As I have tried to understand what comes after death, there seems to me to be several schools of thought on reincarnation.

1. Our separate personality leads many lives. This seems to come mainly from past life regressionists, some mediums  and some who have had many OBEs. Apparently, we sit around between lives and plan our next life and the lessons we want to learn/experience with the help of our friends. This, according to some, involves soul contracts with every living thing we come into contact with. Its a bit fuzzy to me when we actually escape the cycle of "live, die, repeat"in this model. It is also a bit hard to see where one could get "lost" in some focus level or need to be "retrieved" in this scenario as it is all planned out to a large degree.

2. From others, mainly after death communication and some NDEs and OBErs, come the thought that reincarnation is not linear and our separate personality experiences it relatively few times. Rather, it is the Higher Self/Soul that sends out more "copies" of itself. After we die, we move on and evolve through many more dimensions and eventually merge with the God/Source. I can see more with this model the necessity of growing out of belief systems and the possibility of personal hells and whatnot as we work through what we have experienced in this life. The idea of "planning" doesn't seem to come through as strong here.

I don't see how they can both be right, and frankly I'm confused why the real truth shouldn't be more evident after so many claim to experience the non physical reality. Why the disparity and what really happens?

Going by what I've experienced, the spirit information I received, what Sources I consider credible say, and what makes sense to me, the second option is true.

It could be that some sources speak of the first possibility because some people have difficulty with the notion that they are just one projection of a larger Over Soul. A viewpoint that includes the larger picture is more likely to be true than a viewpoint that doesn't consider all of the relevant factors.

To me it doesn't make sense that an entire Over Soul could incarnate into one puny body.

I believe that Over Souls work with other Over Souls and form Soul Groups, and learning and projection is a combined process between such groups.

There could be occasions when a projection incarnates more than once, but I don't think this happens a lot. I don't know the stats.

Recoverer ,
What about our separated  aspects of self ? ...Some sources say , we need to reincarnate again and again to retrieve the separated  aspects of our selves   .... These aspects are our own smaller versions from many lifetimes which are living in a narrower reality and sometimes in traumatic situations .... So in order to become a more whole being we need to reincarnate again and again to retrieve these smaller versions / aspects  of our selves .....What is Your opinion about this theory ?......   

What baffles me, and what I never really see any comments about anywhere, is what I have come to think of as the"slow descent into chaos". Beyond a narrow band of "truth" where sources dovetail nicely, or where there is somewhat verifiable evidence, things begin to become very subjective and unravel to the point of directly contradicting one another. This subject is a case in point. Most sources accept some sort of reincarnation as a given, but after that it gets widely dissimilar and sometimes really weird. (Hanging out in the afterlife planning our soul contracts with bugs and whatnot).
   The same holds true for other areas of the paranormal. I have heard/read of some amazing demonstrations by physics, but with that you get this fascination with Atlantis which is scientifically refutable. The internet is littered with failed doomsday prophecies from the last 20 years. I can understand that OBEs and NDEs can be subjective and metaphorical, but beyond the veridical aspect they differ dramatically as to why we are here and what comes next, even among experienced OBE practitioners and those who claim to have had deep NDEs. I could go on and on and step on everyone's toes, but hopefully you get my point. The saying is "don't believe me, experience it for yourself' That's good, but what truth does that give me? If 5 people say 5 different things based on their personal experience, my take just makes 6. How does that get me to ultimate truth?

doodad- You make some excellent points, which is why I have concluded that either there IS no "ultimate truth" or, if there is, we sure won't find it on an internet conversation board.  Personally I don't accept that reincarnation, however we define it, is real, but of course I have no more proof than anyone else.
Basic math tells me it can't be true but those who believe will insist that we lived lives elsewhere in the universe, either as aliens or as fish on a watery planet.  So basic math doesn't matter as far as they are concerned.  We can rationalize virtually any belief.

Arguing these things is a dead end road.  For me the points made by 1796 make the best sense.  We should focus on living a good life, helping those in need, being compassionate, and just being grateful for our life and our human consciousness.  All the rest is just background static and meaningless noise.

R

   Very much agree with Albert's post and based on similar reasons. 

As far as repeaters, it definitely happens.  As to how much or how often it happens, really depends on different factors.  There are some Souls/probes that seem to do it much more, and some that do it very rarely. 

   The reasons i've so far figured out for repeating are:

1. The individual Soul/probe feels, after their physical experience ends, that they really screwed up and they want to try again to do better.  I have a case of this within my Disk. That experience i mentioned on Seagull's synchronicity thread, involved one of our selves that repeated.  It was the English trapper/militia guy in early American period.  He really let himself get led astray in the ways of selfishness and materialism.  So, he decided he wanted a "do over". 

  He chose and was set up with amazingly similar circumstances to be reborn into.  He even had the same first and last name the 2nd time around.  He went to many of the same places, got involved with some of the same Souls and Spirits who had lifetimes in both experiences. 

  He ended up living a very similar life pattern, an a'hole womanizer, gambler, hard living and fighting type, but the 2nd time around--he lost his life to help others live. That singular act helped to keep him out of the afterlife hellish levels after he died.

2.  People that die very suddenly and difficultly while young or youngish.  In some cases, the time and manner they died, hadn't been one of their prechosen exits, but happened because of the freewill misuse of others which affected their life pattern.  So sometimes they will directly reincarnate because they feel like they have stuff left unfinished. 

3.  Immature Disks whom have split off/projected immature Souls/probes.  Sometimes they get addicted to Earth lives and cycle in and out for awhile until they and their Disk start to mature.  Until that point, they are usually the power monger types during their earth lives.  They tend to be near the psycho/sociopathic spectrum or at the very least the narcissistic spectrum.  During their earth lives, they are all or almost all ego and very materialistic on all levels.

4.  Very mature, service/helper type Souls will sometimes do a repeater.  They usually do so during very transformative, change filled cycles (like the one we are in now), where there is much potential for both great consciousness growth or retrogressing. They do so for service purposes.
Sometimes these will have lived a human life and after, go into other, more expanded systems for awhile, and then come back here from that rather "non human" experience base.  These tend to seem strange to most of their human peers. They don't tend to fit in very well, as if, they are almost aliens so to speak (in a manner of speaking, they are).   :D

5.  The occasional exceptions to the rule and averages, and due to whatever individual idiosyncrasy.

  Except for the 3rd group, most repeating seems to be fairly rare--various Disk projections seem to be much more common.  Again, part of the reason is that earth lives are difficult and heavy often, and if the probe has any deeper sensitivity and conscious connectedness, then they often don't jump at the idea of heading back into the fray and chaos of Earth and human lives. 

  As regards Earth change type information, the fact that such a wide variety of different sources and people have picked up something about the subject, indicates to me that there is likely something to it. 

As far as so many being off about the exact timing, there can be various reasons for that.  Such as showing the fluidic and flux like nature of time and the future. To some extent, the future is always changing as to exact timing and manifestation.  While the most probable timelines can be pin pointed sometimes, just as often, especially talking big, collective events, can change some as to timing or exact manifestation. 

Two, how hard it is to perceive and translate well information from the nonphysical that is expanded in nature into accurate human-physical understanding.  Talking to your dead grandma is one thing, but tuning into the destiny of a world is another.  Takes a lot of clarity, inner balance, and expanded perception to accurately perceive and translate such information.

   Another factor: Preconceptions and conscious, "left brain", interpreter interference.  For a great example from my own experience--the G2 cloud-Galactic Core event/interaction and Dr. Paul LaViolette's information. I assumed because of this event and it's unusual nature, that it could be "the event".
  The testing and experiments that the military did with remote viewing indicates quite clearly that the less you consciously know about about a subject, the better and more accurately you will tend to perceive it nonphysically and/or translate it physically. Which is why they set up the random numbers being assigned to targets, and that even the "control" people guiding the remote viewing often didn't know what the target was, and definitely not the number sequence someone picked for it.  Not always the case, but often enough. 

   Getting information from both expanded and hindering sources.   Your Expanded self/Exec committee Disk level might give you general information about possible or probably earth or civilization changes, but then later on, once you're open minded to it, more hindering and limiting sources like a negative ET group, might slip you some inaccurate info to mislead you.  One reason might be, to get you discouraged or disbelieving about the whole subject. 

  And lastly, maybe the huge majority of individuals are just not meant to know the more exact timing of this, even if it can be pin pointed?  2000+ years ago, Jesus talked about massive changes happening, but he said that even he didn't know the exact timing and how exactly the events would manifest.  Granted, the way time and the future works, is that the closer you get to the most probable time lines, the more set and probable they become unless variables are introduced, and thus the more exact timing and kinds of events can be narrowed down. 

  Speaking for self, i've been consistently been saying for many years now, that the period of 2013 to 2016 was going to be an especially change filled period.  I think it's quite possible that civilization as we know it, may collapse before 2017 begins. 

   I've also pointed to the conditional, relative nature of the future and how choice affects timing and material manifestation.  For example, awhile back i was getting that there was a possibility that US and Israel was going to aggressively start warring with Iran and other countries.  I was told if that did happen, then likely large Solar Storms would happen that would fry the grid and collapse civilization earlier than later.  I wasn't told that it WOULD happen no questions asked, i told it was a potential development and it could go either way. 

  Thankfully Russia stepped in and brokered peace and diplomacy at these volatile times.  Some power mongers within the US and within Israel, wanted nothing more than a war with Iran, but Russia made it difficult for these. 

  So if 2017 arrives, and current civilization is still going on strong, then i will, like many in the past, have egg on my face. But, i would be very surprised if the collapse doesn't happen by then.   

rondele wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

We should focus on living a good life, helping those in need, being compassionate, and just being grateful for our life and our human consciousness.  All the rest is just background static and meaningless noise.

  Would very much agree that the above is the most important part and focus, but that doesn't somehow dictate that all the rest is meaningless.  It doesn't have to be so black and white, extreme, and "either or". 

  Clearly both beliefs and knowns can have a powerful influence on perception, which in turn has a powerful influence on choice and thus behavior.  This influence can be very expanding or hindering, depending on the beliefs and knowns and how they relate to that individual and it's various patterns and idiosyncrasies.

   But ultimately, it's what you do and choose with what you know and believe, that really directly causes consciousness growth or stuckness. 

  For a person who has had the kind of experiences i've had, it's very hard to believe that reincarnation doesn't exist in some form or manner. 

   I think i will go with my own direct, transformative experience involving multiple synchronistic events involving other people with much, much higher odds over what chance allows, over someone's intellectual opinions and leanings.  One's a positive and one's a negative.  Very hard to confirm/verify a negative.

  I wonder, have you ever deeply and sincerely over a time period, asked God, guidance, Jesus, or whatever or whomever you may view as a "higher power", to show you the truth of the matter in a way that you can perceive and understand? 

   This combo of prayer and listening is a great practice to get into, as it's a way to set aside self, and the ego's preconceptions and be humble and open to the fact that the personality self might not know what is or isn't true about the big mysteries. 

   The ego side of us, does not like to engage in this though.  Because it can sense when a belief system crash might happen, and these tend to be very painful to that human, largely body based side of us that we all have to varying degrees.

   Nonetheless, it just may be an important part of that spiritual growth process as a human.  Or why did even Jesus constantly pray both to know the will of God, and that the will of God should be done over his own little will and awareness? 

  He was humble enough to recognize that he probably didn't know it all and needed help and guidance from that which was more aware and expanded than his personality self. 

  When others sincerely do likewise and with positive, service oriented intentions/motivations, they will be led to expanded truths and perceptions.

  If a person is not practicing this daily, deeply, and sincerely, then they should probably not be giving spiritual advice to others.

http://benzagel.ca/community/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Benzagel-Egg-on-Head.jpg

1796- Point well made.

R

For the record, I tend to believe that our civilization exists on a knife edge. It really wouldn't take much to bring it all crashing down. A freak solar flare, an economic crash, a well-planned crippling cyberattack on electric or internet infrastructure, a pandemic, nuclear terrorist attack, any one of these could set us back a thousand years. There's definitely potential. I suppose if one keeps predicting this year or that year, eventually they'll get something right provided they live long enough.  :)

As per your post yesterday, Rondele: I have been considering that idea. I guess my fundamentalist wrong/right upbringing has me very reluctant to accept that there might not be THE ONE answer.

doodad- it's not so much that I don't accept the notion of an ultimate truth, it's that I doubt we'll be able to even define the term.  "God Is"?  "I am that I am"? Are those perhaps ultimate truths"?  And if they are, how do they translate to our day to day lives?  In other words, no matter how convinced we are that we have the Truth, what then? 

I could spend my entire life trying to grasp the concept of infinity, and end up going to my grave still not understanding.  But if I did that, I would regret lying on my death bed realizing how I wasted all my years in a utterly fruitless endeavor.

R 

Rondele, yes that's basically what I meant. I thought I should probably have added "THE ONE answer available to us in this lifetime" to my post. Ultimately, there is a truth and the puzzle pieces fit together. But when? Who knows? We work with what we have and are responsible for that, not?

Anondoraja: Sorry for the late response.

To tell you the truth, I don't know for certain how far that separated aspect thing goes.

I could come up with theories, but such theories might be wrong.

I will say this, there have been occasions while lying in bed I would see an image of myself looking at me, and as I did so I felt as if this other me was conscious. This other self would represent my shadow aspects.

Because of some of the ways in which I saw this other self, I believe it is possible that my Over Soul created such imagery in order to point out some of my shadow personality traits.

I'm basically a good hearted guy, but I can't say I'm perfect, so I have some imperfections to deal with. For example, sometimes I get annoyed with other drivers and have unloving thoughts towards them. I allow myself to be a grump in such cases. It serves no purpose for me to be a grump in such a way.  So my Over Soul might've shown me such a self so I might ask myself whether I want to allow such tendencies of mind to continue.

************

Regarding what Rondelle said about knowing about Disks and such, I believe spiritual growth is the most important thing, but sometimes it's easier to get to where you're trying to go if you have some understanding of where you are trying to go.



anondoraja wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 10:04am:

Recoverer , What about our separated  aspects of self ? ...Some sources say , we need to reincarnate again and again to retrieve the separated  aspects of our selves   .... These aspects are our own smaller versions from many lifetimes which are living in a narrower reality and sometimes in traumatic situations .... So in order to become a more whole being we need to reincarnate again and again to retrieve these smaller versions / aspects  of our selves .....What is Your opinion about this theory ?......

Justin:

I'm not certain, but I think 1796 directed that lady with egg image towards you.

I for one appreciate the time you took to write your posts.

Even if I didn't agree with them, the love in my heart wouldn't allow me to poke fun at you.  1796 and Roger (Rondelle) with his applause can justify such kindness lacking posts for as long as they want to, but eventually they will have to face the fact that such insensitivity will need to be dealt with and is contradictory to the spirit growth they sometimes speak of.

If one truly views others as precious divine beings, then one doesn't make jokes towards others just for the fun of it.  The part of self that takes pleasure in making such jokes includes some real non-Christ like darkness. Perhaps out of the interest of free will, God gave us the  possibility of choosing fallen angel like aspects of being. Perhaps it isn't wise to develop such aspects, not even just for the fun of it, such as when we poke fun at others.

First of all, that egg-faced woman really does NOT look like Justin...

Second of all, ... oh, never mind...  ::)

seagull wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 7:57pm:

First of all, that egg-faced woman really does NOT look like Justin... Second of all, ... oh, never mind...  ::)

  You're right, doesn't look like my usual self, but there's been a couple of Halloween's where it came a little closer. And one of those Halloween's, i must say, Justina was pretty hot. :o   ;) 

That is so funny I laughed like Porky Pig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_VVVTmiWFo

I think sometimes Justin looks like that after having an argument with his wife.  :)


seagull wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 7:57pm:

First of all, that egg-faced woman really does NOT look like Justin... Second of all, ... oh, never mind...  ::)

Those two reincarnation ideas are not mutually exclusive; they need not be one or the other, for they can agree and overlap quite comfortably, with one view including the other.

Pure reasoning is with known facts, sensible conjecture can use assumed facts. Sensible conjecture should follow the same guidelines of rational thinking as does reasoning with known facts.

It is common for people to see contradictions that aren’t there, and to misread correlations too, so I'll throw in some rules of logic. There are many more, of course, but these provide a good start:

Although causes produce correlations, and falsities contradict truth, and things connected coincide, it does not work in reverse. Correlation does not prove cause, and an apparent contradiction does not prove a falsity, and a coincidence does not prove a connection, for a bigger picture reveals more facts that may contain explanations.

Results outnumber causes, for many results come from every cause, so there are more correlating results than causes that produced them, and correlating results come both simultaneously and sequentially. The idea that a correlation proves or even indicates the cause is more likely to be incorrect than correct.

And the wider and more extensive a subject is, the more apparent contradictions and correlations it allows for.

And coincidence is a form of correlation but just an anecdotal one, and anecdotes do not prove trends, they only prove what is possible and marginal. Only weight of numbers proves trends.

In a boundaryless system the potential for correlations and apparent contradictions is infinite. Only in an enclosed system where we possess all the relevant facts do correlations make sense and contradictions disappear. 

***

When reasoning we need to do so by reality's rules and start off on the right foot. The best start is to differentiate between what you know and what you only think you know.

We should frequently prune back assumed knowledge until it becomes our practice to order our knowledge as the facts of reality are ordered.
 
Cause and effect, or the manifesting of facts has a direction of flow to it that logic must acknowledge. When we order our knowledge as the facts of reality are ordered, and layer our understanding as reality is layered, then our thinking and logic can proceed as reality proceeds.

Strictly speaking, experience is knowledge is proof. We only know what we’ve experienced, not what we think about what we’ve experienced. Experience only proves the experience, nothing more. 

Most strictly speaking, what we know is what we are, all else is conjecture. And the more subtle the subject matter – such as the spiritual/occult/metaphysical matters discussed on forums such as this one – then the more rational our thinking needs to be.

When we are learning to differentiate between what we know and what we only think we know, then it may seem that there will not be much knowledge left, but what we have left is worth more than what we had before. A grain of truth is worth more than thousands of grains of falsity. 

***

Insanity, by definition, is dissociation from reality. It varies by degrees within individuals. It doesn’t require much sanity or a great deal of intelligence to get by in the world. The insane can feel perfectly sane, and most do, and it is possible, even common, for people to be quite insane and yet reasonably functional in the world, and to go through life without themselves or anyone else knowing that their mind is mostly dissociated from reality.

A common insanity are delusions. Most delusions arise automatically between incompatible beliefs so as to reconcile them. The mind likes to be rounded, not uneven with protruding incompatible beliefs, so there automatically arises a vertical filler that rounds it out, and horizontal fillers to reconcile reality with the overriding beliefs. Another way of looking at it is that the mind does not like dissociated dots of belief that do not communicate, so it joins them with lines of explanation that enable internal communication. These automatically arising delusions enable the mind to cycle itself comfortably without having to stop at the gaps. The automatic arising of delusions as if by a life of their own, with no conscious effort from the individual means that to the individual they feel real and convincing, usually highly purposeful, and can often seem divinely inspired. Delusions cannot be tackled directly, but when their supportive structures are dismantled then they can disappear as naturally as they arose.

Among many points that challenge reincarnation, 2 strike me as most critical:
(1) After encountering what seemed like past life memories, Swedenborg learns from his guides that reincarnation is a misunderstanding of unconscious soul merger with discarnate spirits of which the astral  traveler is unaware.
(2) This fits well with an overlooked finding by Dr. Ian Stevenson in "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation," namely that some of the child cases recalled being a prior personality who was still alive prior to the child's birth.(3) Neutral experts on hypnotic regression reject claims that past life recall during such regressions is reliable.

[I will be posting here again after a long absence, but first must take my infected computer in for repairs.]

Hi Don :)


Berserk2 wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:48pm:

Among many points that challenge reincarnation, 2 strike me as most critical: (1) After encountering what seemed like past life memories, Swedenborg learns from his guides that reincarnation is a misunderstanding of unconscious soul merger with discarnate spirits of which the astral  traveler is unaware.

Has anyone else ever made a similar discovery that you know of?


Quote:

(2) This fits well with an overlooked finding by Dr. Ian Stevenson in "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation," namely that some of the child cases recalled being a prior personality who was still alive prior to the child's birth.

This may also lend credence to the simultaneous reincarnation theory.

Here are some conditions that I have observed and experienced.

1. When a person has certain types of ABI, or cerebral vascular damage as is caused by recurrent and progressive transient strokes in the same location, a funnel of absence is seen in the aura, that is, a funnel of no aura that goes down to its point at the place of the brain damage. Discarnate souls will frequently go into the funnel and fill it, thus feeding off desired energies from the living person and also enabling the living person's dissociated parts of his aura/personality to communicate across the gap via the occupying entity.

2. Something similar frequently occurs in people with significantly incompatible values of the same priority, when these values are not brought together in conflict which eventually resolves them, but are held apart by the individual, and from which follow subsequent incompatible thought-emotion-behavioural patterns. In such cases the two portions of the personality don't communicate well across the discrepancy. (It is something as if you hang a steel bar by a string from its sweet spot and strike it with a hammer then it will resonate, but if you sharply bend the bar in one place then straighten it again, then hang and strike it again then it will resonate discordantly due to the molecular structure changing where it was bent and the vibrations not flowing so smoothly through the whole bar anymore. Is more noticeable if bar is left bent.) Discarnate souls can enter the aura where the gap is between resonating portions, and can do so on either emotional or mental levels, and thus settle into any of the major centres and parasite off it.

3. Many illicit drugs such as methamphetamines/ice, crack in the US, and particularly cannabis have an astringent effect upon the soul's surrounding personality layers, that is, the mental-emotional layers and their aura, causing them to tighten and shrink which then exacerbates and widens any fracture lines that exist between discordant portions of the personality. Something like shrinking a shirt while wearing it will cause the buttons to strain and the front of the shirt to open. Discarnate souls frequently enter here too.


Depending on beliefs held by the individual and the individual's degree of rationality and correspondence with truth and what truth is, will depend their interpretation or not of the effects they experience within their mental-emotional nature as a result of the intrusive entity.

Some people certainly misconstrue the experience as a past life remembrance; and other people construe it into any manner of interpretations; and others, rational ones, accept it and deal with it as it effects them, without interpreting it through beliefs.

It is a two way street though; there is a perceived benefit to both parties, the afflicted and the afflicter, even if the benefit is a detrimental one.       

These conditions can be cured. The intrusive entity can be forced out and the aura can be healed. 

                                                                                                                                       Edited spelling & bar analogy   

REINCARNATION IS A LIE.

YOU HAVE ONLY ONE MORTAL LIFE

MAKE THE BEST OF IT, IT IS VERY SHORT