Hey everyone,

I'd like to discuss distressing NDEs, or NDEs that take a darker turn than the blissful majority in the form of voids or hellish enviornments. Research into these darker NDEs has been incredibly limited compared to their nicer counterparts for a variety of reasons, from a lack of reporting to a general disinterest by researchers. What do you all think causes these NDEs to occur? The individual's morality can't really be counted as a causal factor, since several of them have been reported by normal people that haven't done anything to deserve such an occurrence, while there are blissful reports from criminals. It could be the manifestations of the person's fear, but this doesn't make much sense when you consider most NDEs don't involve this notion of conquering certain fears before the bliss. I hope to hear your opinions on this phenomena and possible explanations.

How many states of mind do people have while incarnate in a living body?  Some are disturbed and angry, some desolate, some content.  How many NDEs are possible then, when the body is suspended?  Many. 
And it is a tough picture to piece together because outwardly someone may appear content or happy, yet their inner state may be in despair or turmoil. 

My own opinion is that we experience what we are in tune with at the time, and what best suits our deepest convictions and beliefs.  This doesn't mean that those who have a negative NDE or afterlife experience are necessarily in an eternal state of angst.  Only that may be there initial experience until they are ready for something else. 

But why should we all have the same uniform afterlife experience when we have a myriad of emotional experiences while in a body in the physical world?

M

In addition to Doc's comments some people have suggested that a 'negative' NDE experience may be essentially an incomplete one; some 'positive' experiences have started in a dark state but lead on to some kind of resolution or insightful experience after time. Some negative NDE experiences have been attributed to certain medicines/drugs, such as those involved in birthing, and may not be NDEs in the strictest sense. A perplexing issue all the same.

You both raise good points, and I would like to propose the idea that made the most sense to me. In regards to mindset and fear levels at the time of death, I can certainly see how this could initially cause one to slip into some of the more frightening realms. Heisenburg, I'm glad you brought up the part about the various drugs and their effect on NDEs, because a portion of the void NDEs occurred while the individual was being given nitrous oxide during childbirth. I wouldn't go so far as to explain this phenomena entirely as a result of that, but I feel that certain drugs (anesthesia, nitrous oxide, ketamine)  can cause alterations in initial consciousness after bodily departure, even if said departure is merely temporary. Another problem one faces with these cases is the perspective the individuals have about the events, such as the case of inverted NDEs, where the individual experiences characteristics of a blissful NDE (beings of light, life review, etc) and regard them as terrifying. Overall, there needs to be more research done into these cases.

I've also read several interesting theories where these NDEs occur due to the individual's interaction with archetypal fears within the collective unconcious proposed by Jung.

'I've also read several interesting theories where these NDEs occur due to the individual's interaction with archetypal fears within the collective unconcious proposed by Jung'.

A kind of unplanned trip to a fear-based group belief territory in Monroe terms!

For me, this issue requires an initial identification of assumptions, their validity, and how they can be tested.
For example, consider the assumpton that dark NDEs do not point to hellish realms populated by real discarnate spirits, but rather are a psychic projection based on fears and prior expectations.  Then consider Howard Storm's initially hellish NDE. 

(1) He is an atheist who doesn't believe in God, let alone Hell.
(2) In the hospital, his astral self hears voices, saying, "Come with us."  He thinks this voice comes from a well-intentioned source that is trying to help him in his disorientation.  So his ensuing hellish experience takes him by surprise and is contrary to his beliefs and expectations.  He is not reacting to fear.
(3) His exoerience of having his spirit body torn apart after a struggle has precedent in other hellish NDEs, but Storm does not know about such precedent. 
(4) His experience of Christ coming to the rescue when he finally and reluctantly prays for His help also finds precedent in hellish NDEs. 

Now if (1-(4) do not signify real discarnate spirits trapped in a real hellish plane, then why trust any contacts with discarnate family members in NDEs?

















 

You raise a good point, and I agree that these experiences are more than the psychic projections of the individual (however I do feel that these, as well as the fears held within a sort of collective unconscious like I mentioned in an earlier post, help to build the experience). I feel that these hellish realms are real, but I'm unsure as to why this occurs to ordinary people and how long people generally stay stuck. As you mentioned, Storm was lured into one of these realms and able to escape through prayer, which gives us indications as to how people can end up here and, more importantly, a method of how to get out. That's why I feel it is very important to study these cases of dNDEs; they give us a fuller view of the afterlife and allow us to prepare accordingly for any complication that may occur during the transitioning process.

Berserk2 wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2014 at 8:54pm:

For me, this issue requires an initial identification of assumptions, their validity, and how they can be tested. For example, consider the assumpton that dark NDEs do not point to hellish realms populated by real discarnate spirits, but rather are a psychic projection based on fears and prior expectations.  Then consider Howard Storm's initially hellish NDE.  (1) He is an atheist who doesn't believe in God, let alone Hell. (2) In the hospital, his astral self hears voices, saying, "Come with us."  He thinks this voice comes from a well-intentioned source that is trying to help him in his disorientation.  So his ensuing hellish experience takes him by surprise and is contrary to his beliefs and expectations.  He is not reacting to fear. (3) His exoerience of having his spirit body torn apart after a struggle has precedent in other hellish NDEs, but Storm does not know about such precedent.  (4) His experience of Christ coming to the rescue when he finally and reluctantly prays for His help also finds precedent in hellish NDEs.  Now if (1-(4) do not signify real discarnate spirits trapped in a real hellish plane, then why trust any contacts with discarnate family members in NDEs?

That's a great way of putting it!


heisenberg69 wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2014 at 12:15pm:

'I've also read several interesting theories where these NDEs occur due to the individual's interaction with archetypal fears within the collective unconcious proposed by Jung'. A kind of unplanned trip to a fear-based group belief territory in Monroe terms!

1, Are we entitled to reject as mere thought forms from Super-ESP those beings who repulse us with their evil and accept loving NDE family reunions?
2. Are evil people allowed to continue their evil ways after death?
3. Is Swedenborg right that hellish planes governed by the principle like attracts like?  are
4. Are NDE visits to hellish planes merely a warning to make better choices to shape our astral energetic makeup for higher planes?  

Thought provoking questions, Don.

The personality fills up by the shortest and most economical route between its most distant existant opposing points. That is, between its most distant and diverse values and ideals in both their positive and negative form (values/ideals for and against things). So that that part or range of the personality that lies between these points exists in potential, even though it may not have been consciously practiced or triggered yet, and even though the individual may deny to themselves and others that such personality characteristics exist within their self. This is how we can know what another person will most likely think even long before they have thought it, and what they will most likely do before they do it, under given circumstances, and even though they think they would do something else, and this is because it exists on the gradient or spectrum between their opposing ideals. The opposing values/ideals form the periphery of the personality spread, with each pair of opposing points having a line of potential running between them through the centre of the spread. These lines of potential also run diagonally, not through the centre but between any two points on the periphery of the personality. And at the places where any of these lines cross and intersect with each other are places of high potency. For each point of high potency, be it the centre or anywhere else, there are environmental triggers or circumstances that would accommodate or draw forth the acting out of that personality quality.

A person may have never gone to a place/region in their personality, not in thought or behaviour, and may deny it exists, but as that region is within the range between their values and ideals then it does exist, like the numbers exist that lie between any two numbers, and like an island is shaped by its surrounding coast and all its inland areas exist because of the shape of its coast.

This is relevant not just to how a person will think and behave in life and to what sort of situations they gravitate to and how they behave there, but also to their general atmosphere of mind, what they sympathise with and discord with, and how and what they fear, what they dread, like and dislike, want and not want, what their reflexes of thought and emotion are, and this is in life and in death, for after they drop the physical body they still have their emotional and mental bodies in which they think and feel, and which gravitate towards particular circumstances, just like in physical life.

crossbow   

The question of why do some people have darker NDEs seems to me to parallel the question as to why do some people have horrific nightmares.  There may be nothing in their makeup or in their actions that account for why they wake up temporarily terrified by a nightmare that, upon examination when awake, they can find nothing that could account for what they dreamed.

Howard Storm is an example of someone whose life, prior to his NDE, probably did account for his horrifying NDE.  In other words, he was "scared straight" and in such case the NDE was probably constructed to motivate him to change his ways.  And it certainly did!

But then we have Swedenborg, who tells we always end up after death in the place which represents our real love, no matter how we may behave while alive.  And moreover, that real love is our core self which ES seems to indicate is as inviolate as our DNA. 

That, by the way, is one of my sticking points with ES.  He offers little hope of our being able to change that which we truly love.  Yes, we can alter our behavior and we can live a life devoted to serving others, all the while fighting or suppressing urges that would lead us in a whole other direction.

Stripped down to the core essence of who we really are might explain why some people experience unsettling NDEs.

Maybe Storm is still the person he was before the NDE, the only difference being that he suppresses those past urges and has become a man of the cloth out of fear rather than love?

Of course we will never know.  As for me, I prefer to think that grace trumps karma (i.e. bad behavior) regardless of what ES has written.  Otherwise we are doomed for the sin of being born with innate "loves" over which we have no control to change. 

I guess the question is, can grace not only trump bad behavior, but can it also change those innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control?  And if it can, doesn't that also mean it can change the core essence of our being?

Can it change evil into good?  At least in Scott Peck's view, genuinely evil people really do exist.

R

Rondelle said: "Howard Storm is an example of someone whose life, prior to his NDE, probably did account for his horrifying NDE.  In other words, he was "scared straight" and in such case the NDE was probably constructed to motivate him to change his ways.  And it certainly did!"

Recoverer responds: "Perhaps related to what Roger says above, P.M.H. Atwater has researched more than 3,000 NDEs including many negative NDEs and said that everybody experiences what they need to experience, including people who have negative NDEs. Different strokes for different folks? In many cases "constructed" could be a key word.

Albert

rondele wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 9:35am:

(1) The question of why do some people have darker NDEs seems to me to parallel the question as to why do some people have horrific nightmares.  There may be nothing in their makeup or in their actions that account for why they wake up temporarily terrified by a nightmare that, upon examination when awake, they can find nothing that could account for what they dreamed. ...... (2) I guess the question is, can grace not only trump bad behavior, but can it also change those innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control?  And if it can, doesn't that also mean it can change the core essence of our being? R

1. Yes, I am not suggesting the qualities of NDEs are dictated by the personality, only that the personality in its active and dormant parts is wider than is generally realised and that it is relevant to most situations in which we find ourselves.  

2. To that question I say yes, certainly. If we present our self as we are, honestly and transparently before God, and hand over our struggles/sins to Him, which is repentance, then the light of grace which is the light of God can shine unobstructed through our self and change for the better results.  

Try it and see for your self.    

By the way, all proper prayer begins this way, that is, with repentance.
Otherwise it is like being inside your house and trying to converse with God who is outside your house and not letting him in. He must be let in and shown all the rooms and hidden things. When he is inside and has been shown all, then prayer, which is communion with God, can take place and his light can do its work and clean the house.   

We have an interpreter here, there and everywhere that we experience ourselves as individuals. We are like children with imaginations that run away with us -- take a walk on the wild side/there's no place like home.

Apparently, later, we look back on all of "this" as great fun. But, it isn't real -- it's a story we create about ourselves.

If each one of us is part of the whole with greater understanding as we move along in our "dream" of uniqueness and physicality toward our actual selves, which are spiritual, immortal beings, it would be expected that we would partake of "pleasant" and "unpleasant" experiences along the way.

Eventually, I assume all spirits recognize themselves in the "other" and thereby learn/know what is and is not real.

Dr. Maurice Rawlings id uniquely qualified to report on NDEs because he is a cardiologist routinely involved in resuscitation efforts. From his observations, he estimates that about 50% of NDEs are hellish. Most NDE researchers deem that estimate far too high, but Rawlings counters this rebuttal with 2 points:
(1) Unlike most NDE researchers, he is actually present at the NDEs he describes and he says the most NDErs suppress the memories of their hellish NDEs after experiencing and  reporting them to him. The trauma of finding oneself in Hell is just to great to survive in conscious memory for many.

(2) He also plausibly notes that being in Hell is too embarrassing or too unpleasant for many NDErs to share.  We don't want others to think we are Hell-worthy! 

I'm confident that Rawlings is at least correct in claiming that hellish NDEs are far more common than we realize.

Btw, Roger, ES does  recognize astral soul retrievals from Hell, just not in his major works.

Rawlings observations may be correct that hellish NDE are more common than what other researchers may think. 

The question that comes to mind is the state of mind various people are in immediately before their NDE?  Does being in a state of fear or a state of acceptance make any difference in what one may experience?

Thoughts?

btw Don, I have an off topic question for you and sent you a PM.

Interestingly other researchers seem quite critical of Rawling's work. Past executive director of IANDS Nancy Bush has written a book about distressing NDEs called Dancing Past the Dark. From her website (http://www.dancingpastthedark.com/about/) :

'... a great many people object strenuously to that point of view and discount his work because of it. The real problem underlying the Rawlings material, however, is not theological. The problem is, as his fellow cardiologist (and fellow evangelical Christian) Michael Sabom pointed out repeatedly, a distortion of data.

A reading of any of Rawlings’ books will immediately give the impression that he resuscitated countless near-death experiencers—he himself said that his first book summarized “several hundred” cases—and heard their testimonies immediately, roughly half of them “hellish.” Sabom’s painstaking investigation of Rawlings’ data turned up quite a different picture.

Despite what was reported in Beyond Death’s Door, those “several hundred” cases “were represented by only 21 cases of ‘heavenly NDEs and 12 ‘hellish’ NDEs. Many of these were clearly not from Rawlings’ own practice, having been excerpted from other published sources. Others were simply left unidentified.”

The same situation presented with To Hell and Back, Rawlings’ second book. In a 1996 review in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, Sabom noted that of the 32 cases Rawlings claimed, twenty “were clearly lifted and referenced from other sources, and six were personally acquired examples used in his previous books. The remaining six NDEs appear to be new, previously unpublished accounts obtained from his own experience. However, two of these six cases were mentioned only in passing and never described.”

In other words, by reusing previous accounts and padding from other sources, Rawlings was able to give the impression of a greater number of distressing NDEs than he actually had. Further, his books leave one with the impression that many, many more distressing NDEs would be revealed if only people were interviewed immediately upon resuscitation. Sabom’s research indicated that conclusion also not to be supported by the data.'

On the face of it it seems Rawlings theological leanings encouraged him to maximise the number of 'hellish' experiences.From my perspective this unnecessarily increases fear about death and the dying process..

I do believe there is a lot of fear imbued in these NDEs.  I read one account by Rawlings where he was giving CPR and for a brief moment the patient regained consciousness only to say "don't stop! don't stop!  I am in Hell!  Pray for me!"  Only with a prayer did the patient calm down and "come back to his body." It appears that the patients identified Hell as a classic fire and brimstone place, and that the name of Jesus needed to be invoked on more than one occasion. 

Inherent in these NDEs is the notion that a normal, moral person is thrust, against their will into a hellish realm in some kind of mistaken judgement.  Most other NDE researchers and mystics, including ES do not support this view. 

I wonder what the belief systems of the NDErs played in terms of finding themselves in a negative NDE?  Why would one regain consciousness and demand a prayer for them, invoking Jesus's name, if the person did not expect that prior to the NDE. 

I have been present myself at many "codes" and resuscitation efforts early in my training (my medicine residency).   I have been present with at least 30 patients who were clinically dead and then resuscitated.  None made mention of a hellish NDE, though admittedly, none were asking them what it was like on the other side. 


M

It would also be interesting to look at the near-death experiences of the two thirds of the world's population who don't come from a Christian tradition.

Heis,

I actually came across an accounting of NDEs from an Asian culture in which people mentioned the seeing the gods of their pantheon, but out of many cited cases, there were no reports of experiences with a foreign religion.  Don has cited the example given by Atwater of a Jewish woman who saw Jesus in her NDE and said something like "this can't be, I don't believe in you."  But that woman obviously knew who JC was, and what he stood for.  I will try to dig this up.  This East Asian culture had no unexpected visits to Jewish, Muslim or Christian heavens or deities.  Rather, it was a Thai culture where the NDErs encountered Yama, lord of the dead and his servants or minions called Yamatoots or Yamaduts.  This deity was lord of the underworld in opposition to Buddha.  Going over this series of Thai NDEs; in none of them did the people encounter any Western religious figures or symbols. 

In some ways, this goes along with the NDE of an artist, Mellen-Thomas Beneict, who has also been mentioned on this forum, who saw a being of light, which seemed to morph into various deities including JC, Buddha and others.  Belief and education = expectation has a lot to do with how our mind perceives things on the other side.

This doesn't mean, (IMHO) that there is no ultimate truth or enlightenment.  Only that we initially run our experience through our perceptual belief system and try to make sense of things.  If we approach things with an open mind, perhaps it would lead to the easiest transition.

M

It would be equally interesting to know (if possible)  how many people who were clinically dead, then  resuscitated, but have no afterlife experience whatsoever, or at least none that they can recall.

We tend to only hear about those who have experiences, pleasant or otherwise.

Kind of reminds me of two medical procedures I had, one was with a mild twilight anesthesia and the other a stronger variety because of the length of the procedure. 

While under the first one, I had vivid dreams so real that when I awoke I was momentarily convinced they really occurred.  As far as the second, I had zero recollection of anything.

So maybe the afterlife experiences that are reported depend on how "dead" they really were before being revived.

R

That is interesting, Roger,

Controlled experiments have shown that amnesia can be induced by stimulation of gaba receptors in the brain by agents such as Versed (midazolam) and other medicines.  So many types of anesthesia prevent the formation of short term memory in the physical plane.  The issue arises then, as to what we can remember if it occurs when our heart is stopped, and what the mechanism of memory is, when separate from the brain and body. 

I don't draw any firm conclusions as yet about why we remember certain experiences and not others.  Some may be mundane earthly or neurological reasons, and some reasons may be emotional or spiritual.

Yes, isn't it said that some people believe that the dead "sleep" or don't "rise" until "judgement day" or stay in some state of unconsciousness that others must wake them from? A relative of mine who practices a form of buddhism has only recently come around to the scientific evidence of an afterlife after firmly telling me that she believed that a person stayed in a kind of sleep between lives. It is also said that some people want that kind of rest in the afterlife, and it is given to them. I can only suppose that our experiences in the afterlife vary considerably, depending on our motivations before, during and after, the helpers we acquire, and the "history" we may have in this life, other lives, or the places in the afterlife we may have already visited. Also, it seems that it takes "time" to learn how to navigate, how to find your way around.

Re: hell
No one deserves to be in "hell" no matter what they do. We are all "victims" of ignorance in the physical world. It takes a different state of consciousness to achieve a different result, always.

To me, that is the most important thing I have learned in the last 10 years, perhaps ever. Change your state of consciousness and you change your outer circumstances too.  There is really no "inner" and "outer" because it is all of one piece.

with love, s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-KAvPbO8JY

seagull wrote on Jul 31^st, 2014 at 8:02am:

Re: hell No one deserves to be in "hell" no matter what they do. We are all "victims" of ignorance in the physical world. It takes a different state of consciousness to achieve a different result, always. To me, that is the most important thing I have learned in the last 10 years, perhaps ever. Change your state of consciousness and you change your outer circumstances too.  There is really no "inner" and "outer" because it is all of one piece. with love, s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-KAvPbO8JY

I agree with you Seagull. Bad or even evil actions are the result of a particular state of consciousness i.e spiritual ignorance. I balk at the idea that people may be considered to have an evil inner self- when the state of consciousness evolves, as if by magic, so do the actions.

rondele wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 9:35am:

Of course we will never know.  As for me, I prefer to think that grace trumps karma (i.e. bad behavior) regardless of what ES has written.  Otherwise we are doomed for the sin of being born with innate "loves" over which we have no control to change.  I guess the question is, can grace not only trump bad behavior, but can it also change those innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control?  And if it can, doesn't that also mean it can change the core essence of our being?

According to my understanding of the Buddhist worldview and basic psychology, these "innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control" are actually nothing more than conditioned behaviors that can be erased and rewritten with right effort and right view, which includes adopting an effective spiritual practice and letting go of the attachments and delusions of the ego. 

The main idea behind Karma the way the Buddha taught it is that although past actions are like seeds which are eventually sown into the experience of the individual, bearing fruit corresponding to the nature of the seed, every person has the freedom in the present moment to sow new karmic seeds, to change past habitual tendencies and create new wholesome thoughts and actions born from wholesome intentions which will lead to wholesome states. 

We are not powerless to change unwholesome patterns of thought and action.  Otherwise the concepts of free will and choice would be invalid.

rondele wrote on Jul 29^th, 2014 at 8:24pm:

It would be equally interesting to know (if possible)  how many people who were clinically dead, then  resuscitated, but have no afterlife experience whatsoever, or at least none that they can recall.

This may not be helpful since I wasn't in a hospital when I died, but I apparently had convulsions, foamed at the mouth, turned blue, and stopped breathing. My friends used CPR to revive me. I have no recollection of any sort of NDE. I was just awake, then not, then awake again. It was a drug overdose. My heart rate was over 300 bpm when it was checked at the hospital after being taken in by ambulance.

I watched Howard Storm's NDE account, and what occurs to me is that Howard was in a hospital and he was yelling and swearing, putting out strong, negative energy. If there's any place that disturbed souls congregate to wait for people to die, it would obviously be a hospital. So that could be why he was attacked.

If you want to go the other route and suggest that our own thoughts and fears inform or create our NDE, we have to take into account that Storm was a Christian as a child. He had attended church for some time before rejecting it. So it's not as if he hadn't heard all the threats of hell and the stories of demons. As much as he wanted to deny all that and be an atheist, he knew, like we all do, that there's a possibility that the Christians have it right and that he may be punished in the afterlife. Regardless of what your conscious mind believes is true, your subconscious never forgets what you learned in church.

I do find this to be a fascinating account though. It's disturbing for me to hear these sorts of accounts because I operate a Wicca website. So if anyone is going to hell, it's probably me.

I apologize if I'm repeating anything that was already stated here. I didn't quite get a chance to read the entire thread.

If we remove any type of thinking which implies judgement or morality from possibility, an experience of "hell" or, to put it more blandly, of a "darker" kind, would be decidedly unpleasant to our human senses and emotions but not evil or wrong. In a place of "no time" this might appear to our limited/inexperienced/innocent personalities to be inescapable. Even if it seems silly to be expressed this way, to be taught as a human to be able to go to your "happy place" -- in other words, to train the mind -- might come in handy someday.