Just wondering. I couldn't find the retrieval where the fellow was saved from doing sit-ups for eternity. So, do we do yoga? Not so much a matter of how we appear to ourselves, as I assume we can take whatever shape or form we like best.

But, how real is it? People say their near death experiences are more real than everyday real.

Afterlife yoga might be really fun, like being able to be a contortionist at will.

What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?

Hi Seagull,

In my opinion, it all depends how connected you are to your human identity, body/vehicle.  I am beginning to feel and understand that our true spiritual essence is much more than we realize, and our temporary connection to a physical body, and the laws of the physical world so thoroughly removes us from the broader perspective of who and what we are, that we are somewhat stunned to realize the truth when we die. 

For many of us, I suspect, we hold onto the image of the human form.  This is why, I believe, that Focus 27 is not a permanent destination, but a belief system territory - a place for people to explore their nature as human, but with the enhanced abilities of being free of the physical world.  Yet our physical form and the animal part of our being is just a vehicle for our consciousness to express itself in. 

So yes, I believe in areas like Focus 27, you can exercise with your body, run like The Flash, fly like Superman, and do yoga.  Until, at some point you realize that your true nature is much more than the physical form of a human being or anything really related to our animal nature.

I think, though that we hold onto our human form and identity with it as long as it suits us.  The idea that physical life is really a virtual reality experience for our soul, in a vehicle (human body) is such a foreign idea, that it probably takes a varied amount of time to move on to other adventures.

My thoughts for what they are worth. 

Matthew

John 14:2

DocM,


DocM wrote on Sep 13^th, 2014 at 9:19am:

The idea that physical life is really a virtual reality experience for our soul, in a vehicle (human body) is such a foreign idea, that it probably takes a varied amount of time to move on to other adventures.

I see things pretty much the same way as you describe them.  Some folks get stuck in nearby virtual realities after leaving Here (dead) by virtue of hanging on to their physical world self image far too long.  Others catch on more quickly and change form fairly soon.  I suppose as long as we feel the need to maintain a Self identity we'll need SOME form to inhabit.

Bruce

All discernments, all energies and things below God, have form, quality and function.

Sounds like religious sects arguing dogma.

- Matt 22:23-32

BillB wrote on Nov 30^th, 2014 at 12:08pm:

Sounds like religious sects arguing dogma. - Matt 22:23-32

I don't think so. The differences are only slight and I expect are compatible if better defined and placed - like different perspectives on an object might when placed together comprise a more all-round view. On this thread, I see the posts so far as more like additions to each other than contradictions.

Besides, a contradiction does not always indicate falsity, for an apparent contradiction may be resolved by an additional fact bringing the two seemingly contradictory facts together. When presented with contradiction it is always worth considering a third unknown fact/s before assuming falsity or error, or in this case argument. And after that has been fairly done, then the contradiction may be assumed to indicate falsity, though depending, it may still not be certain.       

seagull wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?

I have tried to do many funny things. I suppose many of us have. One morning when I was younger, after a night flying around above the treetops, practicing settling down and taking off, and holding stationary in the air, I woke up and got out of bed still certain that I could fly. I got dressed and went to the backdoor step, looked up at the sky and with much sureness I willed myself to fly and jumped off the step, only to land on the ground with a sense of bodily heaviness. I tried to lift off again and again, but alas, my body was too heavy and I could not make it fly. At the time it was a great disappointment.   

So funny. It is a wonder that any of us know we are awake and in this "real" world at all.

Today I "woke up" officially for the day when a synchronous event happened. I was on another forum and noticed a song someone there enjoyed so they shared it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-eXYJnV3V4

Ziggy Marley, "Love is My Religion"

I listened to it a few times, appreciated it, started my day off nicely. Later, where I work, a delivery person stopped by. He and I were idly chatting while I signed for something. I mentioned the wind, the cold, take care, that kind of thing. He picked up on it and said, regarding the wind, "Yeah, kite flying weather," and I had that "funny feeling" I get sometimes.

You see, the song mentions kite flying, and I remember that when I listened to the song this morning I noticed the kite flying image, and it kind of stood out to me at that time. Ziggy Marley says, "I don't want to fight....let's go fly a kite." So, not everyone thinks about kite flying in December when it's really cold.

In fact, it's extremely rare that I hear anyone talk of flying kites at all.

So, on the surface, seems like nothing. But, it caused a powerful wave in my consciousness today. It's the little things, like that. You know what I mean.

The kite and string may be considered analogous to the astral body and silver cord, when the astral body is separated from the physical body during sleep.

Right, I like that. Thanks for reminding me.

Regarding the communication of minds, I think it is going on between nearly all people much of the time, to varying degrees, but people are not conscious of it. The majority of people most of the time are not aware of what they are thinking, and their thoughts are mostly spontaneous, passive, and running on automatic, without conscious direction, and with little attention, so they cannot know what thoughts are of their own making or coming in from others, or to what degree their minds are interacting with the minds of other people. The more continually conscious we are of our own presence within our self, and the more we know our self and our thoughts to be two different things, and the more deliberate we are in our own thinking, then the more aware we become of other's thoughts. But we can't discern other's thoughts if we are not conscious of our own.

Occasionally a person might notice a mental interaction with another and think its something unique, but they may have only noticed it because they were paying attention to their mental content at that time, or because it coincided markedly with environmental, behavioural and verbal incidences which drew their attention to it. The mind might have been almost continuously interacting with other people's minds all that same day but people are so unconscious of their self that they mostly don't pick up on their mental interactions with others.    

Thanks for opening sucha lovely thread. I'm new here and found it really interesting. The following is my idea of after life which I concluded after reading few novels.

Presently it appears to me that there are truly just three conceivable outcomes.

(a) One or a greater amount of the religions have took care of business.

(b) The mystic thought that life is only one stage in an unbounded learning knowledge is right. In this perspective we are all little starts of God on a journey to in the end find our direction home. This incorporates all life structures not simply human life.

(c) Nothing at all exists past the body. At the point when the body passes on its the end of that individual or creature.

I see it as b...true enough for me...I don't know what "God" might be, in order to describe such, but only that there is a connectedness and progression of and through life which has meaning and purpose beyond what we can fully understand. We get glimpses now and again, and it can be wonderful, of course.

For me, a better question is this: Do we perform work in the afterlife?  (1) Put differently, is this life our true career with the afterlife, being a glorified eternal nursing home of static bliss?  (2) Or is the afterlife our true career, for which this life is merely a school?  (2) is the biblical model.

Many see this as a key question for the legitimacy of reincarnation claims.  Why reincarnate if the afterlife provides all the needed educational and career opportunities? Thus, all the schooling and service opportunities illustrated by NDEs and OBE exploration are often seen as in  tension with the view that we simply make preparation for our next incarnation. 

I object to reincarnation for many reasons, but here are just 2: (1) After years of astral exploration, Swedenborg learns that reincarnation memories are an illusion created by astral mind mergers in which the memories of undetected merging entities seem like the projector's own.
(2) Dr. Ian Stevenson's celebrated study of children's past life recall reveals cases in which the alleged "prior personality" later proves to have been still alive after the baby's birth.  For me, the explanation of this in terms of timeless parallel incarnations severely begs the question and is unconvincing.   

Don- is there anything in the Bible that gives us even a clue as to what existence is like in the afterlife?  Jesus refers to many mansions, but what that means is hardly clear.  We are told what will happen if we go astray but not even the sketchiest ideas as to how we will live and what we will do.   

So why, assuming there is an afterlife, doesn't it seem a bit odd that we are left in the dark as to its nature? 

I'm omitting various NDE accounts, mainly because they are not credible owing to the infinite ways different people interpret what they see.  Reminds me of the woman who, while clinically dead, saw her beloved dog reclining on a chair, by a wood fire while gazing out the window enjoying
the bucolic scenery.  Hardly convincing.

Also channeled material that does describe afterlife existence can be so ludicrous  (the book "My Son and the Afterlife" by E. Medhus) that it makes me wonder if the whole thing is a giant fantasy.

R

Jesus reports that discarnate souls can have jurisdiction over 5 or 10 etheric cities, depending on their faithfulness in the little tasks here on earth (Luke 19:17-19).
Paul claims that we will have jurisdiction over the "cosmos" and "angels" (1 Corinthians 6:3-4)." 

Have you checked out the Youtube videos in which Raymond Moody shares the evidence for postmortem survival from "shared NDEs," including his own family's experience? 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjYjsh8i0w

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

Jesus reports that discarnate souls can have jurisdiction over 5 or 10 etheric cities, depending on their faithfulness in the little tasks here on earth (Luke 19:17-19). Paul claims that we will have jurisdiction over the "cosmos" and "angels" (1 Corinthians 6:3-4)."  Have you checked out the Youtube videos in which Raymond Moody shares the evidence for postmortem survival from "shared NDEs," including his own family's experience?  www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjYjsh8i0w

Don! The 3 biggest heavyweights in Afterlife explorations and Spirit Retrievals on the Internet are, not in any order, Bruce Moen, Robert Bruce, and William Buhlman...They have stated, categorically, over many years and personal posts, that they have no "Ingrained" and personal belief systems based on current mainstreamed spiritual and religious dogma! Especially Christian biblical, unfounded, and ungrounded made up tales, with no real or any proven evidence, of so called miracles as stated in their written ancient texts.      
    

http://youtu.be/bcOvWGuQTow

Instead of being met by deceased loved ones, some people go through an entirely different experience.  Jesus or God?  Who knows.  No doubt the message is more meaningful than the messenger.

R

Rondele,

Awesome testimony! The Gospel of John begins with a hymn, which Jesus is called the Word (Greek: "Logos").  Used in this philosophical way, "Logos" means "the rational self-expression of God" as opposed to God in God's unknowability.  This is more intellectually satisfying to me than later trinitarian formulations like "3 Persons in 1 and 1 in 3. The indescribable love and sense of being totally known radiating from the Being of Light is the knowable God, and hence, Christ, but is far from the totality of God. 

Note, too, that this sky diver's report that God is "10,000 times" brighter than the sun.  Eben Alexander uses the same comparison to portray his NDE encounter with God as Light.  In my view, this unimaginable brightness signifies the distinction between God and other light beings with which God is often confused in NDEs.    

Don- What strikes me is not only the complete absence of time in the afterlife but also the absence of logic.  We can't possibly understand what it's like nor can those who experience it possess the language to express the kind of knowledge and knowing they are given.

It is truly ineffable.  So when we read an NDE account I think we need to understand that what we read may be totally off the mark.  It is truly like looking through a glass darkly.

I'm personally not inclined to continue reading/researching the afterlife  (or more accurately what passes for the afterlife) just as I've dismissed reading various chanelled material.  In fact whether ES himself transmits an accurate picture is at best dubious.  The hell he described were false hells, designed to eventually motivate those attracted to such hells to ask for release.

But apparently the real hell is a state of complete nothingness.  The thought of such a state is incomprehensible.  No torture, no fires, no nothing.

I can only think of one adjective for that: terrifying.  That was the message the sky diver brought back that really has hit home with me.

It seems, from what I have read, that many people have experienced during nde's a place of "nothingness" which is actually not terrifying to them, but just a place of peace. Eventually, they appear to move on.

Don- What strikes me is not only the complete absence of time in the afterlife but also the absence of logic.  We can't possibly understand what it's like nor can those who experience it possess the language to express the kind of knowledge and knowing they are given.

Rondele, I have read hundreds of NDE accounts.  I think the problem is not "ineffability" but inarticulateness. In other words, NDErs experience not timelessness, but experiences of time that are relative to their spiritual plane, that is, they they have no sense of duration that compares with our sense of passing time.  So they have no sense of whether their astral  experience lasted 2 minutes or 2 years in earth time. They ask questions and the answers are instantaneous and thus seemingly simultaneous.  Yet the experience only makes sense in earthly terms as a sequential narration   

ES sheds light on this in his description of the astral  equvalent of time and space.  If ES wants to move from point A to visit someone at point B, the geography of the route remains the same.  But the sense of time it takes to cover the distance depends on how compatible the 2 parties are in their core desires or in the willingness of the other to accept a visit.  In other words, the experience of time is a function not of markers along the way, but of psychological compatibility.  Time, then, is relative to mental functions, not to space.  Remember, the very notion of experiencing color or movement already implies duration and hence some sense of time!

Consider Howard Storm's descent into a hellish foggy darkness, where he is tortured until he is rescued by Jesus.  Storm says his ordeal can't be measured in conventional time; it seemed to last for ages.  Yet he is clear that his total NDE experience is also sequential.   

Don- Look at it this way....suppose the sky diver had also been interested in the afterlife and had read many NDE accounts.

We'll never know for sure, but I'll bet that nothing could have prepared him for what he experienced.

And that's my point- entering the afterlife is not something that can be prepped for.  Remember how Bruce and many others claim we are met by our loved ones....if the sky diver had believed that and was expecting that, imagine how stunned he would have been.

As the old song goes, "what will be will be."  I'm content to wait and see what happens and in the meantime try to remember it's how we live before we die that is the best blueprint to follow.

R

Howard Storm wasn't what one would call a spiritual man before his NDE, but he wasn't a horrible person. That being the case, hopefully he didn't experience hell for ages because he didn't deserve it.

There are people who were probably just as [non]spiritual as Howard when they had an NDE, and they didn't have to experience a hell-like realm before experiencing something wonderful.

I believe that some NDErs serve as spiritual messangers. Different people need different kinds of messages because not everybody is open to the same kind of information. For example, what Howard says will be acceptable for probably a fair number of fundamentalists, but not what Nanci Dannision says.

Emanuel Swedenborg is similar to Howard. Not surprising considering when he lived. There probably weren't a lot of people around at the time who would be open to listening to what someone like Nanci has to say.

I don't mean to suggests that Nanci's interpretations of reality are completely accurate and balanced.

It is important to remember that people progress spiritually quickly only when they truly want to. Until this is so, they clings to fear-based beliefs or whatever quite rigidly, and you have to communicate with them accordingly.

recoverer wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

Howard Storm wasn't what one would call a spiritual man before his NDE, but he wasn't a horrible person. That being the case, hopefully he didn't experience hell for ages because he didn't deserve it. There are people who were probably just as [non]spiritual as Howard when they had an NDE, and they didn't have to experience a hell-like realm before experiencing something wonderful. I believe that some NDErs serve as spiritual messangers. Different people need different kinds of messages because not everybody is open to the same kind of information. For example, what Howard says will be acceptable for probably a fair number of fundamentalists, but not what Nanci Dannision says. Emanuel Swedenborg is similar to Howard. Not surprising considering when he lived. There probably weren't a lot of people around at the time who would be open to listening to what someone like Nanci has to say. I don't mean to suggests that Nanci's interpretations of reality are completely accurate and balanced. It is important to remember that people progress spiritually quickly only when they truly want to. Until this is so, they clings to fear-based beliefs or whatever quite rigidly, and you have to communicate with them accordingly.

I bought a kindle version of his book, "My Descent into Hell", where he never mentioned that "Jesus" showed him that there are many intelligent humanoid, and many non-humanoid beings on other planets in our galaxy!!???... So why did he he omit this ground-breaking, and starling revelation in his initial book about his NDE and meeting with "Jesus".????????....More Howard Storm added fantasies while he laughs all the way to the bank!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqJECcP04Ls ;  

Gman:

I watched a number of Howard Storm's videos, and I don't agree with what you say at all. He seems like a very humble and sincere man to me. The moments when he tears up seem genuine.

He does mention alien races in his book, I don't remember what term he used. Also, would you make a rule that after an NDER writes a book, at a later time he or she can only speak of things that were covered by the book?

The below site has some interesting NDEs. The experience called "A Terrifying Near Death Experience" is perhaps an example of how people experience what they need to experience during an NDE. This is what P.M.H. Atwater found out during her years of NDE research.

http://www.stevenraker.com/SpiriitualAfterlife.htm

For the NDE I named above, I don't believe this experiencer actually experienced the people he killed. Rather, a higher level of being, whether it be God, higher self or some other form of guidance, enabled him to experience what he needed to experience. Such guidance created a simulation.

In his book Howard wrote that he saw Jewish people exist smoke stacks after they were incenerated by the Nazis. They were greeted by Angels.  On a video he said that he doesn't know that he experienced an actual event, it could be that he was shown a simulation. Perhaps the same was true when he experienced a hell-like realm. Considering that NDErs experience hell-like realms in many ways, sometimes in ways that don't seem reasonable, perhaps some experience a simulation because this is what their guidance figured they needed to experience.

On the link I provided, the Peter N experience is interesting, even though it is overly wordy.  He had a very expansive experience without having to first meet any particular religious figure. 

The deceased Jewish people Howard Stern saw during his NDE didn't have to believe in Jesus in order to be greeted by angels.

Would a wise and loving being such as Jesus set things up so people have to believe in him in the way fundamentalists state, before they can ascend to a love-based way of being? Perhaps the important factor is the level of consciousness he represents. 

In deep meditation it becomes very clear that the basis of our being is love. It is our human nature in this physical world that causes us to see things differently sometimes. According to the pope if someone insults his mother they must expect to be punched as a natural reaction -- not that the pope condones violence, but he states the obvious, that people are not going to think rationally but they will have a knee-jerk reaction to someone insulting their religion.

But, why? What's so sacred about our personal beliefs? Where is the line drawn in the sand? There is no line, is there?

Basically, that is saying that emotional reactions rule the day. But, they don't have to, and they don't always do so. It has been shown to me in a very personal way that I'm not the one directing the show, no matter how up close and personal the view, or what I "feel" at the time.

My problem with most of attempts to answer the question, "Do we work in the Afterlife?, is that almost none of those answers are based on the writer's own direct experience. It's true that a direct experiencer has to interpret the meaning of their experiences through the filters of their biases, beliefs, expectations.  It is also true that any so called expert, myself included, must do exactly the same thing.  And then we add a second layer of interpretation of our own biases, beliefs, etc.on top of the expert's biased interpretation.  Then we attempt to answer such questions through two layers of interpretation.

I've always had great difficulty accepting someone elses version of the truth.  I much prefer my own direct experience as the basis of discovery and exploration.  If there is any value in reading the opinions of experts, for me it is in comparing my direct experience to those opinions.  Much can be learned by reading how others describe what they've discovered and learned through their direct experience.  I am an extremely lucky guy in that I've had the privilege to observe hundreds of  people's describe their experiences exploring our afterlife in workshops I teach.  All of that experience presents a growing, coherent understanding of our afterlife.

As to the question of working in the afterlife my experience suggests it depends on where in the Afterlife you are talking about.  There are places (my opinion and that of fellow explorers) where working in the classical, physical world sense exists.  These places are typically in the Belief Systems Territories in which the inhabitants believe such work is required.  In other places there is no motivation to work in the classical sense.

There are places (again, my and other explorers opinions) where the reasons for working in the classical sense do not exist.  In the physical world we work, basically, for food, shelter, clothing and entertainment.  But what if where you are living in the Afterlife all those basic needs, and any other materialistic thing you desire, are provided by the simple act of thinking them into being?  What then can be the motivation for "working" in a place like that?

Work can be defined as trading your time for something of value.  If all your traditional "things of value" (food, shelter, clothing, etc.) are provided without working for them you are going to have a lot of time to do something else.  So, what will you do to spend your time?

Many people I've encountered who live in these afterlife places spend their time learning, exploring, discovering, teaching . . .  Many decide to spend at least some of their time helping others. 

So, how do you think you'd spend your time in circumstances like those.

Bruce

The truest work, on a soul level, for most people, is such efforts as pursuit of knowledge and realisation of self and truth, the effort to obtain accurate perspective, understanding of and attunement with real love, providing service to others, alleviating suffering...  I expect those who’s effort is along such lines in this life will likely continue such effort in the next life phase. Most are working towards realisation of self anyway, directly and indirectly through mediums of various sorts such as relationships and interactions, circumstances and situations, dilemmas, problem solving and decisions, occupations, hobbies, interests, and observations. However which-way we are progressing/working, most of us probably keep up a related approach in the next life, unless we have a change of attitude and heart before death.    

Re:

Bruce Moen wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

... It's true that a direct experiencer has to interpret the meaning of their experiences through the filters of their biases, beliefs, expectations. ...

Yes, it is true that biases, beliefs, expectations, and preferences can get in the way, obstruct vision and understanding. But it doesn’t have to be that way. The truth is not out of bounds to human perception.  It is possible to see things as they are, if one knows how, even if only temporarily. And if temporary, to retain the memory of what is seen, in spite of the preferences within our personality. It requires our understanding of honesty, honesty being the ability to see things as they are, and how honesty is acquired through valuing truth above all else, whatever truth may be, and our obtaining of honesty to a certain degree, along with the ability to some extent to recognise our own personal preferences and how they obstruct vision and understanding, so that we can set them aside and clear our vision and make our self receptive to truth.  Even then it cannot be done very well on our own, but only through coordination with our oversoul (disk?), or by prayer. But seeing things as they are can certainly be done. Truth is accessible.

crossbow

It's kinda funny, but my original question can be interpreted in different ways....

Do we "work-out" in the afterlife? As in exercise, physical activities of that sort...
Do we "work" out in the afterlife? As in, work, productive activities, etc.
Do we "work out" in the afterlife? As in, all's well that ends well, etc.

It is interesting to see the spin on the question.

As for me, I can only imagine the possibilities, but there would be many, for learning, for pleasure, and for being of service. If we can be in more than one "place" at one time, the possibilities are truly incredible. I find that my life is of value here, and it will most likely be of value there.

I feel that there are places that I know that are created there and exist for me, which I visit in dreams and in my imagination. For instance, there is a replica of a restaurant in which I used to work which exists "out there" -- I have visited it in dreams. These visits trigger lucidity for me because I absolutely remember when it happens that I don't work there anymore, so I am fascinated with its similarities and its differences when I begin to notice I am dreaming.

Places which I have experienced during meditation I assume remain. They are stored in my memory and I believe I can revisit them later. I certainly hope to revisit some states of love and bliss which I have experienced there. Of course, that is possible now.

I would like to be welcomed something like this when I arrive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10bIbch7fYg

wow, a concert like that would be quite a welcome.

Re. Seagull said, "I feel that there are places that I know that are created there and exist for me, which I visit in dreams and in my imagination. For instance, there is a replica of a restaurant in which I used to work which exists "out there" -- I have visited it in dreams. These visits trigger lucidity for me because I absolutely remember when it happens that I don't work there anymore, so I am fascinated with its similarities and its differences when I begin to notice I am dreaming."

Yes, I expect the restaurant is real, and changing bit by bit as people add to it and take away from it. Perhaps next time you might take note of some of the changes and of some of the staff who are working there, then go and visit it in daily life. You might see some similarities.   



Regarding work and jobs in the afterlife:

I worked in a terminal hospice for many years in which there was a turnover rate of several patients per day. One particular young man was mostly paralysed and wheelchair bound when I met him through to his death a few months later, due to cancer having invaded his spine. I will call him Daniel.

During those years I was learning to condense and concentrate my consciousness, to heighten it, and extend it both outward, and within and upward, and to leave my body in both sleep and meditation. I would occasionally go to the hospice when I was off duty, often at night, to observe the goings-on behind the physical scenes. One night while I was examining a sleeping patient I was surprised to see Daniel walk into the room. Daniel had died a couple of weeks prior. He was equally surprised to see me. We both briefly examined each other. He was standing there with two strong legs, looking most fit and healthy, and I was there in my sleep body and obviously awake. I asked him what he was doing here, and he explained that as a previous patient who had been through the death process here that he had been given a temporary job visiting sleeping patients and reassuring them that there is nothing to fear and all works out well. He told me the job will only last a few weeks and then he will be moving on. We exchanged some other details, wished each other well, then we each went our way.         

crossbow