinely interested in helping you? What I share is based on an actual case I saw on a documentary I watched. Is it possible that you might become angry with the country that attacked your country?

I watched a 60 minutes episode and Airforce pilots admitted that it was the policy to shoot a missile or drop a bomb into a house where a guy considered bad was located even if innocent civilians were around, because civilian losses were considered acceptable. If  someone  close to you was killed in such a way by people that are supposedly trying to help you, would you perhaps become angry?

When the United States does things such as the above, they give terrorist leaders and recruiters more material to brainwash their followers with. They mix truth with lies. Some angry people respond because sometimes angry people are easy to manipulate. Consider what happened in the United States. The George W. Bush administration was good at using 911 to get many U.S. citizens to become angry and afraid.  To an extent where it was able to get support for attacking Iraq.

General Wesley Clarke reported that a Senior General told him that the U.S. was going to go after Iraq. This was before 911 took place.

A few weeks later a Senior General told General Clarke that in the next five years we are going after 7 countries: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran. (paraphrased) Below is a video where he says this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

Not only did Bush and his party use fear and anger to try to get support, they also used Patriotism. I served in the U.S. Army for four years. I know all about patriotism. I also know about not letting people use supposed patriotism to dumb me down. A real patriot will question what his government says and does. To call such people brainwashed leftist whatevers, that is the sort of rhetoric people who aren't willing to look at themselves and their country honestly would say.

In a true democracy citizens are completely free to question what its government does, even during times of war.

People aren't expendable, so number of deaths does matter. World War II stats aside, many innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed and harmed. Many former Iraq vets from the US and other countries are dealing with post traumatic stress syndrome. I wouldn't marginalize what they are going through.

rondele wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 10:19am:

I can only hope that these blood-soaked evil Islamic terrorists meet up with 72 flea infested virginal camels for the rest of eternity. I'm far more concerned about the fact that we have yet to take all-out military actions to destroy them before they kill even more innocent people.  What happens to these murderers after they are killed is the least of my concerns. R

Oh, Wow! Rondele!!!...It seems your inner resentment and anger/hate towards non-Christians is finally revealed!..GMan 

I don't think Roger was speaking of all Islamic people.


Gman wrote on Nov 24^th, 2015 at 12:39am:

rondele wrote on Nov 16th, 2015 at 10:19am: I can only hope that these blood-soaked evil Islamic terrorists meet up with 72 flea infested virginal camels for the rest of eternity. I'm far more concerned about the fact that we have yet to take all-out military actions to destroy them before they kill even more innocent people.  What happens to these murderers after they are killed is the least of my concerns. R Oh, Wow! Rondele!!!...It seems your inner resentment and anger/hate towards non-Christians is finally revealed!..GMan

Recoverer, you might think you know what reason, logic and analysis are, but it is clear you don't. You confuse emotion with intellect; you get muddled between what you like and dislike and what you think. Your reasoning follows your feelings, and you think that's good.

Some people are fooled by themselves and by others into thinking and debating emotionally, mistakenly believing it is somehow correct and good, just because it can feel that way when one doesn't know better.

Other people debate emotionally because they see advantages in it over others. They are actually mentally focused but use emotional arguments to manipulate emotional people. 

But there is nothing to be gained down that road, not even for the smart ones, just some feel-good feelings, some fake image and delusional status, and some power and control over others which ultimately amounts to nothing worthwhile.

I understand that in some universities there still exist courses that offer training in logic and analysis, and how to differentiate between reason and fallacious arguments. You might consider such training.    

1796:

If there was a person who was logical to an incredible extent but he had no heart, he would be lacking.

Listening to one's heart and getting emotional isn't the same thing.

recoverer wrote on Nov 25^th, 2015 at 12:30pm:

... Listening to one's heart and getting emotional isn't the same thing.

Yet you confuse them.

Sure, certain emotions are felt in centres other than the heart, such as in solar plexus, pit of the belly, lower abdomen, groin, throat, head, hands, feet, even knees. But erroneous emotions are felt within the heart too.

Consider that anger and rage is felt within the heart. As is jealousy, bitterness, resentment, hatred and many other destructive conditions. Grief, loss, pride, indignation, vengeance, are felt in the heart. Consider that destructive love can feel pure, beautiful, good and right to the individual who experiences it, such as illicit affairs of the heart. Deranged jealousy feels itself to be right, and is felt in the heart. Even paedophilia or child-love as some paedophiles term it, is felt within the heart. Hatred is felt in the heart. Murder is felt in the heart. A person’s strongest values are stored and felt within the heart, no matter how wrong, misguided or selfish those values are. When those values are trampled, wrenched, hurt or offended, the heart is where the discomfort is felt, often painfully. And when those values are accommodated by circumstance the heart is where the sense of pleasure, satisfaction and rightness is felt. Anger always feels itself to be right, that is why it is so difficult to overcome. Other conditions of the heart feel themselves to be right too, yet they are wrong, destructive and deluded. And they all have their passive, subtle, background states, and their open, active, upfront states. Either way they feel right, and they are drivers. Jails and divorce courts are full of people who have followed their heart. Cunning and treacherous people manipulate others by their hearts. Yet the heart is also the centre of genuine love, forgiveness, thankfulness, faith, hope, courage and wisdom. 

Can you differentiate between emotion and heart? And between the healthy and unhealthy conditions of heart? Even though they all feel good and right and people all over the world are confusing them every day and spoiling their lives and relationships.

Definitions:
Reason, the ability to weigh up known facts.
Logic, the adding together of facts.
Analysis, dividing of facts.

(To offset any reflexive criticism from those trained in logic, I am well aware of the standardised categorisations of reason and logic - inductive, deductive...and others, but I am simplifying things here for the non-formally trained thinker. Simplifying things is one of my favourite pastimes.)   

The Logical Basis

Affirmations, assertions, recitations, chants, drills,... can be beneficial, detrimental or insignificant, depending on their design and method of application.

Here is one that some readers might like to play with.

With one of either of your hands make a loose V for victory sign, or what some call a peace sign, with the first to fingers extended and the others folded inward. It is not a ridged sign but a loose formation with the extended fingers comfortable curved, not straight, and their tips about an inch apart.

Then verbally say the following:

"Two plus two equals four."

On the first word when you say "Two", tap your two fingers together lightly on a table top, arm of a chair, or on the side of your thigh. Then raise your fingers off the surface.

Continue to speak the sentence, and on the last word when you say "four", tap your two fingers again on the table, the chair, or your thigh.

On this second tap, you may tap them slightly closer to you than the previous tap, so that the four contact places where your finger tips have tapped will roughly form to the corners of a presumed square as do the four dots on a dice on its number four face. This tapping in a slightly closer place is not essential or something to be too strict about, but it can be helpful.

What is important is the tapping with the two fingers on the first and last words and the recitation of the sentence as worded.   

Repeat the sentence with the finger tap as many times as you are comfortable doing, perhaps 10 times, or more times if you like, but don't be obsessive about it. As you recite the sentence and tap on the first and last words, take a pause between each repetition and gently draw breath. Let the concept and its effect settle into your mind. Do this exercise a few times a day or as you find beneficial.

As with all affirmations, you may vary the recitations so as to keep them impactful. Perhaps alternate saying it verbally and the saying it silently in thought. Or if saying it in thought, alter or alternate the internal volume between an imagined whisper and normal internal voice. Experiment, play with it.      

I term that sentence The Logical Basis. It is the first divisible sum. It is reason, logic and analysis combined at its most primary level. It provides the foundation upon which all further logic is built. Contemplate that.

With time and practice you will notice that the logical foundation of your mind becomes stronger. And from that stronger foundation, further logic is more easily exercised.

Edit/PS: You may do the second tap on the second "two" if you like. Experiment with both ways. See if you can sense a different effect or if one is better. It is often good to do some things both right and wrong, to sense the difference between them and zero in on what is right and best.


All human skill is comprised of three layers

Every human skill that exists is comprised of three levels or layers.

First and innermost, are the governing principles that pertain to the skill. These are the laws of physics, or laws of bio-mechanics, or laws of mind that pertain the that particular skill. These are laws of nature like, the hand is quicker than the eye (move it fast and see it blur to almost being invisible); the hand is no quicker that the body (you cannot touch a wall out of arm's reach quicker than you can lean or step forward); one step backward is quicker than one step forward, but continuous steps forward are quicker than continuous steps backward; the startle is quicker than deliberate movement; emotion follows thought; values dictate the type of emotion stirred by the thought; values are subject to judgement; distance, motion and time are united, ....etc, all laws of physics, mind and nature.   

Second is the foundation layer. This is the layer from which all techniques are executed, from which all techniques stem from and return to. This layer is the anchor keys on the keyboard upon which the fingertips rest on and from which they strike any key and then return to their position; it is the body holds and positions in wrestling and judo from which the locks are executed; it is the guards of the fencer, from which he parries, cuts and thrusts, and to which he returns after every execution; it is right seating in the saddle from which the horse is controlled with various bodily commands; it is being right seated in the driver's seat of the motor car; it is the player's positions on the football field from which they play their respective roles; it is the seat of concentrated awareness in the head from which all our operations of mind, speech and body are controlled and from which we do our meditative work; and, Two plus two equals four, is the foundation from which stems all analysis and logic. It is not just a concept, it is a basis. No logic is capable without it, and no logic or analysis comes before it.

The third and most outer layer is the layer of techniques. Techniques are the individual movements that are executed from, or that stem from and return to the foundation. They are the movements of the touch typing fingers as they strike any key; they are the parries, cuts, thrusts of the fencer; the locks, strangles and strikes of the wrestler; the movements the rider performs to control the horse; the operation of the car's controls; the manoeuvres and tactics of the football players; and the meditator's work as he directs his attention on the task he is working on. And if engaged in reason, then the techniques are his ability to weigh up known facts, to add facts together, and divide of facts.

In every human skill, the techniques come from or emerge from the foundation layer and return to it. If the foundation layer is weak or lacking, then the techniques that come from it will be weak and lacking.

And in every human skill, when the foundation is correct, then the techniques will largely look after themselves. But without a sound foundation, techniques will be haphazard and ill connected.  

When we understand this three level layering of all human skill, it enables us to quickly learn new skills. We can watch experts performing their skills, look for the place or layer their techniques are coming from and returning to, peer through the blur of outer motion and confusing detail of technique and observe the underlying layer which is the foundation. We then see the foundation layer moving slowly and powerfully beneath the surface clutter and we can easily remember and copy the foundation layer because it is simple and basic. From there we identify our objective and can easily learn the techniques that take us to our objective, particularly if we know how to categorise them into their natural groups, always studying from the greater categories down to the lesser and more detailed. Whatever the skill, keep technique close to the foundation, and always operate within in accordance with the governing principals (natural laws) that apply to that skill. 

That is part of how I have learned so many skills and have worked so many contrasting fields, for I understand how skill is layered, and I can watch someone do something and understand and copy them very quickly. I am not showing off, just telling it as it is, for those who know me often ask how I learn things so quickly, and how I identify weakness and improve things, and that is part of how I do it. There is more, such as how to gather and order knowledge, but that will have to be in another post. This post is about logic and how to become more skilful at it, and about how skill and understanding is layered.   
      

1796:
Focus 25 is described also by Bruce, it's the BST.

rondele wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:54am:

.  No consequences for Hitler, his storm troopers, Dr. Mengela,  etc etc. because, of course, it was all agreed to by all parties.  Victims?  Perish (bad pun) the thought! R

The trick is that no one of us, until incarnated, can really know who threw the first pebble! Were the today's terrorists killed by Christians during the Crusades? Are today's victims paying for their old carnages, voluntarily playing with their actual murderers?
I think that it's time of re-balancing the collective Karma, think of all the murders perpetrated in the last centuries, only forgiving our enemies, or experiencing their same destiny we can estinguish bad Karmas.

What is BST?

Oh my! Belief Systems Territories...guess if you've ever read Bruce's books! :o :o :o :o

Claudio Pisani wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 1:30pm:

Oh my! Belief Systems Territories...guess if you've ever read Bruce's books! :o :o :o :o

I recall Monroe somewhere used the term belief system territories and presumed he meant the astral planes, particularly those planes associated with the religions. In a sense, all the Earth's planes are belief system territories, some more so than others though.

I cannot summon the interest to read subjects such as astral travel, meditation, afterlife and such. Though I was unusually motivated to read Dying to Know by Josh Langley and was impressed by his work. I have read a fair bit about it in the past and I still read the bible.

Why so shocked?

Quote:

I cannot summon the interest to read subjects such as astral travel, meditation, afterlife and such.

1796: just curious.....would you say its unprofitable, unnecessary, or you've just moved past what the current info can offer?

I ask, because at 46, I wonder if I have begun my own journey of "self discovery" too late. Incorporating the knowledge (if one can all it that) that I have slowly gained into my life is difficult and unwieldy. I have begun meditation and find I enjoy it, but it has its challenges. I have decided to forgo this whole "out of the body" approach in favor of a slower and hopefully less jarring way of understanding via lucid dreaming and proceeding from there. Just starting to get decent dream recall now. Baby steps, don't know how it will go.

1796:

I doubt that you know to what degree I confuse them. I figure that's my concern.


1796 wrote on Nov 26^th, 2015 at 1:00am:

recoverer wrote on Nov 25th, 2015 at 12:30pm: ... Listening to one's heart and getting emotional isn't the same thing. Yet you confuse them. Sure, certain emotions are felt in centres other than the heart, such as in solar plexus, pit of the belly, lower abdomen, groin, throat, head, hands, feet, even knees. But erroneous emotions are felt within the heart too. Consider that anger and rage is felt within the heart. As is jealousy, bitterness, resentment, hatred and many other destructive conditions. Grief, loss, pride, indignation, vengeance, are felt in the heart. Consider that destructive love can feel pure, beautiful, good and right to the individual who experiences it, such as illicit affairs of the heart. Deranged jealousy feels itself to be right, and is felt in the heart. Even paedophilia or child-love as some paedophiles term it, is felt within the heart. Hatred is felt in the heart. Murder is felt in the heart. A person’s strongest values are stored and felt within the heart, no matter how wrong, misguided or selfish those values are. When those values are trampled, wrenched, hurt or offended, the heart is where the discomfort is felt, often painfully. And when those values are accommodated by circumstance the heart is where the sense of pleasure, satisfaction and rightness is felt. Anger always feels itself to be right, that is why it is so difficult to overcome. Other conditions of the heart feel themselves to be right too, yet they are wrong, destructive and deluded. And they all have their passive, subtle, background states, and their open, active, upfront states. Either way they feel right, and they are drivers. Jails and divorce courts are full of people who have followed their heart. Cunning and treacherous people manipulate others by their hearts. Yet the heart is also the centre of genuine love, forgiveness, thankfulness, faith, hope, courage and wisdom.  Can you differentiate between emotion and heart? And between the healthy and unhealthy conditions of heart? Even though they all feel good and right and people all over the world are confusing them every day and spoiling their lives and relationships.

doodad wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 12:47pm:

Quote: I cannot summon the interest to read subjects such as astral travel, meditation, afterlife and such. 1796: just curious.....would you say its unprofitable, unnecessary, or you've just moved past what the current info can offer? I ask, because at 46, I wonder if I have begun my own journey of "self discovery" too late. Incorporating the knowledge (if one can all it that) that I have slowly gained into my life is difficult and unwieldy. I have begun meditation and find I enjoy it, but it has its challenges. I have decided to forgo this whole "out of the body" approach in favor of a slower and hopefully less jarring way of understanding via lucid dreaming and proceeding from there. Just starting to get decent dream recall now. Baby steps, don't know how it will go.

The following may or may not be useful to you or others.

Possibly a mixture of those reasons and others too. For a while now I have preferred to find things out for myself. But that is just me, others may read books on the subject and that is good. Whatever your soul would have you do. 

Also, I am quite busy with my daily life lessons and work. I change careers and fields frequently and it takes a fair bit of study and personal adjustment each time. And between jobs and outside of work there are other matters to focus on too. Relationships with others are a major part of life, learning and service for each of us. I have many interests and involvements. Some of them require a lot of study. Also, there is always work to do inside myself. Our characters require regular maintenance and work, just like a motor vehicle does. My out of body and other occult type activities are now tools to help me with life's tasks, they are not the focus of my attention as they were in the past. Our most useful tools are our head with conscience, sound judgement and sensible thinking, and our heart, and our feet and hands.      

The first and foremost reason we are each here is for the lessons and duties within our physical living. Our material duties come first, and our spiritual duties apply to them. We should not get things arse about backwards.

Sometimes an individual may be drawn towards a period of inward contemplation and soul exploration. But sooner or later must come the time of application, of applying our spirituality to the world in which we live.

No, you have not left your journey of self discovery too late. No one has. But, there are stages in life, with each stage suiting a different kind of learning. And what we should do is not necessarily what we have been trying to do in the past, or what we wish we had done, or what we should have done, but what we should do is what needs doing now.

Look around you. Look at your family. Look at you relationships with others. Look at those you mix with and frequent. Look at you job, your work or your lack of work. Look at your community. What needs doing? What can you do? Where can you work? How can you serve?

Don't think about money. Don't think about your lack of opportunity or qualifications. Just commit yourself to your true Employer and ask to be put to work. And in the meantime, don't wait, put yourself to work in any way you can, no matter how menial or seemingly petty.

Remain committed to your true Employer and at their right time stepping stones will rise before your feet, doors will open, opportunities for service and learning will present themselves. Some opportunities will amaze you at where they take you, and others will amaze you because they were right next to you all along.   

Also, work on your character. Make it strong and virtuous as you can. Cultivate conscience, it is the organ at the inner upper pinnacle of your soul through which your God communicates to you. Realising this is faith. Cultivate faith. Begin with a quiet awareness of God within yourself. Every evening practice self assessment. Look at how you performed that day, what you could have done better, and how you intend to perform tomorrow. Don't let guilt or failure paralyse you. Regret and shame are the growing pains of soul. Keep on walking on. You are human and God knows that. There is no burden in all the universe greater than the burden of freewill. What human has learnt to wield it wisely? Ask forgiveness and understand and forgive others for their freewill burden too. Look after your relationship with truth and love, and all your other relationships will look after themselves. There is no failure, only learning. Practice saying heartfelt thankfulness for every lesson in every experience, no matter how pleasant or unpleasant, and for every little beauty, blessing, and opportunity.

As long as we live, our spiritual learning and growing continues. In some form, in some way, the lessons and the opportunities to learn and grow and serve are around us and within us right now. We just need to see them and apply our self to them. From there the ball starts rolling.      

   

   

It's not too late. It's never too late to explore, and you can choose your own way. Over time I have learned to make less distinction between this and the "other" world.

Your dreaming life can show you many things. Are you being chased? Are you displaying out of character qualities when interacting with people in your dreams? What is the environment like? These are interesting to observe, but that moment when you realize you are floating -- priceless.

I used to think that the afterlife was about gaining something -- some kind of security, some kind of continuity, some kind of relief, etc. etc. -- but it is really about letting many things go. Just let them go.

Thank you both very much for the advice.

1796: I appreciate the time you took to write that. I have had some thoughts down similar lines, but hadn't put them together like that. Thanks.


Quote:

I used to think that the afterlife was about gaining something -- some kind of security, some kind of continuity, some kind of relief, etc. etc. -- but it is really about letting many things go. Just let them go.

This I need to think about also as that is how I have viewed it up to now.

  I guess some folks missed my core, basic point earlier.

More plainly stated, all terrorist activities should be called out and denounced, not just those committed by religious extremists, but also those committed by governments and military's.  It all should be labeled "terrorism". 

   I'm well aware of the history of the Middle East. No doubt there would still be some terrorists motivated by extremist ideologies even if there wasn't ever any western meddling, but the simple truth is, even with that factor, the huge majority of Muslims are peaceful people.  And contrary to mainstream media pushed and repeated assertion, there are Muslim activists very vocal in denouncing Muslims who commit violence in their religion's name.

  Look at the sordid, bloody history of Christianity. In the grand scheme of things, Islam hasn't been as destructive. It's a newer religion and like any belief system, is changing over time. 

  Btw, an excellent book on the Israel-Palestine history and issue is "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Israeli historian Ilian Pappe. 

  As he points out in this book, and in other avenues of communication, prior to western meddling over there, Muslims and Jews lived side by side most often peacefully for a very long time.  Since Israel was artificially parceled out by western powers, it's been a mess. Yet another example of western meddling facilitating huge messes.

   Anyone who paints the picture of the Middle East in an overly black and white manner, and demonizes Islam and Muslims, either is ignorant or has an agenda. I wonder how many of these have even visited a Muslim country? 

   I have no love for Islam, or any religion.  I hope that some day, all religions will die so that true spirituality, Universal Love in action, rises from the ashes.  This day will likely come and the seeds of same will be planted even in this short life. 

To 1796
I was shocked because this is Bruce's board and he has done a big job exploring BST, so I presume that we all have read his books! :o

PS: Even I from Italy!! ::)

I doubt Bruce minds that I have not read his books. I have read some of his posts, though, and he seems a sensible and rational man. I admire good, strong and rational men. The world needs more of them.

Bruce surely doesn't care, but you've lost a good chance to improve your knowledge or to match different points of view. But guess you've got your own experiences using different tools: no problem if both match between each other ;)

Claudio, I just drank some Norwegian chocolate milk called Litago. You're missing out on the tasteful blend, what are you going to do about it?

http://img.bramat.no/images/stories/tester/sjokolademelk_2012-11/tine-litago_original_sjokolademelk.jpg

Claudio Pisani wrote on Dec 4^th, 2015 at 8:09am:

Bruce surely doesn't care, but you've lost a good chance to improve your knowledge or to match different points of view. But guess you've got your own experiences using different tools: no problem if both match between each other ;)

Yes, I expect we use different methods. I don't know whether Bruce's writings match with mine or not. Perhaps someone will tell me. 

There are many excerpts of his books on the main page. :D

hehe, thanks Claudio. I think you're right, I should have read some of Bruce's writings. It has been rude of me not to. You have motivated me to do it. I will put it on my to-do list.

The least you could do old chap :)

IT IS SIMPLE
TERRORIST ARE IN HELL
PERIOD
NO FURTHER DISCUSSING NEEDED

Humans are not born with anger or hatred.  Injustice produces anger.  Anger produces hatred.  Destroy a country, a society and kill as many as you can and you will end up with anger that turns to hatred.  That hatred gives you terrorists.  It is cause and effect. 

If you don't want terrorists, don't inflict injustice.   Then no more terrorists.  Look at Iraq or Israel and count the dead, the maimed, the society destroyed and then consider the great damage to psyche.  If you do that, you will understand the anger, the hatred and then "terrorists".

I am an American but I suffered a personal deep injustice many years ago.  I can understand the anger which turns to hatred.  I can understand considering violence for retribution.  For some reason, I didn't follow through but I understand where it comes from.  It is a desire for justice no matter how irrational that expectation is in this world.

Claudio Pisani wrote on Dec 4^th, 2015 at 8:09am:

Bruce surely doesn't care, but you've lost a good chance to improve your knowledge or to match different points of view. But guess you've got your own experiences using different tools: no problem if both match between each other ;)

Improve my knowledge, I am light years ahead of Bruce and, he knows it
I have 2000 post on this forum.
You can view them if what you want, but I am thinking about removing them all

Claudio Pisani wrote on Dec 4^th, 2015 at 11:28am:

There are many excerpts of his books on the main page. :D

You will not find the truth in Bruce's Books they are full of invented rubbish

Real the Bible pray to Almighty God and from him you will get the truth. From Bruce you get convoluted false nonsense
You simply cannot image your self in heaven

You are accountable to a Holy Righteous God, for every thought, ever action of inaction